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Deejaypee
13th Nov 2018, 12:06
QF media release today, all Qjet Flights ex DRW going to Mainline and JQ!

Lapon
13th Nov 2018, 12:20
Unfortuante for sure, though I'm sure few would consider it a great surprise.
Sincerely hope the guys/gals will have thier EBA provisions honored in accordance with the relevant provisions.

wheels_down
13th Nov 2018, 12:58
$959 return Cairns to the Alice.

Thatís the cheapest I can find on the QF site.

There was certainly no effort here in even slightly attempting to stimulate the market by lowering fares.

havick
13th Nov 2018, 17:20
Isnít flying returning to the mothership a good thing for mainline jobs as opposed to C scale contractor jobs?

travelator
13th Nov 2018, 21:55
There are no winners here Havick. The 717s will be redistributed to other bases, no extra flying to the mothership. Just employees and their families that will be uprooted and sent away after many many years of service. Some in Darwin have been there for 20+ years, since before there even was a domestic Qantas.

The Green Goblin
14th Nov 2018, 00:14
My sympathies to the crew. Nothing worse (aside from the airline going bust) than a base closure or forced transfer.

Especially this time of year.

Hopefully Airnorth will employ a few onto the Ejet that want to stay. Letís also hope that the staff travel arrangement improves a little so some can commute.

I believe the crew have access now to STO? Whatís the onload priority like?

Duck Pilot
14th Nov 2018, 03:14
Jumped off a jet in Cairns the other day and I thought I was in Asia, in town and at the airport.

Thought to myself, why canít the same thing be going on in the NT, particularly Darwin.

Remember when I was a teenager, Crocodile Dundee era when top end tourism was advertised heavily. Doesnít seem to be much of it these days, not sure why - NT guvument has certainly dropped the ball on tourism.

Being a Darwin resident who travels monthly in and out of the place, I can only say that the flight availablies to get in and out are absolutely atrocious.

This decision by Qantas is no surprise and itís probably compounded by Cobhamís crewing issues.

Stationair8
14th Nov 2018, 03:48
Is Brol, still Darwin based with Cobham on the B717.

The NT tourist/government donít seem doing much to promote tourism in the Top End.

CaptainEmad
14th Nov 2018, 10:06
Hang on a minute, so if the flights are “half empty” why would they be replaced with JQ A320 or QF B737s?

Something not right with the story. Is it the despatch reliability that has been the last straw?

Is it Cobham trying to crew on he smell of an oily rag as they are known to do?

?

gordonfvckingramsay
14th Nov 2018, 20:41
Dispatch reliability of the of 717? That's sad, especially when you consider QFs steadfast reliance on "on demand" maintenance and insufficient engineers in most ports. It's not the 717, it's the way QF choose to run them.

I imagine the half full factor will be countered by a reduction in frequency.

RENURPP
14th Nov 2018, 22:41
Dispatch reliability of the of 717? That's sad, especially when you consider QFs steadfast reliance on "on demand" maintenance and insufficient engineers in most ports. It's not the 717, it's the way QF choose to run them.

I imagine the half full factor will be countered by a reduction in frequency.
Additionally., its QF that determine staff numbers not COBHAM.

From a seperate thread, Haviick made the following comment. "It's not unrealistic at all to be earning 150k USD + at envoy within 2 years of starting."

Mate on the hours you quoted, (140 I think it was) your a "F" scale oin comparrison. and I am assuming you are quotong F/O figures?

Blitzkrieger
15th Nov 2018, 05:20
Additionally., its QF that determine staff numbers not COBHAM.

But actually meeting those pilot numbers falls back to the contractor, begs the question: Are they??

Rated De
15th Nov 2018, 05:52
The industry response to cost base increases was to out source and utilise contractors.
Predicated on unlimited supply significant savings were achieved. At the apex of this contractor model is Ryan Air.
As the industry matures and supply issues persist eventually pilots will be seen as an asset to the employer, not simply a cost.

With this announcement at the stroke of a pen, some Coward (pun intended) 'outsources' another cost to a contractor; moving states.

As the Colgan air accident uncovered, 'flags of convenience' for airlines with respect to contractors and location in order to minimise liability are slowly becoming a thing of a more adversarial time.
For the people affected, sadly this is the contract world, just as big corporates like it.
The positive is that demographic pressure will eventually be the death knell for shoddy practices like this, where QF own the aircraft and move them back to Sydney, but the people are left to fend for themselves.
Contractor work forces are a bit like mercenaries, will do the fighting but ultimately nothing is owed them.
Plenty of alternatives these days

Blitzkrieger
15th Nov 2018, 06:47
If QF only knew what peril their 717 operation was in with regard to finding suitable pilots. One of the best EBA's going and still a HUGE percentage of their pilots have their sights set on other alternatives. Great EBA, amazingly fun and satisfying aircraft to fly and generally great people to fly with, but it's the uncertainty that makes many want to lock down a better long term life for their families.

