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frazmac
4th Nov 2018, 19:47
Hi all.

I have recently obtained my EASA PPL, and intend on buying an aircraft, perhaps jointly with a friend. We both intend to obtain an IR(r) relatively quickly, perhaps followed by an IR in due course.

I would prefer to have something with at least 6 seats, an excellent avionics package, and a reasonable amount of comfort.

I travel around the UK and parts of Europe regularly on business, so I would like something which is reasonably quick and has a decent range.

As I learnt to fly in a PA28, I have mainly been looking at Piper Saratogas so far, but have also looked at the Piper Malibu. The budget will extend to around $300,000, although there may be a little room for an increase if required.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be most suitable, or alternative suggestions or observations?

Thanks in advance.

Jan Olieslagers
4th Nov 2018, 20:05
Some more questions:
* do you want oxygen, from bottles and a breathing piece, or even a pressurised cabin?
* will you consider a turboprop?
* what runway do you have available? length? surface? There is a Saratoga based at my homefield, but the 600m grass runway is barely long enough for it.

The Ancient Geek
4th Nov 2018, 20:36
Take a good look at a Cessna 210, it fits your question and is a damn nice aircraft if you can find a good one.
Who are you going to put in those 6 seats, Very few aircraft will allow you to carry 6 adults and full fuel so
there will always be a compromise between load and range.

9 lives
4th Nov 2018, 21:44
If you're a recent PPL it would be wise to consider your aircraft aspirations in terms of stepping stones. Stepping right into a continental performing six seat aircraft may be expecting a bit much of yourself. Asking for a quote to be insured on such and aircraft could be a helpful indicator of this. Certainly the responsibility you take when you take five passengers is big. Five more people each with their expectations and agenda can put a lot of pressure on you as a pilot to undertake or continue a flight which may be pushing your skills. You and two passengers should be your early piloting objective. Consider a decent four seat aircraft first, and build your experience for a few hundred hours, and a few distant trips first. A Cessna 182, or Piper Dakota could be good choices.

A and C
5th Nov 2018, 05:34
There is a reason in the USA they call some high performance types Doctor killers, wealthy high achievers with more money than piloting skill buy these aircraft and get into situations that their skill level can’t get them out of.

Take the advice of 9 lives that is written above and buy an aircraft that you can build your experience and piloting skills and then step up to the next level.

Sam Rutherford
5th Nov 2018, 11:47
FG Saratoga handles/flies almost identically to any PA28 with wobbly prop and no gear to leave up.

Six seats, 150+kts, job done. You'll get a lot of change from $300K as well...

Jan Olieslagers
5th Nov 2018, 11:51
The "doctor killer" factor might be quite relevant, yes. Perhaps best to do some trips with a rented plane, first? That will allow you to hone your skills AND to make sure that this is really what you (and a partner, perhaps?) really want.

Also, be careful about sharing the plane with someone else. Even if good company for an evening out, that doesn't necessarily mean good company for spending several hours together, in a rather confined space.

abgd
5th Nov 2018, 12:15
Are the 6 seats for family or employees?

9 lives
5th Nov 2018, 13:44
Six seats, 150+kts, job done.

Yes, in the hands of an experienced pilot. At 150 knots, things happen fast for a new pilot, and those other five people can be very distracting. As new pilots practice longer flights in less demanding circumstances, the basic skills will develop and the demands of flying the plane will take less of the total available attention of the pilot, allowing that pilot to divert the needed attention to passengers, new geographical areas, and then the abnormal situation which occurs from time to time.

