Flybe pilot develops a fear of flying

[crewmeal]

I may not be a pilot but was cabin crew for the best part of 30 years and never come across anything like this during my career, however I can't get my head around this story. I know it's from the DM, but there must be some truth in it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6376879/Flybe-pilot-fired-developing-fear-flying.html

[clark y]

I can name two individuals.
One was a costumer service officer. Many, many years experience. He put it down to too much air crash investigators.
The other was a young pilot. Doesn’t quite know the reasons but did have an engine failure in a light twin on a dark night. Gave up flying and now manages a store.
If you can develop a phobia then hopefully you can get rid of one. Bloody spiders.

[jimjim1]

I know it's from the DM, but there must be some truth in it.

:D :D :D :D

[Herod]

I believe there was a case some thirty years ago of a BA (?) pilot who developed the phobia while in the air. I don't know of the eventual outcome. Can happen to anybody I guess.

[The Ancient Geek]

Anyone can develop a mental health issue at any time - that's life.

[Cows getting bigger]

There are a few examples in the military. Going back a few decades the RAF used to do the same as FlyBe - sack the pilot. They then woke-up and realised that the problem was real and, as an employer, it was their problem. There's a really good piece where an experienced (Tornado?) pilot describes how fear slowly crept-up on him and how he overcame it with professional help. Can't find the reference for the life of me though.

[WilliumMate]

I had been paxing fairly regularly from the age of 5 and never had a problem until I was 30. Booked a BM flight from LHR to AMS to spend a long weekend with an oppo and totally lost it on the flight. I knew it was irrational but every sound, change in engine note, turbulence, hydraulic noise had me a gibbering wreck. Got to Schiphol and had a panic attack at the thought of the flight back. I got the train and ferry.

I knew I had a few flights coming up so reported to the MO who sent me to a psychologist. She reckoned after much discussion that it was not having any control over any events that may happen that caused this episode along with a lack of knowledge of flight itself. I had a few chats with the ships flight commander and he suggested having a few hours instruction at a local flying school to get an understanding of how things 'work'. Did that and never looked back. Fell in love with flying again and as funds improved carried on with the training. May not work for everyone but it sorted me out. As mentioned above it could well have been a mental health episode triggered by stress at work/home, who knows?

[pontifex]

Many years ago I had a ground tour as a personnel officer in a large headquarters dealing with all the junior officer [pilots. The condition was recognised even then (late 60s). It was called pteraphobia. The treatment was a rapid exit trom the force. It seems that the trick cyclists were concerned that it was catching.

[Clandestino]

There's a really good piece where an experienced (Tornado?) pilot describes how fear slowly crept-up on him and how he overcame it with professional help. Can't find the reference for the life of me though.Perhaps this one: "A Seagull's life: Flying Scared" from Air Clues 21 (https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/units/raf-safety-centre/documents/air-clues-issue-21/)? Doesn't have a happy ending, though.

[A Squared]

I may not be a pilot but was cabin crew for the best part of 30 years and never come across anything like this during my career, however I can't get my head around this story. I know it's from the DM, but there must be some truth in it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6376879/Flybe-pilot-fired-developing-fear-flying.html

Well, taking the article at face value, he had a mental health issue that manifested itself in way that were disruptive to the company operations and for a year and a half, the airline bent over backwards to get him back in the air, including letting him ride around on the jumpseat to get used to being in an airplane, and letting him return to duty with an extra pilot in board to take over in case he became unable to perform his duties mid-flight, and despite that, he still wasn't able to function at his job. So, they offered him a non-flying position.

Unless large parts of this have been misrepresented in the article, it seems to me that the airline bent over backward to accommodate him.

Hypothetically, lets say he returned to flying, and was involved in an accident where mental fitness was suspected to be a causal factor. How would this story play in the media and the courtroom?

[student88]

Its hardly a surprise given the ever increasing stress and pressure pilots are put under in todays flight decks. As one of our colleagues mentions above, mental health issues can develop at any time in a pilots career.

Unfortunately I think this story will be filed under the 'strange but true/in other news' category when it probably deserves more critical attention.

[wiggy]

Well, taking the article at face value, he had a mental health issue that manifested itself in way that were disruptive to the company operations and for a year and a half, the airline bent over backwards to get him back in the air, including letting him ride around on the jumpseat to get used to being in an airplane, and letting him return to duty with an extra pilot in board to take over in case he became unable to perform his duties mid-flight, and despite that, he still wasn't able to function at his job. So, they offered him a non-flying position.

