Learn to glide?

[Jazzer83]

Evening all.

Would anyone recommend learning to glide? I'm 35 years old and always wanted to be a pilot since childhood. Unfortunately I've never had the cash to fund training and have only ever had 2 flying lessons given as gifts by family.

I am interested in the learn to glide package offered at the Scottish gliding centre for £250. I've also been considering lapl or ppl training as I now have the funds to do so.

I'm really not sure what's the best idea. Does anyone on here have their experience they would like to share or any advice for me?

Thanks in advance.

Jazzer83

[Pegpilot]

Evening Jazzer
I speak as a glider pilot of a quarter century standing. Firstly, the £250 offer from SGC is highly unlikely to get you to solo standard - you should reckon on 50 to 100 winch launches, less if you're mixing it up with aerotowing. But the good news is that Portmoak is seen as a bit of a Mecca for us southerners given its standing as a "Wave" site with spectacular mountain wave lift to ridiculous heights on good days. On the downside, gliding is highly time consuming, as we all muck with getting gliders launched and running the ground operation, so if you have a young family this might be a concern. But hey, give it a go and see if it's for you - the £250 deal effectively gives you 3 months membership and flying and you'll know by the end of that whether it's for you. By way of comparison, in gliding you can apply for a LAPL(Sailplane) once you've got your Cross County Endorsement, which clears you to fly cross country tasks on good days. It ought to be possible to get that far after a couple of years or so at your age. And you'll find that glider pilots are some of the nicest, mutually supportive people you could hope to meet. Let us know how you get on, whether power or gliding.
Cheers
Pegpilot

[Jazzer83]

I do have a young family which is a concern I have to admit. In terms of powered flying and from my research it would appear that aircraft such as the ev97 Eurostar, Ikarus 42 or Aquila a211 are the way to go.

I have read that to go solo in a glider costs around £1000 which in comparison to powered flying seems very reasonable. To get a ppl it appears that £10k is about what it would cost then about £150 an hour to hire an aircraft for an hour. No wonder a lot of people simply cannot afford to pursue their dreams of flying!

[chevvron]

Learning to glide first makes you a better pilot when you add an engine.
Years ago I compared the costs and found that there was little difference between learning to fly gliders and learning to fly powered. Course it's different nowadays as there are different 'routes' to powered flying eg microlights, LAPL etc.

[Maoraigh1]

I started gliding at 19. At 24 I got a PPL. Gliding was a whole day for a few winch launches.
If you can afford it, a continuous, full-time microlight course would be the cheapest.
The aircraft you mention are not cheap. There are much cheaper ones.
XrayAlpha on this forum may offer advice.

[scifi]

Been trying to get some flights in the last fortnight in the midlands area, and the weather has been non too good. At the present it is even worse up in Scotland, so you need to keep up to date with the weather. You can sometimes spend a whole morning in the clubhouse waiting for a break in the weather, that never happens. So factor that into your plans, if you need to travel to your airfield.
.

[blind pew]

Unlike powered flying which gets boring gliding is three dimensional chess. The skill level can be far higher than powered flying and the possibilities endless but as pointed out it is time consuming and frustrating.
Give it a go as you won't regret it.
From a guy who was flown all sub sonic forms of aircraft bar autogiros.

[India Four Two]

Give it a go as you won't regret it.

I absolutely agree with blind pew's recommendation. Even if you don't continue with gliding after the course, what you learn will stand you in good stead with any form of flying you decide to continue with.

[rich34glider]

Hi Jazzer83 - 30 year glider (and ex-PPL) pilot from downunder here. If you want to fly because you love being airborne, and you have a sense of adventure, then gliding is definitely a lot more interesting that PPL flying. Possibly not cheaper initially i.e. before you go solo but definitely much cheaper afterwards. The downside is you can't really just rock up to the airfield and go flying for an hour - it's usually an all-day commitment, although that would depend on the club. Good luck!

[mary meagher]

Hey, Jazz83, DO NOT RUSH OUT AND BUY A GLIDER! not yet, anyway. But in Scotland there are at least three of the finest gliding clubs and sites in the WORLD! no kidding. It has something to do with those rows of mountains you have down the middle of your country.
First of all, learning to fly a glider, especially in Scotland, means you enjoy mountain wave conditions; once in touch with the wave of the day you can fly for hours....no fuel required! I have done a lot of wave soaring at Deeside club. But do check out your nearest gliding club. As far as your family is concerned, children can go solo at 14 in a glider....and they usually learn quicker than the grownups do.

[AlexJR]

I am your age - recently attained PPL.

I guess it depends what you want to get out of it. If the ultimate goal is to be able to pack your family into a PA28 for a jaunt to France, Devon or the IOW etc then you have to go PPL. It is expensive but if you budget over a couple of years and save before then it is manageable(ish!).

If it is for you and the wife to do the above then go LAPL route - they look great, are cheaper, quieter etc. But ultimately you are limited by weight constraints.

The glider route never appealed, purely because option 1 above is for me. I cannot take a day to go flying (just imagining the wife's face!) and ultimately the dream is an SR22 and the freedom to travel Europe. Even imagining being up with the family above the clouds - just us - AMAZING. £250 for a few weekends of fun in a glider sounds great - beats 1.5 hours in a 30 year old Cessna, but depends on if it's a fun few weeks you are looking for or a long term goal.

So think what you want from it and go from there.

[Jazzer83]

Thanks everyone. I think I'll give gliding a go. There are incredible YouTube videos of people gliding and it does look awesome.

[FullWings]

I was up at Portmoak last week and had some amazing flying.

Much of the gliding movement in the UK has cottoned on to the fact that people are no longer satisfied with pushing gliders around in the mud all day for a chance of a three minute circuit. Sites like SGC with thermal, hill and wave soaring possibilities use them to great extent during training. At my club in the South you can book instructional slots, just like at a power flying establishment.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/968x686/mull_323a0ebbabd0e6dfb60b39d85b90824cd6bcd8fb.jpg

Looking west towards Mull.

[Jazzer83]

Wow, great picture! What altitude was that taken at?

[FullWings]

From memory around 11,000’. Will have a look at the logger trace...

Edit: About that, yes. We had been up to 18,000’ earlier but -23C was a wee bit cold in the cockpit so we let down to warm up!

[Jazzer83]

That's something you couldn't do in a Cessna or Piper!