I can remember one of my first flights flying the Cessna 310 with four passengers, husband, wife, daughter and friend. Conditions were ideal for the flight. At 180 knots, things happened faster than I expected and (long before the days of GPS) I arrived much sooner than I expected to my destination, so there I was at 6500 feet, doing 180 knots, entering the control zone - I errantly left myself a lot of getting down to do! - My poor planning. So, my descent was a bit more rapid than I should have undertaken. I was okay with it, and husband toughed it out, but the 500+FPM descent (entirely my fault to need to do) was misery for the three ladies in the back. There were "ows" and tears from ears popping, and the sense of speed. It was no bug deal for an experienced aviator, but I had overlooked the fact that not everyone who boards your aircraft is as experienced as they, or you think. Ultimately, no harm done, but I felt unprofessional. The passengers distracted me terribly on the way down, while I reminded myself to focus on arrival checklists. It was the entry point to a stupid accident. I prevented the stupid accident with nearly adequate airmanship, and the whole event was very memorable for me.

Walk before you run....

Sam Rutherford
5th Nov 2018, 13:53
Whilst not nullifying your comments, three pax can be as distracting as five - and 150kts is likely to be only 20-30kts faster than the four seat they might otherwise buy. Your 180kts example is a considerably more significant (50%) increase on 120kts...

You should also be careful about buying something you might 'grow out of' very quickly.

Buy the higher performance aircraft, and invest in a 'bring along instructor' (or indeed any experienced pilot) for the first few long trips. I guarantee they'll charge little to nothing if it's a fun trip...

mary meagher
5th Nov 2018, 14:29
Location Ayr? would that be the small island north of Scotland? And question, exactly how many hours altogether have you flown? Starting with a big expensive aircraft, and little experience or qualification, means that it will NOT save you money. Nor will it get you places in bad weather. Flying by yourself, OK. taking any pax at all, they may be impressed with the fancy machine, but the bottom line is your experience. With important business at your destination, would you turn back if weather was unsuitable? Especially if passengers are aboard!
Not equipped to fly at airline altitudes, better to be alone in the aircraft, with no serious business tempting you to carry on. I flew in rented aircraft in the US, and my own PA18 (with a towhook) in the UK. And an instrument rating. And the experience to realise when it might be a very good idea to change the plan and go by road. Now 85, I started flying at 50, and flew over 3,000 hours, never hurt an aircraft or a passenger.

O yes. Have you passed your aviation medical?

x933
5th Nov 2018, 18:12
Start with a Piper Cherokee 6/6X. Get your IR(R) on that. Couple of years time when you've got some more time behind you think about a Saratoga, C210 or Bonanza.

You'll progress quicker and your insurer will love you.

frazmac
5th Nov 2018, 20:14
Thanks for all the advice everyone. It is appreciated.

I understand the concerns raised regarding developing my aviation skills suitably before jumping into an aircraft like this. As such, I would be happy taking along a safety pilot for the first few long trips to become comfortable with flying the aircraft.

I have a family of 6, and whilst it would be rare for the six seats to be occupied, it would certainly allow that to happen on occasion. I also feel that it would be a more comfortable experience when there were only 3/4 pax on trips with friends or business colleagues.

As a result of this, I am conscious that I do not want to outgrow my first aircraft too quickly. I don't really fancy buying, and then trying to sell and upgrade a year or so later. So an aircraft that gives me room to develop my skills and allows me to do more when I have become a more proficient aviator would be ideal. At that time I suppose oxygen becomes more of an issue, therefore I would be happy to consider these options now.

I'm flying out of Prestwick, so plenty of runway to work with. If there were an option to rent, or share, a nice suitable aircraft in the meantime, I would be happy to do so. But I haven't so far seen anything in the area that ticks the boxes, or appears to be available.

Jan Olieslagers
5th Nov 2018, 20:27
Have you passed your aviation medical?

I have learned to expect the unexpected, in UK aviation, but this question seems to suggest it is possible in UK to gain an EASA PPL without having passed the aviation medical - my imagination feels challenged.

From the opening message:
I have recently obtained my EASA PPL

9 lives
6th Nov 2018, 03:45
I have a family of 6

Me too, (though also two grandchildren and their dads now too). I have often had the use of six seat planes, though I have never taken all of my family flying at once, that has been my choice. More recently, I've been very happy to take just one family member with me.

