First Joint Graduation at RAFC Cranwell [Archive]

Yellow Sun

6th Oct 2018, 08:12

Well I suppose they have to do something with the Old place! Every time I drive by expecting to see the circuit full of aircraft, I’m disappointed! Hard to think that the sky was once full of JPs and young men learning to fly!

I recall being Duty QFI at Cranwell one Friday afternoon. It was 1615 and we had an empty circuit but there were 32 aircraft airborne. Everyone was down by 1655, all visual recoveries. I wonder if that would happen these days?

YS

BEagle

6th Oct 2018, 09:36

newt wrote: Every time I drive by expecting to see the circuit full of aircraft, I’m disappointed! Hard to think that the sky was once full of JPs and young men learning to fly!

And at Leeming, Linton-on-Ouse and Syerston even in my first year at RAFC...:hmm:

What's at RAFC Cranwell these days? A few Ford Prefects and 3 Phenoms?

Door Slider

6th Oct 2018, 12:05

I thought it was to celebrate RAF100 not a new regular policy.

camelspyyder

6th Oct 2018, 13:44

Yes it was for RAF 100, but it's good practice for the future if recruit training is still moving back to Lincolnshire.

Dutystude

6th Oct 2018, 17:17

I recall being Duty QFI at Cranwell one Friday afternoon. It was 1615 and we had an empty circuit but there were 32 aircraft airborne. Everyone was down by 1655, all visual recoveries. I wonder if that would happen these days?

YS

Memory can play tricks as we are finding out this week in the Senate. So I am a little sceptical.

To have 32 JPs airborne, at the same time, with an average sortie length of 1 hour requires a launch rate of 32 aircraft per hour: one ac every 2 min.

We were certainly far busier back in the day but I don’t recall launching anything like that number unless perhaps for a College Grad - even then 32 ac would seem unlikely.

Stuff

6th Oct 2018, 21:52

hopefully not a precedent to close another Station.

Like the closure of RAF Halton that was announced in Nov 2017?

Yellow Sun

7th Oct 2018, 07:36

Memory can play tricks as we are finding out this week in the Senate. So I am a little sceptical.

To have 32 JPs airborne, at the same time, with an average sortie length of 1 hour requires a launch rate of 32 aircraft per hour: one ac every 2 min.

We were certainly far busier back in the day but I don’t recall launching anything like that number unless perhaps for a College Grad - even then 32 ac would seem unlikely.

I will concede that time dims the recollection, however it sticks in my mind that the number of aircraft airborne was exceptional. It was not only JPs, but CAW Dominies. Friday afternoon may have been exceptional for them as well! It was also the period when CFS were resident at Cranwell and that increased the numbers.

Whatever, it was more than a RAF station would probably achieve today on other than a special occasion. The most I recall on a graduation flypast was 22 aircraft including whip and spares.

YS

Pontius Navigator

7th Oct 2018, 07:51

I recall a story, tall may be, at Middleton St George, 16-ship Javelin formation running in met a 24-ship Hunter formation running the other way. Quick as a flash the sharper Hunter leader called "You break PORT, we'll break STARBOARD"

40 trumps 32.

Fareastdriver

7th Oct 2018, 09:05

I recall being Duty QFI at Cranwell one Friday afternoon. It was 1615 and we had an empty circuit but there were 32 aircraft airborne. Everyone was down by 1655, all visual recoveries. I wonder if that would happen these days?

It couldn't have happened at Oakington. At 1655 we were all in the bar waiting for the shutters to go up.

aw ditor

7th Oct 2018, 15:52

Newcy' Amber or Brown?

langleybaston

7th Oct 2018, 17:08

Pontius Navigator

7th Oct 2018, 19:28

LB, that is what the Javelin leader thought too and turned 'tother way.

langleybaston

7th Oct 2018, 20:04

Yep! Sense of humour failure combined with ignorance ..........powerful stuff.
Thank you.