[Curlytips]

Actually, my 172 has a ceiling of 17,000 feet (180 HP conversion) but it does take a long time for the last few thousand. On the other hand, it does have a heater ��

[Jazzer83]

Rich34glider,

What made you switch from power to gliding? How many hours do you fly in a year?

With power flying once qualified I could maybe afford £2-2.5k a year which would only get me 20hrs max.

I figure that for the same price I could get at least double that in gliding hours.

[DeepestSouth]

My three pen'orth. Started gliding at 15, long break (exams and University) then started again at 21, then motorglider PPL as it then was - really started off practicing for land outs and caught the sort-of-powered flying bug. Then a 'proper' PPL but a) it got too expensive and b) it was just too restrictive (all the procedural stuff and so on) compared to soaring so at age 26 back to gliding and it was just SO much more fun.

It really depends on what you want to do. For me the real joy is and always was pure flight. The ground support stuff was worth it for that, and in itself was often fun with good company and banter. I enjoyed winch driving and retrieving cables, pushing and pulling gliders etc!

Find a friendly club!

[FullWings]

Actually, my 172 has a ceiling of 17,000 feet (180 HP conversion) but it does take a long time for the last few thousand. On the other hand, it does have a heater ��
Could have done with one of those in the footwell. Didn’t dress in all my arctic gear as I didn’t think the wave was going that high.

As of a couple of weeks ago, you will need a very serious aircraft indeed to go higher than a glider can (http://www.perlanproject.org/blog/perlan-2-soars-above-76000-feet) - I don’t think there is anything sub-sonic that is able to.

[Curlytips]

Yes, absolute kudos to all glider pilots, far more skilful than us noddy pilots - but it depends on what you want to do, whether you need to go places, etc. I did start gliding at first, but it was an all day affair, and sometimes after helping everyone else, I still didn't get aloft. Switched to powered and never looked back, but still practice gliding every now and then for PFLS, and on one occasion it was the real thing!

[LTCTerry]

Jazzer83,

Good question. Short answer is "yes." As is the longer answer. I fly gliders and airplanes. Enjoy them both for different purposes. I had been flying airplanes for 33 years before my first real glider training. I've been flying gliders for almost eight years now.

Long term, soaring is likely cheaper than airplane flying. In my club I pay $5 plus tow* for the flight - whether it's five minutes or 90. Everything about flying a glider translates to flying an airplane. Airplane-only instructors will comment about how good I am using the rudder instead of leaving my feet on the floor.

*A winch launch makes for rather inexpensive flights.

An instructor I hadn't flown with before pulled the power on downwind in a 172 once. I put in 10 degrees of flaps on downwind, 10 more on base, and the final 10 on final. He commented "most pilots wait until they have the runway made to put in flaps." I replied, "I had the runway made one downwind." :) It's not bragging if it's true...

Soaring in most places is done in a club environment. This is a pleasant though labor intensive process. It's not great for people with small kids and spouses with big "honey do" lists. With an airplane you can do the washing up after breakfast and be home for lunch.

I've been spoiled flying bubble canopy airplanes in Europe. Much nicer view than the Arrow or 172 I usually fly now. Gliders have a wonderful view. Imagine looking down on snow covered mountains from 18,000 feet! Modern light sport/ultralight planes have great visibility in many cases.

You can start with a glider and add on Touring Motor Glider. You can do microlights. You have LAPL and PPL options that all have their own rules. The glider experience will make for a better power pilot even if all the hours don't "count" towards the minimum for some powered license. Most people don't make it in the minimums but you might starting with a glider.

There are great clubs in Scotland. (I got to fly one afternoon with club near Loch Levin last summer. Actually flew over the water for a bit. Beautiful. My wife wants to emigrate.)

Flying anything is a great experience. You will learn new facts and skills regardless of your choice.

Did you see that someone just flew from Scotland to N. Ireland a few days ago? In a glider... And flew back!

Be safe and have fun.

Terry

[cats_five]

Yes, absolutely, and the SGC is a great place to learn. Depending how you measure it, it's the 3rd or 4th larges club in the UK. The one skill PMK Pilots are often short on is thermal soaring. You might want to think about signing up for one of the evening groups next year.

[rich34glider]

Rich34glider,

What made you switch from power to gliding? How many hours do you fly in a year?

With power flying once qualified I could maybe afford £2-2.5k a year which would only get me 20hrs max.

I figure that for the same price I could get at least double that in gliding hours.

I was flying powered for career purposes (military & then CPL which I didn't finish) but I'd started in gliders at 16 because it was cheap and when I eventually chucked in the flying-as-a-career idea & I went back to gliding because it was a lot more fun than most of the powered flying I'd been doing, and it was a lot cheaper - I had about 100 hours of gliding at this stage so not much instruction required.

I currently fly about 50 hrs a year - most of that instructing (which I don't pay for) and the rest in my own glider (also cheap) so I probably spend about 1/2 what you're budgeting - membership fees, glider parts (we do our own maintenance) and a few aerotows over summer. We don't insure our glider (syndicate of 2) as it's not worth it.

I guess it depends why you want to fly, but gliding is very challenging, very fun & very rewarding. The racing & competition side of things is something you won't really get as a PPL. I've also flown higher in a glider than anything powered (that I'm flying anyway!) - 22,000 feet in wave. I've flown cross-country in thermals for over 500 km many times too. Give it a go & see what you think!

[Jazzer83]

Thanks everyone for the numerous replies. I shall sign up for the learn to glide course and see how it goes. For £250 I can't really go wrong can I?

[cats_five]

<snip>
We don't insure our glider (syndicate of 2) as it's not worth it.
<snip>

I guess you mean you have 3rd party insurance only.

[mary meagher]

I hope you all saw the amazing photo on the first page....number 13....of the view from a glider over Scotland. O yes. A while ago I managed to achieve that same view, which proves that Scotland has salt water on three sides. Amazing day, got to 20,000 feet, with Oxygen of . course, and that was in about 55 minutes after the launch by airtow from Deeside Gliding Club, came off tow on the front of the wave bar, and a steady smooth climb after that, delightful! Only worry was that flying back and forth along the wave bar, I built up some ice on the eastern side of the glider canopy, so decided as there may well have been another glider nearby not so easy to see, that 20,000 plus 200 feet was high enough for the day! . On the way back down to the airfield there was a lovely cloud shaped like a donut, and couldn't resist flying through the donut, not a good idea as the canopy really misted up, but it cleared quickly enough, so returned to the gliding club safely, and turned over my two barographs to the officials, confirming the gain of height. Diamond height. But to tell the truth I was nervous throughout not only because of the canopy misting, but the thought that if my oxygen failed, there would be very little time to descend to safety height. So with diamond height completing my three diamonds, ever since I have enjoyed cross country flying at sensible heights...

