Ryanair 737-800 impounded at Bordeaux-Mérignac airport

[FougaMagister]

Ouch! :ouch:



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/976x1078/img_20181109_wa0002_7f9294a032d93772b7135216563a3a3d972812cf .jpg


A Ryanair 737-800 was seized (impounded) yesterday at Bordeaux-Mérignac airport at the request of the DGAC. The French CAA took this action as a last resort to recover subsidies the airline received to operate to Angoulême airport, and which the European Commission ruled illegal back in 2014.The wheels of justice turn slowly... One wonders what will be Ryanair's next move: bite the bulet and eventually refund the local authorities, or ignore the request yet again and leave their aircraft to rot there...

Cheers :cool:

[DaveReidUK]

The bailiffs are reportedly looking for just over €0.5 million from Ryanair.

France sends in bailiffs to seize Ryanair plane on tarmac at Bordeaux airport (https://www.thelocal.fr/20181109/french-officials-send-in-bailiffs-to-seize-ryanair-plane-on-tarmac)(photo is not the seized aircraft)

[Aso]

There is also a rumor that the Dutch authorities are planning something similar as Ryanair has disregarded the judgement of the court regarding the Eindhoven crew by firing the staff or still forcing them to accept another base. Let's bring the popcorn out. :D

[Ancient-Mariner]

I wonder what the position is regarding Compensation from Ryanair to passengers delayed due the seizure?

[Jet Jockey A4]

I wonder what the position is regarding Compensation from Ryanair to passengers delayed due the seizure?

None of course because they will be calling it "An act of God". LOL

[SMT Member]

I wonder what the position is regarding Compensation from Ryanair to passengers delayed due the seizure?

Since its a situation Ryanair could have prevented by paying what they own, passengers delayed by the consequences of not paying are certainly eligible for EU261 compensation. That's 149 x 400EUR for this flight alone, plus any other flights which may have been delayed as a consequence of the aircraft being unable to service the schedule.

[fox niner]

This Ryanair scrutiny thing is really gaining momentum. Expecting more of this shortly. Popcorn, anyone?

[DirtyProp]

The bailiffs are reportedly looking for just over €0.5 million from Ryanair.

France sends in bailiffs to seize Ryanair plane on tarmac at Bordeaux airport (https://www.thelocal.fr/20181109/french-officials-send-in-bailiffs-to-seize-ryanair-plane-on-tarmac)(photo is not the seized aircraft)
What if several other airports "served" by Ryr start acting the same? This might set a precedent.

[DaveReidUK]

What if several other airports "served" by Ryr start acting the same? This might set a precedent.

It wasn't a dispute between the airport and Ryanair. The bailiffs were acting on behalf of the regional government.

Ryanair has now apparently agreed to pay up.

[wiggy]

Yes...it was the Department of the Charente that finally lost patience with FR... the impounding of the aircraft was then approved by the DGAC.

https://www.sudouest.fr/2018/11/09/le-departement-de-la-charente-fait-saisir-un-avion-de-ryanair-a-bordeaux-5551551-813.php

[romiglups]

French news channels now tell that Ryanair paid the fine in less than 24 hours and that the plane has been released.

[His dudeness]

French news channels now tell that Ryanair paid the fine in less than 24 hours and that the plane has been released.


Lets hope with a hefty interest and fees on top... if a company does not pay its dues, does not follow the ruling of a court, isn´t it then not un-trustable ? Shouldn´t the authorities pull the AOC until there is proof that their apparent disregard for the law and justice in these cases is not a mirror of what they do in their operation ? As a pilot in Germany one can loose its "ZÜP" when convicted of certain things and the suitability of ones character for the job is in question when you don´t follow the law and regs...

[KelvinD]

It seems the aircraft may have been EI-EBG which arrived shortly before 16:30 GMT as FR1782 but appears not to have left again on the scheduled return flight and in fact may still be on the ground at Bordeaux.

[DaveReidUK]

It seems the aircraft may have been EI-EBG which arrived shortly before 16:30 GMT as FR1782 but appears not to have left again on the scheduled return flight and in fact may still be on the ground at Bordeaux.

It was indeed.

Ryanair positioned another B738 to Bordeaux, using their trademark unlucky RYR13 flight ID, to operate the delayed FR1783 back to Stansted, finally arriving about four and a half hours late.

[Blind Squirrel]

The directors of Ryanair are often prone to speak and act as though the laws of the land do not apply to them. That is, I believe, a mistaken calculation on their part.