Melchett01

7th Oct 2018, 23:20

Like the closure of RAF Halton that was announced in Nov 2017?

Yes, a friend mentioned that after my posting here. In my defence I’m now far more Joint than I am RAF and I don’t keep track of the ins and outs of what the RAF is doing, especially in the training environment. Hence my surprise when I saw the posts on social media about it, but hadn’t heard much comment elsewhere.

I’m assuming from the photos it was a former AAC Pilot with the PFB and medals in amongst the graduating officers. If correct and he has come across from the AAC, how does that work his wearing an RAF flying badge if he has passed an Army course of instruction?

Stitchbitch

8th Oct 2018, 06:00

CWO? Isn’t that a US Army term? Does the RAF run a knife and fork class for WOs similar to the Army, and if so, do they pass out as Sqn/Ldr (Major)?

Toadstool

8th Oct 2018, 08:25

CWO? Isn’t that a US Army term? Does the RAF run a knife and fork class for WOs similar to the Army, and if so, do they pass out as Sqn/Ldr (Major)?

There is the Commisioned Warrant Officer Course and they pass out as a Flt Lt.

ancientaviator62

8th Oct 2018, 11:11

In my day as a Master Aircrew I did the full course and a bit . Started at Henlow then after a month 'they' decided to send a guinea pig flight to Cranwell to join the Student Officers Course. So off I went. Passed out as a F/O on a course awash with instant F/L.

lsh

8th Oct 2018, 11:23

I notice that we had a joint graduation at Cranwell during the week with Recruits, CWO and Officer Cadets all graduating from the same parade.

Good to see a full parade square again, but hopefully not a precedent to close another Station.

It would be good if they could continue with this; I am sure it is beneficial to all to "start out" together.

lsh

Treble one

8th Oct 2018, 11:25

I believe WO's in the Army are comissioned as Captains (not Majors).

Stitchbitch

8th Oct 2018, 12:15

I believe WO's in the Army are comissioned as Captains (not Majors).

I believe you’re right, thank you.

gr4techie

8th Oct 2018, 13:13

newt wrote:

And at Leeming, Linton-on-Ouse and Syerston even in my first year at RAFC...:hmm:

What's at RAFC Cranwell these days? A few Ford Prefects and 3 Phenoms?

I remember Finningley being very busy too

muppetofthenorth

8th Oct 2018, 14:10

It would be good if they could continue with this; I am sure it is beneficial to all to "start out" together.

lsh

Do the timings work out for that, though? Halton kicks out every few weeks (there's an intake I think once every 3 weeks at present?), but Cranwell is only once every 9 (?) at the moment, iirc.

Toadstool

8th Oct 2018, 15:09

newt wrote:

And at Leeming, Linton-on-Ouse and Syerston even in my first year at RAFC...:hmm:

What's at RAFC Cranwell these days? A few Ford Prefects and 3 Phenoms?

News flash. The RAF of today is very different to the RAF of yesteryear. The world has changed and numerous defence reviews and cost cutting has drastically reduced the size of the RAF. You may have seen this in the news. That said, since I've been in the RAF, it has been involved in constant operations, much of which has been the delivery of kinetic effects. Many of the aircrew that I have served with have flown over territory with the constant threat of enemy fire or are now flying in areas where the SAM threat is real. Look at the news today regarding the RAF's role in Op shader.

By all means lament the state of the RAF today and the paucity of assets. In fact, perhaps we need a nostalgia thread "the RAF is rubbish today and was better when I was in because...." but the RAF of today is remarkably different and much busier operationally than the RAF from the late 70s and 80s.

beardy

8th Oct 2018, 15:43

Bravo Toadstool!

So much on here should be under Nostalgia.

The Nip

8th Oct 2018, 16:05

Do the timings work out for that, though? Halton kicks out every few weeks (there's an intake I think once every 3 weeks at present?), but Cranwell is only once every 9 (?) at the moment, iirc.

