In-cockpit videos

[Nurse2Pilot]

About to start my training and now I'm looking at recording my flights with a GoPro. I'm hoping for at least a two-camera setup, one behind the pilot's head, centrally located in the cockpit, looking more inside the cockpit and recording the instruments, and then one either on the pilot side or on the instructor's side facing inward, between the dash and cockpit frame, recording both pilots. I'm thinking of at least a GoPro 5 for better image stabilization but with little price difference between a Hero5, 6, and a 7, I may get a 5 and a 7. I know there are other options available but so far, the YouTube videos I've seen were almost 100% GoPros so unless there's a really strong case for a different brand, it looks like it'll be a GoPro.

My biggest issues are image stabilization and cockpit audio. The first issue should be sorted by getting a later-model GoPro and using the built-in image stabilisation feature. The secon issue I'm not too sure how to tackle.

It seems that there's two ways of doing this: 1) record audio via an audio recorder or 2) record to one of the GoPros. Does anyone have experience with one or the other? I've watched this video and at 4:52 (GoPro) and at 5:38 (recorder) and there seems to be a significant improvement in the audio with a recorder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XRIFbABwms


The video would most likely be just for personal use for now. With only two cameras and very early in my training, I probably won't make much interesting videos. I'm also not sure how the picture will turn out with the behind-the-head camera; will it able to take good footage of both the internal cockpit instruments and the externa view? Most YouTube videos I've watched needed maybe 4 cameras (instruments, forward view, looking at the pilot, side view) to be able to make an interesting video.

Lastly, for people who have done this, where did you buy your gear from in the UK? I'm looking at getting at least a prop filter as well.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Pilot DAR]

N2P, enter this idea with caution. Video is okay, as long as the cameras are not distracting you from what you're there to do - learn. Don't fly for the camera, fly and learn. I know that this is a Youtube world and everything, but be assured it is possible (and perhaps easier) to learn to fly well without video, many of us have done it! Indeed, when I learned to fly, Super 8 movie was all there was. My buddy and I (both licensed at the time) took one once - the result was uninteresting.

I suggest investing your money in more flying, rather than more equipment - instead of watching yourself do it, again, do it again! But I must also yield to the tech of today's world, so if you gotta, you gotta, just do not get distracted!

[Clare Prop]

Before you invest in all that check that you can find an instructor willing to risk having themselves all over facebook and youtube and possibly open to editing. Go pros are forbidden in our aircraft on dual flights for privacy reasons and the risk of one becoming loose in flight.

[megan]

willing to risk having themselves all over facebook and youtube and possibly open to editing Not only that, but folks have had their privileges stripped following viewing by the authorities. One guy here had his business destroyed and licence ripped, never to be regained, following posting of a video by a sight seeing pax on y'tube of a totally innocuous maneuver. Not the FAA in this case, but a repeat of Bob Hoovers experience with that organisation. Be careful is all I can say, there may be others who come to regret appearing on your vignettes.

[Dark Helmet]

Ditto what everyone else has said. Don't bother. Conecentrate on the flying and the enjoyment of the moment.

[artschool]

I got my PPL last July. I started recording flights with my go pro but soon lost interest as I found it better to concentrate on the flying.

I did record my first solo which was worth capturing!

edit: you need to ask permission from the school as well as the individual instructors.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Thank you for the warnings, guys! Rest assured I've read them and heeded them. I'm quite a private person so these videos will most likely be for private viewings only -- for my own learning and for showing to friends and family, not to the entire world. However, I know aviation is a passion so I'm not entirely ruling out sharing some interesting flights in the future, but this will be a small possiblity well into my flying career.

Pilot DAR, I'm sure 95% of my videos will be uninteresting, but I'm doing it for that 5% instance where I do something wrong or something right and that instance is a very valuable learning tool. Doing something for real is very stressful, being able to detach myself and review what I've done while in the comfort of my study, with the ability to rewind, pause, and slow-mo the event would be a big boost to my learning, wouldn't you say so? Being able to re-live an experience, learn from it, file it away, and learn from it again later on is worth the money invested in a few GoPros IMO.

Clare Prop, I've spoken with three instructors in the flight school and they are unanimous in saying that I can record flights with however many cameras I want under the condition that it's for personal use which is perfectly fine with me. I don't have to worry about losing one in flight as all I'm interested in is in-cockpit recording, so if one comes loose, I'll just retrieve it after the flight is done.

Dark Helmet and artschool, I see your point but the idea here is to have the setup that is set-it-and-forget-it and to treat the equipment as part of the aircraft, not to be noticed at all until after the flight when I need to take them off. As mentioned, the flight recording is for learning, not for vanity or showing off.




So with that out of the way, anyone here care to share their experience with recording audio in a cockpit? Where did you guys buy your gear from in the UK?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[airpolice]

With the permission of my instructor, on the promise that it was only for me to watch, I recorded a "perfect" circuit, flown by the instructor, by me holding a digi video cam and capturing his every move, and word.

I watched it a dozen times that evening, and a few dozen more the next day. The following day I was sent solo.

The idea of getting your lesson again, free, in a less pressured environment, can be good for some people. Doing it this way allowed me to be sure I hadn't missed any of the points that had come up.

I still look at that video from time to time, it gives me a standard to aim for.

[Clare Prop]

If one comes loose then you have an unsecured item that could clonk you on the head or jam the controls.
These devices containing lithium ion batteries are a fire hazard if damaged.

[BackPacker]

Agree with Clare. You can't just leave a fallen camera on the floor, to be retrieved later. It needs to be found *right now* and secured. Especially if the lesson requires some abrupt maneuvering, like stalls, you don't want any loose equipment in the aircraft whatsoever. In most light aircraft the controls are not protected against loose objects. I know of at least one case where a pilot died because of a loose coin jammed a control run.

And there's one other thing. Setting up multiple cameras, lining them up, zooming them out properly and everything, and then removing them after the flight may easily take 5-10 minutes in total. More if you need to install cables as well. At my club, lessons are booked in two hour blocks, and instructors are paid by the block. You can't expect the aircraft to be available ahead of time, or afterwards. So setting up the cameras and removing them afterwards all need to happen inside that two hour block. So that time is going to be taken out of the time for the pre- and post-flight briefing, and the flying itself.

So whatever you do, make sure it's worth it. I would be OK with just quickly sticking a single camera behind you to film your control inputs and the instruments. I also really like the idea of filming the instructor while he/she flies the perfect circuit or another maneuver. But multiple cameras, audio input and whatnot? Overkill.

[ChickenHouse]

Before you start recording video and/or audio, make yourself familiar with current GDPR regulations and make sure everybody involved agrees - flight school, mechanics to sign off the mounts, if you can see restricted public space the ones you possibly film, etcetereas. Also keep in mind where you record and maybe submit your material, i.e. in certain countries storing video or audio material outside the country is forbidden, i.e.2. in certain countries recording ATC audio is criminal, i.e. inform yourself!!!

[Nurse2Pilot]

Exactly the reason I want to record my flights, airpolice! But instead of just watching a "perfect" execution, I'd also watch my imperfect flights and see what I can improve on and where I'm doing things wrong in certain phases of flight. It will greatly help me be more aware of what I'm doing and I hope it will pay off in quickly getting better at flying.

Clare Prop, are we not getting a bit too drastic with the warnings here? Or do you hold the same thoughts for those that use iPads or mobile devices in the cockpit? These are unsecured items too and also have lithium ion batteries.

BackPacker, I see the point regarding loose items and perhaps I can attach a string to the GoPro and secure the string to something else? That way, if something does come loose, I'll go back to level flight, pull on the string to retrieve the GoPro, and then continue on with my lesson. Would that work?

As for the setup issue, I don't expect it to take more than 2-3 minutes, maybe max 5? Taking them down afterwards would be even quicker. These are, after all, action cameras with a very wide FOV so an exact line-up of the camera isn't really very important.

Two cameras would be the minimum for me, I guess. Should a mistake happen, I want to know what the instruments looked like at the time (was I climbing? Banking descent?) and also what I was doing or looking at at the time, so those are two perspectives. More cameras just means more points of view with which to find out what went wrong. I'm surprised thought that you think audio input is overkill, but maybe you're more confident on comms than I am. What the cameras will do for my flying, the audio input will help with my comms.

ChickenHouse, do I need mechanics to sign off on the mounts inside the cockpit? I thought this was only an issue if the mounts are on the outside of the cockpit? I have come across the topic of recording UK ATC comms as illegal which surprised me as I've listened to a number of YouTube videos of US ATC comms, so I guess the rules are different on this side of the pond. However, I was told that for personal consumption, this should not be an issue. If anyone can point me to the source of this ruling, I'd be very thankful.

As for filming while in the air, if an area isn't supposed to be filmed, won't it be a no-fly zone anyway? How can anyone really enforce no-video rules if the place is out in the open and can be accessed from the air? Would they not have to prove first that the act was done for the intent of filming the restricted place instead of my own purposes of training?



While I do appreciate the warnings and bringing up things I may not have thought about, I'm still really waiting on an answer to my original questions.

Thanks!

[MrAverage]

Nurse2Pilot

The UK CAA require in cockpit camera mounts to be approved by a licenced engineer.

They are banned at our Club also............

[xrayalpha]

N2P,

Have done a small amount of filming - with permissions - for professional broadcasters.

For sound, a small mic in the headset cup is great. Picks up what you say, and your instructor, ATC etc. And the headset cuts out a lot of background noise!

However: we, like most other flying schools, ban the use of go-pros etc by students. A standard camera/phone on a lanyard is good, for taking those amazing shots where the view is so fab you have to stop the lesson for a moment, take a breath and just enjoy being in the air.

Why the ban:

First: the safe fixing of them. And the paperwork required.

Second: people lie! Or to be diplomatic, their intentions change suddenly and unexpectedly! So that private video ends up on youtube, being shared around the clubroom, or that favour (in private, it will really help me!) becomes public chat in the clubroom. So we don't do any of that.

Third: we run a flying school. Our key staff are out instructors. Some just don't like seeing themselves on a camera. It distracts them - so the student gets a worse service. And our priority is to give a student the best service. Most problems are there to be sorted out in the air - we are a flying school. At least the handling ones.

The big problems are students who don't do adequate look outs. Don't remember checks. etc. Again, you don't need a CCTV to point to to say to the students: I never saw your head turn. Or state what each letter in a mnemonic stands for - or even what the funny word is.

A final point: what do you point the camera at?

To me, that is the beauty of a flight simulator. You can freeze, go back 30 sec etc. So you can choose which bits to focus on. We don't have one - yet. But we are working on it.


N2P - get a few hours in the air and come back and tell us a few things.

[Nurse2Pilot]

MrAverage, thanks for pointing that out. I found the relevant documentation under CAP 1369. My flight school has pre-existing GoPro mounts plus a unanimous "yes, but..." response to my queries regarding GoPro use, so I assume they've taken the appropriate steps. I'll ask a more direct question next time I go there to be sure.

xrayalpha, thanks for your input! As to your concerns, (first) I'll ask the school again to be sure, but like I said, there are pre-existing GoPro mounts, (second) this is really all up to me and being true to my word so I'll be sure to keep private things private, (third) I've gotten the instructor's permission to do so and have no issues blurring them out should I wish to share the video and they want to remain anonymous or simply not share the video if they have any reservations whatsoever. The primary purpose of this exercise is for my own learning and review, not to gain YouTube fame, and I would have no issues at all if these videos are not seen by anyone else except myself. The only reason I take into consideration sharing videos is because of the beauty of aviation but this doesn't mean it has to be those videos with instructors in the cockpit.