[planesandthings]

Fantastic choice of club, SGU at Portmoak gets some of the best flying conditions in the country with long average flight times compared to other clubs without hills. The weather in Scotland isn't as bad as people make out, in fact it can often be pretty poor for power flying but fantastic for Gliding as the conditions aren't always mutual. The £250 course should give you the insight to if it's for you, though you'll probably fly with many instructors it'll be fairly consistent and nearly always free of charge, unlike the power world I've found in which some instructors are just building hours for a job and don't hang around long. Also as part of the British Gliding Association you'll have the opportunity to be welcomed to clubs across the country to experience the broad range of flying on offer, many clubs and individuals even go abroad at reasonable cost to experience flying in the alps or even down in New Zealand, it's a very friendly form of flying. You'll hear horror stories of people slaving away all day to not fly, this is not the norm anymore as clubs have had to adapt to modern times, most clubs just ask for a half day to keep the operation going and many operate free online booking systems to plan the day.

Power Flying isn't put to waste either as once you are qualified with a LAPL or SPL you'll by then hopefully be able to easily convert over to touring motor gliders after some conversion training, many of which are under £100 an hour and are just slightly slower than your average Cessna 150, so fantastic value, and if you're still hungry for more power flying there are route to the LAPL (A) and PPL which lead onto glider towing too!

Enjoy!!

Planesandthings

[rich34glider]

I guess you mean you have 3rd party insurance only.

Well technically yes - which is part of my GFA & club memberships.

[Less Hair]

I would do it. Worth every penny even if you should not continue. Did some two week basic glider course myself (around 50 very short patterns around the field with instructor plus three final solos) back at university. Great experience and teaches you accurate flying. Excellent foundation for possible single engine PPL later as well.

For a beginner some course or school is very good because you make fast progress. Later on a club is nice if you have the time needed. Gliding is not expensive but it's a team sport with a lot of support jobs needed to be done so expect to spend at least one or two weekends a month at your local glider airfield.

[cats_five]

I would do it. Worth every penny even if you should not continue. Did some two week basic glider course myself (around 50 very short patterns around the field with instructor plus three final solos) back at university. Great experience and teaches you accurate flying. Excellent foundation for possible single engine PPL later as well.

For a beginner some course or school is very good because you make fast progress. Later on a club is nice if you have the time needed. Gliding is not expensive but it's a team sport with a lot of support jobs needed to be done so expect to spend at least one or two weekends a month at your local glider airfield.

That sounds like you flew with the Air Cadets. It's a bit different with a gliding club, and at the SGC there will be plenty of hill soaring before going solo, especially in the early stages learning co-ordination etc. Of course hill soaring only when the wind is right!

[BDM]

I cannot offer any advice on gliding specifically in the UK, but concerning gliding in general: Go for it! Have always been an avid aviation enthusiast, but flying myself always seemed unattainable and way too expensive. Then the love of my life arranged an introduction day at a gliding club for my 32nd birthday (member experience, one tow, one wichlaunch) I was immediately hooked.

Soloed that first summer and now four years and (almost) five seasons later I have my SPL, Silver C and have done so many things I would have never thought feasible. Met an interesting bunch of people that have become friends (and who don't feel i'm a weirdo for seeing the difference between a Spitfire Mk. V and IX in a eyeglance)

Many of the younger members of our club are professional pilots that all seem to agree that gliding is the most pure and free way of experiencing flight. There are no words to describe that first solo launch, first flight in a composite glider, first XC, first 5 hour flight, ... And the gliding community is really that, a community. Every time I have flown at a different field, the welcome has always been ridiculously warm.

The costs rules out a PPL for me for the moment, but being in a vibrant club (on an interesting field) I have tasted motor flying, was a passenger on a Piper Cub flight crosschannel to your shores, saw a P51 beat up our field while thermalling and so on and so on. If flying is for you, you'll never look back. Just my two (euro)cents 😉

[Less Hair]

No, I flew at Lübeck, northern Germany, via my university sports department back then. One of the few commercial gliding schools in Germany. Kind people and good place.

A two week absolute beginners gliding course (up to solo if you pass like 50 very short flights) is below some 1000 Euros (plus living and accomodation) I lived in a wooden hut on the airfield back then. After two weeks I could solo for short flights around the field under supervision of my instructor on the ground. Spectacular fun. You get towed by a winch. It's a long field so you gain some good height.
https://www.segelflugschule-luebeck.de/fliegen/segelfliegen/

[TURIN]

Have you thought of trying Pargliding or Hang-gliding?
As pure flying goes you cannot beat it. Soaring in Wave is often possible so you can still get the view above the clouds.
Its relatively inexpensive but can be frustrating due to the British weather. The wind limits during the early training periods especially so.
If you fancy powered flying, then the new batch of lightweight powered trikes mean you don't need a PPL.
There are lots of clubs around the country and Darley Moore in Derbyshire offers aerotowing too.
Whatever you choose, good luck. Enjoy.

Airways Airsports (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airways_Airsports)

[Less Hair]

The nice thing with gliders is, they are "real airplanes" and quite capable, even older ones.

[DeepestSouth]

Ooh yes - older gliders. If you are lucky your club will have some open cockpit gliders. One of my finest experiences - single seater (Grunau), good high winch launch, straight into a thermal and as I turned I could feel the temperature difference on my face. A very close fitting cockpit so almost no fuselage visible as I looked over the side! Bliss! I've never flown or in an open cockpit powered aircraft but I suspect it wouldn't beat that experience,

[gliderkev]

Thats great to hear.
Apart from the challenges and fun involved, once solo and in your own glider costs come down dramatically... on a soaring day or when ridge/wave is working, its the cost of a launch (£8-10 winch, £18-30 aerotow depending on club) then air time is effectively free (yes I know cost of ownership, but the more you do the less each flight costs)
it typically costs around £1000 per year to keep, insure, maintain a glider less if syndicated. Im fairly sure most powered aircraft are substantially more.
Going solo is going to require a bit of time but if a course of any type is offered which gives you concentrated flying - take it, it will shorten things substantially.
Portmoak has 2 ridges so long flights off the winch are almost the norm. progress should be quick - im off up there next week... fingers crossed for the weather!
Look at the achievements of Portmoak pilots over the last few years... it could be you very soon!
Good luck and enjoy!

