Engine Failure

[mattpilot]

Hi

I personally never had one and dont wish to have one in the future, however, i do have a question for those who already experienced one.

When having an engine failure, are there any advanced warnings (in excess of a few minutes), or does it happen just like that - from one second to the next. ? I usually check the engine gauges every few minutes to see if anything changed. I figure if anything will go wrong i will find out there first.

I'm talking about simple single piston airplanes with basic engine instruments (ala Ce152, Ce172)

Im guessing a difference in sound will give you a warning - but it is probably not long enough ahead to give ya some time to decide what to do.

I just want to know from the experienced pilots out there if you ever had an engine failure that happened from one sec to the next or was there always advanced indication?

i realize that most engine failures are do to fuel starvation, so i'm not to interested in those situations since i do always carry enough fuel :). I also know that a continuous, but slowly drop of RPM indicates carb ice, so i also know how to combat that. So if ya got anything that does not fit the above 2 situations i want to hear it - please :)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Often no, but sometimes yes.

Significantly different to usual T&P readings can be a clue, the biggest of all (in my experience anyway) being low fuel pressure, which would always have me diverting soonest.

In terms of funny noises, strange vibrations, if you get them, divert and think about it on the ground. But, not many people get this sort of warning.

G

[QDMQDMQDM]

I feel a little teensy bit controversial this morning and, of course, I've never had an engine failure...

but don't people think we sometimes get a bit over-obsessed -- and I include myself in this -- with safety matters and what to do in the event of XYZ disaster occurring? Too much anxiety can be as dangerous as too little and as a society we tend very much to the over-anxious -- safety at all costs! In everything! All the time! And sue somebody if something goes wrong!

Take reasonable, sensible precautions, don't sweat too much about what might never happen and, crucially, enjoy your flight.

Let the rockets, flames and brickbats fly. Horses heads received through the post will be returned to sender.

QDM

[Aussie Andy]

Take reasonable, sensible precautions, don't sweat too much about what might never happen and, crucially, enjoy your flight.
... and yet, when relatively inexperienced, ask many questions and worry about many things until the cup of experience (or at least "pseudo-experience" gained through learning from the experiences of others) starts to fill before the cup of luck runs out... ;)

No brickbats mate - besides, isn't "QDM QDM QDM" a useful radio call to remember for safety purposes ;)

[QDMQDMQDM]

and yet, when relatively inexperienced, ask many questions and worry about many things until the cup of experience (or pseudo experienced gained through talking to others)

Yes, quite so, I am being a naughty QDMX3 here today, but I just detest over-anxiety, dealing with it many times a day in my day job. The benefit of experience is indeed knowing when to be scared and when not to be.

QDM

[Aussie Andy]

Doctor, I've got this pain in my elbow... ;)

[englishal]

Well...my car engine blew up on the M25 the other day....first there started this big rattling noise, like very loud pinking, then a bad hot oil smell filled the car, then smoke began to **** out the back. However the car carried on for maybe 10 miles, loosing power, but still going, knocking getting worse and worse. Eventually I pulled off the M25 (luckily, just before the Dartford tunnel :) else we would have closed it), and stopped, the engine would no longer tick over, and flames appeared under the bonnet (oil fire). Probably lasted 10 minutes in all, possibly longer had it needed to.

So it depends how it goes I suppose. My problem was due to lack of oil, something ruptured and blew all the oil and water out (yea, I ignored the 'low water level' light as 'it always does that')...Luckily my motor was worth all of £50 in the first place, so I gave it to the recovery guy in lieu of payment. :D

Cheers

EA;)

[Don D Cake]

Had three failures in cars and bikes , none in aircraft :)

1) Blocked oilway starved the camshaft of oil, no warning (oil pressure and temp read okay) but total loss of power when the camshaft seized.

2) Gearbox failed in outside lane of A1M. Again no warning, the first I knew of it was the engine red lining.

3) Big end bearings failed. Engine kept going but I had to keep tuning the radio up to blot out the din from the engine. Managed to keep going for the last 50 miles. Made a mental note to buy a bigger radio for the next time.

I guess whether you get any warning depends on the type of failure.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Doctor, I've got this pain in my elbow...