One issue you raise is lookout and it's easy to spot issues there with an instructor in the cockpit. But am I doing enough on my solo flights? What exactly was going on before XX happened? With nobody else there, or if the instructor was similarly distracted by another task, the camera is the perfect tool to review and confirm any issues in the cockpit even if I am by myself during that flight. Flight simulation can only do so much. For example, if I'm not doing a good-enough lookout, flight simulation will not help me recognize that in any way. If I make a mistake, flight simulation will not show me what I was doing before XX happened, I'll still need a camera pointed at me for that.


Reading the CAP 1369, I do note that there doesn't seem to be a secondary setup where I can secure a lanyard or strap. I'll take a look at that when I visit the school again. I guess that's now an addition to my previous questions which still remain unanswered: To those that do this, what type of lanyard or strap do you use (and how long?) to secure your cameras?

If people do not wish to speak openly due to the issues cited in this thread, please feel free to PM me and I will greatly appreciate it and will respect your desire for privacy.

There are clearly concerns about doing this activity but there are clearly guidelines on how to do it safely. I honestly appreciate the issues being brought to my attention and I will be sure to do this activity in the safest way possible.

[artschool]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/456x519/gopro_maniac_45082a54694cd883a164b532bb4460c0e0499269.jpg
problem solved

[Nurse2Pilot]

I think there is more likelihood of a student dropping a hand-held radio, GPS, Pen, nav planning tool or a CRP5 than there is of a properly fitted Go Pro mount coming off.
Is everything in the cockpit bolted down securely? No headphone bags or old dirty rags or anything else loose? I understand the security concern of a loose item getting lodged in someplace it shouldn't be, but I wonder how a typical cockpit would be in terms of loose items.

Where did you get your lanyard? I think I have a few that PTT were giving away during their career nights.

I've looked at suction mounts for mounting the GoPro that would be facing me and have decided on a RAM mount. Anyone have experience with these? As to the concerns of a camera falling off during flight, I see there are options of securing the camera via a tether so that at the very least, it doesn't rattle around inside the cockpit and with a tether of a sufficent length, it shouldn't get in the way of any controls should the camera fall off. However, short of bolting a ring onto the frame of the aircraft, it seems like these tethers are connected to a point that is attached via a 2-way adhesive just as the camera mounts are for the GoPro.

[Clare Prop]

Phones and iPads have to be stowed properly. Also, one thing that really bugs me is the little circles on my windscreens from when people on private hires have used suction cups and not cleaned up after themselves.

[Nurse2Pilot]

artschool, you may think that's funny but here's a guy with eight cameras in his cockpit! SMH


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok0nEllpvms

Phones and iPads have to be stowed properly. Also, one thing that really bugs me is the little circles on my windscreens from when people on private hires have used suction cups and not cleaned up after themselves.Define "stowed properly"? I'm not talking about devices placed inside bags or zipped up pockets, I'm talking about devices used while in flight just like the iPad on the video above!

But I do hear ya about people not cleaning up after themselves! Do you warn these same people as you do here? Do you have a secondary attachment point or tether points for those who use suction mounts?

I've re-read this thread and just wanted to pick up on the issue of a GoPro coming loose and falling off inside the cockpit while in flight. Has anyone ever had this happen before or know of an instance where this occurred? Granted an incorrect setup of the GoPro mount will mean it will fall off, a correct installation of the GoPro shouldn't make this an issue, yes? The mounts are almost as idiot-proof as they can make it and as seen in this video, a properly applied mount can be placed on an aircraft wing and will not come off!! Timestamp 5:30 in the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlCdHcoUkZs


I'll give that test a try with the RAM mount and see how much it can tolerate.

[MrAverage]

Different rules in FAA land. At least that camera will protect his tail skid.............

[ChickenHouse]

I've re-read this thread and just wanted to pick up on the issue of a GoPro coming loose and falling off inside the cockpit while in flight. Has anyone ever had this happen before or know of an instance where this occurred? Granted an incorrect setup of the GoPro mount will mean it will fall off, a correct installation of the GoPro shouldn't make this an issue, yes? The mounts are almost as idiot-proof as they can make it and as seen in this video, a properly applied mount can be placed on an aircraft wing and will not come off!! Timestamp 5:30 in the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlCdHcoUkZs


I'll give that test a try with the RAM mount and see how much it can tolerate.
There are many things you can do in FAAland which brings you into trouble in EASAland, so be careful.

[9 lives]

Yes, I have had things come adrift in an aircraft and cause an unsafe situation. A towbar I failed to notice in the baggage compartment of a 172RG I rented bounced up while I was flying, and cracked the back window. I paid to replace the window, it was my fault.

I suggest that you not stick anything to the paint of an aircraft you do not own. Doing so might constitute a "major modification" for which an approval would be required. At the very least, if you damage the paint removing it later, you'll find out how expensive aircraft paintwork is! Paul Berterelli of AvWeb does know what he's doing, but, like so many things in aviation, the fact that an experienced pilot can tell you how to do something, does not mean you should attempt it! Leave the cameras at home, and focus on undistracted learning.

[artschool]

artschool, you may think that's funny but here's a guy with eight cameras in his cockpit! SMH

I found a better one for you.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x559/899781240e3cb06349559c309a9251c4_400x1000_266e97c9cb05d80104 ba16cfe4a88d0744e36d6d.jpg

[Nurse2Pilot]

Different rules in FAA land. At least that camera will protect his tail skid.............
There are many things you can do in FAAland which brings you into trouble in EASAland, so be careful.I gathered as much but care to confirm if these are different in FAA and in EASA? Would appreciate pointing me to a source if possible!


Yes, I have had things come adrift in an aircraft and cause an unsafe situation. A towbar I failed to notice in the baggage compartment of a 172RG I rented bounced up while I was flying, and cracked the back window. I paid to replace the window, it was my fault.

I suggest that you not stick anything to the paint of an aircraft you do not own. Doing so might constitute a "major modification" for which an approval would be required. At the very least, if you damage the paint removing it later, you'll find out how expensive aircraft paintwork is! Paul Berterelli of AvWeb does know what he's doing, but, like so many things in aviation, the fact that an experienced pilot can tell you how to do something, does not mean you should attempt it! Leave the cameras at home, and focus on undistracted learning.How exactly did the towbar bounce up? What were you doing? I'm guessing the weight of the towbar and the weight of a GoPro camera is significantly different, but point taken! As for sticking things on paintwork, I wonder what in the world gave you the idea that I was going to do that? I was simply pointing out that if the GoPro adhesive can withstand being out in the airflow, what gives people the idea that it will come off in flight while inside the cockpit?

While I certainly appreciate the warnings regarding putting cameras in the cockpit, I am still confused as to how people automatically assume that I would be distracted with using this setup. The idea is to have it simple and quick to set up, turn it on, and then forget about it until after the flight. The only time I think I will be distracted by using a camera is if it falls off during the flight.

[BackPacker]

I was simply pointing out that if the GoPro adhesive can withstand being out in the airflow, what gives people the idea that it will come off in flight while inside the cockpit.

Be careful though. I have had GoPros on surfaces that turned out to be a bit dirty, or letting air through but at minute levels. The GoPro felt fine after being attached, but it fell off spontaneously 10 minutes later. Fortunately we were still on the ground at that time.

Also, the suction mount works by (duh) suction, so by creating a pressure differential between the air pressure under the cup, and the outside world. However, as soon as you start flying the ambient pressure goes down. This also decreases the pressure differential, to the point where it may not be strong enough anymore to hold the GoPro in place.

Both reasons may cause a GoPro that seems to be properly attached on the ground, to fall off while in the air. I've had both happen to me.

Oh, and another thing about tethers and cameras on the outside. If you mount your camera to the outside and tether it, make sure the tether is long enough so the camera sits behind the wing/fuselage should the suction mount go. If it's not long enough and the suction cup does let go, the camera will bounce against the fuselage/wing, and will do significantly more damage than what the camera is worth. In that case, better not to tether it at all. And, of course, make sure the tether is not in any way able to foul a control.

That's all from actual experience when GoPros were still hot and happening. Five years later, and I can fully understand why authorities, clubs and owners simply forbid placing cameras on the outside. Heck, I have even seen people put GoPros on flight control surfaces (including ailerons and elevators). When I pointed out that that would significantly alter the balance and flutter characteristics of the flight control, they were just giving me that vacant blank stare. No clue what they were doing.

[artschool]

whilst I have been joking earlier in the thread I did remember another reason why I stopped using my go pro.

I was training in a PA38 at a busy flight school. The aircraft were in use for the majority of the day so when my turn came I would have to walk out on to the apron with my instructor to carry out the walk around/ refuel etc. after the external checks were complete the two of us would climb into the plane and you would be expected to start on the internal checklist/getting the ATIS etc.

There wasn't really a good opportunity to turn around and stick the suction mount onto the rear window and then switch it on without disrupting the lesson.

This is why the first good footage was of my solo flight because I had the time to do this without anyone else in the cockpit.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Thanks for the warning, BackPacker! Can you tell me more about the issues you had with GoPros? What happened and how did you deal with it during flight? No plan to mount anything external at the moment, and would really, really need to see a good reason to risk a £300 device before doing so. At the moment, all plans are to have the GoPros inside the cockpit positioned more for flight review than for sightseeing.

Suction mount -- flying GA with unpressurized cabins, can the ambient pressure really go down that much as to render a suction cup useless? I'm talking about RAM suction mounts as well. Obviously not all suction devices are created equal!

Tether -- again, no plans of mounting externally and will only consider tethering the GoPro inside the cockpit so that if it falls off, it's still "secure" and not a threat to any instrument or control device.

No clue -- sadly, I've worked with enough "healthcare professionals" to know exactly the vacant blank stare you're talking about!


artschool, thanks for sharing your experience! I've yet to have a look inside a PA-38 to figure out where/how to mount a GoPro but I've looked inside a PA-28 and have noticed a pre-existing instrument mount still attached, so assuming the placement is suitable for me, all I need to do is slide/clip my GoPro there and I'm done. The second GoPro will most likely be on a RAM mount with suction that I'll attach to the front-right windshield or on the door window, so again, a 5-second installation and done. I'll have a couple of trials before the actual flight to confirm camera placement and angles and have a few practice runs of attaching/detaching the equipment, but it should be quick and easy. At least it does in my head!


It seems like I won't exactly be getting the help I wanted from this thread as almost 30 posts on, I've still got no replies that are direct answers to my initial queries, so to those who are all doom-and-gloom about this idea, I would greatly appreciate sharing actual experiences I (and anyone else) can learn from!

To those who are saying recording ATC audio and putting it in YouTube is illegal, can you help me find the source for this claim? I've come across at least three channels where the pilots fly in the UK and have ATC audio, even has "ATC audio" in some of the video titles! So it's not like they're hiding the fact! Combined, they have well over 22+K subscribers and over 200+ videos (although granted, probably not all have ATC audio), but I'm not sure how "big" those channels are with respect to GA YouTube channels.

[rarelyathome]

It seems like I won't exactly be getting the help I wanted from this thread as almost 30 posts on, I've still got no replies that are direct answers to my initial queries, so to those who are all doom-and-gloom about this idea, I would greatly appreciate sharing actual experiences I (and anyone else) can learn from!