[jthjth]

The directors of Ryanair are often prone to speak and act as though the laws of the land do not apply to them. That is, I believe, a mistaken calculation on their part.
Exactly. As a humble passenger who has to travel to various obscure places in Europe for work I’ve had to recently make the case for flying a two leg flight with a major carrier instead of a direct flight with Ryanair at a quarter of the price. My project manager agreed on the basis of “it’s Ryanair and I suppose you do want to know you are going to get home.” This takes it a stage further. It’s one thing treating the staff and passengers with contempt, but when the same extends to the statutory authorities, you start to wonder what else they are not doing that they should be. What other regulations do they think do not apply to them? They are firmly on my no fly list now, and this extends to a lot of work colleagues.

[BigFrank]

The directors of Ryanair are often prone to speak and act as though the laws of the land do not apply to them. That is, I believe, a mistaken calculation on their part.

Au contraire, mon petit chou.

The reason this is news (sic) and that a number of regular posters here are currently stuffing their mouths with popcorn is because your assertion is wholly incorrect; at least to date.

Any dispassionate observer cannot but come to the conclusion that the company in question, and the senior executives thereof, especially though not exclusively Ducksie his'self, have been able to judge to a fine t exactly what the (non) consequences would be of their cocking-a-snook at the authorities from Malin Head to Agia Napa. And if you don't agree with me, just tell me what 100,00€ invested in the company when it first went public would be worth now.

Has the EU28, soon to be EU27, ver finally turned, you ask.

Me, notwithstanding M Macron's sudden hard man act, I'm not holding my breath.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Any dispassionate observer cannot but come to the conclusion that the company in question, and the senior executives thereof, especially though not exclusively Ducksie his'self, have been able to judge to a fine t exactly what the (non) consequences would be of their cocking-a-snook at the authorities
To the ordinary punter, though, getting an aeroplane (full of ordinary punters) arrested because they haven't paid their bills looks like one (or perhaps more) of

monumental incompetence, which makes one question their competence to fly aeroplanes safely
they don't give a **** about their passengers
they're going down the tubes and couldn't scrape the cash together.

Now, they won't have lost my business as a result of this, as I'm one of those who prefers to walk to the destination rather than fly Ryanair, but surely not all of their ordinary punters enjoy being treated in this way?

[DaveReidUK]

To the ordinary punter, though, getting an aeroplane (full of ordinary punters) arrested because they haven't paid their bills looks like one (or perhaps more) of

monumental incompetence, which makes one question their competence to fly aeroplanes safely
they don't give a **** about their passengers
they're going down the tubes and couldn't scrape the cash together.

Now, they won't have lost my business as a result of this, as I'm one of those who prefers to walk to the destination rather than fly Ryanair, but surely not all of their ordinary punters enjoy being treated in this way?

Ryanair quite likely don't give a toss.

They have been hanging on to half a million Euros that wasn't theirs for the last 4 years.

The interest on that alone will more than make up for a bit of adverse publicity, a disrupted schedule and a few dozen p*ssed off passengers.

[ph-sbe]

There is also a rumor that the Dutch authorities are planning something similar as Ryanair has disregarded the judgement of the court regarding the Eindhoven crew by firing the staff or still forcing them to accept another base. Let's bring the popcorn out. :D

Except that it doesn't really work like that in .nl.

First of all, nothing prevents Ryanair from closing the base. The court simply mandates that Ryanair continues to pay wages and ensures that the flight crew remain current.

Second, this is not a full judgment. This is merely a temporary judgment which can be easily appealed.

Third, even if Ryanair violates the terms of the judgement, the flight crew still needs to initiate enforcement action. This is not that simple.

Fourth, this judgement is very, very thin. All Ryanair needs to do is produce proper financial statements on appeal, which indicate that the base is not financially viable.

Fifth, every Dutchman will know the phrase: "don't bite the hand that feeds you". You strike, there are consequences.

That said: as far as I am concerned they all owe it to themselves. Everybody knows Ryanair is one of the most ****ty aviation employers in Europe, who treat their employees like trash. You accept employment there, you know that at some point, you'll be fscked as well.

Moral of the story: don't work for ****ty companies like this, and they'll go out of business soon.

[Sonikt]

The reason this is news... is because your assertion is wholly incorrect; at least to date.

Any dispassionate observer cannot but come to the conclusion that the company in question... have been able to judge to a fine t exactly what the (non) consequences would be of their cocking-a-snook at the authorities

And there's the rub

You can get away with it for so long, until you don't.