Unless large parts of this have been misrepresented in the article, it seems to me that the airline bent over backward to accommodate him.



Yes have to say to me it looks like that from what is written in the DM piece... It looks to me simply from what has been written that the problem is not a lack of support from the company, it is that from strictly legal POV a procedural step in the dismissal process was missed, and it is that failure of process which has led to the Judge's decisions.

[Pontius]

I'm with A Squared on this one. If the article is accurate then the company have given him ample opportunity to return to work. He's done it once before and it didn't work out. Why should another attempt be any different? What should an employer bend over backwards twice to try and accommodate someone who isn't suited to the job? They don't HAVE to give him a job if he's not capable of carrying it out and if I were Flybe I wouldn't be wasting time and resources on someone who is almost certainly going to repeat his behaviour in XX months and be useless to me, as an employer.

Also, why should Flybe have to consider alternative employment? He was hired as a pilot, not ops personnel (or whatever), so he either does that job or applies for any other like someone else would have to.

I know I'm not all touchy-feely, valuing and inclusive of all needs but if he can't do the job of a pilot then best he goes and looks for a job that he can do.

[Reverserbucket]

Details of the Tribunal can be read here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5bcdb277ed915d4349d7c03c/Mr_Guest_v_Flybe_Ltd_-_1301761.2017_judgment_Final.pdf
Interesting that very little by way of documented evidence from the numerous meetings leading up to the company decision was provided by the respondent. It seems the only notes taken at one meeting were shredded after the claimant declined the ground-based safety role. I fully appreciate the company position regarding safety risk management but you would think a PLC would have someone present to take notes, surely?

[G-MILF]

I'm with A Squared on this one. If the article is accurate then the company have given him ample opportunity to return to work. He's done it once before and it didn't work out. Why should another attempt be any different? What should an employer bend over backwards twice to try and accommodate someone who isn't suited to the job? They don't HAVE to give him a job if he's not capable of carrying it out and if I were Flybe I wouldn't be wasting time and resources on someone who is almost certainly going to repeat his behaviour in XX months and be useless to me, as an employer.

Also, why should Flybe have to consider alternative employment? He was hired as a pilot, not ops personnel (or whatever), so he either does that job or applies for any other like someone else would have to.

I know I'm not all touchy-feely, valuing and inclusive of all needs but if he can't do the job of a pilot then best he goes and looks for a job that he can do.

The point the tribunal is making isn't that the individual wasn't capable, it was that Flybe didn't follow its own HR procedures. Had they have done, the tribunal agrees that it is most likely the individual could have been fairly dismissed on capability grounds. It is very common in the tribunal system that they find against a respondent purely on the basis they didn't follow process rather than disagree with the outcome.

[macdo]

Quite an interesting thread on Military here: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/605217-scared-flying.html

I have encountered one case of this in my career, the guy had had a military background but he was so stressed on every flight it was palpable on the flight deck. Whether that was fear of flying or the responsibility of flying I'll never know. He eventually retired voluntarily.

[Skipname]

The point the tribunal is making isn't that the individual wasn't capable, it was that Flybe didn't follow its own HR procedures. Had they have done, the tribunal agrees that it is most likely the individual could have been fairly dismissed on capability grounds. It is very common in the tribunal system that they find against a respondent purely on the basis they didn't follow process rather than disagree with the outcome.

That may very well be the case, however ruling to reinstate him back to his pilot position is idiotic. Would the judge and his family in this case fly with Flybe knowing the guy will be the co-pilot or captain of the flight? I don't think so. Then why put other people at risk? If there is an incident or accident involving this individual who will be responsible for it?

If it is true that Flybe didn't follow their own procedure and the judge is ruling against the company because of it then a payout would have been a more appropriate ruling taking into consideration the safety factor involved.

[A Squared]

The point the tribunal is making isn't that the individual wasn't capable, it was that Flybe didn't follow its own HR procedures. Had they have done, the tribunal agrees that it is most likely the individual could have been fairly dismissed on capability grounds. It is very common in the tribunal system that they find against a respondent purely on the basis they didn't follow process rather than disagree with the outcome.

So the result was equitable and reasonable, but because of some procedural detail missed in reaching that result, we're going to reverse that reasonable, equitable result?

[wiggy]

So the result was equitable and reasonable, but because of some procedural detail missed in reaching that result, we're going to reverse that reasonable, equitable result?

Whether he will be reinstated or not has yet to be decided....final few lines of the DM report state:

Mr Guest is seeking reinstatement as his remedy for unfair dismissal.

Unless the parties are able to resolve this, the matter will be decided by a remedy hearing later this month.