Probably because you're not really hearing everybody that is telling you it's not a good idea. You will need to be aware of confirmation bias when you are flying and all your replies seem to be trying to confirm your own decision that yours is a good idea.
I can't give you actual experiences because I don't allow cameras. If you were learning where I instruct you would not be allowed anyway but, even so, there isn't enough time between aircraft trips (you won't be the only one using the aircraft) for you to fix cameras and sort audio. Just concentrate on the instruction you get - it really will get you through. Your instructor will ensure you have completed the exercise satisfactorily before moving on and each stage will be reinforced throughout your training.

[artschool]

in an effort to be more helpful! I also found this go pro remote to be useful as I didn't want to get distracted looking at the front of the camera to see if it was recording. it also meant that I was able to wait until we had finished taxying and the power checks before starting the camera to save on battery power.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/756x756/for_go_pro_nylon_wifi_remote_hand_wrist_belt_band_strap_moun t_for_hero3_hero4_hero4_71078557fafabfbf63b7ea84fd089e61aa0c 5744.jpg
this was the suction mount I used. I never had a problem with it losing suction.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1064/suctioncup_pdp_2_492e53e0131d3123b279cdf881cb2a4ad1ac3ffa.jp g

[Nurse2Pilot]

Probably because you're not really hearing everybody that is telling you it's not a good idea. You will need to be aware of confirmation bias when you are flying and all your replies seem to be trying to confirm your own decision that yours is a good idea.
I can't give you actual experiences because I don't allow cameras. If you were learning where I instruct you would not be allowed anyway but, even so, there isn't enough time between aircraft trips (you won't be the only one using the aircraft) for you to fix cameras and sort audio. Just concentrate on the instruction you get - it really will get you through. Your instructor will ensure you have completed the exercise satisfactorily before moving on and each stage will be reinforced throughout your training.I can claim confirmation bias on the other side of the coin as well! At least there were a few here who have advised caution rather than an outright refusal to entertain the notion. You say you don't allow cameras, but you don't say why? Is there a solid reason behind your policy? Or just personal preference? If the reason for your policy is based on sound evidence and there is absolutely no way to mount a camera that will "fix" the issue, then fair enough.

Trust me, I'm reading and assessing every reply. What some people seem to miss is that people learn in different ways and having the footage and audio for me to review at my own leisure, without any time pressure, is invaluable. Imagine taking down notes during class, but instead of being reliant on the teacher talking slowly or your writing quickly, this method allows me to take down everything and review at a later date.


So far, the main issues seem to be:
distraction -- I plan to set-it-and-forget-it, and attach the cameras to tethers so as not to be an immediate flight risk if it falls off the mount.

unsecured item -- should be dealt with considering stuff will be tethered, but if a camera were still to fall to the floor, straight-and-level to retrieve it if necessary. As airpolice said, there are other items more likely to be "lost" in the cockpit than a properly attached GoPro.

flying for the camera -- I'm old enough to not care how I look at work and most social events; I wouldn't care how I look like in video intended for flight performance review. Maybe if I was auditioning for Top Gun 2.... :D

school/instructor -- already got the approval for this under certain conditions. I will be sure to secure permission should I decide to post anything online, but for now, the videos are for private viewing only and I have the approval of both the school and the instructor.

setup time -- the initial setup will take time, which is why the initial setup will be done before my actual flight. On the day, the only setup required will be to slide the top GoPro on the ceiling mount, attach the side GoPro to the windscreen via the RAM suction mount, and plug the audio recorder alongside the headset. Done!! With the screws tight enough and a wide FOV, camera FOV isn't that much of an issue. I'm honestly confused at why people think the setup time will take long? When you go and park your aircraft, is the next student and instructor there ready and you just hot-swap and therefore there is absolutely no time to remove a GoPro camera?

To be fair, if I was talking about the 8-camera setup above, then I can see how setup time will be an issue but again, by that time, he's doing solo-hire of the aircraft so he can probably take however long he wants so setup time isn't that much of an issue.

legality -- I'll need to confirm with the school here but so far, I've not seen references cited regarding recording of ATC and restricted areas. I'm quite sure we won't be practicing flying near such an area but again, I'll double-check with the school prior to the flight. On the other hand, there are quite a few YouTube channels with ATC comms included in the video so if it was such a bad thing to do, how come these channels are still up?


Have I missed any issues?

[Nurse2Pilot]

artschool, not sure if your post about wifi and suction mounts is serious or is another joke, but I thought wifi-related items are prohibited in the cockpit? If you are serious though, all I need to do is look back and look at the ceiling camera to see if the red dot is on to denote the camera is recording and then look at the side camera, again looking for that red dot. 5-10 seconds, done.

As for the suction mount, I'll be using a RAM mount which I'm under the impression is more robust than GoPro's own suction mount and the ball system that RAM uses allows me better adjustability than the GoPro system. If that proves inadequate, I think RAM makes suction mounts with up to three suction bases or I can install a GoPro adhesive mount and use a RAM ball adapter for the GoPro mount.


BTW, this guy is clearly testing all those cameras and doing it this way provides a more controlled testing system!!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x559/899781240e3cb06349559c309a9251c4_400x1000_266e97c9cb05d80104 ba16cfe4a88d0744e36d6d.jpg


Joking aside, have a look at how people compare cameras and the mounts they use/make to have a fair testing method.

[artschool]

artschool, not sure if your post about wifi and suction mounts is serious or is another joke, but I thought wifi-related items are prohibited in the cockpit? If you are serious though, all I need to do is look back and look at the ceiling camera to see if the red dot is on to denote the camera is recording and then look at the side camera, again looking for that red dot. 5-10 seconds, done.

As for the suction mount, I'll be using a RAM mount which I'm under the impression is more robust than GoPro's own suction mount and the ball system that RAM uses allows me better adjustability than the GoPro system. If that proves inadequate, I think RAM makes suction mounts with up to three suction bases or I can install a GoPro adhesive mount and use a RAM ball adapter for the GoPro mount.
Joking aside, have a look at how people compare cameras and the mounts they use/make to have a fair testing method.

no I am not joking. why would wifi not be used in a light aircraft? we also use it for sky demon and pilot aware.

[Nurse2Pilot]

I can't remember where I read it to be honest. If that is allowed and it can tie into multiple GoPros (website says up to 50!), that may be a useful addition to just press one button and all cameras turn on, but with just two cameras and a £80 price tag on that controller, I think it's a bit dear for now.

[9 lives]

It seems like I won't exactly be getting the help I wanted from this thread as almost 30 posts on, I've still got no replies that are direct answers to my initial queries, so to those who are all doom-and-gloom about this idea, I would greatly appreciate sharing actual experiences I (and anyone else) can learn from!

It's not doom and gloom, it's really experienced pilots telling you that you're better to leave the camera at home, and concentrate on flying the plane. Any time you spend around the plane with your camera is a lost learning opportunity for you. If you would like to watch cockpit video for the purpose of learning, there are lots of videos out there already, and some showing things that you'll never want to do yourself!

I'm not saying that videoing is necessarily bad, certainly I've done it a little, but I'm also a very experienced pilot, who owns the planes in which the video was taken. A less experienced pilot in someone else's plane is distracted from learning to make the camera work. If you're at the airport, you should be 100% concentrating on learning to fly the whole time you're with the plane and instructor. A five minute fiddle before and after the flight, is ten minutes of learning lost. If you're thinking about the video being recorded as you're flying, you're not thinking about the flying you should be focused on.

If a student came to me with a camera, I would tell that student to put it back in their car. When students have come with Ipads to navigate around the circuit, I have told them to put the Ipad away. I learned to tell the student to put it away, 'cause the first one I put away for the student, I put in a seat pocket, and the screen was broken when he pulled it out. Fortunate that we found this after the flight, or my student would have spent the hour and a half of circuits thinking about his broken Ipad! But, in any case, no distractions in the cockpit! I've seen all kinds of gadgets brought to the cockpit, suction cups, cords, things clamped to controls. One student for advanced training (admittedly in his C 182) had three Ipads installed - for circuits and airwork! I could not reach the engine controls from my side. We did not fly until two of the Ipads were removed. I have adopted a philosophy of sterile learning environment - if it is not needed for the lesson, it's not there being a distraction. When you have your PPL, and you own the plane then it will be time to re-evaluate, because yes, there will come a time when video is nice, just not when you're supposed to be learning the basics.

[rarelyathome]

I can claim confirmation bias on the other side of the coin as well! At least there were a few here who have advised caution rather than an outright refusal to entertain the notion. You say you don't allow cameras, but you don't say why? Is there a solid reason behind your policy? Or just personal preference? If the reason for your policy is based on sound evidence and there is absolutely no way to mount a camera that will "fix" the issue, then fair enough.

Trust me, I'm reading and assessing every reply. What some people seem to miss is that people learn in different ways and having the footage and audio for me to review at my own leisure, without any time pressure, is invaluable. Imagine taking down notes during class, but instead of being reliant on the teacher talking slowly or your writing quickly, this method allows me to take down everything and review at a later date.


OK. I'm going to leave it here as I've tried to help you on this thread and over on the Instructors Forum. You could claim confirmation bias if you knew what you were talking about and have some time under your belt as an instructor - you don't as you are only just embarking on your training. Instructors won't miss that people learn in different ways as that's their bread and butter. It's covered in the theory on their FI course and reinforced with almost every student they teach. Good luck with your training and with your ambition.

[mary meagher]

Nurse2pilot, before you clutter up your lookout (lack of attention to your lookout may lead to unpleasant surprises), if you intend to learn to fly and are not planning to immediately buy your own aircraft, don't waste your time by pandering your ego with cameras. Like many others who have given you good advice on this forum, your early flying will demand your absolute attention. I began flying at the age of 50 at Booker Gliding Club, went on to get my pilots license at the Wycombe Air Centre, took up towing up gliders, which demands careful attention, and that does NOT include taking photos or looking at the instruments. After that, my first flight in competition was at Lasham, where 100 gliders were launched on the task of the day. Believe me, we all kept a jolly good lookout. Since then flew in Russia and in Europe, and of course in the United States, Texas, Florida, Michigan and New Jersey. Now still flying at 85 but with a safety pilot, am pleased to report that I have never bent an aircraft. Or a car for that matter. And the only reason to use a camera in a glider used to be in a steep bank over the turning point.

[jonkster]

This is all my opinion but I have flown with students who have used cameras during their lessons.

2 steps back. What is the actual objective - what exactly is the information you are trying to record?

I can see value in recording audio - it will help you understand and get comfortable with procedures and also could help you realise where the instructor keeps saying the same thing and you are not quite registering what they mean as you are a bit overloaded (not uncommon in early stages of your training).

As for video - if recording video of your control inputs... not so sure that will help (other than identify if you tend to overcontrol or tense up or are not trimming) but your instructor will be aware of that anyway and tell you at the time. Operating the controls cannot be taught by watching.

Recording video directly of you while flying - might be fun to watch your facial expressions maybe! :)
as far as educational - maybe not so much :)

Recording the view out the front - this may help learning to recognise attitudes and also judge appropriate perspectives/aiming points on approaches so I can see some value here, at least early on.

My 2c If you really want to record video of the lessons and use it for assistance in your training, my thought would be keep it simple, a single camera, mounted behind you looking forward and work out some way to get audio recorded of your instructor's patter and radio. I suspect you may find the audio recording to perhaps be of more value than the video but may be wrong. I don't think you need the greatest technology - it is not for public display - just for your personal education so wouldn't worry about quality - more secure attachment and appropriate view.