Take two aspirin, jump off cliff. ;)


The things I've read about avoiding engine failure all say to watch in particular for any differences at all in starting behaviour. If a normally easy to start engine becomes difficult, watch out. That's one advantage of flying one or a few aircraft regularly -- you get to know your machine and are tuned to any differences.

QDM

[Potter1]

Had a cylinder go on me a few weeks back. Cessna 150, 2POB and a reasonable amount of fuel, there was only one way we were going.
No warning, ambling along and 80kts nice warm sunny day, then bang.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Had a cylinder go on me a few weeks back. Cessna 150, 2POB and a reasonable amount of fuel, there was only one way we were going.

Come on, don't leave us in suspense! ;)

What did you do? Forced landing in a field under partial power?

QDM

[QNH 1013]

I've had one engine failure - at the hold prior to departure....

The story echoes what has already been said; if anything doesn't seem right then check again.

First indication was engine run-up during power checks gave a few fewer revs at full throttle than usual (about 4% down). I might not have noticed without the digital tacho that is fitted in addition to the normal rev counter. Rechecked everything in cockpit and tried again - same result. Taxied back to parking, engine covers off, plugs out, throttle cable check, all looks ok. Perhaps I've imagined it! Re-assemble, return to hold to do power checks. All ok except max rpm still about 4% down. Decide to keep full power on for a few minutes to see if it clears. No change for a few minutes, followed by revs dropping even more. Just as I'm wondering why, engine stops dead with a broken crank.

VERY pleased I took notice, congratulate myself on purchase of digital tacho. Relief at being all in one piece with intact airframe helps overcome financial shock of engine repair. Arrive home safely and explain why I'm back so early. Mrs QNH not impressed and brownie points and beer tokens fall to all-time low.

[Potter1]

Oh sorry, I’ll continue, full power gave us a 200fpm descent.

Probably the luckiest thing about the whole incident was that we were 4 miles away from a nice 600m farm strip. Got over the threshold with 400 feet to spare, 40 deg flap on the 150 saw to the height.

[big pistons forever]

1.C 150 oil pump drive failed = forced landing at home airport
2.PA 39 Fuel selector failed between detents on final = Feather engine and made normal landing
3. PA31. Catastrophic turbo failure and masive oil loss. happened at top of shuttle climb at Tofino BC CYAZ = single engine NDB with a circle to land'
4. S2F. engine blew a big hole in No 2 cyl and then lost oil pressure= feathered engine and RTB

Had a couple of R2800' fail , but I had 3 spare engines so no big deal

For No1 . Aircraft was climbing out of home base when I notice oil press was one needle wideth lower than normal. Told the student to head back home and within about 2 mins oil press slowly rolled down to zero. Shut down engine and Force landed.

For No2 . Private aircraft had a very poor appearance and many snags. The failure was due to the owner poorly maintaining the aircraft which was obvious from its condition

For No3. aircraft previous 4 legs had 4 different pilots who had collectively added 6 litres of oil to the engine. None of them had logged the oil as our SOPS required.

For No4 No indication prior to the low oil press light on.

[mattpilot]

thanks for everyone who responded. Not quite the answers i wanted but i learned something :)

[englishal]

big pistons forever,

Time to retire possibly?? ;)

EA:D

[big.al]

mattpilot - does this one count?

In Florida this April, I was due to take my final Check Ride late one afternoon before the skills test the following Monday. Deciding to get some more practice landings in, I headed off XC to an uncontrolled airfield about 25nm SW from 'home base'.

After about the third touch-and-go, the engine spluttered quite a lot when applying full power to lift off once again. The first symptoms were distinctly like spark plug fouling, so I made a full stop landing, taxied off to the ramp and run the engine at 2000rpm (leaned) to burn off the oily deposits.

This seemed to improve the engine running, so I taxied back to the active and departed behind another plane.

At approx. 500ft AGL, overhead one of Florida's many lakes, the engine began to vibrate. After a thorough check of all engine instruments (with everything in the green) I assumed more spark plug fouling but also made preparations for an EFATO just in case.