Vilters
6th Nov 2018, 09:46
You have a family of 6? Then it is time to evaluate.

A 6 seater means filling the 6 seats at reduced fuel load. => 6 people + luggage means you have to reduce fuel load dramatically, and range reduces to a hop to the next town..

Plus: 6 people in a 6 seater + minimal luggage => means very precise Center of Gravity calculations at take off, but also when the fuel is burned off for landing.

For all practical, and safety reasons, if you want to fly 6 people, with luggage over any distance? You need the load capacity, and center of gravity margins of a 10 seater.

xrayalpha
6th Nov 2018, 09:52
Andrew Devlin has built a very nice hangar at Cumbernauld and has a very very nice Cirrus.

He started flying about seven years ago and now takes his aircraft all over Europe in all sorts of weather.

Might be worth having a word with him about your ideas and how to achieve them. (He also might have hangar space too!)

I think he has gone through many of the processes you will have to!

(most instructors, indeed most flying schools, don't own aircraft - for example!)

Sam Rutherford
6th Nov 2018, 10:14
You have a family of six, you should buy (at least) a six-seater.

@Vilters' post about fuel/load etc. is very valuable, but you have some options.

I'm guessing by your age that some of the gang are small/very small, it may also be that you're not planning on flying all of them long distances.

Our FG Saratoga can take 6 adults (no fatties and no luggage) 400nm. It's old, as they get newer they carry less. Or, I can take four adults and luggage almost 1000nm...

Cheers, Sam.

Pilot DAR
6th Nov 2018, 11:23
not planning on flying all of them long distances.

... Is the phrase I like. We had a super family holiday many years back, a combination of fly and drive. I flew the mighty Cessna 150, taking one family member with me, as we progressed along the route, we'd meet at airports and change passengers. Everyone got a portion f the flight. When I happened upon a pod of whales near the ocean, We stopped for a family picnic at the airport, and I took each person out to see the whales.

Consider taking a smaller plane for your family trip, and having some family members travel by another means, meeting you along the way, or at your destination.

Sam Rutherford
6th Nov 2018, 11:25
Maybe it's just me.

If you have a family of four, get at least a four seat plane. Six, at least six. Eight, well, you get the idea...

But maybe it's just me.

Sir Niall Dementia
6th Nov 2018, 11:29
Couple of points. You intend to get your IR(R) fairly quickly. Thats a good leap for a new PPL. It may prove a longer task than you expect.

You intend to fly on business. Check your company Key Man insurance. It may not allow you to fly at all, almost certainly not to fly your key staff without quite a lot of experience.

I had a PA32 260 from 1967. Brilliant aeroplane. Did all I asked of it, but on that particular one the CofG needed close watching.

SND

piperboy84
6th Nov 2018, 12:41
I have 1500 hours with a CPL IR ticket, if I was a freshly minted PPL with a family of six precious ones I’d sign them up for EasyJets frequent flyer program, buy myself a warrior for the first 300hours/3 years to get all the scrapes and bending out of the way and IR done, then move up to a 210, Cirrus Bonanza etc.After 1000 Hours i’d be looking for something that could handle the ice/weather up in the airways and probably upgrade to a BA frequent flyer membership for the family at that time.

ChickenHouse
6th Nov 2018, 15:07
To how many flight hours PIC does 'recently obtained' convert? I always told my students to take max one passenger for the first 100 hours after license, never kids. I took the first passenger after 300 hours, after I was firm in aviating. A six seater and IR right away sounds a bit too much self confidence to me. Flying such a heavy bird from the beginning is quite a challange and I would only advice if you really have a lot of spare time to fly a lot of hours a year to get acquainted. Yes, I do know people jumping from student to C210 or SR22, but they are rare and not all pass the challenge of life.