Berealgetreal
15th Nov 2018, 10:17
Companies will sooner lower the bar than increase conditions, so don't hold your breath waiting. They don't care one iota if you, a 20,000 hour Check Captain leaves, they will just replace you with an 18 year old on a cadet course.

Rated De
15th Nov 2018, 10:36
Companies will sooner lower the bar than increase conditions, so don't hold your breath waiting. They don't care one iota if you, a 20,000 hour Check Captain leaves, they will just replace you with an 18 year old on a cadet course.

Precisely, until there are insufficient 18 year old cadets.

For reference one need merely look at the US industry approach to demographic persistent shortages.
Airlines may well first try the 'self funded' cadet. How many of these will incur $150,000+ debt for the return on offer?
The retirement profile of all airlines will simply outstrip the IR approaches that have been the stalwarts of the past. They cannot continue to crew aircraft into the next decade with the type of 'employment relationships' they have previously enjoyed. Behind their rhetoric is a realisation that the balance has shifted.
Eventually capitulating, they will have to absorb the sunk cost themselves and pay for the training. After all there isn't much operating revenue with no aircraft operating...

At present entities like Cobham exist because there was ample supply. There is 'supply' in the market it is simply that airlines aren't willing to pay the market rate. Understandably, they prefer a well worn Australian approach; import labour from anywhere to control labour cost. Exhausting this supply, terms and conditions will increase to attract supply.

Berealgetreal
16th Nov 2018, 06:26
Rated De, there will never be a shortage of 18 year olds willing to do the job. In the US the situation changed after Colgan.
i think if Colgan happened here it would be business as usual after the Captain had been tarred and feathered to the point that the ratings on Today Tonight begin to decline.

Berealgetreal
16th Nov 2018, 06:28
Might push a few of the Cobham DRW guys and gals to have a roll of the Chinese dice. Others may go back to more regional jobs to stay in DRW rather than end up in SYD or MEL doing max hours and 12 hour days. Not that I know what the 717 does on the east coast!

Rated De
16th Nov 2018, 07:54
Rated De, there will never be a shortage of 18 year olds willing to do the job. In the US the situation changed after Colgan.
i think if Colgan happened here it would be business as usual after the Captain had been tarred and feathered to the point that the ratings on Today Tonight begin to decline.

Whilst the context you refer to has been the case worldwide for 30 years there is one small caveat to apply: Ceteris Parabus

Airline recruitment models and indeed response have been predicated on all other factors remaining constant.
As such, 18 year old cadets would ordinarily fill the gap.

What is at play is isnot a constant and therefore the model is ill equipped to deal with the new paradigm. Candidly you only need look at ABS data in Australia, or the ONS in the UK to tell the story; retirement rates will outstrip replacement labour in all western economies with little lag difference inside the next decade. For an industry with a narrow skill set availability and a long lead time it is rather ominous.

That is the retirement rates are beyond anything ever encountered and are largely attributable to the post war generation who are now increasingly retiring.

It is small consolation to those affected, but in Europe pilots from failed airlines are readily and rapidly absorbed by other carriers with little dislocation.
The Australian context is a little different given the dominance of the incumbents, however Asia is a short distance away.

airdualbleedfault
17th Nov 2018, 00:47
Bereal there are very few 717 operators in China and all bar a very small number of Asian carriers are taking pilots with less than 500 hours command on 73 or 320 that may well change over coming years but is the sad reality at present

F.Nose
17th Nov 2018, 01:00
Whilst the subject of Pilot recruitment and retainment is an interesting topic, it is not the reason the 717 is being pulled from Darwin.

A good friend of mine (in the know) says that the Darwin base has always had the Pilot numbers assigned and in fact in recent times Pilots happily domiciled in Darwin have been forced to move to reduce the base size. Darwin has always been a great training ground for Pilots with many having cut their aviation teeth in the vibrant GA industry up there. In fact I am told there are at least 2 Darwin residents currently on the 717 hold file who where hoping for a slot to appear.

The issue with the 737 replacement I am led to believe, lies with the local governments heavy investment in the tourism market primarily targeting the Chinese ------$103mil according to their latest press release. I believe the NT government has invested a large sum of the investment money in a joint marketing strategy with the airlines. Qantas has anticipated an increase in passenger numbers between Darwin and Alice Springs and Darwin and Ayres Rock and has increased seat capacity with the 737 to accommodate forecast loadings.

Of course only time will tell whether the governments revenue was well spent and whether or not the reaction from Qantas was justified.

logansi
17th Nov 2018, 02:10
I heard somewhere that the 717s currently in Darwin are being moved to Perth due to the increase in FIFO requirements on the back of the mining sectors revival is this correct?

VH DSJ
17th Nov 2018, 07:45
I heard somewhere that the 717s currently in Darwin are being moved to Perth due to the increase in FIFO requirements on the back of the mining sectors revival is this correct?

I think you'll find that the FIFO charter flying is done by the 146/RJ side of the operations. The B717's only operate RPT as far as I know.