The C152 continued to climb, albeit with a fair bit of vibration, and I therefore made the (initial) decision to head back to 'home base'. At about 1000ft and approx. 3 nm NE of the airfield I'd just left, the engine vibration became much worse, and reminded me of when a car is running on only three cylinders. At this point the instruments were still all green - no oil pressure or temp. problems. Despite this I figured that the 5000ft of runway behind me, just 3NM away, was a safer bet than the 22NM trip home.

Making a quick about turn, I made a radio call to say I was making a forced landing on the first available runway (which I was nicely lined up on). No time to join the circuit and use the active, I was now losing height at around 300fpm with full power. The engine instruments now started to tell the tale - oil pressure suddenly dropped through the floor and temp. was rising fast.

Thankfully the circuit was clear so I headed straight into runway 22. Once estalished on short final I realised with relief that I would make it now, even if an approach with no flap was necessary to stretch the glide. Keeping 60kts was my main aim, remembering the 'best glide speed' bashed into me by the instructor during praticed forced landings.

Upon landing I taxied off at the first exit, and before even reaching the 'hold short' point, the engine died completely.

Later, when the flying school sent an engineer down by car to find out what had happened, we realised that one of the cylinders had detached completely from the block, with a half-inch gap clearly visible between gasket and engine block. Failed cylinder bolts were to blame, and the engine manufacturer later replaced the engine under warranty (after I returned the to UK).

Despite this I still had to go through the Check Ride later that afternoon in another plane (I guess it was best to get straight back in the saddle).

The morals of this story I guess would be;

- keep a close eye on your engine instruments but don't always assume they will tell you when something is wrong
- if you suspect something isn't right, follow your instincts and play it safe (glad I did, best flying decision I'll probably ever make)
- when keeping a look-out, spare a moment for a glance at the ground below you (not only for navigation but for situational awareness as to where you can put down if the big blade at the front decides it doesn't want to play anymore)
- engine failures may not always be as catastrophic as an immediate stop - I certainly had some warning, even if not from the instruments
- know the PFL routine and use the checklist if you have the time and altitude.

Safe flying folks!

[mattpilot]

@big.al

yup - this is the kind of story that i wanted to hear and that helps!

thanks

[QDMQDMQDM]

The C152 continued to climb, albeit with a fair bit of vibration, and I therefore made the (initial) decision to head back to 'home base'.

big.al

Well done on a successful outcome. It's incredibly easy to criticise and look back with hindsight from a warm room in front of a computer screen, but planning to head back to home base 25nm away with any amount of rough running in the engine probably was not a great initial decision.

Like I say, I don't want to diminish what you did or detract from the successful outcome, but if one's looking for lessons -- and that's what this forum is all about -- I would suggest that is one.

QDM

[FWA NATCA]

Matt,

Though this isn't a piston engine story and it happened back in 75, I had just lifted off a mountain strip in Georgia after refueling in a H46 helocopter to about 300 agl and started forward transition flight when both engines (yes both) decided to flame out. Through pure luck we landed in a small clearing without hitting the trees in front of us or the other helocopters parked behind us.

Both engines restarted and nothing wrong could be found, there is nothing scarier than when a helocopter gets suddenly quiet and you look at the guages and everything is winding down.

Mike

[big.al]

QDM -

Totally agree - hence my comment that the (second) decision to turn back to the airfield behind me was probably the best flying decision I'll make.

In hindsight - would I have done differently? Hell yes, if I'd thought the cylinder would fall off I'd have never taken off again after taxying off to the ramp. The initial rough-running was distinctly like plug-fouling, and I suspected that the problem would quickly clear. After a number of touch-and-go's I'd had spark plug fouling before a couple of times (I guess this is a possible symptom of the 'power-on', 'power-off' nature of circuits). This occasion - at first anyway - seemed pretty much the same, so my first thought was "that's enough touch and go's - I'll get the engine properly warmed and clear the plugs, if that is what's causing it". So you could say that in hindsight this was the wrong decision, yes, because plug-fouling it most certainly wasn't.

When it became very apparent that the problem was more serious, I had no hesitation in heading for the nearest mile of tarmac - i.e. immediately behind me.

It taught me a lesson - be aware of the 'sound and feel' of the engine and be wary of any changes, whether sudden or otherwise. The other lesson might be to strap skis, floats, wheels and a parachute to the plane, to give a fighting chance in the event of engine failure, but this would make for an interesting weight and balance calculation...

