Quick question - RAF officer's cummerbund?

[Tankertrashnav]

Just digging around a drawer and I have discovered a light blue cummerbund, with three pleats. Did we ever wear such a thing with mess dress, either number 5 or tropical? The only photo I have of myself in the latter shows me wearing a dark blue/grey cummerbund , but not this thing. Was it something we wore with DJs maybe. Mine has an Alkit label, and 36" waist size tag - shows you how old it is :(

[MPN11]

Yes, we wore them as an alternative to the proper waistcoat. Unless you were Regt, or on a FJ sqn, in which case you wore aomething ostentatious. Tropical option for 5a, unless in 5b with the white waistoat?

With a DJ one dressed better ... hopefully! I have a large collection of DJ waistcoats that no longer fit, plus of course the black silk cummerbund. All down to the occasion, of course!

I still have mine. Offers over £5 will cover postage! ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

The blue cummerbund actually replaced the waistcoat. Then sometime later, 2-3 years I think, it was decreed that those who still had waistcoats could wear them again. As waistcoats were only optional they were not provided in initial kit, then full circle and they were scaled again. Probably fitted in with a senior officer's retirement.

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, not just FJ.

[BEagle]

The vile pale blue cummerbund was standard for a while, then blue waistcoats were allowed to be worn again. Most real squadrons had their own cummerbunds, but then 'They' decided that we all had to look the same - so blue waistcoats became mandatory again (without any re-kitting allowance, of course)...

...or so 'They' expected. But the rule was given a stiff ignoring, as most real squadrons decided that individualism was preferable and to hell with the consequences - if the PMC expected anyone to volunteer for Dining-In Nights, that is.

I've just found that duck egg blue Alkit thing and what a dreadful piece of rubbish it truly was. The gaudy red-and-white chequered cummerbund our 56(F) spam exchange officer's wife made looks so much smarter! As does my 101 Sqn cummerbund and tie.

But I haven't been to a formal dinner for a few years now - in any case, DJ and mess kit trousers shrink when left unworn in a wardrobe, it seems!

[langleybaston]

It happens to civvies too.
About 20 years ago I had two beautiful suits built by a little tailor in the Dales [two because one seemed so reasonably priced].
Each was worn about twice a year, then once, then not at all.
They shrunk beyond belief in a clean wardrobe in a modern house in a dry part of the country.
They went to a charity shop last year.
There is something sinister happening in our wardrobes, more immediately consequential than Brexit.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks a lot chaps, I just didn't recognise it when I saw it. Times certainly changed during my service - when I was first commissioned we were still wearing the old white waistcoat for Ladies Guest Nights. I wonder what happened to that? At Catterick one of the chaps wore the old tight mess overalls with the elastic straps over patent leather boots (not shoes). Such ostentation was frowned upon by the PMC but as the chap had a private income and didnt give a bugger about petty regulations he carried on wearing them.

[Haraka]

Indeed TTN. White waistcoat and stiff collar. In its defence, the cummerbund was arguably a bit more comfortable on a hot evening.
I never quite got the hang of tying a single-ended bow tie though!

[Wensleydale]

There is the apocryphal story of the very junior RAF Regiment officer, newly graduated from Cranwell, who was sent to Buckingham Palace when the QCS carried out changing of the guard for a couple of weeks. Needless to say, he took along his mess kit as ordered, and found himself at Dinner with the family (it was customary for the off duty guard commander to dine during the deployment to the Palace). The poor chap knew nothing about horses and corgis and was a little short of conversation so Prince Phillip decided to break the ice:

"Tell me, young man. All of our Army chaps have lots of different uniforms for dining and yet you RAF chaps only seem to have just the one".

" Oh well sir, this is the 5b dress with a soft shirt and blue waistcoat, but we can also wear the 5a dress which has a stiff white shirt with wing collar and a white waistcoat - but we only wear that one for special occasions..."

Cue an explosion of laughter into the soup.

[BEagle]

Apparently that story came from the Prince of Wales who, after the young Rock had said that the white waistcoat was only worn on 'special occasions', allegedly continued "Such as dining with the Queen?".

The stiff fronted shirt, wing collar and white waistcoat was utter purgatory!