Going Nowhere
17th Nov 2018, 08:32
If anything the 717’s will move to the East coast and be reconfigured with J class.

Section28- BE
17th Nov 2018, 11:58
Huh....., well 'there' you 'DO' go......!!!!!

The same, 'framework' and theory.........., only- 18x years down the track since "AN".

Wow- Good Luck- 'people'!!!!!!!!

Rgds
S28- BE

logansi
17th Nov 2018, 13:02
I think you'll find that the FIFO charter flying is done by the 146/RJ side of the operations. The B717's only operate RPT as far as I know.

sorry refering to the Qlink fifo flights they operate, been big jump over the last year and apparently the network 320s arenít enough.

Transition Layer
17th Nov 2018, 13:41
I heard somewhere that the 717s currently in Darwin are being moved to Perth due to the increase in FIFO requirements on the back of the mining sectors revival is this correct?
I must admit that was my gut feeling about where the 717s would be redeployed. Network canít get their hands on the 320s as quick as theyíd like and it seems the F100s are getting less reliable every day.

Chris2303
17th Nov 2018, 22:04
I must admit that was my gut feeling about where the 717s would be redeployed. Network canít get their hands on the 320s as quick as theyíd like and it seems the F100s are getting less reliable every day.

What happened to the fleet allegedly sitting at Toulouse and belonging to the Qantas Group?

Rated De
18th Nov 2018, 00:07
Whilst the subject of Pilot recruitment and retainment is an interesting topic, it is not the reason the 717 is being pulled from Darwin.

A good friend of mine (in the know) says that the Darwin base has always had the Pilot numbers assigned and in fact in recent times Pilots happily domiciled in Darwin have been forced to move to reduce the base size. Darwin has always been a great training ground for Pilots with many having cut their aviation teeth in the vibrant GA industry up there. In fact I am told there are at least 2 Darwin residents currently on the 717 hold file who where hoping for a slot to appear.

The issue with the 737 replacement I am led to believe, lies with the local governments heavy investment in the tourism market primarily targeting the Chinese ------$103mil according to their latest press release. I believe the NT government has invested a large sum of the investment money in a joint marketing strategy with the airlines. Qantas has anticipated an increase in passenger numbers between Darwin and Alice Springs and Darwin and Ayres Rock and has increased seat capacity with the 737 to accommodate forecast loadings.

Of course only time will tell whether the governments revenue was well spent and whether or not the reaction from Qantas was justified.

Yes. The pilot recruitment and shortage is not the point of thread. The point is that this model of employment is long in the tooth and other options (more reflective of market conditions) are on the table.

Qantas effectively solicit 'corporate welfare' when it suits, although apparently as a 100% private airline is at the mercy of the shareholders and capital markets.
Whether it is needing $3 billion in 2013, to nickel and diming Perth airport for a 'mutual investment' and ending up with a slice of government input Qantas will follow the golden ticket all the way to Canberra (or Darwin, or Perth)

Whether blinged up, approved tourists with bags full of fiat, flock to buy Darwin real estate is another thing. Adam Giles already sold them the port!

Rated De
18th Nov 2018, 00:44
What happened to the fleet allegedly sitting at Toulouse and belonging to the Qantas Group?

The thread is for the closing of the Darwin base, notwithstanding this is an interesting point.
Bear with us, but it is interesting.

Remember when QF with megaphone diplomacy announced that JQ would rise to (around) 400 aircraft by 2020?
That was former CEO Bruce Buchanan's boast when he and little Napoleon ordered the 110 A320 from EADS.
That the business is saturated with capacity and little appetite for yet more 'subsidised' subsidiaries or indeed associates they are caught...

Enter stage right, Network Aviation!

As the original JQ aircraft exit their economic life from the QF balance sheet, they can be recycled.
Phew!
Repaint them, create yet another stalking horse in the West and QF will now renew the very young JQ fleet with brand new 'non-cancellable' aircraft orders

It is well known that the JQ HK aircraft were the responsibility, financial and practical of Coward street, despite the protests, hands on heart of QF management that the 'owners' of the business in JQ paid the bills! This was a key revelation in the declining of the QF application as not compliant with the Principal Place of Business laws as applicable in HK. Those aircraft as per the findings were dispersed in the JQ segment, scattering the evidence. Bit harder to hide 90 odd new aircraft, so just as well yet another entity itself struggling to crew its flights (other than with handsomely rewarded foreigners and JQ staff) could be found to house the old aircraft lest QF management again find itself looking silly.

To the genius in QCA, pilots and their families are not even considered, it is but a contract after all.

dr dre
18th Nov 2018, 09:35
Enter stage right, Network Aviation!
As the original JQ aircraft exit their economic life from the QF balance sheet, they can be recycled.
Phew!
Repaint them, create yet another stalking horse in the West and QF will now renew the very young JQ fleet with brand new 'non-cancellable' aircraft orders


Network can barely crew their F100ís at the moment, in a time of a pilot shortage where do you suppose all those pilots are going to magically appear from to fly it? Considering every other major 320 operator pays far more.