I guess it is possible he won’t get his job back but might might get a payment.

[fantom]

I'm not on anybody's side here but it seems odd that the employer should have to pay a pilot who can't fly.

[richardthethird]

Agree that the rules are madness. Isn’t it a shame that certain individuals can’t take a bit of responsibility for themselves? I.e. you can now no longer fulfil the requirements of the role, so give it up and find something else to do... Don’t expect the company to pay you on 100% leave!

[BirdmanBerry]

I'm just at the final stages of a similar dismissal in my job (not related to flying in any way) and the hoops an employer has to jump through are numerous. employees today have so many rights.

I have bundles of notes, emails and everything that ever been said between myself and the employee and still the solicitor is nervous to make sure everything is covered.

We've had to try and offer alternative positions to the employee to show we have done everything we can.

Each meeting brought out another matter and then we had to have another meeting to discuss that and so on....

[The Ancient Geek]

An employee with a mental health illness should be given the same sick leave and possible medical retirement privileges as an employee with a physical illness. Anything less is discriminatory.

[601]

An employee with a mental health illness should be given the same sick leave and possible medical retirement privileges as an employee with a physical illness. Anything less is discriminatory.

If you had a brain tumor and just before the op to remove it, you found out that the surgeon had a phobia towards brain matter, was relieved of his position but one "i" was not dotted and the hospital was forced to re-employ him, what would your position be?

[Loose rivets]

After many nights of flying to Spain in the bad old days with no radar, I found my young co-pilot self in the middle of one heck of a storm. Thrown out the tops, and falling back into the flashing mess, we twice went below the safety heigh for the mountains. Many times the horizon bar hid behind the curtains, and one 20 minute leg took 45 minutes. I couldn't believe it when my skipper said we'd better hurry as we were so late. Blood and sick had to be cleaned off the cabin roof. I planned shoving over to the east but we were soon in it again. We popped out into fantastic clear skies near Toulouse, but it was then we had a 4" hole blown through the right wing. It went around the fuel and out in line with the opposite hole.

The skipper had asked me to fly and had just flicked his Zippo lighter as the bang happened. The image of his staring eyes still makes me laugh.

So, it had its lighter moments. (sorry)

Anyway, it was the next night that a bW$%^ great bolt hit the ground as I was driving to LHR. I chickened out. I don't think I've ever admitted this before, but that's what I did. I went sick.

I gave myself a good talking to about how long it had taken me to get to this point, and was I going to give up now, kind of conversation. Next night, back in it, but with a new determination that seemed to last the next decades. Of course, having radar and being two miles higher helped.

[cabsav]

Just in the interest of balance, BALPA have replied to the press article.BALPA response on pilot 'fear of flying' storyRelease date: 12/11/2018



BALPA has responded to misrepresented claims in the media that a Flybe pilot was dismissed for fear of flying (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/flybe-pilot-fear-of-flying-sacked-panic-attacks-unfair-dismissal-q400-ejet-a8629631.html).

A BALPA spokesperson said:

"The reason for Matthew Guest's dismissal has been misrepresented in the press. Contrary to the press reports, Matthew did not experience 'fear of flying'. The up-to-date medical evidence, as reported in the judgment, cites a temporary social anxiety. At the time Flybe decided to dismiss Matthew, all of the relevant medical experts confirmed that he was fit to return to work. The Civil Aviation Authority’s consultant had concluded that Matthew was fit to fly subject to a satisfactory medical flight test. Nevertheless, Flybe decided to dismiss Matthew without considering the up-to-date medical evidence and without giving Matthew an opportunity to make his case to the ultimate decision maker; Luke Farajallah, the company’s then Chief Operating Officer. The Tribunal concluded that no reasonable employer would have decided to dismiss Matthew in these circumstances.

“Matthew took the sensible decision to request time off to deal with his condition and was unfairly dismissed as a result. We’re disappointed this has been so widely and inaccurately reported and it shows there is a long way to go in recognising and supporting workers affected by mental health issues. This could be hugely damaging to Matthew in gaining future employment and also to the likelihood of other pilots reporting similar mental health conditions to their employers in the future.”

[A Squared]

Just in the interest of balance, BALPA have replied to the press article.BALPA response on pilot 'fear of flying' storyRelease date: 12/11/2018



BALPA has responded to misrepresented claims in the media that a Flybe pilot was dismissed for fear of flying (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/flybe-pilot-fear-of-flying-sacked-panic-attacks-unfair-dismissal-q400-ejet-a8629631.html).