I have flown with suction cap cameras mounted in the cockpit and have had them drop off at inconvenient times - more an annoyance than a drama, especially with 2 people in the cockpit but it could be a drama if you are early solo and you get distracted by a wayward camera dropping off at an inconvenient time.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Thanks for the replies guys!

9 lives -- I fully appreciate what you're saying and have taken that into consideration. Setup time prior to the flight will take a good few menutes, but setup time on the day of the flight should take 5 minutes tops (install and take down), if not shorter. I've not exactly timed myself doing this, but how long does it take to clip a GoPro onto a pre-installed adhesive mount? How long does it take to stick on a suction cup? Press two buttons, done!

While I appreciate learning from someone else's mistakes, the purpose of taking my own video is finding my own mistakes. Once the video is on, the idea is to forget about it and fly. By nature, I'm constantly worried about missing stuff or forgetting about stuff so video recording is done so that I don't have to think about those worries. Also, for a learning environment, I expect to be over-saturated with info on flying so being able to review at my leisure is what makes this worth the extra hassle.

I totally understand what you say about iPads though and you'll have to admit, their purpose for those gadgets are very, very different from my purpose with regards to recording my flights! I'm 100% with you against iPads in the cockpit especially for students, but this is because I understand that they were intending to refer to or fiddle with the iPads during flight. I have no intention of even thinking about the GoPros while in flight except in the case of one falling off and it's only to retrieve it to ensure it doesn't end up where it doesn't belong.


rarelyathome -- I would like to thank you for sharing your thoughts regarding my concerns, but let me repeat my questions... why don't you allow cameras? Is it based on sound evidence or personal preference?

You claim that this is not a good idea, but how can you know if you don't allow cameras? You say there isn't time between aircraft trips; either your school is really, really busy or that you're thinking camera setup is more complex and time-consuming than it actually is. Do you have time under your belt doing camera setups and audio recording?

As for learning in different ways, do consider that fighter pilots record their flights via ACMI (Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation) and play it back and scrutinize every single detail and decision-making instances during their flight. As such, I'm taking a leaf out of their book.


mary meagher -- point taken regarding clutter and that is why the plan is for two cameras for now, one behind the pilot's head so very minimal obstruction, if any, and the other one just between the dash and the window, so while this will obstruct the view, it's done so that it's not by very much.

I would like to restate that this has 100% to do with review and learning and 0% to do with ego. I don't blame you for making that assumption though, what with Facebook and selfies everywhere. I assure you I'm the odd guy for my generation --- my Facebook profile picture is only one picture and it's 9+ years old. I take pictures of places I go to and not bothered if my face is in it or not. I prefer eating the food and have zero interest of taking a picture of it and posting it to Facebook or Instagram.... I don't even have an Instagram account! I've missed quite a few parties with friends because the invite was done via Facebook and so I've missed it. So please guys, understand the reasons why I'm doing this and my intended benefits instead of responding to your own assumptions.


As I said before, it seems like I won't be getting answers to questions in my first two posts but I do appreciate people bringing issues to my attention. I feel like I've responded to all issues brought up and have thought up a solution to these issues; if anyone can think of new problems that may arise or that I've not adequately "solved" an issue, I'd be very grateful if they can point it out!

I realize that while I may not be getting the help I was asking for, I'm getting help nevertheless and I appreciate that!

[Nurse2Pilot]

jonkster, I very much appreciate your reply. Can you tell me what suction cup was used that was inadequate?

The main objective here is recording the flight and what I am doing during various stages of flight. What information can I glean from doing this? I'm not exactly sure, but here's a video by Stefan Drury and an aborted takeoff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNGlOHUQ8bs


By recording his flight, he was able to capture this incident and examine his reaction during the incident. At the 5:00 mark, he examined his reaction time from noticing the incident and taking the appropriate action. If it was my video, my questions would be 1) did I take too long to act? or too soon? 2) was the incident occurring for some time before I noticed it? 3) was my reaction appropriate to the incident? 4) what did I do after the incident?

You can also see the placement of his second camera; I intend to do the same, but on the instructor's side rather than on mine. I just think that'll give me a bigger FOV of what I'm doing and thus give more info compared to a closer-up video. This video by Stefan is also one of the videos that sold me on a 2-camera setup instead of just one.

As for audio, I am fascinated by ATC chatter but at the same time, talking on the radio would be a weird and new experience for me so being able to record and listen to how it's done, I feel that would help greatly in my learning. It would also help me identify mistakes in my radio calls, again helping me fix any issues sooner rather than later.

[jonkster]

jonkster, I very much appreciate your reply. Can you tell me what suction cup was used that was inadequate?


I don't know the brand or details (I am not up on the cameras) but a couple of times have had a suction mounted camera, (attached to the screen), pop off during flight. They were one of those single big suction cap ones with a lever that pulls the inner part of the cap up. One case I can recall it came off and was re-attached a couple of times in the flight but after a few minutes would then pop off again. I can imagine the suction mechanism/plastic may deteriorate on some of these devices over time, especially if in the sun regularly (and in a hot cockpit in an Oz summer). Also vibration can be an issue - the camera and mount can sometimes start shaking at particular throttle settings - probably not much good for the video but also will potentially increase the load on the mount maybe causing it more likely to come loose.

I flew with someone just recently who had several cameras mounted around the cockpit using suction caps, these ones had 3 suction caps per camera on a kind of 3 legged spider. I can imagine that would be pretty secure. Took up a bit of screen real estate though.

I have to admit I am a bit old school (or perhaps neanderthal... I think the ideal training aircraft has a tail wheel and minimal instrumentation/equipment/distractions:)) and suspect particularly for ab-initio training, a camera probably more for fun than for training value but everyone is different and if you find it useful and an instructor happy to accomodate you and you do it safely/responsibly - why not.

Up to you. Whatever way you go, I would just say don't make it too complicated or distracting during the lesson.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Yes indeed, the idea is simple but secure!

Are you referring to this suction cup? Or something different?

https://i.imgur.com/0v1qPNG.jpg

[jonkster]

I guess it looked similar to that - hard to know if it was the same - I didn't pay it that much attention to be honest.

[flyinkiwi]

My 2c is pretty much echoing what more experienced pilots have said. Camera's are a distraction, and you don't need distractions when you are trying to learn in an expensive learning environment. I'd suggest that the ability to go over things on the ground would cancel out what you'd be learning in the air, and it's in the air where you want to be learning at your optimal rate. I kept a diary of my lessons by brain dumping after I got home, and I managed to glean quite a lot just from my recollections. Even after getting my license I don't generally film myself, I take a friend along who does all the filming so I can concentrate on "Aviate, Navigate and Communicate".

Just my opinion.

[rarelyathome]

N2P Yes I teach in a very busy school hence the experience. Please don’t patronise. After 30+ years in the RAF I know how ACMI works. Ask yourself whether the RAF uses telemetry or whether they have in-cockpit filming for basic flying training and do as you say - take a leaf out of their book.

[Nurse2Pilot]

jonkster -- thanks! Hard to dismiss the suction cup issue as not all suction cups are made equal.
flyinkiwi -- thanks for sharing your thoughts! As mentioned, I have considered how the camera can be a distraction and I think I've shared my solution for it. I also brain dump (although I use a different term!) after learning sessions but having a camera or video/audio recording means I don't have to rely on my short term memory and can rest assured that if I forget something, the recording surely won't!

rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which. If you have a way that I can do ACMI in a civilian trainer aircraft, I'm all ears! I guess you've also missed the varios videos on YouTube taken from inside fighter cockpits? Granted they're for sharing and not for learning, but where's the talk of distraction and danger there? I do apologise for not knowing about your 30+ years in the RAF, but I wonder how you expected me to know that? Is it the same way you know that video recording does not work despite not doing it yourself or dealing with people who have done it and learned from it? I would appreciate it if you'd stop projecting on me. Thanks!

[rarelyathome]

jonkster -- thanks! Hard to dismiss the suction cup issue as not all suction cups are made equal.
flyinkiwi -- thanks for sharing your thoughts! As mentioned, I have considered how the camera can be a distraction and I think I've shared my solution for it. I also brain dump (although I use a different term!) after learning sessions but having a camera or video/audio recording means I don't have to rely on my short term memory and can rest assured that if I forget something, the recording surely won't!

rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which. If you have a way that I can do ACMI in a civilian trainer aircraft, I'm all ears! I guess you've also missed the varios videos on YouTube taken from inside fighter cockpits? Granted they're for sharing and not for learning, but where's the talk of distraction and danger there? I do apologise for not knowing about your 30+ years in the RAF, but I wonder how you expected me to know that? Is it the same way you know that video recording does not work despite not doing it yourself or dealing with people who have done it and learned from it? I would appreciate it if you'd stop projecting on me. Thanks!

not sure what projecting on you means but I’ll certainly stop. Bye

[9 lives]

rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which.

N2P, I speak from many decades of advanced instructing and mentoring in dozens of GA types - I'm not new at this. I caution that the perseverance you display in your posts appears to be the "type A" personality, which can make really successful business people. "Type A" makes much less good student pilots. If you were in the cockpit with me, apparently so unwilling to consider experienced advice, we probably would not continue the flight. "Type A" personalities tend to think that they know better when flying, most often they do not. A few of my type A students found themselves suddenly in a very alarming and realistic situation, which I created for them, to bring to their attention why what they had just thought they could do, they should not have attempted.

Of course it's possible to carry cameras, and probably have a good flight, I have done it many times. But, at this stage in your anticipated flight training, the risks exceed the benefits for you. Yes, you could come back here, and tell us that you took two GoPros flying, and watched the video over and over later. Then a wise poster here may tell you that without a mentored review, you're not really learning from your mistakes, your just reinforcing them. Mt wife, who is a college professor tells me about the students who pay close attention in class, and those who record what she says, thinking they'll learn more later from the recording - maybe they do, maybe they don't.

Treat your flying lesson with the seriousness that flying requires - learn during the lesson, with your full attention, learn right, and reinforce building good piloting skills. You've had a wealth of very experienced pilot's advice here, and none of them learned to fly with the aid of recording devices - and look, we're all still flying! Indeed, when I learned to fly, the only video recording possible was a Super 8 movie camera, and yes, my pilot buddy and I did take one flying once. After paying for the film to be developed, we only watched it once, that was in 1978, I have no idea what happened to it.

N2P. you've asked for advice, and got advice - not what you expected, but worthwhile. Whether you follow it or not, we'll never know, but experienced pilots here gave you their best advice. Experienced advice is willingly given here, I hope you'll become memorable as a person who is appreciative to receive it.

[Nurse2Pilot]

9 lives -- please let me be clear here: I greatly appreciate the advice given even if it wasn't what I was expecting. It has allowed me to think of other things that I've initially not thought of. To those that have contributed, thank you! However, please do not confuse my unwillingness to give up audio and video recording with being a difficult student in the cockpit. Recording my flights has zero to do with listening to the flight instructor once the lesson has begun. So far, all I've heard is how this does not work for the instructors in the flight. I'd love to hear how it has worked (or not worked!!) for the students in the flight.