There is a school of thought that certain aspects of basic training, drill, GSK, IFPT, should be combined. Then once this is completed, the two rank streams separate to carry on with their own training. Pass out parades would need to be synchronized.

muppetofthenorth

8th Oct 2018, 18:19

There is a school of thought that certain aspects of basic training, drill, GSK, IFPT, should be combined. Then once this is completed, the two rank streams separate to carry on with their own training. Pass out parades would need to be synchronized.

Ah, interesting. Thanks.

BEagle

8th Oct 2018, 18:20

Toadstool

8th Oct 2018, 19:19

Notwithstanding your rant, Toadstool, what aircraft actually are there at RAFC these days?

Incidentally, you probably have no idea about the potential 'kinetic effects' many of us were facing not that long ago - but we don't find the need to brag about it, generally...

Oh, I probably do. Given the number of posts about your career on this forum, it seems that you're not too shy about bragging, so come on, do tell.

BEagle

8th Oct 2018, 19:32

Toadstool, thank you for your post, the contents of which are noted...and will be ignored.

Bill Macgillivray

8th Oct 2018, 19:38

Dutystude

9th Oct 2018, 16:56

Well said toadstool

Doctor Cruces

9th Oct 2018, 21:02

newt wrote:

And at Leeming, Linton-on-Ouse and Syerston even in my first year at RAFC...:hmm:

What's at RAFC Cranwell these days? A few Ford Prefects and 3 Phenoms?
I remember we had so many aircraft at Leeming there was not room on the ASP for all of them and one of the supernumary officers in Ops had to devise a phased flying plan. First wave towed out and get in the air, second wave ditto. First wave recover whilst second in the air and so on til bed time when they were put to bed in the same order they were brought out. IIRC we had Jetstreams, JPs, Bulldogs and Chipmunks and RLGs at Dishforth and Topcliffe where RNEFTS decamped every day.
.

newt

10th Oct 2018, 06:59

Maybe we need a forum just for the children on here! Talk about Teddy Bears out of the cot! We all know the RAF is doing a splendid job operationally! And long may that continue! You may have a problem with us Old Duffers Toadstool, but you cannot deny we developed and practiced many of the tactics used even today! We fully support the RAF in its hundredth year and should be allowed a bit of nostalgia without any backlash from the younger generation!

Now retired to the bunker with my tin hat on and a nice glass of beer!

BEagle

10th Oct 2018, 07:32

Well said toadstool newt !

I'll even forgive you for some of the Bucc* simulator debriefs you gave me. Not that I didn't deserve them though.

*Youngsters may need to consult Google to find out what a 'Bucc' was.....:\

Bob Viking

10th Oct 2018, 08:08

I think I speak for everyone when I say we all have the utmost respect for those that came before us. We understand your contributions and I, for one, would never try to throw spears at the Cold War generation. We all play the hand we’ve been dealt.

I don’t believe I have ever made a meaningful contribution to the defence of my nation in my 19+ years and I’m happy to take sh1t for it. It wasn’t of my choosing but as I said, you play the hand you’ve been dealt.

However, you should not consider yourselves immune from criticism. Simply stating you are ignoring someone is the same as putting your fingers in your ears and loudly shouting “la la la la la”. Not very grown up or constructive.

Danny42C is probably the most respected man on this forum and he will gladly admit when he is wrong and accept that his Air Force was a very different beast to my Air Force.

If Danny can do it, then maybe others could try a little harder?

It doesn’t matter who you are. You have to earn respect.

Obviously I shall now don my own tin hat and standby for incoming.

BV

NutLoose

10th Oct 2018, 09:07

Did they stay on for the fireworks?

https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/controlled-explosion-carried-out-a17-2091484

Training Risky

11th Oct 2018, 11:53

I’m assuming from the photos it was a former AAC Pilot with the PFB and medals in amongst the graduating officers. If correct and he has come across from the AAC, how does that work his wearing an RAF flying badge if he has passed an Army course of instruction?