74world
18th Nov 2018, 09:59
Hi dr dre,

Not sure if ę Network can barely crew their F100’s at the moment Ľare you sure???…..anyway they are conducting quite a few interviews at the moment.
ę Pilot shortage Ľ , yeah …..where???? probably China :{
I did my interview some time ago in Perth and still haven’t received a response from NW, so I don’t think they are that desperate.
For info I have +7000h on Airbus.
Regarding the terms and conditions, not everything is based on money thank god. You will find that Aussies from the sandpit and Asia are applying to get back home….that’s not even counting on the foreigners willing to move to oz.
As you probably know, QLINK has received the green light from the government to employ 76 expats (Capt & instructors)

If someone knows how long it takes to get an answer after an interview @ QLINK please let me know, thanks. :cool:

pilotchute
18th Nov 2018, 10:04
Surely you mean a shortage of people with 1500TT,
100 night PIC and 500 multi PIC?

Sounds like high expectations rather than a pilot shortage.

bazza stub
18th Nov 2018, 20:35
Surely you mean a shortage of people with 1500TT,
100 night PIC and 500 multi PIC?


Are you sure thatís the requirements to get into Cobham?

pilotchute
18th Nov 2018, 22:08
Bazza I was referring to there post citing a pilot shortage at Network. For the record, Cobham 717 mins are 2000TT with 500 multi PIC. This is the reason they are short too.

Coastwatch and SAR have adjusted their mins to the current climate but the 717 operation doesn't seem to want to change.

neville_nobody
19th Nov 2018, 00:24
For the record, Cobham 717 mins are 2000TT with 500 multi PIC.

Sounds like the HR department might want to have a look at their calender and figure out it's not 1998 anymore.

Unless of course they are trying to create a problem to be solved by importing labour.

shoddy88
19th Nov 2018, 01:31
Sounds like the HR department might want to have a look at their calender and figure out it's not 1998 anymore.

Unless of course they are trying to create a problem to be solved by importing labour.
Most people in the HR department were born in 1998

Rated De
19th Nov 2018, 03:49
Most people in the HR department were born in 1998

Brilliant!

Network can barely crew their F100ís at the moment, in a time of a pilot shortage where do you suppose all those pilots are going to magically appear from to fly it? Considering every other major 320 operator pays far more.

No Doctor, you misinterpreted the post. Their intent is create an illusion of ample supply. After all there are lots of pilot contracts to be negotiated.
Network will not attract sufficient foreign interest with the 'observable' contract on offer. There are lots of inducements 'in confidence' to the right applicant. Of course to the line pilot it 'appears' that there are pilots a plenty. Throw in a few seconded from JQ and the illusion looks plausible at first glance.

Paradoxically, the reality is something completely different:

1. A Qantas cadet college, two of them, ready to churn out hundreds of pilots, any day now.
Of course this won't happen the lead in time is substantial. It is intended for mass consumption that QF will have pilots aplenty!

2. Jetconnect
Rolled back into Australian operations at the expiration of the taxation credits! A better case of transfer priced assets is hard to find.
The actual reality was that Jetconnect had very few applicants per month, that failed to meet internal attrition.

3. Network Aviation
QF have a problem with the non cancellable A320 order. It is common knowledge JQ is well over scale. Another 99 aircraft was even too much for a lightweight board led by esteemed dinosaur Mr Clifford to stomach.
Grow Network with the cast off JQ aircraft. re-equip JQ with a fleet age of 7 years, while QF that generates all the revenue exceeds 11 years. Rather convenient that QF grow Network with the mining 'boom' having evaporated. Lucky for Little Napoleon.

4. Skilled shortage visas.
This won't stop. The have an able little team and former union executive looking to expand the beach head.

All of these points indicate they are well aware a shortage of 'qualified' applicants persists.

Pulling back the flimsy curtain exposes their narrative.

mattyj
19th Nov 2018, 07:34
The actual reality was that Jetconnect had very few applicants per month, that failed to meet internal attrition.

..Iíd argue that they had plenty of applicants..itís just that the floral gatekeeper loses the enthusiastic hopefuls paperwork in her wicker credenza and the aforementioned get so sick of ringing her and emailing her reminders of their applications that they give up and join virgin or jetstar instead. Iím one that gave up trying to impress her and joined the competition

pilotchute
19th Nov 2018, 07:58
I am amazed they get any applications with mins of 2000TT and 1000 hours multi engine of which at least must be 500 hours multi pic if you have no multi crew time.

Not paid during training? You must be joking.

Icarus2001
19th Nov 2018, 09:15
For the record, Cobham 717 mins are 2000TT with 500 multi PIC.
Sounds like the HR department might want to have a look at their calender and figure out it's not 1998 anymore.

Do you really think the HR clerks make these numbers up without instruction from the Head of Flight Ops? Their OM probably has something to say about it as would QF since it is their trainset. Do you think that it is possible that people with less than that sort of experience struggle with the B717?