Yes, you could come back here, and tell us that you took two GoPros flying, and watched the video over and over later. Then a wise poster here may tell you that without a mentored review, you're not really learning from your mistakes, your just reinforcing them.We never really got into discussing putting cameras in the cockpit, much less got to the discussion of reviewing the flight with my instructor, maybe even a few other instructors, to get various people's comments on any mistakes or incidents. Thinking that I'm just going to watch the video by myself and not even ask for instructor input is a silly assumption!

Mt wife, who is a college professor tells me about the students who pay close attention in class, and those who record what she says, thinking they'll learn more later from the recording - maybe they do, maybe they don't.I don't understand why you bring up this example. She clearly doesn't know whether the pay-attention group does better than the record-the-class group, so I don't know what point you were trying to make?


Please consider that I work in a field where unwillingness to follow expert advice or knowing better when shown not to be the case can very well mean an innocent loved one ends up dead. Appeals to authority doesn't work, evidence-based arguments does.

[India Four Two]

N2P,

I'm not a power instructor, but I have done a fair bit of glider instructing, most of it well before the GoPro days. I have to say I would not want a student recording his flight on video, for all of the valid reasons mentioned here. This thread has prompted me to raise the topic of in-flight video recording with my club's instructors.

With regard to the video of the Cirrus aborted takeoff, I would suggest the lesson to be learned from that has nothing to do with the pilot's reaction time, which was understandable, given that the oil pressure was only slightly in the yellow - I probably would have continued. The airmanship lesson is that he should have made a call to ATC much sooner, rather than waiting until nearly at the end of the runway. Also, the call is "stopping", not "aborting", at least in all the countries that I fly in.

[AlexJR]

I am newly qualified - so defer to all the more experienced, but anyway.

First few months I asked the instructor to take the occasional pic of me/the countryside so I could show friends and change my work background - I wanted to record everything. Reality is there is zero to be gained from filming the beginning of the course - turning, straight and level etc. Zero. It took me a while to get the flare just right - again, not something you can usefully "fly" on a video.

What could be helpful - stall/spin recovery. You need to take particular actions in quick succession that need to be learned. Less finesse on the inputs like small adjustments to fly straight and level and more bang pitch, bang power and bang climb. Also I think PFLs - again, a succession of actions to learn - pitch for climb etc. I think IF you struggled with these for a couple of weeks you could legitimately ask your instructor to fit a camera.

So my advice is don't waste the mental energy in trying to film hours of boring nonsense BUT when you get to specific points that you struggle with I can certainly see the benefit of 5-10 second videos (longer for PFL) to re-enforce what needs to become muscle memory. And there is nothing wrong with asking for the occasional landscape or you pic - learning to fly is cool and fun and so I can understand why one would want to record it!

[golfbananajam]

I'm not an instructor and nor do I fly anymore but........a friend of mine recorded his first solo and then showed all and sundry the result. What I did notice was that, while giving running commentary during his flight he gained 500ft on the downwind leg. Perhaps concentrating on flying rather than the commentary this may not have happened. Did he notice the error, he certainly didn't mention it and, to be honest, nor did I as I didn't feel it was right to burst his bubble, after all, he did get back safely

[Nurse2Pilot]

India Four Two, thanks for your response! Can I ask you under what conditions would it be acceptable for you for a student to record his flights on video? The reasons mentioned here are indeed valid, but the concerns can also be addressed as I've tried to highlight in post #32.

With regard to the Cirrus video, you've just proven my point! By recording his video, he was able to highlight an issue that was important to him (reaction time) and you have highlighted other issues that he may not even have considered (wrong radio call? calling ATC too late?). All of these may very well not have been identified if he did not record video and audio of the incident, but because we have this recording, we can scrutinize his flight and identify areas where he can improve. This is exactly my aim with my exercise!

I could do a "perfect" flight from start to finish and proudly show it off to one of the instructors who would then proceed to tell me how I can tighten up this "perfect" flight! I may have not made a mistake per se, but I'll still end up with being able to review and learn from what I would've thought was an uneventful flight.


AlexJR, thanks for your input! I will admit that there will probably be parts of my video that I will want to show my friends and family. Aviation is a passion and I don't think I should be sorry for wanting to share my passion. However, that is not the main goal for now and yes, 95% of the video will more than likely be duller than watching paint dry. However, that 5% which could be a perfect learning opportunity, that is why I do this. I cannot predict when that event will happen so best to be prepared, at least that's what I think.

Note that the idea for now is for two cameras, one with 50/50 instruments view and out-the-front view, with probably more favor given to instruments, and the other camera pointed at the pilots, so this isn't really for sightseeing or wallpapers but rather more for review and assessment of flight performance.

Another point is that for this to be a "normal" thing for me, one that will be proven to work time and time again so that it just becomes something that's there and not something to pull out of the bag and figure out and fiddle with on the rare occassions that it's needed. If I'm doing this in 1 out of every 10 flights, then I fully agree that it will become a distraction, an annoyance. If I do it as part of my regular flying, then it just becomes normal. At least that's how my reasoning goes.


golfbananajam, was he really giving a running commentary? If you look at some more videos, a lot of pilots talk to themselves during flying. I don't know if this is the norm or if they do it just for the camera but I know I talk to myself (whisper, more like, but still) whenever I go through my morning checks before a list. Aren't flight crews encouraged to verbalize what they're doing both to record the incident and so that both pilots are on the same page in all phases of flight?

I would like to pose an issue to those that do not or have not encouraged video recording while flying:
Suppose you had to do this but obviously you had your concerns as raised above, what parameters should be in place, what rules or policies would you ask to be implemented in order for you to do this?

Would you ask that camera mounting points are secured to the cockpit via a screw or bolt?
Would you ask that a policy be introduced whereby an instructor can terminate a flight if the student is flying for the camera and that his head isn't in the game, but that the instructor can still charge for the full hour?

What would it need for you to consider this a safe and acceptable condition?

[Maoraigh1]

Fixing an inside-cockpit camers in an LAA Permit aircraft needs approval by an LAA Inspector. The CAA may require a Licensed Engineer to approve.
There's a big difference between doing something illegal on your own, and involving someone whose career would be affected in it.
(I've posted over 100 YT videos, all made before the LAA brought in this rule. It might be easy to prove yours were made recently.)

[jonkster]

Note that the idea for now is for two cameras, one with 50/50 instruments view and out-the-front view, with probably more favor given to instruments.


Up to you but I am not sure the focus on instruments is really going to be of much value in the ab-initio phase. I have sometimes resorted to covering instruments with a post-it note when a student noticeably becomes cockpit focussed rather than looking outside and cannot stop themselves looking inside, (this focus can come from people who have done a lot of self taught computer simulated flight prior to starting actual flight training). Looking at attitudes outside is more the priority.


I would like to pose an issue to those that do not or have not encouraged video recording while flying:
Suppose you had to do this but obviously you had your concerns as raised above,
My 2c FWIW

what parameters should be in place, what rules or policies would you ask to be implemented in order for you to do this?

A big one - the video should not be published publically without my consent.


Would you ask that camera mounting points are secured to the cockpit via a screw or bolt?

Whatever - so long as it was secure and didn't interfere with operations or obstruct visibility. There also may be regulatory obligations in different jurisdictions and if my employer's policy was we had to record lessons, these obligations would have to be complied with otherwise as PIC I could be liable to repurcussions.

Would you ask that a policy be introduced whereby an instructor can terminate a flight if the student is flying for the camera and that his head isn't in the game, but that the instructor can still charge for the full hour?

Not sure that is an issue. I am responsible for the student, the lesson and the flight. If I found they kept getting distracted by the camera I would simply switch it off.

What would it need for you to consider this a safe and acceptable condition?

I am not that worried about any safety implications if the camera was properly mounted (except when the student was operating solo - I would be wary of allowing it if the student was ab-initio and solo - dependent on the student maybe).

My main concern is I am not sure it actually would contribute much to the learning environment of an early student. That said I am also not sure it would detract much either, just think it is just won't give that much value . That of course is my opinion and happy to be shown wrong.

Anything that improves a student's progress and contributes to making a better pilot is welcome but from my perspective, generally reducing complication and focussing on basic sight pictures, reducing stress, building control feel and developing judgement are what I like to work on for early students. I am not sure watching videos of the lesson would add that much value here. Like learning to play and perform with a musical instrument - you can enjoy watching and listening but it doesn't really help that much in learning to do it yourself compared to actually doing it! :)

Despite all of that - talk to your instructor and if they are happy to let you do it, go for it. Why not though do a couple of lessons first and maybe re-consider the camera (and how it could help, where best mounted etc) after you have a better feel for the learning environment?

[CEM1]

I read this thread with interest although I have no particular feelings pro/against using video recordings for learning. But there seems to be a very clear majority view from everybody from newly qualified pilots to very experienced instructors that it is unlikely to add much training value, especially in the very early stages. So why not do as Jonkster says, get the first couple of lessons under your belt and once you have some personal experience, see if and how you still think it would be helpful for you? With the amount of time posting on this thread has doubtless already taken, I bet you could have read most of the Air Law book, which would give you a far better head start before your first lesson!! Good luck with your training- it's a wonderful experience.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Maoraigh1, who said anything about doing anything illegal?

jonkster, the focus on the instruments is there to record what is happening during flight and to verify whatever is necessary during review. What I meant with "more favor" is that it'll probably end up occupying more of the screen than the outside cockpit view, but what the FOV actually captures remains to be seen. Based on other YouTube videos, there seems to be more than enough vertical FOV to capture the ceiling, windshield, instruments, and sometimes even the floor of the cockpit. I think this will depend on where the camera is actually mounted inside the cockpit though.

Consent - totally agree and would not be an issue if the instructor even wanted his face blurred out or something. This is all about respecting other people's privacy and a give-and-take between student and instructor.

Learning - I do agree with you that it is not 100% sure that it will help or will be of value, but it's easier to delete boring videos than it is to build a time machine!

Instructor - As mentioned, I've already spoken to them and the general rule is that it is allowed but for private use only of which I have zero issues whatsoever.

Thanks for being more open-minded in the discussion here! If you think I've not addressed any of the voiced concerns adequately, I'd love to know about what I've missed.

CEM1, thanks for your input! I have read Air Law on the Trevor Thom book and on Phil Croucher's book! I'm also a good few lessons in on the Book 1 Flying Training material, but decided to stop as it's useless until I actually am doing the lessons, I think. Making my way through other material now and the only real reason I'm active on this topic is because of my upcoming flight. Had I not booked it, I wouldn't even have made this thread!

As to adding value, I fully recognize that it might not give value..... or it just might! I'm just not prepared to lose that potential value.

no I am not joking. why would wifi not be used in a light aircraft? we also use it for sky demon and pilot aware.I found where I read it.... it is the last item for the LAE to check under CAP 1369

Policy and guidance on mounting cameras on aircraft
15. In order to reduce the risk of electromagnetic interference (EMI) with aircraft systems, cameras that are equipped with wireless interface and activation systems (including WiFi / Bluetooth and similar wireless technologies with potential for transmitting EMI) should be placed in a ‘flight safe mode’ with the wireless functionality disabled; a limitation note to this effect should be recorded by the LAE below for the attention of the pilot/owner.

Does this then mean the people who use WiFi for other devices shouldn't be doing so? I cannot see the how WiFi for iPads or other devices would be different from WiFi for cameras.

[AlexJR]

I stand by what I said - the first say 20 lessons are all about refinement with power pitch and trim - this is something you need to feel at the time rather than study pre or post. Then you can learn the memory items which I think the video will help with.

But let's get your thoughts after a few filmed lessons to see what your view is? What is your timeline?