Chris Martyr
6th Nov 2018, 19:53
I have recently obtained my EASA PPL,

Hi Frazmac. Firstly , well done on obtaining your PPL . It is the first step . It is your 'licence to learn' ! The only advice I will offer you is : Just make sure that your budget level [which appears to be pretty good] doesn't exceed your skill level !
I hope this doesn't sound cynical , but it isn't unusual that guys obtain flying qualifications and then immediately want to progress to higher levels and then suddenly find themselves getting into trouble a damn sight quicker than they did in the a/c that they learnt in .
But if you do go on to buying /flying some super 'whizz/bang' , [and I hope you do] then please , please , please get yourself acquainted with it before you start taking your family/friends all over Europe .

dont overfil
7th Nov 2018, 09:56
Nobody has mentioned weather. Based in Scotland (me too) plan on a dispatch rate of 20% for VFR and 80% IFR for a 150 mile trip. Nov-Feb maybe 5%. Is this practical for business use?
I would suggest renting for a while, probably a 4 seater is all that is available, and see how that works. Your decision on a suitable aircraft will definitely mature in that time.
Best of luck. Probably speak to you soon.

Desert Flyer
8th Nov 2018, 06:12
I don't know about the insurance market in the UK, but you would be hard pressed to get insurance on a high performance aircraft here with less then 200 to 300 hours. Over here, you need to get insurance approved before you buy if a low time pilot. The previous post about renting, if possible in the UK, would be a good idea.

mary meagher
8th Nov 2018, 10:30
Family of 6. That way you can all go together...and if that sounds sinister thats exactly what happens. Read about it frequently in the Air Accident reports. I have four offspring, and 18 grandkids, and I only ever took one ADULT child up at a time. Even then they got bored fairly quickly. What you really don't need is small bored and airsick children and a wife who is wondering how you could spend all that money on YOUR toy!

Now as for taking up your business associates, if they have any brains at all they will fly commercial. Otherwise weather can ruin your plans and your reputation..... How many hours of experience and ratings before you truly qualify to fly safely? Get real!

frazmac
10th Nov 2018, 15:13
Thanks again for everyone's comments. I'll definitely be considering my options closely before making a decision.

I understand the concerns about my lack of the required experience to handle an aircraft like this. It does occur to me that taking my IR(r) course in an aircraft like this sitting alongside my instructor would be a decent way to start obtaining the experience necessary to fly such a plane.

Otherwise, how would I ever get the necessary experience?

If there were a decent aircraft available to rent in the meantime, I would certainly opt for that. But I haven't seen such an option so far. If anyone knows of something suitable, please let me know.

Incidentally, I don't intend to be trying to take the whole family on trips around Europe or anything. I expect most of the longer range flights will mainly be myself and sometimes one or two other passengers. But I would prefer to have the space available to take friends/family/colleagues for a short flight somewhere if the situation arises.

alland2012
14th Nov 2018, 11:28
A question out of curiosity more than anything else.
Not so much of what aircraft to purchase, but how to purchase.
I’m familiar with the protocol in the USA where it’s almost unheard of to part with any money before a good Pre Buy inspection is done by a licensed A&P mechanic, and preferably not by the mechanic who the seller used for his annuals.Does the same procedure apply in the UK when looking to purchase an aircraft ?

Camargue
14th Nov 2018, 17:03
Too be honest, I'm not sure it's so much the actual handling of a high performance aircraft as the work load required to fly long distances with very changable weather and having to make decisions that mean you and your family could end up a very long way from home with no easy means of getting there. Personally with your means id get ir(r) then do some consolidation and then do my twin rating and buy one of those. Personally I would never, ever, fly my family or friends over water I couldn't glide clear of unless I had an engine on each wing.

airpolice
14th Nov 2018, 21:56
Frazmac, you really should listen to what Andrew Devlin can tell you about this.

He's a nice guy, with some nice aircraft, oodles of money and time to indulge himself in it.