[Jim59]

With over several hundred hours in light aircraft and several thousand hours in sailplanes I see them as very different activities. At the beginning there are some similarities in that one has to learn how to use the flying controls, take-off, fly around and land. But once one has progressed past the basics they diverge.

For many pilots gliding is all about soaring in an ever-changing atmosphere. Trying to fly further, faster, higher and for longer using only the energy freely available in the form of thermals, convergences, atmospheric waves and the wind blowing onto hills. Because it is all about reading the sky experience counts for a lot and one never stops learning. Some of the best soaring pilots are well past the first flush of youth because it is endlessly fascinating and never becomes routine. Not everybody wants to fly away from their home site and there are many pilots who enjoy aerobatics. Most gliders are semi-aerobatic allowing basic positive G manoeuvres, quite a few are fully aerobatic. Because gliding needs cooperation from other members to help you fly there is usually good club spirit where you get to know others. Most clubs have gliders for hire as well as those privately owned.

Learning to fly aeroplanes is equally interesting, but much more procedural. Once you have a licence and have taken your family and friends for a ride the question becomes what do I do with it now? Flying overseas is fun – but it takes you much more into paperwork and procedures for flight plans, customs declarations etc. To maintain interest one needs an aim. Some do more advanced training for instrument flying, or aerobatics. Others like to go touring. I’ve done those things but would have let my licence lapse if I did not use it for towing gliders. One of the more interesting aspects of that is retrieving gliders from some of the odd places they manage to land. Sometimes regular airfields, often places where light aircraft would not normally go – even farmer’s fields sometimes. Because one does not need assistance to get airborne power flying can be a more solitary activity – but it is less time consuming – and more predictable.

Neither activity is better than the other – they are simply very different. Sample both and try and see which best matches your longer term aims.

[Deltasierra010]

If you have limited cash go for gliding, but you will need time, several gliding clubs do weekly courses and I'm sure that 3 weeks training would get most students flying solo but don't do them together spread them over a couple of months. Wait until good weather maybe April before booking courses then you have a chance of flying most days, remember gliding clubs don't expect you to just turn up and fly, you are expected to help out with ground duties and maintenence. It is not like power flying where you turn up pay your cash and go home, one weekend day a month is the commitment you might be expected to do, maybe you will have time to fly, maybe not.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Mary,
Thinking back to my own very short gliding career, I recalled how one day during an aero-tow my instructor demonstrated 'low tow'. For the benefit of those who have never done any gliding, low tow is when the glider pilot flies behind the tug, but below the prop-wash of the towing aircraft. After we landed, my instructor was called away and I didn't get the opportunity to discuss low tow with him and find out more about it. Clearly, low tow must cause the tail of the towing aircraft to be pulled downwards and presumably the tug pilot must then trim hard nose-down. This raises two questions. First of all, why would a glider pilot use 'low-tow' in preference to a direct astern towing position? In other words, what is low-tow useful for? Secondly, when the glider casts off from a low tow, presumably the tug pilot has to be quick on the trimmer to prevent the tug from nosing down into a dive. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
Best regards,
BP.

[Jim59]

A low tow has several uses.
1. It is easier to fly and hence less tiring for the glider pilot so useful on long level retrieves.
2. The Australians use it in preference to the normal tow (above the slipstream).
3. If the tug is towing two gliders at the same time then one above and one below is appropriate.
4. When training glider pilots to aerotow so they know how it feels flying up and down through the slipstream if they get out of position inadvertently (uncomfortable!)

Disadvantages:
Tug pilot has difficulty seeing a glider in low tow in mirror.
If glider releases in low tow then the rings on the end of the rope may smash the glider's canopy so the glider must climb above slipstream to normal tow to release.

You are assuming the load from the rope to the tug is much more than it really is. For example a 500 kg glider at 70 kts with a glide angle of 40:1 has relatively low drag. The glide angle is usually known at lift divided by drag so in this case the drag is 500/40 = 12.5 kg in level flight. If it is climbing then one has to add the load for the effort to pull a body up an inclined plane - not something for here.

If the glider is in normal tow above the slipstream, with the tug in trim, and the glider moves down to low tow then as it does so the combination will tend to speed up slightly (less pull on the rope) and then stabilise when the glider stops descending. The stick load difference in the tug, bearing in mind that there is about 50 metres of rope to the glider, is negligible and there is no need to retrim.

[BDM]

Mary will correct me if I'm wrong but the main reason low tow is taught afaik is for cablerelease malfunctions.
If the gliderpilot is unable to release the tow cable he will signal this to the towplane and assume low tow position. This will enable the tow pilot to take the tow combination back to the airfield and land in the safest way possible.
This enables the glider to land first, at which point the tow pilot can cut or release the cable and land ahead or go around.

[Jim59]

BDM - not in the UK.

Why make it so complicated? Why not tow the glider to be within easy glide range and with the glider above the slip stream have the tug release the rope and let the glider land with the rope attached?

[3wheels]

Jim59. Correct. I have never heard of any other procedure in the UK.

[BDM]

Interesting! I was not aware the procedure was that different in the UK. In Belgium the low tow and combined landing are the official procedure when the glider cannot release.
Though defintiely more complicated, the benefit is not having to land your glider with 60m of rope attached adding to drag and increasing the risk of the rope getting caught on obstacles.
I fly at a field surrounded by high trees, so that makes sense to me.
Thanks jim59 and 3wheels for teachin me something I did not know about gliding in the UK!
So is low tow taught to students on your end just to train piloting skills in aerotow like 'boxing the wake' etc.?

[rich34glider]

Mary will correct me if I'm wrong but the main reason low tow is taught afaik is for cablerelease malfunctions.
If the gliderpilot is unable to release the tow cable he will signal this to the tug and assume low tow position. This will enable the tow pilot to take the tow combination back to the airfield and land in the safest way possible.
This enables the glider to land first, at which point the tow pilot can cut or release the cable and land ahead or go around.

In Australia we used to be taught this (landing on tow) during ab-initio but it was discontinued as the training risk was perceived to be more than the risk of it actually being needed - it was quite difficult to do! It's a lot easier for the tug to release from high tow ("abnormal tow" to us!) and land with the rope dangling.