[artschool]

I found where I read it.... it is the last item for the LAE to check under CAP 1369

Policy and guidance on mounting cameras on aircraft
15. In order to reduce the risk of electromagnetic interference (EMI) with aircraft systems, cameras that are equipped with wireless interface and activation systems (including WiFi / Bluetooth and similar wireless technologies with potential for transmitting EMI) should be placed in a ‘flight safe mode’ with the wireless functionality disabled; a limitation note to this effect should be recorded by the LAE below for the attention of the pilot/owner.

Does this then mean the people who use WiFi for other devices shouldn't be doing so? I cannot see the how WiFi for iPads or other devices would be different from WiFi for cameras.
that's interesting, but pilot aware definitely relies on wifi to connect to iPads and they aren't prohibited.

[Nurse2Pilot]

What do you mean by "timeline?

artschool, I'm obviously no expert here, so I can just refer you to what I've found. Do you have a source for the rules that say stuff like iPads and pilot aware is allowed?

[ChickenHouse]

that's interesting, but pilot aware definitely relies on wifi to connect to iPads and they aren't prohibited.
They are when using WiFi.

[mary meagher]

Come on, Nurse! Here we all were hoping to read about your experiences flying with an instructor......are you actually going to do it, or is it all still about installing cameras? Come on, lad, inspect the aircraft, walk all around it, make sure to let us know if you notice anything that isn't right....with particular attention to control surfaces.....do you know what they are and what they control?
Flying from time to time in the US, and finding that the aircraft itself looked like it needed some serious maintenance, I have changed my mind about flying that Cessna over Chesapeake Bay. Have . you thought about where you are planning to do your flying? Review the charts, if your instructor had a heart attack, what would you do to save the situation? Would you be able to navigate? or radio for assistance..... Actually, for that matter, are you physically fit to fly? Before solo, an aviation medical may be a good idea. After all, if you are not physically fit for a license, you might like to know about it before spending any money at all on flying lessons.

[artschool]

They are when using WiFi.

how else are you supposed to connect Skydemon to pilot aware then? genuine question?

wifi is the only way as far as I know.

What do you mean by "timeline?

artschool, I'm obviously no expert here, so I can just refer you to what I've found. Do you have a source for the rules that say stuff like iPads and pilot aware is allowed?

I think the poster meant when are you going to go flying?

its been ten days since you posted about learning to fly and we have had some good weather, have you had a chance to go for your first lesson yet?

[Nurse2Pilot]

mary meagher, I think it would be quite difficult to install a camera to record the flight after that flight is complete.


artschool, I don't think I have a timeline per se, if I'm understanding the term correctly. This is mostly to do with my decision to do PPL here in the UK, so 0-PPL may take a month or it may take six, depending on the weather as we all know. If I were taking it in Bartolini in Poland, then the timeline would be obvious. I think I'm answering the question correctly? If someone can rephrase the question, I'd be happy to clarify.

As luck would've had it, today was supposed to be flying day. I was told lessons were cancelled even yesterday due to strong crosswinds with the first flight of the day just barely making it back. The whole instigator of this thread is the fact that I've booked my first flight with the school! I would've loved to have flown earlier but this was the closest slot they had that didn't interfere with work and it seems that my luck is still what it is!

[artschool]

weather is a pain. when's your next lesson booked for?

[Nurse2Pilot]

This Tuesday. The rest of the week will be work and then off to London for the Careers Live event! Busy week!!

[kghjfg]

N2P, have you had a Trial lesson yet?
Trial lessons are fun, I think you are underestimating the workload after that. If you’re not overloaded at all times for the next 45 hours, you’re not doing it right.

At our school we had a chap who wanted to learn to video flights at the same time as learning to fly, he accepted it would take many hours longer to get a license, he even did the odd flight with the instructor flying.

You seem to to think you can learn to video flights and learn to fly at the same time. In fact, you seem to want to learn to video flights more than you want to learn to fly.

Videoing flights is not something you can just “do” even once you have a license. Generally, Pilots are not from the “YouTube generation” so we don’t understand the obsession younger people have with videoing everything, so you’ll get a little bit of push back here because of that.

Go do some flying, you might find out what we are all on about. Go and learn to fly, learning to take videos will not help you learn to fly. Watching videos will not help you learn to fly. Learning to analyse videos of yourself learning to fly will definitely not help you learn to fly.

Have you flown in a light aircraft yet? On the Flyer Forum there is a dedicated student bit, why not start a “my journey” thread in there.



PS. A few years ago a rainbow appeared to my right during a take off roll, and as we climbed the ends of it contracted till I looked at a rainbow circle. I’ve seen some things in my life, that one makes it into the top ten. I watched it, I didn’t video it, I don’t care I didn’t video it, I watched it in real time and was awestruck. One of my friends would have whipped out his iPhone and watched it on a tiny little screen, while it was happening live in front of him, so he could show it to other people on a little screen later. The non YouTube generation find that odd. (and a bit of a shame tbh). We can’t comprehend that behaviour and my friend can’t comprehend I wanted to watch it, not film it. He doesn’t see a difference, I can’t understand how he doesn’t see a difference.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Thanks for your input, kghjfg! Interesting username there too!

I'm not as YouTube generation as you may think. As mentioned in my first and second post, the videos will most likely be just for private use.

I don't really understand what you mean by "learn to video flights".... there isn't much to it at all. Press a button, the GoPro camera records, and that's it. Not very much to learn there! There will be an initial challenge of setting up the cameras but again, with just two cameras and knowing what angles I want to capture, it won't be much work. A few minutes in the cockpit would sort that out and those few minutes do not have to be the at the same day as the flight lesson.

Perhaps you are thinking about editing the video for it to be an interesting YouTube video? If so, then I agree with you that this will take some time and some artistic learning, but this is not what I want to do at this time. All I need for now is to sync the two capture streams and the ATC audio stream and I'm done. I've done this before and it's a 5 minute job, if that. Remember, the idea is just a boring recording of a student as he is learning to fly, and I'll only have two cameras with fixed views, so even if I wanted to make a YouTube video, I won't have much footage to play with and will need more than just two cameras to make an interesting video.

On the Flyer Forum there is a dedicated student bit, why not start a “my journey” thread in there.
I'm not sure I see where this forum you're referring to.



One of my friends would have whipped out his iPhone and watched it on a tiny little screen, while it was happening live in front of him, so he could show it to other people on a little screen later. The non YouTube generation find that odd. (and a bit of a shame tbh). We can’t comprehend that behaviour and my friend can’t comprehend I wanted to watch it, not film it. He doesn’t see a difference, I can’t understand how he doesn’t see a difference.He has saved that unique moment and was able to capture it to share it with friends and family that were not able to have the experience. This is akin to taking photos of your holiday to share with friends and family. Surely you and other people not of the "YouTube generation" do this? He may have not enjoyed it as fully as you have, but he clearly had a different goal compared to you.

He may have watched it on a tiny little screen but playback need not be on the same screen. It may very well be, as it is easier to just whip out the phone and play the video, but depending on how far back this event happened and how tech-savvy your friend is, an iPhone 7 released in 2016 can capture 4K video at 30fps or 1080p video at 60fps, so he may be recording the rainbow circle on a tiny iPhone screen but he can show it off on a 60" 4K television later on.

[9 lives]

N2P, Sure, it's not a big deal to make a video of your first few lessons, and with a little more effort, edit the video. And then, you have a video which interests no one, with your time, effort, and camera expense. That time, effort and expense, had it been devoted to learning piloting, rather than video'ing, would have carried you well through the basic ground briefing, and understanding of the first couple of lessons. For sure, the cumulative replies about video'ing by some very experienced pilots here, probably equal what we pilots would have offered, to give you good piloting advice for those first few lessons! So often here, I have offered advice on piloting, it's a piloting website. Sure, I know about video'ing too, and as I have posted, what I know about video'ing, is that it should be prevented from distracting new pilots.

You can assert that the camera, once set to record, does not distract you while learning - yeah, maybe. But the whole effort does distract you from learning piloting! What'll you do first when you get home, get to the books and study piloting, or pass the books by, and download and edit your video? Oh, now it's 8:30 PM, and you've been at the editing for a few hours, watching the video again and again, and making it perfect - for no real reason. And, you're too tired to focus on the books. You just missed out on the best opportunity to reinforce your learning of the day. So you'll spend your money in an operating airplane the next time, re learning something, which might have stuck if you reviewed the proper training material, rather than home made videos with dubious relevance to training. It's the equivalent in my mind of going home from a flying lesson, and flying your computer flight simulator, rather than reading training books - you're equally likely to reinforce bad learning as good. The books present the right stuff, your videos may not, and you may not know the difference. Would you expect another person to learn correctly by simply watching your videos? No? How then will you?

I had a student who liked to video everything, and I thought of him today, as I watched a great video he took while I landed. It was a smooth landing (on a lake, with a really great 360 degree turn on the step) - I have the video, I had the landing, he had the ride. As I anticipated, he left off flight training, went tech, and is now a drone operator. Great! We need drone operators. But, he's not an airplane pilot. That's all okay, not everyone has to be an airplane pilot. But this discussion is taking place on a pilot forum, where we presume that participants either are, or are pursuing being pilots. The best way through this, particularly considering the cost of operating a plane for learning, is to devote that part of your life to that task, to the exclusion of distracting tech which is not needed, and not helpful.

N2P, I know that you're rolling your eyes, thinking to yourself, geeze.... another old non tech dissenter, who just does not get how important it is to N2P to have videos of his/her accomplishments in the cockpit. Well, my experience was earned by undivided devotion to learning to be a pilot. I was regularly ahead of my lessons by extra time study, and spent several occasions waiting to be old enough to take the next test, or earn the next license. I, and others here, have offered our best advice, as pilots, on a pilot website, about the value of home made videos as a learning tool for basic instruction - little.

Whether you take the advice to leave the camera at home or not is uncertain to me. But, I'm writing to a lot of other new pilots here, who are reading, but not posting. They also pay attention to what they read, and valuable advice offered.

As for wifi/bluetooth, etc. in aircraft, generally it is expected that these systems be formally tested and approved by aviation authorities. Yes, some people operate these systems aboard aircraft, and land safely. But if you operate a transmitting system in an aircraft, and it does interfere with the important aircraft systems, will you know that's happening, and the erroneous indications? The testing is called EMI testing, and there's a lot to it. But please instead of researching that, research just learning the basics of piloting, so that one day, your well earned advice will be valuable to another aspiring pilot!

[AlexJR]

Timeline question was just how often you were able to dedicate to it - take a month off work and sink £8k or do what I did and spend 18 months over sunny weekends (not as many as one would hope for!).

I am 34 and consider my self to be quite tech orientated. I very recently qualified and on my first trip solo took a GoPro with a clamp, phone and a digital SLR for the trip down to Bembridge. The GoPro stayed in the bag - I realised while working through the check list that I did not want my wife to have a post-mortem video of me doing something stupid : ). As has been said, you have a limited time period with the aircraft so setting up camera just eats into prep and flying time. The SLR stayed on the passenger seat left on and was raised to the window maybe 10 times total when there was a particular view. But again the pics do not do the experience justice. The first time the land below gave way to sea, just not a feeling that can be captured with film, although the couple of pics of the aircraft carrier in the Solent made for good talking points!

