What is CATASTROPHIC?

[Shadowpurser]

This question has been raised in another thread and there seems to be a grey area as to what it is.

More specifically - Cabin crew can initiate an evacuation in CATASTROPHIC CURCUMSTANCES without contacting the flight deck.

So here we go!

What's your deffinition?
When would you expect to be contacted?
When wouldn't you?
What does your company manual say?

This is a subject that needs to be clarified as I and I'm sure other cabin crew have no wish initiate an evactuation if the pilots think they should have been informed first.

Cabin Crew / FA's reading this, your input is improtant here, so please do post!!!:D

[Captain Scarlet]

The definition has to be subjective. If you think that you should initiate an evacuation and you have heard nothing from the flight deck then go ahead.

I would rather you sent the passengers down the slide when it was unnecessary than left them to burn/suffocate because you hadn't received an evacuation order. :eek: You may be the only person with access to the critical information. If there is not time to communicate you must act.

The Captain who berates you for initiating an evacuation is really upset with himself for not communicating his wishes well enough.:D

[411A]

Lets face facts.

There is "nearly" always time to communicate. To send folks "down the slide" without very good reason is to condemn many to unnecessary injuries.

OTOH, lets take SQ006 as an example. Aircraft has clearly stopped, smoke and flames are clearly entering the cabin, panic has set in, no time to communicate....time to get out, NOW.

Just one example, and I suspect the cabin crew on SQ006 saved many folks with their actions.

This clearly NEEDS to covered in SEP training for cabin crew.

To training departments: are YOU listening? Hello, anybody there?:rolleyes:

[Captain Stable]

It's a good question.

I can't offer any definition that will show exactly where the line lies. But 411A has given a good example.

Many engine failures are decidedly unnerving, and can threaten the safety of the aircraft. That in itself does not make them catastrophic.

I would suggest that a failure that threatens immediate and total loss of the aircraft would be catastrophic, but not much else less than that. Even most cabin fires are not immediately catastrophic, although they can develop that way if not handled correctly.

As 411A says, there is nearly always time to communicate. As was outlined by several people on the thread in RP, in almost every case the first action by CC should be to check with the FD. If you get no response (I don't mean no coherent answer - they may be busy - I mean no response - silence) and, in your judgement, the safety of the passengers is in immediate peril (by which I mean that even a few seconds delay will cause loss of life), then by all means get them off. Don't spend the rest of your life waiting for the captain to tell you to do it.

If, on landing, one of the maingear legs collapses, the resultant noise, vibration and unusual attitude of the fuselage will be very unnerving. All else being equal (i.e. assuming no fire or other failure), a rapid disembarkation would probably be called for. But you would not know the cause of everything you see, hear and feel. It is, however, a relatively minor accident. Despite all the shock value, you should still be communicating with the FD, maintaining CRM, following SOPs, maintaining the crew team structure and teamwork.

I think I would summarise "catastrophic" as being more than damage to the aircraft, as being total loss of the airframe; uncontained and uncontrolled fire; not much else.

[sharpshot]

Perhaps the wording is wrong. Sorry, don't mean to be pedantic, however, Catastrophe = sudden disaster (Oxford Dict.)

I have seen "catastrophic" once and nobody walked away.

There are no doubt occasions when you have time to prepare, or as you are suggesting, taking unilateral action to save life. I hope those better qualified than I can give you the professional advice covering the scenarios whereby you call the shots!


:eek: Hope it never happens..........

[Recover]

It's always an eye-opener when we do the flight crew-cabin crew CRM 'discussions' at SEP. I've heard views from both ends of the spectrum. Some of the cabin crew almost refused to initiate evacuation unless water was involved and others seemed to want to deploy the slides because of a brewer failure (okay, I led about that bit).

The common fear was fire, but so often the scenario will involve an engine and the pilots will be trying to do something about that, probably with a degree of success. The last thing you really want after an RTO and whilst dealing with an engine fire is a load of passengers jumping off your aircraft because someone saw some flames and a member of the cabin crew considered this catastrophic.

My personal view, besides the ditching case, is to consider what is actually in the cabin, versus what's outside. This doesn't negate common sense and it doesn't need to be prescribed, however, if there's fire/smoke in the cabin which cannot be controlled then let's blow the slides. Unless the wings are on fire, if there's nothing in the cabin then give the pilots a while (which will seem like several lifetimes) to diagnose and try to deal with the problem and let the crew know what's going on. At the end of the day the fire extinguishers will probably work their magic on the engines, but the rest can't be stopped from the flight deck.


And.........


Recover