You will find that Aussies from the sandpit and Asia are applying to get back homeÖ.thatís not even counting on the foreigners willing to move to oz. The impression I get is that the number of the former is small and of the latter very small. There is no huge pool of foreign labour ready to bang on the door of Australian aviation to be let in.

Chocks Away
19th Nov 2018, 09:38
I'll second that last remark.
There's simply no one "out there to go and sweep up with a 457 Visa"... if you think otherwise you're kidding yourself and well out of touch.
Heck, EK; QR; TK; ET (etc) have been sucking the pool dry for the last 8 -10 years and continue to, some with good commuting terms and raised financial rewards. SAS; Lufthansa Group; DHL; FedEx and many more huge airlines not previously in the market searching for crew are now hunting down pilots and paying extensions for deferred retirement. All this without mentioning any of the legacy and LCC airlines to Australia's north, who are ALL advertising!
Mates still in the sand dunes have/are still assessing Australian jobs but balking at them due to the huge living expenses there now as well as there being no increased T's & C's pretty much since they left! Much more financially rewarding on one of the numerous commuting contracts, if you want to look after your family and retire early.

pilotchute
19th Nov 2018, 10:52
Icarus,

Jetstar puts 200 hour kids in an A320 and most countries on earth will put a fresh CPL in a transport jet. The problem is Australian airlines aren't geared up to train people that way.

Setting hour requirements is a good filter to stop being inundated with CV's. The problem is when the CV's stop coming many operators seem reluctant to drop hour requirements.

Whilst I disagree with all new hires being fresh CPL's, dropping a multi required from 500 to 150 and total time from 2000 to 1200 is going to make planes fall from the sky.

Capn Bloggs
19th Nov 2018, 13:56
dropping a multi required from 500 to 150 and total time from 2000 to 1200 is going to make planes fall from the sky.
That's why they won't do it. Sorry, couldn't help meself! :}

Lapon
19th Nov 2018, 23:42
I would imagine that with the coveted recruitment policies used by QF and VA there would be more than enough suitable candidates for Cobham to pick from :}

jetlikespeeds
20th Nov 2018, 02:38
Itís nice to know that you work hard to get into this career, set yourself up on a reasonable income in a place you want to live, bring up a family and then have your home based closed down as if as easy for the company as moving a pawn around a chess board.

Its likely that in the future, the only people who are going to be interested in this career are going to be selfie loving instagramming females who woke up one day and decided they wanted to fly, only to give it up a few years later when the Ďlikesí start to dwindle and they are bored with the crappy lifestyle that an airline career offers.

Gnadenburg
20th Nov 2018, 02:52
I'll second that last remark.Mates still in the sand dunes have/are still assessing Australian jobs but balking at them due to the huge living expenses there now as well as there being no increased T's & C's pretty much since they left! Much more financially rewarding on one of the numerous commuting contracts, if you want to look after your family and retire early.

As a Melbourne based First Officer on the A320 circa 2000 I was being paid 140 K not including Superannuation. So wage growth has been modest. Now, with the industry wide collusion on pilot wages ( we are after all a barrel of oil type commodity in the view of management ) and despite a probable structural shortage, my package in Hong Kong is now on offer at about half. And there will be young Australian takers !

Too many cheap-charlies !


Icarus,Jetstar puts 200 hour kids in an A320 and most countries on earth will put a fresh CPL in a transport jet. The problem is Australian airlines aren't geared up to train people that way.

The recommendation for an MPL program was that training pilots were to be trained to some sort of ab initio jet training level. They are not. And this is just another industry cost-cutting short cut. From what I've seen, these 200 hr pilots are a considerable liability for a significant period of time. Their training needs to be increased significantly.

Icarus2001
20th Nov 2018, 03:35
Jetstar puts 200 hour kids in an A320 and most countries on earth will put a fresh CPL in a transport jet. The problem is Australian airlines aren't geared up to train people that way Which is exactly my point that you have reiterated for me. That would be why they specify 2000 total time and 500 multi.

Now, with the industry wide collusion on pilot wages Indeed, with two main GROUPS based under QF and VA there is little chance of one carrier breaking ranks and upping the salary. Even Cobham as an independent is still under the spell of QF. It is the same lack of competition we see in other areas in Australia, supermarket chains, petrol stations. Eventually though market forces will prevail.

ExtraShot
20th Nov 2018, 03:48
As a Melbourne based First Officer on the A320 circa 2000 I was being paid 140 K not including Superannuation. So wage growth has been modest.

Iíd be interested to know how many hours you were flying to achieve that, but if you adjust that figure for inflation, there arenít many narrow body F/Os earning that kind of money in Aus these days unless youíre getting absolutely flogged (and probably flying for Qantas).

I reckon youll find that that wage growth hasnít been modest as you say, itís either been stagnant (if youíre lucky), or gone waaaay backwards.