You have a captive audience here that [to some extent at least!] enjoys the way you convey yourself, challenging the opinions given is no bad thing. Not sure about the others but I look forward to reading your accounts of those first few lessons and how they make you feel. The elation/fear/frustration all at the same time. Write about that and ask the instructor to take the occasional pic then we will all be happy!

[Nurse2Pilot]

9 lives, thank you again for your input. Trust me, there is no rolling of eyes here!

Allow me to try to clarify four assumptions you've made:
Video interest - I think you're still missing the point of this exercise. I may end up after a flight with just an hour of video from each camera, only 1-2 minutes of which will be interesting. I'm not taking a video for the 58 minutes of boring, I'm taking the video of the 2 minutes that is useful. As it is hard to predict when that useful bit of video will happen during the flight, I will need to record the whole thing so as to "set it and forget it" and not be distracted by having to operate the cameras during flight. Again, this video is for flight review or performance review, not to be interesting or entertaining. It's a bonus if it gets all of that, but that is not the goal.

Editing time - As for editing the video, like I said, it'll take 5 minutes or so and done. Maybe even quicker the more used to it I get. It will nowhere take hours and there's no need for it to be perfect. All it needs is for the two video streams to be in sync with the audio stream so that it doesn't look like a badly-dubbed old chinese action film, save the file, done. Rendering the video will take time, but I can simply click the render button and go back to studying or go to bed.... no need to babysit this process.

Backup time - I also don't have to do this immediately after the flight, I can do it the next day or the day after and save the immediate post-flight evening for brain dumping and recording what I've learned or reading or whatever that is best done at that time. Nowhere in this thread have I mentioned that I'll be doing this straight after a flight.

Purpose - it is not to record my accomplishments but rather my mistakes. I have no interest in replaying the things I'm already doing correctly but I have great interest in the things I'm doing wrong. Why did I do it wrong? Did I mis-judge the aircraft attitude? Was I distracted by looking at one gauge instead of another? and so on...


I'll say it again --- I value the piloting advice you and others have given, but this thread was supposed to be about recording in-cockpit audio and video, not what to do before/during/after my flight lessons. People keep responding to the thread by responding to their own assumptions instead of reading what is written and addressing that. Sadly, people who may come to this thread to read about how to take in-cockpit audio and video will find little on that topic and loads and loads of info on another. However, I do hope they listen to the warnings here and if they think they may fall into issues mentioned, that they re-assess their plans on taking in-cockpit videos.

I do agree with you regarding bluetooth though. It's one more thing to test and worry about and it's really easy just to reach over and click the record button on the GoPros so no need for this layer of complexity!



AlexJR, unfortunately, the decision to do training in the UK meant not taking time off work and sinking 8K into it. If that was the plan, then I'd have gone to Bartolini instead of the local flight school. The timeline will be however long it takes for me to sync up my free time with a free slot and good flying weather. Luckily, I have three or four days off per week and it's not always on the weekends so maybe that'll go in my favor.... maybe not. We'll see!

Prep time - as mentioned, the aircraft already has a clip mount for the behind-the-head GoPro. The one that will be facing the pilots will need a bit more prep time but that doesn't have to be at the same time as the flight and once the RAM mount is set, it's a simple process of attaching the RAM suction mount to the glass windshield or window. If the suction mount proves to be unreliable, then perhaps putting another clip mount near the desired location will be a solution, with some clever use of the RAM system to still have the camera end up getting the same view. Therefore, while prep time will be an issue at the start, once things are in place, setting up the camera should take minimal time. After a few flights, it will become routine and just done and not spared another thought.

Stupid - I'm not really concerned about this as training time is really the time to be doing stupid things, having those stupid things identified, and having it weeded out. Since it's for private use only (myself and instructors), I'm not bothered and the earlier it is identified and sorted, the better.

Sharing - Those instances where you raised your SLR to take pictures was 10 instances where people could definitely argue you've become distracted. Should I expect to encounter such interesting views, I would either borrow another GoPro (or see if I can snag one cheap!) or point one of my cameras outside, press the record button, and just fly. With the wide FOV of the GoPros, it'll be hard to miss a good shot!

Training - I'm keeping a log of journey but I'm sure this has been done to death already by both modular and integrated pilots alike! I'll definitely post some questions and such but didn't really think of sharing the log. kghjfg did mention a Flyer Forum but I don't seem to see it anywhere. Thank you for being a "captive audience" though and I will share whatever you want to read! Maybe we can compare notes; I also like reading about other people's experience!

[kghjfg]

Google “Flyer forum” !!
it’s associated with Flyer magazine.

Take this in the spirit it’s asked...
I’m wondering if you think that a GoPro would have helped you learn how to ride a bike? or a GoPro in the back of the car during driving lessons would have helped?

BTW, if you think you’ll be making 2 minutes of mistakes and 58 minutes of flying, you might want to strike that and reverse it.

You’ve still not answered as to whether you’ve flown in a light aircraft yet? I only ask because it still seems like you are putting the cart before the horse.

[rarelyathome]

Where will you do your training? Asking because I want to be sure to stay away from the area. You talk about mounting a camera on the glass windshield or window thus creating a blind spot impacting on lookout. I am absolutely horrified you have an instructor who is happy for you to do that.

[artschool]

good luck for your first lesson today!

[jonkster]

good luck for your first lesson today!
+1

enjoy! :)

[AlexJR]

Yes, as the less cynical have said, good luck!

I take your point on the distraction - just as checking the map, SkyDemon, carb heat etc. all distract you from looking out. We do these things when straight and level having just had a good look out. I guess for me it's about recording a snapshot of a moment that sticks out. If you look at some of the trip reports, the compelling ones are the pictures + commentary, not the videos. But that is off topic, the question is whether it is a useful learning tool and that will be for you to decide.

[Nurse2Pilot]

artschool, jonkster, AlexJR - thanks guys! Unfortunately, the sky doesn't look too good plus it's cold out, so I wonder if we're going flying today. I'll visit the school later anyway and see if I can do look at the PA-38s and do some setup practice. Not yet sure about when the next "first" lesson will be booked, some issues with instructor availability going forward but this is another topic I'll be taking up with them when I visit later today. EDIT: Looks like the sky's clearing up though! I wonder if anyone has cancelled for this afternoon and I can take his place?

AlexJR - regarding distraction, I was just pointing out that being distracted 10x in a flight vs. having a camera to record everything and then just picking the good moments later on once safely on the ground --- does this mean my method is safer? Yes, we already do other things in the cockpit so one less (or ten less) distraction will help? Not to mention a really expensive loose item in the cockpit! I'm sure your SLR is not as rugged as an action camera!

[9 lives]

attaching the RAM suction mount to the glass windshield or window

I suggest that you have the permission of the person who owns the plane (not just the instructor, but the owner). I do not allow headsets on the glareshield, for not wanting scratches on the inside of my windshield, so I certainly would not be sticking things to the inside of the windows. I agree that the suction cup itself will not scratch, but dirt, or if someone wipes off the smudge after, may result in a scratch, and you don't want to know the cost to replace a windshield. As said, if to stick something on a window, in your plane of view, you're obstructing outside vision, I would not allow that.

If you're attaching something behind you, make sure that it cannot come off and hit you during the crash. To meet safety requirements, it must be able to withstand a 9G times 1.5 factor of safety force. It is very unlikely that your instructor is qualified to make this assessment, seek the concurrence of the aircraft maintenance person.

PA-38's are lots of fun! They're crisp to fly, and worth the effort in precise learning. Some pilots nay say them, but I flew a couple of them for a few hundred hours, and quite liked them.

[Nurse2Pilot]

kghjfg - I Googled it, are you referring to this site? https://forums.flyer.co.uk/
Sorry for the confusion, I thought you were talking about a subforum on PPRuNe and not a different forum altogether.

In all honesty, I'm not sure if a GoPro may have helped with learning to ride a bike or learning to drive a car; I've never thought about it. However, we are starting to introduce cameras during training sessions in the workplace and during a simulated emergency scenarios with 15-20 people in the room, the recorded footage can be quite valuable. So maybe it depends on what is being recorded? I think there clearly is value to recording things and it is better to have useless footage of an event than to have missed a good learning opportunity because I did not think there was value to recording the event.

As for making mistakes, if I think 2 minutes out of 60 makes the video recording effort worth it, does anyone really think having more learning opportunities out of 60 minutes will make video recording less valuable?

It's funny how willingly and easily people seem to jump onto assumptions of ego and vanity, skill level, and wasted effort, yet cannot seem to get into the assumption that I've had some flying experience. To answer your question, yes, I've flown light aircraft and gliders. I've also taken and edited videos, normally for special occassions like birthdays and wedding anniversaries. I've just not mixed the two before (video capture and flying) and definitely not in this way that I'm attempting now (with ATC comms), hence the thread.



rarelyathome - I thought you've stopped and left? Can't resist to return and make an absolutely hilarious assumption as to the size of the blind spot and how it impacts lookout? Here, I've made you a picture so you can see how small the blind spot is.

https://i.imgur.com/h664ZTN.jpg




If you're worried about me and my little PA-28/PA-38 making circles in the sky, you may want to find out where these guys are flying out of! Not only are they flying with at least two GoPros blocking that all-important lookout, they're flying a slightly bigger aircraft too, a 747! The horror!!

https://i.imgur.com/syDYsdp.jpg

Article - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3609161/Behind-flight-deck-door-serving-airline-captain-reveals-s-REALLY-happening-cockpit-plane-hurtles-runway-comes-landing.html

[9 lives]

C'mon N2P.

As the first photo shows, you could block out several airplanes in formation with that much vision blocked! A GoPro is small, but so is relative traffic. If on a true collision course, an on coming airplane may appear to have zero relative motion to you, and thus "appear" to stay at the same angle of view - meaning a plane could stay blocked behind you GoPro for some time, unless you're doing the neck thing to constantly look around it (distraction).

The two pilots in the jet cockpit have twice the lookout power, and between them no blind spot, and they are flying in a fully controlled environment the whole time, with ATC traffic separation, and TCAS. They are not actually required to look out the windshield for a lot of the flight.

You mention using the video later for training, that could be very good if a qualified trainer is reviewing the video with the student(s). I trust that you don't just record the video, and send a copy home with each student, with the instruction that they watch it, and see if they can spot any errors! That's how poor training would be done! For the video you collect, is it your plan to pay your instructor their time to review the video with you? Wouldn't it be more cost effective to just pay them for their time in the lesson as the rest of us have?

[rarelyathome]

N2P. I own a go pro so know how large they are. 9 lives has given you a reply as to why your comment to me does you absolutely no credit. When you have been flying for a few lessons, you will see just how small a conflicting aircraft is until it is very close. That there is no relative movement between 2 aircraft on a collision course means that any blockage of lookout is dangerous. You will soon start to wonder whether that really is a squashed fly on the windscreen or a conflicting aircraft.

[Reverserbucket]

This is mostly to do with my decision to do PPL here in the UK, so 0-PPL may take a month or it may take six, depending on the weather as we all know.
Six months to complete a PPL in the UK at this time of year? Are you serious? You'd be hard pressed to manage that full-time, let alone working in between in my view.

Regarding filming, a school I know put a blanket ban on use of recording devices both in flight and in the vicinity of the apron due to safety concerns - students wandering around filming with no regard for taxying aircraft (same with MP3 - think pedestrians on zebra-crossings wired for sound vs situational awareness). Airborne, students became distracted by cameras, preoccupied with the recording device (set and forget not always as easy as you may think), devices discovered mounted outside of the cockpit through the DV window etc., blind-spots created, FOD...