For what you plan to do, he's the guy who knows about it.

frazmac
6th Dec 2018, 12:29
I'd like to get in touch with Andrew. Do you have any contact details for him?

funfly
6th Dec 2018, 19:30
I like the phrase
”take the other members of the family with me”
As an inexperienced pilot you might well do that.
When I fly I want an experienced professional pilot (or even two) in the front of a commercially maintained public service aircraft.

Sam Rutherford
6th Dec 2018, 19:40
@funfly

Given your post, you do realise this forum is for private flying?

funfly
6th Dec 2018, 21:17
@funfly

Given your post, you do realise this forum is for private flying?

Sorry mate, Although I don't fly nowadays I have quite a few hundred hours under my belt but always GA.
Like most others, I took my family members up for a flight as soon as I passed my PPL but looking back this was a silly thing to do. During my time there were many "phew" moments. I remember taking off once from La Rochelle in a PA32 (might have been a PA28) with a full tank four on board and all our holiday luggage, hot day etc. - density altitude? but didn't do it again!
Let the pro's fly your family until you are well experienced and certainly with an instrument rating.
But he does seem like a sensible fellow so I am sure he will read into the comments here.

I must add that although I have owned quite a few aircraft and flown many types, I actually did have most flying fun in my xAir Falcon microlight.

Collieflyer One
8th Dec 2018, 10:41
I agree with most of the stuff posted already, you need an intermediate aeroplane before moving to a PA46. The workload increases significantly in a high performance complex type. A good comprimise would be a Cessna 206. It's a much better load lifter than most six place aeroplanes. It is fixed gear so maintenance will be a bit cheaper. The problem with most six place aeroplanes is that they are really only four place aeroplanes by the time you have some baggage and plenty of fuel. Be prepared to spend a bit of time with an instructor getting checked out on type and you may find your insurance company specifies a minimum amount of dual time on type before you can fly it by yourself.
Always have an experienced engineer who knows the type to do a pre-purchase survey before you commit to buy. You don't want an aeroplane that has spent most of it's life as a parachute drop machine.
Best of luck with your search and try and fly as many of the types on your list with their owners. Most owners will take you flying in their pride and joy for a contribution to the cost of the fuel and a bacon sandwich.

Sam Rutherford
8th Dec 2018, 10:46
Not sure anyone has mentioned PA46...? PA32 (FG), C206 etc. are good, 'easy' six-seat planes.

Collieflyer One
8th Dec 2018, 11:14
The original post mentionned they were looking at Piper Malibu which last time I checked was a PA46!

Sam Rutherford
8th Dec 2018, 11:44
Sorry, seen!

I think the OP will struggle to find a PA46 of any sort of 'quality' for $300K. Plus that's a much bigger jump than the other options, and also actually can't carry six people for more than, well, really not very far at all!

Collieflyer One
8th Dec 2018, 13:08
Yes it's the same old story the last two seats are there just for show. I have a twin comanche which is really only a four place aeroplane or a three seater if you fill the tanks. But you can go a very long way with 120 US gal.

Sam Rutherford
8th Dec 2018, 15:22
Our Saratoga (FG, non-turbo) will (just) take six adults without luggage 400nm plus reserve, at 150kts.

Or, four adults and luggage a really, really long way!

And it still flies like a PA28, so no big 'step up' to talk of.

Big Pistons Forever
8th Dec 2018, 18:52
The OP needs a plan and most importantly the right instructor. One of my new PPL's went straight to a C210 including all training for night and IFR ratings on the 210. However right from the start we had a plan for his first 150 hrs with a logical progression of dual, solo skill building and post IFR rating mentored flights. The IFR was all done in the airplane and while there was some "pass the flight test bumpf (eg, NDB holds :rolleyes:)" stuff most of it was set up as real world A to B flights to different airports and with weather conditions of varying complexity including a real world near minimums ILS and an exactly at minimums LNAV approach.

frazmac
13th Dec 2018, 22:03
Frazmac, you really should listen to what Andrew Devlin can tell you about this.

He's a nice guy, with some nice aircraft, oodles of money and time to indulge himself in it.