Hey Melch. Many of the Army and Navy pilots that I have known to come over to the RAF have often chosen to wear the RAF flying badge after they have swapped uniforms. There is something in QRs about 'if qualified for a different Service flying badge, then the wearer can elect to wear the relevant badge to his current duties...' or something like that. It's been a while since I was in!

Oh, and implying that the current fleet of this sorely-depleted RAF of about 3 front-line sqns is busier, more operationally-focused and delivering more kinetic effect than ever is both disingenuous and insulting to the Op BANNER/REFORGER/TELIC/HERRICK generation. Youngsters eh?!

BVRAAM

11th Oct 2018, 12:45

I don’t believe I have ever made a meaningful contribution to the defence of my nation in my 19+ years

I wholeheartedly disagree. Everybody who serves makes a meaningful contribution to the defence of this nation; it's all tiny pieces that fit in to a very big puzzle. Be proud of your achievements, Sir.

newt

11th Oct 2018, 14:46

Well said BVRAAM!

Toadstool

11th Oct 2018, 14:53

Oh, and implying that the current fleet of this sorely-depleted RAF of about 3 front-line sqns is busier, more operationally-focused and delivering more kinetic effect than ever is both disingenuous and insulting to the Op BANNER/REFORGER/TELIC/HERRICK generation. Youngsters eh?!

Although I mentioned Op SHADER, I and others most certainly have been around for all the above. Thanks though, its nice to be called a youngster at 50 years old having served 3 decades and more. I apologise if I came across disrespectful to those "old duffers". I have the utmost respect. Without you, we wouldn't be where we are now. Fly safe everyone.

Pontius Navigator

11th Oct 2018, 19:29

Toadstool,

I think you are correct and well said! We do get a bit nostalgic ( mid-50's to 80's in my case) so give us a bit of lee-way but, please keep up the great work and here's to the next 100 years!! Still the best Air Force by quite a bit!!

Bill
Can I just say that had we had Pprune 50 years ago it would have been no different. The difference though is we would have been far more informed on the historical detail. Then we had to rely on Air Clues.

Bill Macgillivray

11th Oct 2018, 20:14

PN

We had "P/O Prune" years ago in Air Clues as I remember!! Bang up to date with everything (well, almost!). Also around before my time (mid 50's) and keeping everyone in the picture (or so my elder brother told me!).
Maybe I'll just go and have another malt!!!
Still think we have the best Air Force!

Bill

Lima Juliet

13th Oct 2018, 19:00

I think this may be the end of Trenchard’s establishments for “giving us the technological edge; a cadet college at Cranwell to produce the future leaders; a staff college at Andover to give those leaders the finishing touches and an apprentice scheme to train the mechanics”.

With a 10 week passing out cycle for ORs and a 24 week cycle for officers then very few parades will coincide. Personally, I think the loss of Halton for the ORs that generates Trenchard’s much wanted “Air Force Spirit” in a different way to that at Cranwell for the officers, is a mistake. Keeping the 2 seperate is a good thing for so many reasons for as long as we have a hierarchical rank structure - if we go down the civvy route where everyone is on first name terms where everyone is paid an individually negotiated rate then great; but we are not.

Having watched recruits make mistakes during recruit training amongst their peers at both places, then there should be a distinct air-gap between the two in my humble opinion. Also, the constant drive to put everyone up in a Holiday Inn and feed them in a Happy Eater further erodes the pride - look at Daedalus, roughly a tenth the age of York House and already showing it. You only need to look at what has been done at Bicester, Bentley Priory and Woolwich to see how our old infrastructure can be brought up to date but retain its character The RAF is a unique brand, a brand that people aspire to, and we should protect certain ethos, artefacts and methods as it is what makes us what we are and what others aspire to be.