[MPN11]

Thanks a lot chaps, I just didn't recognise it when I saw it. Times certainly changed during my service - when I was first commissioned we were still wearing the old white waistcoat for Ladies Guest Nights. I wonder what happened to that? At Catterick one of the chaps wore the old tight mess overalls with the elastic straps over patent leather boots (not shoes). Such ostentation was frowned upon by the PMC but as the chap had a private income and didnt give a bugger about petty regulations he carried on wearing them.My Mess Dress overalls are also slim cut, and worn with boots. The latter are highly polished german chrome leather, made to measure in Singapore in c. 1968 and still going strong!

When acquiring from Messrs Moss in London a new pair of overalls [following a particularly rowdy Guest night] i requested 14" trouser cuffs. The tailor said, "Sir, that could only be worn with boots." "Yes, I know, and I wear boots." He complied with my requirement. ;)

[Fareastdriver]

You needed boots for Mess Rugby.

[Pontius Navigator]

The stiff fronted shirt, wing collar and white waistcoat was utter purgatory!
The last time I recall wearing the formal kit was in the late 60s. In the early 70s I was at Akrotiri where we wore white jackets with epaulettes for summer but I don't think we wore the stiff shirts.

I think we still wore them at ISK when we had someone important like DoE :). Sent the shirt off to the laundry - it went to Aberdeen - and came back beautifully soft and comfortable. It was immediately sent back. On return it had a small woven label fastened to the collar - Stiff Front. I don't think I ever wore it again.

Some years later, before a tour in ASI, I dug out my white jacket unworn for 10 years. Once we got the brown stains out off it went to Aberdeen, again it came back soft and made a return journey. During my time at ASI we went to Red Sea rig but I didn't have the right shirt.

[Cows getting bigger]

I don't ever remember not being allowed to wear the waistcoat. My vague recollection is that you could take the option of the waistcoat or cummerbund providing the Stn Cdr endorsed the cummerbund option (served 1985-2008).

Call me a heretic, but whilst I welcomed (and occasionally wore) sqn cummerbunds, I sort of got a bit rattled if people didn't wear black tie. I had a similar view of colleagues from Jockistan who chose to wear their chequered skirt.

[Pontius Navigator]

CGB, by '85 waistcoats were IN again. Did you get an initial issue?

[MPN11]

CGB, by '85 waistcoats were IN again. Did you get an initial issue?
Issue?!!! When did officers get ‘issued’ ... one purchased from one’s tailor, especially Mess Dress, from HMG’s bounteous Officers Commisioning Allowance and subsequent Tax relief!!

OK, some cheap and nasty stuff was available for Stores on repayment, but that wasn’t officers clothing.

[XN593]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/img_20181118_172934126_b9ad005619a76236d9ac018a5ce15e3f55772 20c.jpg

R.E.City Henlow August 1973

[MPN11]

Now that’s what I call a squirrel!! :) Nice addition to the debate! God, that’s cheap, but full credit for going for the studs and cufflinks.

I had the latter items passed on to me by my father, which was kind, but my wife paid money for the gold pocket watch and chain.

[Fareastdriver]

In 1960 we got £10.0.0 to buy a hat, gloves and shoes off the visiting tailors at South Cerney.

I flashed out on the best. A Bates hat, the old one with the full crown that could be wet towelled to a Luftwaffe lookalike. Gloves from RE City and the creme of clogs, Poulsen shoes.

[Pontius Navigator]

Issue?!!! When did officers get ‘issued’ ... one purchased from one’s tailor, especially Mess Dress, from HMG’s bounteous Officers Commisioning Allowance and subsequent Tax relief!!

OK, some cheap and nasty stuff was available for Stores on repayment, but that wasn’t officers clothing.
Yes issued. Not sure about No 5 but I was appalled when I discovered they issued No 1 off the peg. I too remember the various military tailors lining up for orders, City, Alkit, Grieves, Moss Bros. I think our respective flt cdrs steered us to particular tailors. Later, they were present out our fitting before allowing us to accept the uniform. Mine was quite loose - "you'll grow into it". I did, it lasted 12 years before I bought one from an officer soon to retire. It then lasted a lot longer.

