CALIFORNIA FIRES

[stilllearning]

Just wondering if some Ppruners are up to how the crews are doing in California.
How many duty hours are they doing? How many hours flown? How are they rostering to cope with fatigue? How many of them are night dropping and how are they handling duty hours and safety??
I guess thay are doing a job worth to know about ....
thanks in advance and fly safe

[SASless]

Gordy who attends these parts would be an excellent source of information for you.....send him a PM.

[John Eacott]

This one's worth watching all the way through :ok::cool:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CbWkfCA9tc

[Fareastdriver]

Nice one!!!!!!

[Carbon Bootprint]

Fantastic video, John. A lot of respect for those guys! :ok:

[twinstar_ca]

Outstanding is correct!! Well done to all.... :D:ok:

[Vertical Freedom]

Great work!

[heli kiwi]

Definitely Outstanding. 👍👍

[haihio]

Great video and good job !
what aircraft are they flying ?

[Karearea]

Finely done.

[Evil Twin]

Well done guys, great job

[skadi]

Great video and good job !
what aircraft are they flying ?

AW139

skadi

[Gordy]

I was on the Camp fire day 1, I have 4 of my aircraft on it now. No night drops, and fatigue is not an issue as we are down to 10 hour days due to lack of daylight---we normally do 14 hour days. Most days have been no fly days due to visibility anyway.

Command and control was a mess on day 1 & 2 as it moved so fast and then in came CHP and decided to freelance rescues with out talking to Air Attack supervisor....a lot of political wrangling going on.... More to follow....

[farmpilot]

Wow, really nicely done.

[RVDT]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/660x387/statler_and_waldorf_footer_74fecf50b3e1ed114f4368c1e80191dc0 ee351e0.jpg

Waldorf and Statdtler moment -

No different to what we used to do more than 30 years ago!

More than likely with an old Jetbanger or AStar as well which would be more capable as at least you might be able to land in more places.

Can't remember blowing so much smoke up each other either - but hey that's progress or maybe a cultural thing!

[stilllearning]

Great job and outstanding CRM !!!! Good to know about how it is going. Also would be great to share lessons learnt.
Thanks Jonh & Gordy

[Carbon Bootprint]

AW139
Correct. Some more info and background here (https://www.lafd.org/about/special-operations/air-operations).

Completely agree with comment about excellent CRM. Good ground comms also. :D

[SASless]

The old question of Bucket or Belly Tank continues as both systems mature and improve.

Used to be Belly Tanks were used for brush fires and Buckets for Forest Fires.

Then....the Greeners in California who worry about some fish while the whole forest around them is burning down...got into the act.

Their worry....some fire retardant left in on the insides of the bucket might contaminate a bit of water!

Like the mud slides, ash, and fallen timber clogging the very same streams would not create a problem that far transcends any possible contamination done by a bucket.


https://www.helicoptersmagazine.com/procedures/buckets-or-belly-tanks-111


Forest practices (or the lack of it )also plays a huge role in these fires.

Building Codes that allow for wood shingle roofing and brush/trees being left to grow right up against dwellings and other structures also causes a problem.

Of course....the Media and others shall invariably blame Climate Change for these calamities....rather than fairly discuss ALL the issues that are a factor.

[malabo]

Maybe its an AW139 thing, wide-body, piss-poor utility visibility, and a couple of guys obviously out of their element in confined/unprepared sites. Compensated for by overactive, though productive, CRM. A single-pilot bush guy with an AStar would just have gone in, landed, and left, humming "the high and the mighty". Gordy has mentioned before it is somewhat a "kalifornia" thing with multiple government agencies with their own fleets (this one was LA County Fire - Air Ops) criss-crossing over each other, where out of state the fire is co-ordinated by gov/state, but helicopters are contracted experienced utility operators. You won't substitute experience with training. Was anybody else straining their eyes looking for guy wires?

[Carbon Bootprint]

Maybe its an AW139 thing, wide-body, piss-poor utility visibility, and a couple of guys obviously out of their element in confined/unprepared sites. Compensated for by overactive, though productive, CRM. A single-pilot bush guy with an AStar would just have gone in, landed, and left, humming "the high and the mighty". Gordy has mentioned before it is somewhat a "kalifornia" thing with multiple government agencies with their own fleets (this one was LA County Fire - Air Ops) criss-crossing over each other, where out of state the fire is co-ordinated by gov/state, but helicopters are contracted experienced utility operators. You won't substitute experience with training. Was anybody else straining their eyes looking for guy wires?
I guess you're not a fan of the AW139, to each his own. For the record, the ship belongs to LAFD which is the City of Los Angeles FD. LA County FD has its own fleet (https://www.fire.lacounty.gov/helicopter-acquisition/), though I suppose that sort of reinforces your/Gordy's point on all the government operators on the Left Coast. And then there's CalFire (http://www.calfire.ca.gov/fire_protection/fire_protection_air_program).