At which point the whole dirty scheme becomes a stinking pile of previously uncosted liabilities and everyone starts asking why no one noticed all this before (apart from the few people who did notice, obviously)

These things do have a tendency to snowball

Corperate history is littered with examples of institutions who convinced themselves they were untouchable, right before the whole thing unwound very quickly, in an 'emporer's new clothes' moment.

One only has to look to the global banking crisis, or dot com before that.

I would add that stellar growth, seemingly unaffected by the forces of nature and economic cycles, has of itself so often been seen in hindsight to be a clear indication that not all was adding up.

[flash8]

Excellent response Sonikt... and some acute observations!

[EIFFS]

And there's the rub

You can get away with it for so long, until you don't.

At which point the whole dirty scheme becomes a stinking pile of previously uncosted liabilities and everyone starts asking why no one noticed all this before (apart from the few people who did notice, obviously)

These things do have a tendency to snowball

Corperate history is littered with examples of institutions who convinced themselves they were untouchable, right before the whole thing unwound very quickly, in an 'emporer's new clothes' moment.

One only has to look to the global banking crisis, or dot com before that.

I would add that stellar growth, seemingly unaffected by the forces of nature and economic cycles, has of itself so often been seen in hindsight to be a clear indication that not all was adding up.

There is a world of difference between the .com bubble where certain companies were worth billions but had never made a cent in profits, some are still out there Tesla are worth more than Ford or GM but only ever made a profit in the last quarter, ditto Amazon, meanwhile in Dublin the pile it high sell it cheap policy has seen them become the biggest airline by passenger numbers in Europe and very cash rich.

A very large number of their staff costs are contracted and can be easily disposed of should need to, even if fuel went to $200 pb they could park a large part of their fleet and ride it out having cut their personnel costs to zero.

The only thing that would likely see the company in serious difficulty would be a series of high profile high casualty accidents that pointed to safety failings on their part and that simply isn’t going to happen, their crew training to date has been top notch, ditto their line maintenance, the bottom line is that Ryanair understand when to yield and when to hold, who cares if your seen as the bully in the play ground if it’s become your play ground.

That 2018 has been a difficult year for them in terms of negative PR is not in doubt, but passenger numbers were up 11% in October YoY, the share price may be off but most in this sector are the same and investors are not bothered about publicity over staff allegedly sleeping on the floor, the brutal sacking of same is for investors a sign of strength not weakness that will make others think twice hanging their dirty washing out in public.

My work travel is paid for by my employer and i normally have a choice of carriers and I try not to use Ryanair in the main because of the constant selling on board of crap oftern in very poorly spoken English, but BA these days is much the same, the irony is that Aer Lingus are way better than than BA despite being in the same IAG group, Vueling don’t impress me much either and I wouldn’t be in the least surprised to see them mess up.

So FR will pay up when and only when it suits them or they have a gun held to their heads as in this case, it’s small beans, maybe a couple hours profit or 20 minutes of revenue, they know nobody likes them, they know they are the cheapest and they simply don’t care what people think, this isn’t a bubble that’s about to burst.

[45989]

Exactly. As a humble passenger who has to travel to various obscure places in Europe for work I’ve had to recently make the case for flying a two leg flight with a major carrier instead of a direct flight with Ryanair at a quarter of the price. My project manager agreed on the basis of “it’s Ryanair and I suppose you do want to know you are going to get home.” This takes it a stage further. It’s one thing treating the staff and passengers with contempt, but when the same extends to the statutory authorities, you start to wonder what else they are not doing that they should be. What other regulations do they think do not apply to them? They are firmly on my no fly list now, and this extends to a lot of work colleagues.


I do'nt ever use them if there is an alternative no matter how long to get from A to B. Have been caught out several times by late ryr flights (never an apology even enroute) and idiot transit rules in the UK

[Rated De]

meanwhile in Dublin the pile it high sell it cheap policy has seen them become the biggest airline by passenger numbers in Europe and very cash rich.


Passenger numbers may be one thing and lower labour costs another, however this this misses the inherent weakness in the Ryan Air strategy.
Fond of borrowing from Southwest, Ryan Air never noticed that Herb Kelleher said:

"You can have the highest revenue airline, or the lowest cost airline and still goes broke. Neither matters on its own, it is the gap between the two that matters." (Paraphrased)

As such the inherent weakness in the low fare model is that yield is low and difficult to find, thus the focus on cost. Whilst axiomatically their labour cost is lower, their margins are narrow.
All those passengers rapidly disappear when only paying pennies for a flight, 'patrons' are price loyal only. After all as demonstrated repeatedly, their customer service is hardly leading the industry. Ryan Air need persistent high Load factors otherwise that cash you speak of rapidly evaporates.