I believe that the reason we use low-tow downunder (and almost nowhere else, surprisingly) is that we had a double (triple?) fatality after the glider got too high and neither tug nor glider could release .. the low tow position gives both parties more opportunity to recognise the glider getting out of station and release in time.

Interestingly enough, after 30 years of towing in both low & high tow I find it is generally easier to teach in low tow as getting out of station is visually much more obvious.

And to contradict another comment made, my experience here in Australia has been that it's better to go to high tow for a long retrieve as it doesn't require as much effort, and it's also more efficient.

[planesandthings]

Interesting discussions, I have taught both low tow and high tow in a number of countries and used them both for valid reasons. I'm aware of the incident Australia had, but countries across the world had tug 'upsets' and more recently there was a fatal accident low down in low tow which has caused a rethink at one of the bigger Australian clubs.

Having done some long level aerotow retrieves towards the top end of the speed range, the low tow seems to keep the slack out of the rope more easily. The idea of landing on tow is something most countries have consigned to history, with the reliability of wheelbrakes, the risk is far higher than it needs to be if you needed to do it, and a mistake low down would not leave much room for error. In many countries you have a weak link at the glider and tug end of the rope, so even if you couldn't land with the rope on the glider, you could do a controlled break of that weak link. Saying that, chances of not being able to release are very low if everything has been done properly beforehand. Just my two cents

Planesandthings

[FullWings]

Most clubs I’ve been to use weak links at both ends of the rope (about 20% stronger at the tug end), so add release mechanisms at each end and you’re pretty well covered. Exception being sites where the immediate land-out possibilities are bad enough that you’d rather overstress the structures than be exposed to a certain crash.

So is low tow taught to students on your end just to train piloting skills in aerotow like 'boxing the wake' etc.?
In the UK, yes, plus dual tows. As Jim says, standard practice for a failed release is for the tug to dump the glider with ample height for a circuit and landing. Tugs mostly land with the rope attached, so following that profile should see the rope clear of obstacles. Not that it matters that much as in the extremely unlikely event of it getting stuck it will break...

[cavuman1]

Soaring is one of the more fulfilling events of a lifetime! From learning to "fly the box" behind one's tow plane to befriending and mimicking airborne hawks who silently and selflessly show the locations of the best thermals, the experience is quite literally breathtaking. One becomes united with the sky; there is only the comforting sound of the relative wind and the enduring hope that the variometer (vertical speed indicator) reads in positive territory.

I started soaring in 1983, six years after I acquired my PPL-SEL. My then lady friend and I were picnicking at the Ross Barnett Reservoir in Jackson, Mississippi, when one of these flew overhead at 100 feet:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x384/blanik_l_13_b8ed1793c1799ecda4f19692034c6d06532bb54a.jpg
A Blanik L-13 all-metal glider with forward-swept wings. I was hooked! I asked my companion where the aircraft was based and she said: "Oh, Sugah! Theyah's a glidin' club jus' down the road from heah!" (She was a native of Moss Point, Mississippi.) Less than a half-hour later, I was aloft and loving it. The Blanik, though a strong and forgiving plane, had the lift-drag ratio of a greased anvil when compared to my next ride, A Grob 103a-Twin II:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x601/grob_103a_twin_ii_27ecb954b54788e966764542eb081fbf6ecc711d.j pg
This fiberglass beauty is a sports car of the air! One reclines in a nearly supine position; the streamlined canopy offers extraordinary views and the craft features a 36.5::1 glide ratio with a top speed of 160 m.p.h. Aerobatics are enjoyable, though one must get used to the extreme flexion of the high aspect ratio wings.

I belong to the largest club of its kind in the United States: Caesar Creek Soaring Club outside of Cincinnati, Ohio. A great group of people and a strong inventory of gliders. Caesar Creek Soaring Club (http://www.soarccsc.com/)

Should you or other of our PPRuNe brethren/sisteren be in my neck of the woods, let's go for it! (Steak and beer to follow...)

- Ed :ok: (http://www.soarccsc.com/)

[mary meagher]

Hello Broomstick Pilot, and the rest....I always understood that Australians did things backwards, like the low tow. Which calls for an interesting maneuver at the start of your takeoff; the glider would much rather follow the tug above the slipstream. To assume the low tow you have to dive through the wake. Fancy maneuvers low down have often led to bigger problems, so nearly all the tugging I ever did was UK regulation, above the wake, but RULE NUMBER ONE for the glider pilot was NEVER PULL UP THE TAIL OF THE TUG. Also, it is much easier to kill a tug pilot than a winch driver! Only once in my tugging career did a glider vanish on tow, I couldn't see him in the tug mirrors, so eventually figured he had pulled off gently, so I gently began a descent, and of course it was still there on the rope! he gave up just as it was getting interesting. Another time at Shenington, a K8 was hooked on for an airtow....that is, I assumed it had been hooked on..... Onlookers were greatly amused to watch me take off, glider left behind! I couldn't be quite sure that being a light weight K8 it wasn't still following....so towed the empty rope to 2,000' .
As far as dumping the rope, farmers tend to get irritated if you leave ropes lying around on the crops.

[rich34glider]

Hello Broomstick Pilot, and the rest....I always understood that Australians did things backwards, like the low tow. Which calls for an interesting maneuver at the start of your takeoff; the glider would much rather follow the tug above the slipstream. To assume the low tow you have to dive through the wake. Fancy maneuvers low down have often led to bigger problems, so nearly all the tugging I ever did was UK regulation, above the wake, but RULE NUMBER ONE for the glider pilot was NEVER PULL UP THE TAIL OF THE TUG. Also, it is much easier to kill a tug pilot than a winch driver! Only once in my tugging career did a glider vanish on tow, I couldn't see him in the tug mirrors, so eventually figured he had pulled off gently, so I gently began a descent, and of course it was still there on the rope! he gave up just as it was getting interesting. Another time at Shenington, a K8 was hooked on for an airtow....that is, I assumed it had been hooked on..... Onlookers were greatly amused to watch me take off, glider left behind! I couldn't be quite sure that being a light weight K8 it wasn't still following....so towed the empty rope to 2,000' .
As far as dumping the rope, farmers tend to get irritated if you leave ropes lying around on the crops.

Hi Mary, yep the transition during the initial climb is an extra thing to manage I guess, but in my years of instructing it's never caused big issues and in fact can be virtually avoided by holding off the nose up rotation until the glider is in the low tow position. I guess ground effect helps cancel out the rolling effect.