For what you plan to do, he's the guy who knows about it.


Do you happen to have contact details for Andrew?

Aware
18th Dec 2018, 08:11
Having been flying since 1983 been instructor examiner and a businessman in an unrelated industry, what you propose unfortunately will not work too well. As others have said let the professionals fly you and the family if you want to be almost 100% sure of getting there. Flying on business in UK in light ac is possible but so many factors makes it very unreliable, as a hobby fine with the odd trip holidays etc. IR necessary as is lots of experience. Used to operate a PA32 T - tail Lance beautiful ac, Be careful and enjoy its fun but quite demanding in many ways. My Wife always liked a safety pilot with lots of IR experience tbh, even better if an airline pilot, even better if they fly for BA you get the idea - yes dear - she said it seems safer to me especially with the Family on board.

To be honest the low cost airlines who are so safe and reliable this is a better option if you need to get there 100% of the time. Airports are a PIA I know. Own ac fun but when kids get to Uni age and need cars houses Ryan Air is the only option really ! Damned expensive ac ownership.

Gipsy Queen
19th Dec 2018, 23:10
Having been flying since 1983 been instructor examiner and a businessman in an unrelated industry, what you propose unfortunately will not work too well. As others have said let the professionals fly you and the family if you want to be almost 100% sure of getting there. Flying on business in UK in light ac is possible but so many factors makes it very unreliable, as a hobby fine with the odd trip holidays etc. IR necessary as is lots of experience. Used to operate a PA32 T - tail Lance beautiful ac, Be careful and enjoy its fun but quite demanding in many ways. My Wife always liked a safety pilot with lots of IR experience tbh, even better if an airline pilot, even better if they fly for BA you get the idea - yes dear - she said it seems safer to me especially with the Family on board.

To be honest the low cost airlines who are so safe and reliable this is a better option if you need to get there 100% of the time. Airports are a PIA I know. Own ac fun but when kids get to Uni age and need cars houses Ryan Air is the only option really ! Damned expensive ac ownership.

Well, having been there and done that, I can confirm that the cost of a/c ownership and operation invariably is greater than budget provisions. Furthermore, in my experience anyway, too much time is spent in planning, filing and all the other disciplines (not to mention weather) at the expense of the commercial activities that the aircraft is supposed to support. Too often the a/c becomes the end rather than the means thereto. Aware has provided good advice.

Council Van
20th Dec 2018, 21:58
Shorts sky van.





Airfix kit.

Would love my own light aircraft or a share so I could do some proper flying again! 17 years since I flew a piston single. The shiny jet isn't a bad way to pass the time of day but it's not 'fun flying'. Not long ago a share was available in a Cessna 120 not far from me, I was tempted but knew I could not justify the cost per year.

Maoraigh1
21st Dec 2018, 19:17
"Not long ago a share was available in a Cessna 120 not far from me, I was tempted but knew I could not justify the cost per year."
I'm surprised someone employed as a jet pilot couldn't afford the annual expence of flying a Group aircraft. Have you looked seriously for shares near you? It's probably cheaper than you think.

Council Van
22nd Dec 2018, 08:03
"Not long ago a share was available in a Cessna 120 not far from me, I was tempted but knew I could not justify the cost per year."
I'm surprised someone employed as a jet pilot couldn't afford the annual expence of flying a Group aircraft. Have you looked seriously for shares near you? It's probably cheaper than you think.
To be honest it was more of a bit of a nice idea' partly due to the fact that free time is not at a premium in the busy Summer season and obviously in a simple aircraft the UK weather is often not VFR friendly in the winter when I have more rostered days off.

If all became irrelevant in June for the time being as my medical has been suspended for at least 2 and a half years due to Leukemia and obviously there is a chance I might never fly again at all, never mind get a class one and be able to retuern to my airline job.

However both my teenage children want to be airline pilots and if they can not get on to one of these 'mentored schemes with the likes of easyjet' I will revisit buying a share so that they can hours build in the old school method as I did to become a flying instructor and ultimatly airine pilot.