Thats not to mention that the rate of inflation really doesnít take into account big ticket items such as housing, it which case itís gone even further backwards.

Just ask what Network are trying to pay their A320 F/Os these days. Hint; itís far, far less than you were on in 2000!

Chocks Away
20th Nov 2018, 05:00
...my package in Hong Kong is now on offer at about half. - Gnadenburg, seriously?
Is that the Cathay stunt they recently pulled? I know there's huge disharmony and fatigue in the Fragrant Harbour but didn't realise it was such a slash of T's & C's.
Dragon Air contact is more solid than it's parent and there's other better ones around but crickey, what ignorance from management at such a time.
That's exactly why Skidmark (Skymark); Cebu Pacific; Brunei; Vietnam and soooooo many more can't get crew.

Respect for the workers at the coal-face who put the food on their managerial tables is long overdue, in this industry! The JAL CEO understood this!

JPJP
20th Nov 2018, 06:08
I am amazed they get any applications with mins of 2000TT and 1000 hours multi engine of which at least must be 500 hours multi pic if you have no multi crew time.

Not paid during training? You must be joking.

Yet Southwest requests 1000 hours of Turbine PIC...... and they get it. For an F.O. position. Even they pay during training, and their pay rates are the equivalent of Qantas A380, on a 737. The Legacy carriers are higher. Is it a miracle ? Or a natural reaction to industry changes and the new pilot economy.

(Not having a go at you Pilotchute. I know you’re just shining a light on the ridiculously low rates in ‘Australasia’. There’s far more ‘Asia’ than ‘Australia’ in the whole equation - if you ignore the over payed Irish midget running the show.)

dontgive2FACs
20th Nov 2018, 06:30
Wow. Gee I feel for anyone being displaced. (Been there myself). Family also suffers too which many never see or hear about on this forum. Hope all are able to find suitable solution. In the fast moving world there are many stressors without this type of situation. Please all be mindful to reach out to someone if youíre finding it rough. NO job (even the space shuttle) is worth giving in to the black dog.

Perhaps once upon a time, a job with long-standing contract company such as NJS/Cobham would have been a safe bet. Things have changed and Cobham is exactly that - a contractor.

A good seniority number in the major carriers are probably only the safer bet in terms of location.

Good of luck to all.

pilotchute
20th Nov 2018, 06:55
JPJP,

Southwest and the legacies (SWA pay is almost identical to American Airlines) have no trouble finding candidates with 1000 hours turbine PIC because there are thousands of regional jet captains on less money per hour than a first year SWA FO.

JPJP
20th Nov 2018, 08:59
JPJP,

Southwest and the legacies (SWA pay is almost identical to American Airlines) have no trouble finding candidates with 1000 hours turbine PIC because there are thousands of regional jet captains on less money per hour than a first year SWA FO.

All true. I’m intimately familiar with former. American is the lowest when profit sharing is taken into account. It’s a massively complex web. Even when one ignores Fedex and UPS.

The pool of competitive pilots is drying up at a rate that’s become a concern for the big 4+2 Airlines. Pilot recruiters are actively battling to secure the best candidates for their company. As always, a history of leadership positions is desired - Check Airmen/Chief Pilot or Stan Eval, EP, IP for Military pilots.

What frustrates me for my friends at Qantas is the apparent lack of (productive) militancy in the upcoming negotiations. The new AIPA Chairmen is a 73 guy. Perhaps he should have a chat with John Weeks and give the little Irish man running ‘The Group’ a fright. He’d then be the second Irish CEO that wished he’d never heard his name this year, :E

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2016/11/02/southwest-airlines-pilots-re-elect-mr-tough-guy.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/us-pilot-union-leaders-meet-ryanair-pilots-in-dublin-and-london-1.3270591

Rated De
20th Nov 2018, 11:55
What frustrates me for my friends at Qantas is the apparent lack of (productive) militancy in the upcoming negotiations. The new AIPA Chairmen is a 73 guy. Perhaps he should have a chat with John Weeks and give the little Irish man running ‘The Group’ a fright. He’d then be the second Irish CEO that wished he’d never heard his name this year, :E

Organised labour representative associations are simply well worn donkey tracks to flight operations. Or is that simply the experience of Australian pilots?
The Linked In profile update looked good though.

Perhaps once upon a time, a job with long-standing contract company such as NJS/Cobham would have been a safe bet. Things have changed and Cobham is exactly that - a contractor.

Precisely.

Derfred
20th Nov 2018, 13:36
Organised labour representative associations are simply well worn donkey tracks to flight operations. Or is that simply the experience of Australian pilots?

If you are referring to AIPA and QF, which I assume you are, that is simply incorrect! With one particular exception, the stats donít support your assertion.

pilotchute
20th Nov 2018, 13:55
Icarus,

As you seem to think 2000 hours and 500 multi is required for the honour to sit in the RHS of a 717, please tell me what is required for say an A380?

2000 jet PIC?