[BroomstickPilot]

Thanks Glider Pilots, one and all, for some EXTREMELY interesting responses to my question on low-tow. It's clearly a much bigger subject than I thought it was.

Broomstick.

[dsc810]

Low tow on aerotow retrieves as it is easier simply because unlike a normal aerotow the tug is not climbing but is flying level.
This means it easier to accidentally get too high on a high tow position on such a retrieve as the tug is in a different position wrt the horizon than you are used to.
(UK based)

[henwood]

Stumbled across this thread and it could have been written for me! I am also 35 and think I would love to learn to glide. I have been up once before at Dunstable Downs - my dad was given a birthday present of a gliding experience there and the instructor very kindly took me up for a quick flight at the very end of the day. I loved it!

I've been looking for a hobby to occupy my weekends that doesn't involve drinking and does involve me learning something new and I remembered how much I enjoyed my first flight.

I have booked a one day course at LGC for 1st Dec (earliest they could do) and am very much looking forward to it. That said, I am wondering what the consensus is on learning to glide at either LGC or Booker - both are similar distances from me (Booker a bit closer, but not much in it), but from my reading so far it sounds like they are quite different. Interested to hear the views of those who are familiar with both!

Secondly, assuming I do wish to pursue this after the one day course (likely I think), is it realistic to go solo within a year or so assuming I can only get up there probably one or two weekends each month?

Thanks in advance!

[rich34glider]

Stumbled across this thread and it could have been written for me! I am also 35 and think I would love to learn to glide. I have been up once before at Dunstable Downs - my dad was given a birthday present of a gliding experience there and the instructor very kindly took me up for a quick flight at the very end of the day. I loved it!

I've been looking for a hobby to occupy my weekends that doesn't involve drinking and does involve me learning something new and I remembered how much I enjoyed my first flight.

I have booked a one day course at LGC for 1st Dec (earliest they could do) and am very much looking forward to it. That said, I am wondering what the consensus is on learning to glide at either LGC or Booker - both are similar distances from me (Booker a bit closer, but not much in it), but from my reading so far it sounds like they are quite different. Interested to hear the views of those who are familiar with both!

Secondly, assuming I do wish to pursue this after the one day course (likely I think), is it realistic to go solo within a year or so assuming I can only get up there probably one or two weekends each month?

Thanks in advance!

Perfectly reasonable to get to solo standard in that time frame - probably much sooner if you commit your weekends for a while. The key to making good progress is to try and string a few weekends in decent weather together so that you don't regress too much between sessions.

Disclaimer: gliding often can & often does involve drinking .. only in the clubhouse afterwards though!

[Pegpilot]

Hi Henwood
Not that familiar with either Dunstable or Booker, but the key difference between the two is that Dunstable offers both winch and aerotow launch facilities whereas Booker is to my knowledge aerotow only (winch cables are not happy bed-fellows with busy power airfields). So Dunstable will be cheaper when you're learning the circuit bashing and landing, as you're not forking out for an aerotow launch every time. That said, students who learn exclusively on aerotow tend to solo after fewer launches than those who learn via winch, as you get more stick time early in your training and you don't have to learn and practice all the winch launch failure scenarios. And both sites have interesting airspace constraints, so if you can cope with that at those sites you will never be intimidated by complex airspace at other sites. As for drinking, wot rich said. You can drink and fly, but you have to do them in the right order....

[mary meagher]

Henwood, I began gliding at Booker in 1983 at the age of 50....and have since flown over 3,000 hours in this and that, in the US, UK, Russia, and France and Spain! Grand for sightseeing. Booker was very busy in those days, and helicopters don't seem to mix very well with winch cables! which is the cheapest way of throwing a glider into the air. Dunstable has always been a gliding site, they are wise, and friendly. My club at Shenington would also be worth a visit, though not so . busy in the winter season, we are active on weekends with decent weather.
Dont try flying in fog, rain, or wind over 15 mph! When you decide to learn to fly, you will make a very intense study of the weather. My longest flight in a Pegasus glider, no engine at all at all, was 8 hours and 53 minutes, in the UK, in a competition; the task, from Husbands Bosworth was 500 kilometers. Both Dunstable and Shenington are located on hills, which if the wind is from the NW or West, work fairly well, providing rising air even in winter. Beginning on longer days in March, we fly 7 days a week, weather permitting. In summer weather, the strongest lift is found under cumulus clouds, which form over towns or hot fields facing the sun. Do you have family? teenagers learn to fly very quickly!

[cats_five]

<snip>
Dont try flying in fog, rain, or wind over 15 mph!
<snip>

I agree about fog & rain, but wind over 15mph? Sites like PMK regularly fly in quite a bit more wind, how much more depending on the direction.

[astir 8]

Hello Henwood
London Gliding Club (Dunstable) and Booker are both excellent operations but others are available in your region. There are gliding clubs such as LGC, Booker and Lasham which are 7 day week operations, usually with paid staff. Their costs tend to be at the higher end of the range but they can also offer "turn up, fly, and leave" type services. They are businesses more than clubs.

The alternatives are weekend-only clubs most of which are run with volunteer crews. These tend to be much cheaper but greater time inputs from all members are expected. The ambience tends to be friendlier but you are pretty much expected to be there for the day as everyone has to muck in to make it work.

Such an operation is Oxford Gliding Club at Weston on the Green ( winch launching only). It's another 25 minutes up the M40 from Booker.

You seem to be talking about weekends only, so that kind of scene might suit, especially if finances are limited. Your choice, make some enquiries on websites etc re costs.

[henwood]

Perfectly reasonable to get to solo standard in that time frame - probably much sooner if you commit your weekends for a while. The key to making good progress is to try and string a few weekends in decent weather together so that you don't regress too much between sessions.

Disclaimer: gliding often can & often does involve drinking .. only in the clubhouse afterwards though!

Thanks for the advice - will try and string a few weekends together to begin with! Good to know that going solo in that time isn't unrealistic too. Thank you!

Thanks very much for your responses everyone. Sounds like Dunstable is not a bad spot to learn for a number of reasons. I'll start there and see how I go.

No kids of my own just yet, but that also means that finances aren't too much of an issue either, so every cloud!