In the mean time if any one needs a grounded airline pilot to keep them company on a nice little flight on an early June Summer evening and I am fit enough to come along for the ride by then get in touch.

I used to fly a Turbine Islands for a living, transiting back to base at 500 ft on the radio altimeter flying around the villages and properties we came across on a late Spring evening. Is there any better way to spend your life and be paid to do it as well? Best days of my flying career.

Enjoy every flight and make the most of every day as you never know what fate has in-store for you tomorrow.

Regards CV.

frazmac
25th May 2019, 14:39
A little update on this thread.

I completed my IR(r) course and passed my test on the same day that I flew my new pride and joy back from Devon.

I settled on an older Cherokee Six for now, and will get some hours of experience on this before contemplating whether I wish something else in a few years.

Happy flying, everyone. :O

LowNSlow
29th May 2019, 20:38
Congratulations on your new rating and aeroplane, I hope you have many happy hours using both.

icemanalgeria
2nd Jun 2019, 11:47
Whilst not nullifying your comments, three pax can be as distracting as five - and 150kts is likely to be only 20-30kts faster than the four seat they might otherwise buy. Your 180kts example is a considerably more significant (50%) increase on 120kts...

You should also be careful about buying something you might 'grow out of' very quickly.

Buy the higher performance aircraft, and invest in a 'bring along instructor' (or indeed any experienced pilot) for the first few long trips. I guarantee they'll charge little to nothing if it's a fun trip...

I used to fly as safety pilot for a businessman who bought his first aircraft ( T303 ) he built up his experience and became very competent pilot he never stopped taking me along though ( there’s a reason airlines use two pilots and believe me a holiday jet is much easier to fly than a light aircraft in Europe’s weather )

In just a few years I’ve seen too many cars parked at the flying club waiting for their owners to come back from a flight, they never returned.

look on the internet for Beech Bonanza or piper pa31 accidents.

take a safety pilot !

Big Pistons Forever
2nd Jun 2019, 17:58
In the 1990's I did some part time flying for a wealthy individual with a very nice Cessna 421C. He was a very proficient pilot but did a lot of one day trips. On those he would take me and fly the morning leg to the meeting but insist I fly the leg back home at the end of the day as he would be tired and not have his head in the game. I thought he was very sensible

IDG77
15th Jan 2020, 11:17
Hi everyone,
I just got the PPL, I'm a new pilot and new to the aviation world so I have no idea what the steps are to buy an used airplane, I'd like a Cessna 152 or 172, I've seen plenty from 30.000 to 60.000 euros from 1965-1990, in Spain only one so I would have to import it from other country.
I've been looking for info on internet but haven´t found any, so can somebody explain to me the steps or tell me some website or place where I can be informed.
e.g in a car:
1-Pay the car, and make a contract with the owner/seller.
2-Go to the traffic administration office, show the car papers and contract, and pay the transmission tax (which is a percentage from car value or acquisition price) and pay the fees.
3-If it´s imported pay the new registration for the number plate (also according to the car value).
4-The car is now registered und your name.

-Is it similar with an airplane?
-Is it the same process in all E.U countries?
-Is it the same to import and U.S and E.U airplane?
-Where is all the paper work done? In Spain I guess in AESA (Aviation Safety and Security Agency)?

Maoraigh1
15th Jan 2020, 18:42
1). Get familiar with aircraft log book entries, and maintenance requirements.
2). Contact whoever will maintain your aircraft after buying.
3). Do not part with money/commit to buy until that guy has inspected it.
Many aircraft for sale can be rejected on information YOU can obtain, and show to your chosen mechanic. One cannot be sensibly bought without him examining it in person.
You'll need insurance before buying. You buy "Free of all debt".
Consider buying a share in an aircraft. Seriously consider renting until you have over 100 hours logged. Consider also Annex1 aircraft.