Frankly, I would have thought that the OP would probably be wiser to invest some time and effort into studying the books and focussing on the more critical elements of flight training than GoPro equipage, but I'm from a different generation I suspect.

[Nurse2Pilot]

9 lives - thanks for that! I did not consider that the school may not own the aircraft, I assumed that since the school operated the aircraft, that they owned it? I realize now that may not always be the case. I'll be sure to ask! Speaking of scratches, surely not all aircraft windows are scratch-free? Surely they don't need to be replaced at the lightest scratch? The aircraft available to me have been in grass fields so I'd guess it has some small scratches here and there.

My initial flight will be in a PA-28 but I plan to do most of my training in the PA-38s for the reasons you mention, plus the fact that they are cheaper to fly and I estimate about £1,000+ difference in cost once the 45 hours are up! Looks like a win-win scenario to me!


As the first photo shows, you could block out several airplanes in formation with that much vision blocked!
I do hope you realize that picture was meant as a joke! To clarify, the plan for the second camera is to be in a location similar to this shown in Stefan Drury's video, but mine will be on the opposite side, to where the arrows are pointing. As you can see, while it does obstruct a little of the view, it will be below the eye level of the pilot so unless the oncoming traffic is on a lower altitude and coming up, it should be okay. I can also mount it just below the window or windshield as shown by the second red arrow, so as to give the pilot a totally unobstructed view. However, I also need to ensure it does not get in the way of the yoke or other controls and that's why I need to have a sit down in the cockpit to have a look-see.

https://i.imgur.com/H1yMFvN.jpg


As for the video review, you are making assumptions about how the video will be used after the flight and I'm honestly getting tired of correcting answers made from wrong assumptions, but anyway.... the instructor does not have to watch the whole video. Like I said, if it was 58 minutes of boring and 2 minutes of interesting footage, we only really need to watch that 2 minutes. Bringing up an issue of something I did wrong during the flight, do you think it's better to go off each other's recollection of the incident or watching a video for a clear, impartial review of the incident?

"Hey Instructor! Remember that time when...."
"Um, no, not really..."
"Here, watch this.... I wanted to clarify what you meant when you said...."

"Hey, N2P! That bit earlier when we were practicing.... you did this instead of that..."
"I was distracted and probably overloaded, so I can't clearly recall...."
"It was about 35 minutes into the flight... let's review what happened...."
Much more useful, no?



N2P. I own a go pro so know how large they are. 9 lives has given you a reply as to why your comment to me does you absolutely no credit.
So you know how much they can impact the lookout. Hiding behind other people does you no credit, and as you can see, I've already thought of the obstruction issue and have a Plan B should it be a significant hindrance during flight. How can I take you seriously about any claims you make like this one regarding obstruction and cameras when you've already admitted you can't give me any of your actual experience because you've never allowed cameras? Yet you persist....


Where will you do your training? Asking because I want to be sure to stay away from the area.
Speaking of credit, you seem to forget you've made this statement..... I wonder how that does you any credit? 30+ years in the RAF and however many number of years instructing but still making jabs like this towards an aspiring pilot after you've said you were leaving the thread....


When you have been flying for a few lessons, you will see just how small a conflicting aircraft is until it is very close. That there is no relative movement between 2 aircraft on a collision course means that any blockage of lookout is dangerous. You will soon start to wonder whether that really is a squashed fly on the windscreen or a conflicting aircraft.
I know this concept very well. You must've missed that bit about light aircraft and gliders. Do you fly in F-16s all the time with a bubble cockpit? Do you keep your head in one position only and just turn left/right for lookout? Or do you "look around," move your head, change your viewpoint so that blindspots from the obstructing parts of the airframe are cleared? Considering how big the other parts of the aircraft are with respect to obstruction, is a GoPro really going to be blocking that much that can't be cleared with the usual head movements required to see around the aircraft frame?



Reverserbucket - thanks for your input! Read my reply to AlexJR in post #70... the timeline will be however long it takes. I can definitely take time off work to give this a good push but there's no sense in doing that at this time of year!

I understand the reasoning behind the ban, but how would you feel if you were not allowed something because someone else was too stupid to do it safely? I appreciate my flight school for being open minded and judging me on my merits, not based off of someone else.

As for time investment,
https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/610689-pre-flight-reading-ppl.html - I've been enjoying reading the books
https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/611981-ppl-question-bank-app.html - and testing my knowledge
and surely not 100% of my time must be invested in ground study especially since we both agree that this may well take longer than 6 months, so what's the harm in looking up other topics that might aid me in my learning?

[BDAScott]

Been lurking while but have to put my thoughts in here. I was initially drawn to this thread as I am in the early days of flight training and wanted to get a camera or two and mic setup so I can record solo flights.... That being said, this has been a nearly 2 week, 80+ post thread where one beginner pilot wants to set up cameras, and a bunch of experienced pilots are saying avoid it at this point in your flying career.

Sorry N2P, but the comment further up about being a "Type A" person definitely resonates here. You seem to have an answer for everyone when they advise you against it... everything they say is either an assumption or factually incorrect in your eyes, and that the cameras for learning are the way to go. You have in your head a majestic videoing environment and the value you'll get from it, and seemingly will disagree with anyone who goes against that vision.

I won't say that your idea of a camera setup is wrong, as I'm too inexperienced in the field to know, but if there is anything I've learning from training so far is to listen and learn from the experienced until you are experienced enough to make your own choices. .... You've initially posted the thread so you can learn to do something that you haven't done by people who have. The majority have noted that you shouldn't bother doing it at this stage.

Perhaps you should take the answer that you need to hear, not the answer you want to hear?

[kghjfg]

N2P, you didn’t mention for quite some time that you have flown in a glider and in a light aircraft before. As you are saying this will be your first lesson, I presume you were a passenger.

I think everybody here wishes you well, (I do). Enjoy your lessons.

That is the correct flyer forum, there is a student bit where students can ask for help without being flamed out of existence!!

One point, that 45 hours, it’s a minimum. Few manage to pass in 45 hours, and some of the best pilots I know certainly didn’t.

Have fun! Do start a “my story” thread and let us know how it’s going, you never know, maybe some more experienced pilots / flying instructors might be able to help you with some advice one day.

[Reverserbucket]

is a GoPro really going to be blocking that much that can't be cleared with the usual head movements required to see around the aircraft frame?
Perhaps not, relative to other obstructions such as the wing etc. but the thought of obscuring part of the purpose-built windshield in a PA38 is surely a hazard to flight safety...and I've had an airprox with an F16 - blind spot created by the arm of my sunglasses. As you're going to PCL this weekend, why not speak to the large schools exhibiting and ask their opinion on this.

[rarelyathome]

So you know how much they can impact the lookout. Hiding behind other people does you no credit, and as you can see, I've already thought of the obstruction issue and have a Plan B should it be a significant hindrance during flight. How can I take you seriously about any claims you make like this one regarding obstruction and cameras when you've already admitted you can't give me any of your actual experience because you've never allowed cameras? Yet you persist....

Speaking of credit, you seem to forget you've made this statement..... I wonder how that does you any credit? 30+ years in the RAF and however many number of years instructing but still making jabs like this towards an aspiring pilot after you've said you were leaving the thread....

I know this concept very well. You must've missed that bit about light aircraft and gliders. Do you fly in F-16s all the time with a bubble cockpit? Do you keep your head in one position only and just turn left/right for lookout? Or do you "look around," move your head, change your viewpoint so that blindspots from the obstructing parts of the airframe are cleared? Considering how big the other parts of the aircraft are with respect to obstruction, is a GoPro really going to be blocking that much that can't be cleared with the usual head movements required to see around the aircraft frame?


I persist because I care about flight safety. I don't need to obscure my view from the cockpit to know it's not a good idea to block the view. I will butt out now because you are clearly somebody who knows best. You come across as a very aggressive person which is surprising given you were asking for help and all I and other instructors, as well as other qualified and student pilots, have tried to do is pass on advice and experience. I do hope you succeed with your ambitions and, if you do, I hope you will look back on these exchanges with a different perspective. I see from the Instructors' forum that you have ambitions to instruct at some stage. To do so, you will need a change in your approach to advice that contradicts your preconceptions. As I say, I wish you well.

[Maoraigh1]

You could fix the camera behind you, showing instruments and nose attitude. Risk is it'll be able to hit a head in an accident. Yours or the instructor.
Some YT videos were done with the GoPro on the back wall of the cockpit. The pilot is an instructor, flying solo.

[airpolice]

I think that the OP asked for help to do something, not advice on why it's not considered a good idea by some.

[kghjfg]

I think that the OP asked for help to do something, not advice on why it's not considered a good idea by some.

Good point!

Now, can anyone advise me which is the best PC flight sim for flying visual circuits? I’m going to train for these at home*

I’m also considering not bothering with checklists at all, I’ve already written down and memorised all the standard mnemonics, I need to start making some up for “Pre Start”, could you all help?*


*any advice on why this may not be a good idea will be discarded.

[9 lives]

I think that the OP asked for help to do something, not advice on why it's not considered a good idea by some.

Indeed, the OP did so. Other posters may then choose to offer their wisdom, or not. That said, considering that some posters do not support the "what" of what is proposed to be done, it's not surprising that they will use the inquiry about "how" to comment the "what". I won't offer people advice on how to drive their car, if I know that their intent is to street race it, my advice to them would be at a more basic level.

Similarly here. If I were reading a post from a long established aircraft owner, asking how to get an approval to mount a camera in/on and aircraft, my answer would have been somewhat different (though still embedding some thoughts for new pilots who could think of video as a training aid for primary instruction).

In any case, no one has been rude here, and people have unified on a few themes. The fact that those unified thoughts do not correspond with what the OP sought to have as a reply, is hopefully a learning point for the OP, and more importantly, the many new and eager techy pilots to be who are probably also reading this thread. Perhaps they'll consider the plan with a broader perspective.

[Fly Through]

https://youtu.be/f4B-OxnxwaA

[artschool]

https://youtu.be/f4B-OxnxwaA
that is an insane piece of footage.

[airpolice]

You go left, and I'll go right!

[Maoraigh1]

Was it a planned video stunt? The plane on the runway should have been visible earlier, even if no radio communication.

[jamesgrainge]

Perhaps you should take the answer that you need to hear, not the answer you want to hear?

Plus one. In all fairness I was exactly the same when I started. I already knew how everything was going to go, I already knew everything and found the opposing views difficult to hear. This forum is littered with my unhelpful assumptions.

Since passing I have met so many helpful and intelligent people and now with a bit of perspective can offer much more rounded advice, thanks to the the time and patience others have shown me. Eternally grateful.

It's probably made me a better pilot as well.

The only problem with the online forum is the difficulty in assessing tone of the words typed.

[artschool]

Plus one. In all fairness I was exactly the same when I started. I already knew how everything was going to go, I already knew everything and found the opposing views difficult to hear. This forum is littered with my unhelpful assumptions.

Since passing I have met so many helpful and intelligent people and now with a bit of perspective can offer much more rounded advice, thanks to the the time and patience others have shown me. Eternally grateful.

It's probably made me a better pilot as well.

The only problem with the online forum is the difficulty in assessing tone of the words typed.

I agree with you.

I planned to GoPro every flight and had permission from the instructor and the school to do so, but soon realised that after a few videos it was not relevant and it was better to concentrate on learning to fly!