[Spunk]

„Outstanding.... team effort“. I‘m pretty sure we will see them at the following „Heros of the year“ award.������

[Mast Bumper]

Excellent work and coordination!

[SASless]

I shall sound like a spoil sport here.....when you show up with your suitcases and dogs.....it is a more a transport than a rescue.

Smoke does not qualify as Cloud....but nipping along in the edge of the smoke columns when there was a clear air route to the landing spot makes me wonder about all those other aircraft zipping about.

Overall....a good effort....but Hero Badges....errr.....perhaps not.

When you melt your chin bubbles due to the heat....that is a close call.

Gordy is pretty low key....but he and another Pilot in a second machine pulled off a real rescue a while back.

Perhaps he might relate his account of that event....where some fire fighters were in risk of being over run by a fast moving fire.

[krypton_john]

I was worrying about guy wires and earth wires attached to those structures at the car park area!

[Gordy]

Gordy is pretty low key....but he and another Pilot in a second machine pulled off a real rescue a while back.


Ahh the King fire 4 years ago, remember it well, Gary Dahlen was the other pilot, I was just on the Hirz fire with him a few months back. You can see the twelve guys running on the left. They were in a bad place, deployed their shelters, Gary got them running before the fire hit them, and I guided them 2 miles running through trails and logging roads to where we could get them picked up.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1047/safe_186ce4bd4cf1f6f2369cccb1d81607b0f07a19d6.jpg
There were numerous people picked up on the Carr fire and the Camp fire, we don't have cameras and record it all though.....

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

"Overall....a good effort....but Hero Badges....errr.....perhaps not."

I agree with SASless

I have a high threshold of what constitutes a Hero.
First, only the person who's life was in imminent danger can apply the Hero label.
Second, you need to have put your life in actual danger, with a serious risk of dying or being seriously injured whilst saving someone in imminent danger
If neither the victim, nor the rescuer were potentially going to die or be seriously injured in the very near future, then my definition of hero hasn't been met.
True Heroism is being washed out by giving participation trophies

[aa777888]

There's a fine line between routine and heroic.

My accomplishments barely lift the needle off the peg but FWIW I was soiling myself watching that first landing attempt, then leaned back with a yawn when they touched down on the spur of the ridge.

Didn't see any luggage, just a couple of people and their pets with either bad luck or poor decision making skills.

[SASless]

In Gordy's photo....the dust trail rising behind the running firefighters tells me they were in a hurry!

Those kind of folk are used to being very close and personal with Wild Fires....and too often pay a steep price for doing so.

Once you undergo Fire Shelter Training...and crawl into that flimsy bit of kit....and contemplate what it would be like to have a Fire burn over you.....NO THANKS!

Riding in a helicopter even with the likes of Gordy and myself is the far better option!

First Link tells of the loss of Nineteen Firefighters who deployed their Shelters during the Yarnell Fire.

https://nationalpost.com/news/elite-crew-deployed-heat-resistant-shelters-but-last-ditch-effort-couldnt-save-19-firefighters-from-firestorm





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT7psp-BZmU

[RVDT]

Have been in a similar situation many moons back.

Scooped a whole bunch off the side of a hill in Australia. Single Pilot with a B205 and answered the call for help.

Did a head count after we landed - 23. No seats so it was a bit easier and nobody complained!

Everyone is a bit more savvy these days!

[stilllearning]

Also agree that is far from being a heroic mission. I am sure the crew would not claim for it either, but still a good axample of excellent CRM and a good job. That type of "resues" are very common in those situations ... floods, and so on ... is not that people is at a great risk but still they need a hand (lift, hoist or what ever...) to improve a bit their poor situation ...

[[email protected]]

Completely agree with comment about excellent CRM no, that was conversational operating and they were enormously lucky not to crash on the first approach or the subsequent go around. Did you hear any positive acknowledgement of the obstacles? Large tower with masts, two large aerials with no talk about their stays, no mention of the FOD in the one o'clock that was looking to get airborne. Do people not use clock code and distances to specify targets/threats/landing areas?