Whilst I'm not a fan of Fresh CPLs in an A320, I think 1000 hours total and 100 multi or a bit of single engine turbine is sufficient.

cessnapete
20th Nov 2018, 17:29
Icarus,

As you seem to think 2000 hours and 500 multi is required for the honour to sit in the RHS of a 717, please tell me what is required for say an A380?

2000 jet PIC?

Whilst I'm not a fan of Fresh CPLs in an A320, I think 1000 hours total and 100 multi or a bit of single engine turbine is sufficient.

Don't know QF A380 experience required.
But over here BA DEP can join straight on to the A380 as F/O (the S/O option not used as all F/O must be qualified for two pilot ops. flown on several A380 routes. ie. Lhr-Chicago, Lhr-Boston)
Min requirements 2000 hr total time with 1000 hrs on jets greater than 25tonnes MTOM.
Also allows Zero Flight Time Conversion, with no Base training requirement.

aussieflyboy
23rd Nov 2018, 01:26
Once Qantas see that 60 - 100 pax are more suited to a B717/F100 sized aircraft and the NT Gov stops subsidising seats it looks like Alliance will be ready to take over the DRW - ASP route:F100/70 DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAINS & F100/70 FIRST OFFICERSAlliance Airlines

Expressions of Interest (ďEOIĒ) Ė Darwin Base
Due to commercial growth in Northern Australia operations, we are currently seeking EOIís for the following positions in our Darwin base:

F100/70 Direct Entry Captains
F100/70 First Officers

Alice Kiwican
23rd Nov 2018, 01:50
Interesting..... However Alliance are already doing the DRW-ASP (and then ADL) for Virgin. Maybe weíll see 2 Alliance Fokkers chasing each other on the route 1 with a QF callsign and 1 a VA callsign.........

Mr Google Head
23rd Nov 2018, 02:33
Interesting..... However Alliance are already doing the DRW-ASP (and then ADL) for Virgin. Maybe weíll see 2 Alliance Fokkers chasing each other on the route 1 with a QF callsign and 1 a VA callsign.........

Isnít it Skywest doing the centre run? Didnít think Alliance were doing. Could be wrong though!

Alice Kiwican
23rd Nov 2018, 04:55
Alliance have been doing the centre run for a few months now. Not sure what happened to VARA (Skywest)

Transition Layer
23rd Nov 2018, 12:46
The whole Alliance arrangement with VA and QF would be hilarious if it wasnít so embarrassing. Changing callsigns and flight numbers at the drop of a hat.

All they do is contribute to stagnation of careers in the two majors by flying cheap, old, unreliable aircraft...management on both sides are to blame but the end result is the customer loses in a big way.

Lapon
23rd Nov 2018, 23:47
All they do is contribute to stagnation of careers in the two majors
That's a somewhat pompous statement isn't it? :rolleyes:

Not everyone has an interest in the two majors, and vice versa.
The guys/girls at the Aliiances etc are absent from the seniority lists of the majors resulting in a career opportunity for someone else.
It would be rather short sighted to suggest every pilots career would be more progressive with VA and QF the only shop in town, more so if you hold that belief from the luxury of already being employed by VA/QF.

I agree that it is the customer that misses out, but I dont think that's as high of a priority to the airlines as the marketing departments would have you believe

Transition Layer
24th Nov 2018, 00:17
Hardly being pompous, I was simply inferring that if this flying was done in house then more people would win.

Alliance is nothing but a contractor, and when the big two donít need them anymore for this flying then what happens? If those jobs were in the majors all along then surely that provides more security and arguably better terms and conditions and hopefully career progression?

Berealgetreal
24th Nov 2018, 00:22
The whole Alliance arrangement with VA and QF would be hilarious if it wasn’t so embarrassing. Changing callsigns and flight numbers at the drop of a hat.

Laughing all the way to the bank. One of the smartest run companies around. Masters of cross hire, been doing it for years. In the mining boom it was Perth, these days its Brisbane. There are nearly more Alliance aircraft in Brisbane than Virgin aircraft. They also know how to run a bargain when buying F100's LOL!!

Another interesting point is that their conditions are much lower than QF/VA, yet their crew survey results run by ALAEA Fed Sec are consistently way above the majors. Go figure.

Isn’t it Skywest doing the centre run? Didn’t think Alliance were doing. Could be wrong though!

Busily yet quietly picking up all the RPT the Ejet did. At the end of the day its not crew cost difference but aircraft cost difference. 1 mil vs 25 mil is always going to win. Thats why the stagnation of careers is taking place. Get used to it as it will continue on for as long as the F100 is flying. Need to scrap all those job and career protection clauses as they're pointless. Any VA new joiner that wants a quick jet command should join VARA as their flying will only grow, the numbers say so.

Not sure if true but I heard the other day that VAA B737 do less ML-SY runs than they did 10 years ago.

Apologies for adding to the thread drift!

Lapon
24th Nov 2018, 01:13
I was simply inferring that if this flying was done in house then more people would win

More QF/VA pilots might win, but pilots who had been rejected or for whatever reason missed those boats would in turn loose, with the net benefit to the greater pilot community being zero.