A BALPA spokesperson said:

"....... ”

OK, everyplace that the Daily Mail article refers to fear of flying, lets replace that with "social anxiety of a degree which interferes with him performing as a flight crew" I don't see that the situation has changed meaningfully.

[Lord Farringdon]

OK, everyplace that the Daily Mail article refers to fear of flying, lets replace that with "social anxiety of a degree which interferes with him performing as a flight crew" I don't see that the situation has changed meaningfully.

Well it changes the context by removing the sensationalist click bait crap out of it. One definition of social anxiety is "the fear of being judged and evaluated negatively by other people, leading to feelings of inadequacy, inferiority, self-consciousness, embarrassment, humiliation, and depression." Probably enough there to say this guy has a mental health issue and shouldn't be on the flight deck of a commercial airliner. But in fairness to him he voluntarily withdrew himself and called in sick rather than hiding his problem.

Funny really but I can relate to a kind of similar event that I have only recognised reading this thread. I was a local examiner and route checker for non-pilot military aircrew in a previous life. One of our top guys on the squadron showed signs of withdrawal which no one took any real notice of until he started making rookies errors while flying. We brought forward his six monthly check ride and I was instructed to assess him. I failed him on the check ride on things I couldn't believe including pre-flight checklist failures missing challenge and response checklist items or just not responding to them. I reported to the CO and recommended he be suspended from flying pending assessment for return to flying duties whereupon the CO could not believe that this top guy could suddenly be in that position. He interviewed him and received very little feedback or explanation to his questions and was left with no option but to approve my recommendation. The hope was that we could work on this guy and get back on the horse again but after 6 months in a ground job he left the military. He had over 5000 hours on type and there was no suggestion he was scared of flying but his actions, inactions and withdrawal seem to fit well with the definition of social anxiety now I have seen this.

[A Squared]

Just in the interest of balance, BALPA have replied to the press article.BALPA response on pilot 'fear of flying' story

Release date: 12/11/2018



BALPA has responded to misrepresented claims in the media that a Flybe pilot was dismissed for fear of flying (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/flybe-pilot-fear-of-flying-sacked-panic-attacks-unfair-dismissal-q400-ejet-a8629631.html).

A BALPA spokesperson said:
At the time Flybe decided to dismiss Matthew, all of the relevant medical experts confirmed that he was fit to return to work.

By way of contrast, here's what the Mr Guest's Therapist's final report prior to the termination *actually* said:

Whilst Matthew has made impressive progress in working in a more targeted was on the underlying causes for the social anxiety, and ways of managing the symptoms, and has managed all the behavioural experiments well, it is difficult to predict the longevity of his progress until he is placed back in the flight deck and tests this out…”

Seems if you're going to complain about a news source misrepresenting claims, then you probably ought to refrain from doing so yourself.

For context, bear in mind that he had already been though two cycles of "Doctor says I'm good to go back to work" then after going back to work: "WHooops, guess I wasn't good to go back to work after all".

[Reverserbucket]

without giving Matthew an opportunity to make his case to the ultimate decision maker
Not meaning to make light of this but I cant help but feel this was the reason the employer chose the path they did.
Worth noting as well, that he was not dismissed out of hand but offered an alternative role as Flight Safety Support Officer based in Exeter.
This was a fixed 12 month role with existing pay protections and hotel accommodation covered with potential for remote working (he was BHX based).
In subsequent correspondence the claimant was told that if he rejected this role his employment would end on 24 March 2017 with three months’ pay in lieu of notice.
Which he did.

The BALPA statement says that The Tribunal concluded that no reasonable employer would have decided to dismiss Matthew in these circumstances.
Yet the Tribunal judgement finds that ..2. Had the respondent acted fairly there was a two thirds chance that it would have dismissed the claimant; and any compensatory award would be reduced accordingly.
Not quite the same in my view and therefore more about procedural fairness rather than a question of fitness to fly.

[Vessbot]

If you had a brain tumor and just before the op to remove it, you found out that the surgeon had a phobia towards brain matter, was relieved of his position but one "i" was not dotted and the hospital was forced to re-employ him, what would your position be?

I don't see how this is a response to the text you quoted. It's a non sequitur. You quoted:

"An employee with a mental health illness should be given the same sick leave and possible medical retirement privileges as an employee with a physical illness. Anything less is discriminatory."

... and this should apply to the brain surgeon the same as the pilot, the same as any other employee.

[Parson]

I've been involved in a couple of 'employment issues' recently - not concerning me but as employee support. This is about whether Flybe followed their own procedures rather than fitness to fly.