[NRU74]

There was a cheapskate(ish) option, which we didn’t know about until after we were commissioned, about kit.(I was at Cerney). The chaps who were chopped at Cerney and Henlow etc had to, apparently, hand in the kit they’d bought with the financial grant, back to stores. This was then available for purchase as ‘partly worn’ and, of course, was virtually brand new.
I bought a ‘spare’ hat and a pair of SD shoes but I can’t for the life of me remember from where I bought them. Cranwell rings a bell but 57 years on my memory isn’t what it ought to be, but the stuff was half price.

[Wensleydale]

Ernie Bedford's in Newark was the place to buy uniform!

[Barksdale Boy]

PN

Flt cdrs were not allowed to steer one towards a particular tailor. The redoubtable J R Smith said, "I am not permitted to recommend a tailor but you can ask me who my tailor is". We did ask and it was R E City.

[XN593]

MPN11
Squirrel here.
Regarding the costs, I have in front of me my Linton on Ouse mess bill for December '74.
It was £18.94. My July 74 payslip shows £151.90 gross and £119.44 net.
How cheap was that!
XN593

[BEagle]

One of the 'privileges' of being Senior Student at ULAS in 1972-3 was that I would be invited to the ULOTC annual dinner. I already had 'interim' mess kit from Flt Cdt days (shirt and bow tie worn with No.1 HD), but hadn't received the full officers' uniform allowance. I couldn't face the shame of turning up in interim kit, so off to Moss Bros for a jacket. They had lots of cancelled orders, so a couple of 'Suits you sir' types soon found one which fitted and I bought it for a good price, plus a cummerbund. I never did buy the trousers as my No1 trousers were 'high cut' and totally adequate.

The ULOTC do was quite fun - some of the students turned up in all sorts of fancy kit looking like Quality Street choccie tin models. But unlike ULAS in those days, they also had a number of rather nice young ladies.

Never bought any more mess kit from a tailor; just a blue waistcoat from a mate who was leaving the mob some 20 years later.

Who remembers the excellent 'Sweater, cashmere with moleskin facings' spoof of around 1980-81?

[FantomZorbin]

Ernie Bedford's in Newark was the place to buy uniform!
I was tempted to buy the Solartopi(?) he had but SWMBO veto'ed the idea … I don't understand why!!

[MPN11]

Regarding the costs, I have in front of me my Linton on Ouse mess bill for December '74.
It was £18.94. My July 74 payslip shows £151.90 gross and £119.44 net.
How cheap was that!
XN593Autumn 1966, RAF Shawbury, Plt Off doing the GCA Course.
Net pay £52/10/0, Mess Bill £54/12/6. I still have the Mess Bill filed somewhere, but sadly lost the matching payslip.!

[spekesoftly]

....... and the creme of clogs, Poulsen shoes.
Poulsen Skone & Co Ltd, Box Oxfords £4-7-6. I still have the receipt from 1969!

[Pontius Navigator]

I never did buy the trousers as my No1 trousers were 'high cut' and totally adequate.

Sadly the subtlety of high cut seemed to have been missed by many with shirt visible below the waistcoat.

[Wensleydale]

Sadly the subtlety of high cut seemed to have been missed by many with shirt visible below the waistcoat.

Which shows the advantage of the Squadron Cummerbund. Back in the day, my waistcoat was just a front with a couple of elastic straps at the back. As years went by, a new No1 was acquired (second hand of course) but there was no real need to buy another number 5....until there was a three line whip VIP dining in night, and the PMC specified "Waistcoats - no cummerbunds". Needless to say, my No 1 Trousers fitted well, and I could get my jacket on (although it did not meet any more) but sadly, when I put on the waistcoat, it did not fully cover the white shirt area left by the jacket. Not only was there a gap between the waistcoat and the trousers, but there was also a white gap at each side of the midriff! Sadly, I had to return to the cummerbund, pretend that I had not seen the dress order (we did spend a lot of time on detachment) and accepted the fine of a bottle of port.

After that, it was down to the tailor at Cranwell for a new No5 uniform, although at the prices that were being charged, and the scarcity of dining in nights later in my career, I calculated that it cost me about £75 each time I wore my No5! The fines would have been cheaper.