I would go further to say that a good number of those F100 runs could never justify a 737 service in the first place and the size of pie would simply shrink.

CaptainEmad
24th Nov 2018, 02:19
Can anyone explain how the 717 crews would be shifted to other ports? Do they get a say where, and is it seniority based?

Would a high number allow you to bump someone out of your new preferred base?

Rated De
24th Nov 2018, 06:06
More QF/VA pilots might win, but pilots who had been rejected or for whatever reason missed those boats would in turn loose, with the net benefit to the greater pilot community being zero.

I would go further to say that a good number of those F100 runs could never justify a 737 service in the first place and the size of pie would simply shrink.

Au contraire, since the deregulation of the industry in 1978 airline management have repeatedly shrunken the pie. At least with regard to viable career path.
Pursuit of a lower unit labour cost and 'leverage' over workforce was the centre piece of management strategy for decades. The key weapon in this pursuit was subsidiary and out sourced employment.

Whilst the sectors you refer to may never have justified a 737 it is really a question of what the management focus is.
Using your existing pilot body, keeping the operation in-house and utilising the career and seniority trajectory was one approach..

The other path, very well worn is the use of outsourced contractor workforce with hopefully far less union involvement.


Can anyone explain how the 717 crews would be shifted to other ports? Do they get a say where, and is it seniority based?

One may posit that it all depends what the contract says.

Notthisguy
24th Nov 2018, 07:07
I know a few people who won't be moving, I think Air north and Alliance just got a very high number of suitably qualified applicants..

Berealgetreal
24th Nov 2018, 08:28
Best of luck to all the Cobham DRW 717 crew, hope you find DRW based or good commuting jobs.

Virgin 777 SO and QF Long Haul jobs would be commutable if that helps.

Chocks Away
24th Nov 2018, 12:22
Good point Nothisguy.
Airnorth are very short crewed & haven't been able to crew their whole network, nor can Alliance as they've been depending on call-in payments.
Those displaced crew have a plethora of choices is this pilot's market, both in Australia and overseas if Cobham are stupid enough to "let them go" (the latest management speak isn't it?) instead of allowing them to transfer to another segment of the company.

Outtahere
24th Nov 2018, 23:50
Good point Nothisguy.
......... if Cobham are stupid enough to "let them go" (the latest management speak isn't it?) instead of allowing them to transfer to another segment of the company.
But the cadet scheme will fix it all.

Blitzkrieger
27th Nov 2018, 03:29
Sadly you can add the Cairns base to that list now. I feel terrible for those involved.

dontgive2FACs
27th Nov 2018, 06:10
The Cairns base is closing?

Notthisguy
27th Nov 2018, 08:52
Why can you add the Cairns base to that list?

Lat3ralus
27th Nov 2018, 09:32
Why cairns?

Blitzkrieger
28th Nov 2018, 01:27
Iím told there is deemed to be a surplus of crew there. I donít know any more but Iím sure a redeployment is imminent.

Lat3ralus
28th Nov 2018, 02:39
Until the next round of Qantas intakes...

...think or thwim
1st Dec 2018, 11:45
It appears the Cairns base is downsizing as of March next year in line with the recently announced route restructures. I've heard up to 8 flight crew will be asked to relocate along with similar numbers of cabin crew...

Notthisguy
2nd Dec 2018, 00:03
Yeah, i have just heard this as well.

Looks like the Christmas party this year isn't going to be fun.

Blitzkrieger
2nd Dec 2018, 03:43
With any luck the (rumoured) restrictions on Cobham pilots going to QF will be lifted so that those who want to move on are able to do so. And with any luck such a decision will negate the risk of demotions or redundancies.

...think or thwim
2nd Dec 2018, 08:12
(rumoured) Restrictions appear to have been lifted based on recent start date allocations to cobham crew

Bend alot
2nd Dec 2018, 08:20
Only at Darwin and Cairns??

Notthisguy
2nd Dec 2018, 08:28
Rumoured? I think a few people have their hands on something in writing mate.

It was originally liftered on the 1dt of July after jetstar unfortunately stopped their intake and Qantas have planned this intakes for the next few months, only now I have actually seen people get starts.

Bend alot
2nd Dec 2018, 08:43
Well that is good news for a few for Christmas.

Blitzkrieger
2nd Dec 2018, 10:08
I think a few people have their hands on something in writing mate.

Correct me if Iím wrong but Iím quite sure the practice of placing an embargo on individuals for industrial purposes is illegal. Thatís why I say itís rumoured, but if someone has evidence it would be interesting if it saw the light of day.

notthisguy1
2nd Dec 2018, 12:20
you are 100% correct, I am sure it will see the light of day in the near future.

Blitzkrieger
2nd Dec 2018, 23:38
I do hope so notthisguy1, I fear there would be severe consequences for anyone who produced such evidence, but one can hope.