[big pistons forever]

Englishal

I have no intention of giving up flying and I still love piston engines , especially the big round ones. The moral of my post was 3/4 of my engine problems had clear warning beforehand.
If I had not heeded the initial unexplained oil pressure drop in the C 150 and immediately headed for home I would have had to ditch as my homefield has water on two sides. The PA 39 was obviously a tradically abused piece of junk owned by a complete idiot. I should never have got in the aircraft in the first place. The PA31 was owned and operated by a good company and maintained by an experienced and dedicated engineer. If the other pilots had logged the oil added I am sure he would have realised something was wrong and found the dying turbo before it suffered a catastrophic failure. As for the R1820 cyl failure , well stuff happens , which is why we have regular recurrent training:)

[a pilot]

While flying a c 206 with skydivers engine was coughing after the jump at near 14000 feet probably over 17000 feet density with no turbo,the answer seemed to be in the book-flying with less than quarter tank for more than one minute uncoordinated.After the engine went quite on me and others again it seemed that more fuel and shorter jump runs.UNKNOWN IF DENSITY CAN CAUSE IT.Another time with a full load of jumpers,near the top of the climb,lots of fuel,engine quit,told them to jump,they freaked out and refused,fuel pump on switch tanks a bit time and engine alive,some say that once a bee in the fuel line caused a similar problem,it seems that flying jumpers is good way to lose your ticket as they just want to get hi,not mantain the plane,low fuel etc.,that was one dodgy place,dont know how others are but....

[big.al]

Wunper -

The forced landing was at Winter Haven - not a million miles from Lake Wales. Both of them are nice airfields, although Winter Haven is usually a little busier.

During PPL training my instructor and I were taxying back to the active at Lake Wales having just practiced a short field full stop landing, when there was a lot of babble on the Unicom about 'jumpers over Lake Wales'.

Wondering whether our plane was about to have a job-lot of cardigans land in the prop, we were then descended upon by about ten parachutists, one of them even daring to float right across the front of us whilst the prop was turning (we stopped the moment we saw them so they could maneuver around us). The instructor was of the opinion that if the 'chutist wanted to play chicken with a whirly mincer, that's up to him. I know they go in for adrenalin rush by taking risks, but there's a limit....

Anyway, I digress, have you been to Lake Wales/Winter Haven?

Al.

[Final 3 Greens]

Once had vapour lock in a PA31 on take off on a very hot day - unusual for a turbocharged injected engine to do that!

Never got above about 20mph, but with one engine delivering between about 40% and full power in rapid fulctuation that was entertaining enough.

No prior warning at all and this following a run up just before entering the runway as my instructor said "we've held for a while, lets be cautious!"

[AfricanEagle]

Mattpilot,

you may have full tanks and all seletors open and still have the engine starve... especially when they manage to give you contaminated fuel.

I had an engine failure 15 minutes after starting up and one minute after taking off, at 300ft. Engine just went silent, was lucky, lots of fields, landed without a scratch.

Aircraft was a VLA with rotax engine, I was using unlead petrol: investigation revealed 11 litres of water in 40 litres of fuel.

[mattpilot]

@african eagle

I realize it can happen, but the point of this topic, or my intent of it, was to hear about engine failure's that where not pilot errors.


"Aircraft was a VLA with rotax engine, I was using unlead petrol: investigation revealed 11 litres of water in 40 litres of fuel."

I dont know who the investigation in your accident blamed, but here's my take on it. I believe it was Pilot error. Why? Well if you have 1/4 water in your tank and you miss it, then someone didn't do the preflight. I DO REALIZE, that you have to wait roughly 30 minutes for all the water to settle and be drainable after refueling, but lets see what the POH says. POH's say that after every fueling, a fuel sample must be drained. I guess that means to wait 30 min on the ground in oder to stay 100% legal. So if you dont follow POH procedures, the pilot committed an error.

Btw, if you have 1/4 water mixed into the fuel, then usually you can already see water deposits after a few minutes. And if all the water was already settled at the bottom, and you drained it and nothing but water came out, then a color/smell check should of been done.