Anyone hear any considerations for OEI? Flyaway/escape route etc? Yes, I know they were in a 139 but they didn't mention the PI at all.

Fortunately the outcome was good but we could easily have been looking at an accident there.

[stilllearning]

Every mission has some aspects that could have been improved when analized once finished, but I still think CRM was good. Different thing is mission planning and decission making....Agree that the FOD moving while landing just about to fly away is scary the say the least....

[fadecdegraded]

no, that was conversational operating and they were enormously lucky not to crash on the first approach or the subsequent go around. Did you hear any positive acknowledgement of the obstacles? Large tower with masts, two large aerials with no talk about their stays, no mention of the FOD in the one o'clock that was looking to get airborne. Do people not use clock code and distances to specify targets/threats/landing areas?

Anyone hear any considerations for OEI? Flyaway/escape route etc? Yes, I know they were in a 139 but they didn't mention the PI at all.

Fortunately the outcome was good but we could easily have been looking at an accident there.


AW139 2up or 5 and two dogs low fuel don’t think OEI would have been a problem.
You don’t have to operate to PC1 or 2 just because it’s a ME

[[email protected]]

Yes, I know how powerful the 139 is but it would still be worth mentioning an escape route since you need to get to 50 kts to be safe OEI iaw the QRH.

Did they do any 'Before-Landing Checks'? didn't hear them or a 150'call.....lots of chat about fuel and how things were either getting 'ugly' or weren't going to be 'pretty' but nothing that sounded like a professional helicopter crew going about their business.

[Bell_ringer]

Tough crowd :ouch:

[SASless]

Crab,

Seems some gaps in the video....is it possible some of the dialogue got edited out in the interest of brevity?

Also...some outfits use a Silent Checklist and Hand Signals to indicate completion with no verbal comment needed unless something is other than it is supposed to be in the Checklist.

You might accept others might just do things differently than the way you do....and not be any less professional.

[[email protected]]

Seems some gaps in the video....is it possible some of the dialogue got edited out in the interest of brevity? Possible but the crucial parts seem continuous.

As for silent checklist and hand signals - nothing in the 139 RFM or FCOM for those...........

It's not my way or the highway but nothing they did or said filled me with confidence.....just sayin'

Celebrating mediocrity just drives standards further downwards.

[Fareastdriver]

SASless; the scenario has changed since we hung up our headsets. You now have to spend hours rattling off checklists whilst people die.

[SASless]

Crab,

Did I miss something?

Last time I looked RFM's were printed on Paper using Ink....not chiseled in stone.

Also....not every word in the RFM carries the weight of Law.

When a Manufacturer in Italy can dictate Operator procedures in California....you let me know will you!

[TeeS]

Yes, I know how powerful the 139 is but it would still be worth mentioning an escape route since you need to get to 50 kts to be safe OEI iaw the QRH.


I know I shouldn't get involved in these sorts of squabbles; however, I've had a couple of glasses of wine and I'm struggling to see why a helicopter, which I imagine is more than capable of a OEI, outside ground effect hover with just 2 crew on board, would need to get to 50kts before being considered 'safe OEI', does the quick reference handbook really state that without any caveats Crab?
Cheers
TeeS

[RVDT]

Crab old chap. Public Use Aircraft. 14 CFR Not applicable -

Not saying that they don't but technically "Civil" Rules don't apply. Pilot licence not required, no airworthiness oversight, etc etc. technically.

You can quote whatever you like but in this case they can choose to ignore it. Again, I am not saying that they do.

As for "pre-landing" checks and 150' calls - well for one you would be constantly in the phase between doing the checks and landing all day long and as for 150' you would need to be above 150' first. What would be the most important
check? GEAR DOWN? I doubt that they even raise it. The advisories would drive you nuts.

I am sure you would adapt after the 50th landing for the day and about 9-10 hours in the seat! Otherwise you would be hoarse from the constant patter and how would you perform the same the next 10 hour day?

Before quoting FTDT - note as I said 14 CFR Not applicable.

As to the fuel comments we dont know what reserve policy they use and as there are probably about 10 places within 10 minutes of where they were to refuel it could actually be very skinny!

I'm with SAS and FED on this one. There are several ways to skin a cat - some just work out better.

[[email protected]]

Tees - Yes,

Ignoring simple checks is a really good way to land with the gear up or make a similar human error.