Tankertrashnav

14th Oct 2018, 17:27

What is kinetic effect :confused:

Dutystude

14th Oct 2018, 18:09

What is kinetic effect :confused:

We don’t say bombing anymore. Too upsetting.

Tedderboy

14th Oct 2018, 21:28

With a 10 week passing out cycle for ORs and a 24 week cycle for officers then very few parades will coincide.

While the length of courses may differ there is actually an IOT Graduation Parade approx every 10 weeks due to the 8 week terms and 2 week gap between. I understand that one of the aspirations under Project Portal is for an element of joint training (e.g. joint militarisation phase) in addition to joint graduations becoming the norm.

.

Also, the constant drive to put everyone up in a Holiday Inn and feed them in a Happy Eater further erodes the pride - look at Daedalus, roughly a tenth the age of York House and already showing it. You only need to look at what has been done at Bicester, Bentley Priory and Woolwich to see how our old infrastructure can be brought up to date but retain its character The RAF is a unique brand, a brand that people aspire to, and we should protect certain ethos, artefacts and methods as it is what makes us what we are and what others aspire to be.

I also understand that one of the options being looked at when RTS does eventually come to Cranwell is for Daedalus to be a Joint Phase 1 Training Mess.

Lima Juliet

14th Oct 2018, 22:29

@tedderboy

8 week terms and 2 week gap between

So with my maths head on that is 8wks (Term 1) 2 wks off, 8wks (Term 2) 2 wks off and then 8 wks (Term3) - total 28 weeks. 10s into 28 don’t go???

As for everyone into Daedalus:

1. Putting Recruits and Officer Cadets in the same building is a very bad idea.
2. Daedauls is nasty - no soul and it is already falling to bits with mouldy ceilings and bathrooms.
3. Where will everyone else stay? YHOM is normally full?

Dutystude

15th Oct 2018, 06:45

While the length of courses may differ there is actually an IOT Graduation Parade approx every 10 weeks due to the 8 week terms and 2 week gap between. I understand that one of the aspirations under Project Portal is for an element of joint training (e.g. joint militarisation phase) in addition to joint graduations becoming the norm.

I also understand that one of the options being looked at when RTS does eventually come to Cranwell is for Daedalus to be a Joint Phase 1 Training Mess.

Please, tell me that’s a wind-up.

Tedderboy

15th Oct 2018, 11:08

@tedderboy

So with my maths head on that is 8wks (Term 1) 2 wks off, 8wks (Term 2) 2 wks off and then 8 wks (Term3) - total 28 weeks. 10s into 28 don’t go???

You forgot the 2 weeks gap between Term 3 ending and Term 1 starting!! The Grad itself is at the end of week 8, then 2 weeks until the new IOT starts and the cycle starts again.

Tedderboy

15th Oct 2018, 11:37

As an aside following the original review of IOT that did resulted in the 30 week course way back in the mid noughties a suggestion was raised about the possibility of combining NCA and IOT so that rather than do Halton and a separate course at Cranwell the NCA cadre would do the first 20 weeks of IOT before graduating and the IOT cadre would do the final 10 week 'commissioning' term. This didn't survive first contact with the seniors with a major concern being 'what if the NCOs perform better than the Officers'.

There are a number of options for the new IOT/RTS that have been floated around the bazaars - mostly to do with modularising the course in order to streamline training. One of the driving forces behind the modularisation being the 'efficiency' of airmen who go for a commission having to undergo the militarisation phase or should they join later in the course? There is currently a trial of former Flt Sgts joining straight into Term 2 and of course former WOs only do 2 weeks at the end of Term 3 albeit on their own bespoke course.

With regards to new entrant airmen and officers being combined I suppose they could do the same militarisation syllabus on the same real estate but as separate flights. Furthermore, I believe the Daedalus Mess proposal to be one of many covering left and right of arc as it sits on the North side of Cranwell and the intention, ever since the idea was muted in the early noughties, is for the North Airfield site to developed and cost will undoubtedly be a factor to make best use of what is already there.