[mary meagher]

Now, Henwood, do let us know how you get on at Dunstable! That is a club which must have the longest gliding history in the UK. They were gliding there before WWII. I am told they used to tow the gliders back to the launchpoint with a horse! One thing, any of you folks intending to fly gliders, DRESS VERY WARMLY. Any airfield is open to the wind.
Our German friends still have the tradition of gliding before power, and I think this had something to do with restrictions enforced by the Allies after WWI. The best gliders on our Planet are designed and built in Germany.....

[henwood]

Now, Henwood, do let us know how you get on at Dunstable!

I will do, thank you Mary!

[sealo0]

Thanks for the advice - will try and string a few weekends together to begin with! Good to know that going solo in that time isn't unrealistic too. Thank you!

Thanks very much for your responses everyone. Sounds like Dunstable is not a bad spot to learn for a number of reasons. I'll start there and see how I go.

No kids of my own just yet, but that also means that finances aren't too much of an issue either, so every cloud!

Hi Henwood

If you are online now 12.30 Sat 27th take a look at Flightradar24 and go just north of Worthing and you will see a whole string of gliders hill soaring which is not a bad why of learning.

Mike

[TelsBoy]

May have been mentioned elsewhere, but a summary of pros & cons of taking up gliding:-

Pros - Great fun, very "team-spirited", great way to do lots of cheap flying, definately makes you a better pilot, lots of variety compared to GA flying.
Cons - Very time consuming (not family-friendly if you have young kids), even more Wx-dependant than VFR GA (perfectly good flying Wx can be crap Wx for gliding), some odd characters around & politics/arguments in clubs, can be cliquey.

I did it for a while as something different to do, enjoyed it and it made me a much better pilot, but in the end it wasn't compatible with family life and I came across a few weirdos (including one downright nasty bugger) which I became wary of. Went back to powered flying with a very different perspective. If you have the time, I'd do it.

[planesandthings]

Cons - Very time consuming (not family-friendly if you have young kids), even more Wx-dependant than VFR GA (perfectly good flying Wx can be crap Wx for gliding), some odd characters around & politics/arguments in clubs, can be cliquey.

I'm sorry to hear of that bad experience, in every area of Aviation there are odd characters and it's a shame you found that part in Gliding. Politics you'll find in any club environment, it's a given.

Just to put some points aside, Gliding in itself is not more weather dependant than VFR GA, thermal soaring may be, but that's not a huge problem for someone learning the basics. In fact for basic training, quite often poorer weather during the winter (strong winds, cloud below 1500ft) is made advantage of, and hence the recent publications by the Airprox board pointing this fact out of the wrong assumption of gliding only being a fair weather sport.

The issue of time comes up a lot, I'm not sure when you left the sport but many clubs (especially the larger ones) operate booking systems now similar to schools so you only have to be around for a morning or an afternoon, much less of this "hang around all day for 2 flights business", sure it's not a precise 1-2 hour slot, but you're not paying anywhere near the amount, so there has to be a compromise.

Looking forwards to hearing more from the OP.

[Deltasierra010]

I can confirm that gliding is time consuming, its cheap flying and can only be done with volunteers giving up their time to run the club. The reality is you need to set aside one weekend day a month as a minimum, a lot will spend much more than that. So if your family commitments don't allow one weekend day a month, forget gliding, go and see you local power flying club and pay at least 10 times as much.
I have seen a good many differences of opinion, even stand up arguments but club politics are optional, go with the flow and do what the duty instructor wants, they are all different and you will have your own opinion who you prefer. Just like any club you need to get to know the members and the profile is the widest possible, from the penniless " gliding bum" who always helps everybody, to the airline pilot with a zillion hours and fast jet time as well, you cannot tell.
To be a glider pilot means you have to be a team player, thats the way it works, it need not be expensive, flying club aircraft is cheap, you can get passenger carrying rating or an instructor rating. Or you may join a syndicate in a private glider, maybe buy your own aircraft, it then becomes even more time consuming and can be very expensive as well, its your choice.

[FieldLander]

I hate to say 1 weekend day a month will not allow sensible progress to be made. However with effort fast progress is possible. I have recently watched someone at my local club start from scratch, achieve his first solo within 3 months and then complete bronze and cross country endorsement, fly a K8 100km land tour the vintage gliding museum at Lasham, take a low aerotow and fly 100km home (in the K8), complete a first 300km flight and then 420km of a 500km attempt. Ab-initio to 420km in 11 months. Granted it has been a superb summer, but still not bad for someone in full time employment.

[Deltasierra010]

One weekend day a month will not achieve satisfactory progress

Most ad initio pilots need one aerotow launch per year of their age to achieve solo standard, it's unlikely to be less and could be much more. Winch launching will be more launches especially it launch height is low or in poor weather, 2 or 3 flights a month with different instructors will make frustrating progress
The quickest way to get solo is pick a club that does week long courses with Winch and Aerotow run by a good instructor, a 40 yr old should get to solo within 2 weeks and I would recommend that any new pilot get at least some intensive training to avoid frustration.
Once solo has been achieved the mix of check flights and solo to build experience begins and if you are wise never ends, even experienced pilots with hundreds of hours should fly with a good instructor at least once a year, the learning never stops!.

[Glider Steve]

If you have a supportive family, the only advice
i can give is JUST DO IT.

I had zero interest in aviation until I had a trial glider flight in August. I’m now 30 winch launches in, plus 3 hours Microlight training towards NPPL.

I went gliding yesterday in a 20kt cross wind which was gusting up to 30kt at 1k feet and it was scary and exhilarating in equal measure.

I only managed one 30 minute flight, the remainder of the day was helping by retrieving and launching gliders and having a good old gas with some of the club members.

just get out there and if you love it, you’ll find the time.

Cheers
steve

[henwood]

Thanks everyone for all your thoughts and good advice.

I am starting with a one day course and will then probably be able to give it 1-2 weekends a month. Towards the middle of the year I may have time to do the five day course offered by the club. So hopefully my aim to go solo next year is not completely unrealistic.

[szd50]

Much like Jazzer83 I always wanted to fly but finances were an issue. Having been in the military I was fortunate to get a number of 'exciting' flights in all manner of fixed and rotary aircraft which made the urge stronger! I had numerous flights in PA28's and C42's etc but again costs precluded actually being able to afford regular lessons. Then of course what do you do when you're solo? Realistically I was not going to be able to afford a plane of my own, hangar it, maintain it and fuel it whilst getting signifcant use of it. Ultimately it'll be fun to take friends about for a bit till they get bored, then you're paying for all the flying. Of course syndicating is an option to make things affordable but that possibly presents its own problems. Are you flying to visit places or just flying to fly?