They can disable the Aural Warning Generator which removes the 150' call just the same as we often select the TAWS into Low Alt mode to inhibit warnings but when all of that stuff is on te aircraft to stop one making a c*ck of onesself then you might at least make a visual and verbal check.

Plenty of ways to skin a cat? Sure but those two were not displaying anything most people would recognise as CRM and when suddenly faced with something unusual, as this crew were, you would think some sort of self preservation would get you to do a decent recce of an unfamiliar LS instead of going for the 'suck it and see' variety.

Sheer luck prevented an accident at that first LS.

I don't mean to vilify the crew but the comments about 'heroes' and 'great CRM' were completely unjustified and I wouldn't want. less experienced pilots to hold this up as an example of 'how to do it'.

[SuperF]

RVDT, re the fuel comment, i have to agree. i often talk about being out of fuel, but i count my fuel from my minimum upwards. So when I say I'm out of fuel, that just means I'm down to my minimum...

[heliduck]

I landed on a beach last week & picked up some hikers who had bailed out halfway through an 8 day walk. I went all the way there & back in a SINGLE ENGINE with no-one to read the checklist to me........please send my medal to my residential address.:ok:

[RVDT]

I don't mean to vilify the crew but the comments about 'heroes' and 'great CRM' were completely unjustified and I wouldn't want. less experienced pilots to hold this up as an example of 'how to do it'.

I agree with that for sure. Another point is that we don't know that the guy in the left is even flight crew. Technically SP with a loadie/winch op?

From my point of view using a 139 in these types of ops would be hard work for numerous reasons.

The bigger is better falls over when you still only have one helicopter that can only be in one place at one time.

You can fly them SP but it would be difficult to operate them SP. Crap visibility from the cockpit for a start which you really need good visibility if you are going to mix it low level with sneaky obstacles as we saw.

Hardly ideal.

[[email protected]]

RVDT - agreed:ok:

[EMS R22]

"Overall....a good effort....but Hero Badges....errr.....perhaps not."

I agree with SASless

I have a high threshold of what constitutes a Hero.
First, only the person who's life was in imminent danger can apply the Hero label.
Second, you need to have put your life in actual danger, with a serious risk of dying or being seriously injured whilst saving someone in imminent danger
If neither the victim, nor the rescuer were potentially going to die or be seriously injured in the very near future, then my definition of hero hasn't been met.
True Heroism is being washed out by giving participation trophies


I agree!!!

[[email protected]]

Tees, further to the OEI question - yes, the 139 is capable of being OEI at less than 50kts or in the hover, but you can only assess that by reference to the PI and your drop down height (if you have remembered to Perf Init the FMS).

No mention of either in the video clip, especially in the critical stages of the approach.

The 50 kts figure in the QRH is clearly a one-size fits all figure valid for the whole of the flight envelope - it also mentions acceptable rate of climb and safe clearance from the surface.

[Bomber ARIS]

the 139 is capable of being OEI at less than 50kts or in the hover, but you can only assess that by reference to the PI and your drop down height

Would not pre flight planning also indicate at what Weight, Altitude and Temperature they might be OEI capable?

One would contend that ye olde Rotorcraft Flight Manual would be able to inform them that, with 2 POB and at close to minimum fuel, they would expect to have OEI HOGE performance

[SASless]

If the Operator utilized USFS Techniques....each Flight would have a Load Calc computed for various configurations as part of the Daily Pre-Flight planning. (Yes....I know....it was not a USFS Operation.).

[Gordy]

If the Operator utilized USFS Techniques....each Flight would have a Load Calc computed for various configurations as part of the Daily Pre-Flight planning. (Yes....I know....it was not a USFS Operation.).
We do these for every flight in my company.....regardless of the customer, and we document it on our FRAT, (Flight Risk Assessment for the uninformed).

[SASless]

It is not hard to be professional in carrying out one's daily work is it?

Safe work practices pay off....in lower costs and Customer appreciation for how you go about earning their repeat business.

[[email protected]]

Bomber - yes, if you are only doing one task but where the payload/pax/fuel operating areas are constantly changing you can easily keep on top of it by updating the performance initialisation page in the FMS - then two button presses get you a page with your max weight HOGE/HIGE, dropdown height, endurance speed etc etc - 'tis the modern way apparently:ok:

[Bomber ARIS]

Crab - apologies, I was just being arch.