Europe is littered with Low Fare Airline failures.

Ryan Air is vulnerable.

[Sonikt]

There is a world of difference between the .com bubble where certain companies were worth billions but had never made a cent in profits, some are still out there Tesla are worth more than Ford or GM but only ever made a profit in the last quarter, ditto Amazon, meanwhile in Dublin the pile it high sell it cheap policy has seen them become the biggest airline by passenger numbers in Europe and very cash rich....So FR will pay up when and only when it suits them or they have a gun held to their heads as in this case, it’s small beans, maybe a couple hours profit or 20 minutes of revenue, they know nobody likes them, they know they are the cheapest and they simply don’t care what people think, this isn’t a bubble that’s about to burst.

Thanks for such a comprehensive and detailed response. Have you been reading Ryanair's anual report, or did you perhaps write it?

The fact that such a rebuttal is felt needed speaks volumes.

What about the banking crisis? They were mostly cash rich but I recall it was the unresolved liabilities that unstuck them...

But what do I know, I'm just a casual observer, so I guess history will have to be my judge.

[Blind Squirrel]

The only thing that would likely see the company in serious difficulty would be a series of high profile high casualty accidents that pointed to safety failings on their part and that simply isn’t going to happen...


If that is the assumption on which FR is operating, they're dancing on the edge of a volcano. Goodwill never matters until one actually needs it. It won't take a series of serious accidents to leave this airline in deep trouble. One would be sufficient. By this point, its responsables have made so many injudicious, if not positively inflammatory, public statements indicating their undisguised disdain for the regulatory authorities and the rule of law that the most inept counsel for the plaintiffs would find it impossible not to have a field day in court. Any monetary verdict would pale beside the media barrage demanding that FR be subjected to the most rigorous scrutiny by aviation administrations in its ongoing operations, in light of that same demonstrated contempt for external scrutiny and accountability. And if FR's directors express themselves in the manner they already have in public, we may be certain that some truly explosive material is to be found in their internal documents, awaiting an order for discovery by a civil court.

Telling sovereign governments to go to hell is never a wise business strategy. I fancy that FR will be taught that lesson the hard way, in all likelihood sooner rather than later. When one side has (i) men and women with guns and handcuffs; (ii) jails; and (iii) unlimited financial resources, and the other has none of those things, confrontations between them tend to conclude in only one way.

[blind pew]

And have witnessed the massive slump in tourism, increase in crime and poverty in the Gard region due to the French screwing Ryanair who moved to Northern Italy creating a boom there. Knock on effect is the other airlines virtually vanishing...ended up taking the TGV to the UK!

[ersin737]

Does Ryan air explain something about the impound in France? I did not see the statement from a company or their social media. another question, why they have been waiting so far? I don t know but all that happened does not any make sense. especially when we are talking about the Ryan air.

[Sonikt]

As such the inherent weakness in the low fare model is that yield is low and difficult to find...Ryan Air need persistent high Load factors otherwise that cash you speak of rapidly evaporates.

Good points and hit on a very significant revenue issue here for FR.

With regard to yeild, the negative effect of a drop in load factor is magnified due to the escalator in the yeild pricing model e.g. the last few pax booking may pay 10x as much as the first few pax pay for their tickets, so a drop of say 10% in load factor could reduce overall revenue by perhaps 30% or more.

In this respect one could argue that FR profit model is not so very different to EK, whereby the cattle barely covers the operating cost and the premium pax contribute all of the profit

Unfortunately FR do not have a premium product like EK. What FR are essentially selling at premium price is time and convenience i.e. these are mostly late booking, time and reliability sensitive pax e.g. business travelers or other people who need to travel urgently at a specific time.

FR reputation for reliability is now shot to peices and will take time to restore. FR aggressive posturing in the face of strikes actually does them no favours in this respect, because it prolongs the uncertainty.

Business travelers now have a perfect argument why their employer should put them on a proper airline instead of FR, even if it costs a lot more. Private, urgent travelers will make similar calculations.

Ryanair have admitted this problem and their response is to trim the yeild slope, most especially reducing the price of the most expensive seats. So the recent increases in load factor are masking a much more significant drop on the revenue side, simply because they are having to sell the tickets cheaper to fill the planes.

As a secondary effect, pax are then discouraged from bidding up ticket prices rapidly by booking early, because the pricing remains low for longer. The phycological effect of the yeild price escalator is reversed in a kind of pricing death spiral.

Essentially, FR have themselves destroyed the most profitable aspects of their own product offer

Bang goes the yeild...