Cue Gliding.....

So I was in a position where I was fortunately within shouting distance of 5 gliding clubs. Having had a trial flight I was hooked and took advantage of a 30 day membership enabling me to fly at members rates.

Firstly I would say it takes a lot of commitment BUT if you're that interested it will be fun as you're indulging your passion. I generally try for a day a weekend. Most clubs rely on volunteers to function effectively, we have no paid members at my club! This enables costs to kept to a minimum.

So you'll pay an annual membership which is no more than a gym membership and you'll pay to fly. In most cases you'll pay a fee to launch and then pay per minute in the air. Instruction is free! I solo'd in a year and then migrated onto the club single seaters, I can then fly for £20 an hour! This year I achieved my silver duration which was a 5 hour plus flight. Of course its the norm for experienced hot ship pilots to exceed this regularly whilst task flying.

And I now own a 3rd share in an aircraft.......... yes a syndicate. Fortunately most gliding syndicates tend to work pretty well, members will grab an hour or two on a flying day or agree amongst themselves if one pilot is going to take the aircraft for a task. Fortunately this can be semi planned as there are specific forecasts which can give indicators as to what the 'day' will be like. A glider syndicate can be run very cheaply, ours will cost each of us circa £350 for the year not including launch fees. A winch launch can be had for a less £10 depending on the specific club.

If you really want to fly and want to challenge yourself try gliding, without a fan on the front to drag you around it really is you and nature!

[henwood]

Thanks szd - looking forward to my one day course on 1st Dec and will report back after that!

[Sam Rutherford]

I did my first solo at 16 in a glider, at the end of a one week course... If I can, then anyone can!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

My gliding experience consists of one short flight, at an "experience" evening for members of a power flying club. All good fun, but it pretty well lived up to the stereotype of an hour hanging around on the ground for each minute or two in the air.

What I wasn't expecting was that the cost - in terms of £ per minute in the air - was going to be pretty similar to power flying, rather than the several times cheaper that I had somehow expected after reading discussions like this one.

But, like I said, all good fun.

[planesandthings]

My gliding experience consists of one short flight, at an "experience" evening for members of a power flying club. All good fun, but it pretty well lived up to the stereotype of an hour hanging around on the ground for each minute or two in the air.

What I wasn't expecting was that the cost - in terms of £ per minute in the air - was going to be pretty similar to power flying, rather than the several times cheaper that I had somehow expected after reading discussions like this one.

But, like I said, all good fun.

Experience evenings are just group trial lessons, they are run for the benefit of the club to create a bit of extra revenue. Gliding is only cheap when you become a member!

[longer ron]

I did my first solo at 16 in a glider, at the end of a one week course... If I can, then anyone can!

Presumably while you were an Air Cadet (or similar) Sam ?
Realistically nowadays nobody is going to solo after a 1 week gliding course (unless they have fairly significant previous flying experience).The old style Air Cadet courses were to get you solo and be awarded the A+B gliding certificate as quickly as possible.Civilian gliding clubs train you to a more advanced standard including how to stay up there using thermal/ridge/wave lift (depending on gliding club location)
The 'How long to solo' question is impossible to answer as there are too many variables.
My own gliding 'career' started off (like Sam ?) with the Air Cadets,I then had a long gap and eventually joined a civvy club and became a reasonable cross country pilot/glider owner.
Yes the first few months of glider flying will involve a lot of time at the airfield but as you gain hours/experience then it is possible to buy your own glider /or a share in a glider (as a syndicate member).
On a good gliding day you can have a cheap winch launch and then go and fly all day,on a reasonable day in the uk a 6 hour (or more) flight is quite normal,My longest flight in my old logbook is 6.5 hours off a winch launch (in wiltshire) - a 320 kilometre cross country.

[Sam Rutherford]

It was certainly a long time ago, a Royal Navy Gliding Scholarship at Yeovilton…

And yes, from memory, a week of (very) local flights...

[szd50]

Mr Hogg perchance?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Experience evenings are just group trial lessons, they are run for the benefit of the club to create a bit of extra revenue. Gliding is only cheap when you become a member!
Well, they knew we were used to paying £3/minute, they probably thought we see £2.60 (or whatever it was) as cheap!

[gliderkev]

Well, they knew we were used to paying £3/minute, they probably thought we see £2.60 (or whatever it was) as cheap!
The way to make it really cheap is to go back after your winch launch trial lesson. The fee for the trial lesson includes a period of clubmembership, typically 2 or 3 months. If you go back, your winch launch is now circa 8 quid and you are more likely to get a longer flight if weather permits....tho, yes, you do get to push gliders around for the privilege.
if an aerotow is available, take it, the airtime goes up and chances of soaring increase and learning to fly it is fun!
give it a go!

[henwood]

My lesson on Saturday ended up being cancelled due to horrendous weather.... :(

[RatherBeFlying]

HW, You've just had a lesson in glider meteorology. You need to learn where you can find relevant forecasts - the club members can show you where to check.

Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground

[longer ron]

My lesson on Saturday ended up being cancelled due to horrendous weather.... :(
My partner started gliding a couple of months ago and managed to get some nice flights in - but the last few weeks she has not managed to get airborne at all due to all the rain we have been having.
Typical - last November was gorgeous up here LOL.

Hopefully the weather will co operate next time for you.

[EllieC]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post here. I was a solo pilot on gliders on my 14th birthday - 2 years ago. I recently [last week] soloed on powered aircraft. Gliding was a great foundation to powered flying, but as others have said, it's quite time-consuming. If you have children with a similar passion there are many scholarships and bursaries to assist them; they usually fly for cheaper rates too, so it could [maybe] become a family thing to do so not so many guilty dad thoughts. Remember with gliding that going solo is only the beginning. there is a lot of post solo training to do before you can go cross-country; I appreciate that is the same with all flying, but something to be considered in your financial calculations.

As someone else said, Portmoak is a great place to fly. If it's a choice of PPL/LAPL flying, or flying gliders at Portmoak you are going to enjoy whatever you decide to do

[Sam Rutherford]

Well done Ellie!

[longer ron]

Here is a fun video - at a Gliding Club somewhere in Germany (a launch with a winch cable eye view :))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_z97AXhnyM