As a 139 TRE, I, too, love the smell of Phase 7 in the morning. However, I always scan the day's forecast QNHs, temperatures, etc. and give myself a conservative overview of the performance expectations of the day/night ahead - an exercise in which the 139 perf data typically promises sunshine, lollipops and stellar OEI performance

I prefer to do this over a cup of tea on the ground, where I often tend to be less dim than when I'm parked on top of a bush, on a smokey ridgeline, with two strange hounds breathing down my neck...

As for their much lauded CRM, I'm happy for a casual cockpit, but we MUST take care of the fundamentals, of which, accurate obstacle identification and acknowledgement and a wee plan to deconflict are crucial.

On a more positive note, the captain's English Mastiff recognition skills are top notch ;-)

[[email protected]]

Bomber - :ok:

[SASless]

Gordy is my Hero for today!

I asked him to come around and tell us a bit about the aftermath of the big fires and part of what he and some others are doing to help victims of the fires.

I joke with him quite often and give him a lot of stick on a wide range of things....but this time I realized what a great human being he is and how much I value his friendship over the years.

(I told him he had 24 hours to show up....or I was going to tell the story my way and he would have to rebut it however he could!)

[Gordy]

Well I guess as I have been called out.....I was chatting on Facebook with SASless earlier and let on some of the things I have been doing recently.

I currently live in Redding, California which is where the Carr fire was, (which I flew on for about 3 weeks), and the Camp fire in Paradise is about 45 miles away. Thousands of homes were burnt and while most people got out, most either left their pets behind or were not able to get home from work and get their pets. I met a group of people who are putting up cat feeding stations near burned homes and setting up cameras to try identify the cats that come to them. I kinda joined and help out when I can. We establish a pattern with a set animal and then set traps to catch it. We are still finding pet cats and re-uniting them with their owners after almost 6 months since the Carr fire.

A friend of mine is "fostering" a cat from the Camp fire. This is "Kitty the Kat", or as I call her: the "attention Whooore". She been fostered since the fire in Paradise, California. She was found outside a burnt house, she has burned paws, missing fur on her back that was burned off and her ears were burned. We nursed her back to health---she still has nightmares occasionally and likes to fall asleep "holding" onto your hand.

Her owner lost her home and has just, (as in yesterday), relinquished control of her as she cannot have the pet in her new place. Due to the screwed up rules, we have to return Kitty on Monday to her "rescuer" who has first refusal on adoption. Monday will be a tough day in the Gordy world, but don't tell anyone......

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x720/vmacocsoak_2256583732189_1_img952816_314a5cc40d0887c8cfd4e36 2c19eaf7f49dd7bd2.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1008x756/20181230_110850_3eaadac255ee4486c499f1dd2cf057b4bdf51a26.gif


A feeding station

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1008x756/20181225_163332_6157ac982cb73013d65470e91425b6bd2ec23160.gif

[SASless]

Who got the most out of that hand holding thing....you or the other "Attention Whore"?

Gordy refuses to admit it but he really is a softy at heart.

The full magnitude of the damage wrought by the two fires is hard to imagine as these kinds of fires take not just physical items but also inflicts real hardship and emotional harm as well.

I admire those like Gordy who go the extra mile in trying to help total strangers in time of need.

Back during Hurricane Florence that spared me mostly but destroyed so many homes in the area....then was followed up by Tropical Storm Mariah that dumped yet more monsoon amounts of rain....I was involved in feeding some Cats and Dogs when folks had to evacuate their homes.

I even fed some Hogs.....but that had a dual purpose I am almost ashamed to admit.

They shall return the favor here in another month or so.

[Gordy]

I suspect most have no clue the devastation of wild fires. Unfortunately I see it all the time. Here is an article in USA today with 89 high quality pictures of the Carr fire, and yes that is me who flew their photographer:

USA today over the Carr Fire (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/08/24/carr-fire-redding-california-destruction-aerial-view/1089914002/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomnation-topstories)

Same article different news site in case the first one is blocked:

Redding Carr Fire Article (https://www.redding.com/story/news/2018/08/24/carr-fire-redding-california-destruction-aerial-view/1080313002/)

[Gordy]

Who got the most out of that hand holding thing....you or the other "Attention Whore"?

Gordy refuses to admit it but he really is a softy at heart.


I suspect we prolly both got the most out of it. I kinda like the "Attention Whore", not ready to say good bye....

Ancient wisdom....If you wish to find out who loves you more, lock your wife and your dog, (or cat), in the trunk of your car for 4 hours, then let them out and see who is more pleased to see you....