Calling Tonka aircrew and squippers - PEC question

[ScottBouch]

Hi all,

Can anyone confirm the designation of a version of the Mk12 PEC (Tornado) with a regular NATO socket for helmet comms instead of the LEMO connector?

I've so far only found documented evidence from 1975 and 1983 of the PECs with LEMO connectors, but a friend has two Tornado PEC's with NATO connectors.

See here for what I've found so far:
http://www.scottbouch.com/aircrew-uk-personal-equipment-connector-mask-mk12.htm

Why would you fly with NATO connector on the PEC and Helmet over a LEMO? Also, what is the PEC's Mk designation?

Many thanks, Scott

[H Peacock]

I had a back seat rides in a GR1 back in the 90s and I'm sure the PEC had the standard NATO jack. The Lemo was introduced on Harrier/Tornado later due to the need for extra connector pins with NVG power and I believe auto-detach.

I've seen versions with both 8-pin and 12-pin Lemo 2B sockets.

[ScottBouch]

Thanks H Peacock,

I have seen the three versions of LEMO, but as you say, the three aircraft - it's tempting to correlate them, but knowing the logic of the air force, I doubt it's that straightforward!

The documents I found from 1975 and 1983 in the link shown both show a type of LEMO connector, but not which one. I then have it reported by two people that standard NATO connectors have been in use too.

I'd love to unpick the illogical logic of this, but I'm going to need dome help!

It's going to be a matter of piecing together eras / roles / equipment needs etc.. to decipher which interfaces are used for what, and were used when!

With the power supplied for NVG's, did ANR headsets ever get supplied through the LEMO connectors too? (did Tornado crews use ANR headsets in the helmets? I've seen them on Jaguar with the external battery pack)

And then there's Jaguar and Harrier, but let's not go there for now!

Cheers, Scott

[Timelord]

During my time on the GR1 and later association with the GR 4 sim (93-present) I only ever saw the multi pin connector to the helmet, and a right pain it was too once the helpful red dots had worn off!

[Stitchbitch]

Time has dulled things a little here but...Yes, I recall seeing one at Boscombe, but that could have been a pre production one for U.K. MRCA testing. Op leads were 8 pin Lemo, then 12 pin Lemo was introduced which included extra pins for NVG auto sep.

ANR was battery powered, for bagger Sea King, BBMF, SHAR, Hawk (no one claims to have seen this one) and Tucano. Later introduced on Gr7. Hawk T2 uses a later set up.

[Just This Once...]

Only ever remember the multi-pin connector but in the test world we did have an adapter to convert a multi-pin helmet connection to a standard jack to ease the move from one type to another. Then someone decided the adapter was only cleared for ground use only... so more money had to be spent.

I have one of my old (circa '94) Alpha helmets here in my study, complete with the multi-pin plug.

[Tashengurt]

Any NATO jackplug would be on developmental kit only I'd think.
The early F3 kit had a grey helmet pigtails with a half moon type connector. They were very susceptible to breaking when helmets were rested on them. Particularly Mk3c's. Also easily mashed by ham fisted aircrew.
The Lemo then came along. Much more robust.

[ScottBouch]

Hi all,

I'd be interested to learn about this eatly "half moon" connector. I did once have a Mk3C helmet with a grey pigtail lead and small silver LEMO plug (about half the length of modern ones, with no flexible strain relief). It had 50% male and 50% female contacts, very fine pins, is this what you are referring to?

Adaptors - I have a LEMO to NATO adaptor as described. It's interesting to hear it's cleared for ground use only as I had been led to believe it was for the NBC intercom box, which has NATO sockets and is only used on the ground. So these two thoughts do tie up.

Cheers, Scott

[Tashengurt]

That does sound like the lead I described. I only ever saw the adaptors used in the NBC role. Did a LOT of that.

[ScottBouch]

Hi all,

This is the adaptor I have, and believe it to be intended for AR5, NBC intercom box use. Can anyone confirm this please?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/515x386/100_5868_8f87c49293b1f7cdc04e165c40458dba70df5a70.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/515x386/100_5867_9e460a5f768525192ac5a4c2b224878b9aaa85bc.jpg

The LEMO pin layout, is this the same as current Tornado?

I also have a helmet pigtail lead with a corresponding LEMO connector (in silver) for a MK4 helmet I'm one day going to rebuild.

Be nice to try and figure out when they went from silver to black.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/630x579/20180927_103222_e4b58dd38cc643062728d43ba08f61a1a741daf8.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/832x468/20180927_103236_e51cfa60a626002591f7ed05c809f4ecaf7227a3.jpg


Cheers,

[Tashengurt]

That is indeed the NBC adaptor. I'm afraid I couldn't give you a definitive date for the colour change but I'd say roughly 1990?

[ScottBouch]

Hi Tashengurt,

Thank you for that! Much appreciated! After years in my collection, it was only this week I learnt it was possibly for NBC, and you have confirmed this nicely.

I had always assumed it was to allow Tornado crew to fly other types without changing their helmets, clearly this was wrong, especially with the adaptor not being cleared for flight!

Cheers, Scott

[glad rag]

It'a amazing how those LEMO connectors get/got specified by some desk jockey for the most inappropriate installs.

Robust they are not, and a PIA to swap out once bent or crushed.

Still they look good and racy........

[ScottBouch]

Robust they are not, and a PIA to swap out once bent or crushed.

Yes, in a previous life we used LEMO connectors in scientific instruments, but a smaller diameter version to these ones. I recall the fiddly job of soldering numerous very fine multi-core wires to the contacts...

But they do look the business!

[ScottBouch]

Well would you believe it - Just had a quick look in the garage, and found an unissued Mk2 / Mk3 helmet pigtail with the older smaller LEMO connector!

14 tiny contacts, 7 male, 7 female.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/733x441/mk2_3_lemo_01_20b37e8f9d441efad23050beb35e52783a0cdf4f.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1143x1056/mk2_3_lemo_02_ab3a0e3cedd1b4f14d9967fe5b391a194560b665.jpg

I guess this is the type that was susceptible to damage?

I could actually now configure both a Mk3 and a Mk4 helmet to suit Tornado for display.

Now, it's tempting to make an assumption that the Mk12 PEC's shown in the diagrams here (http://www.scottbouch.com/aircrew-uk-personal-equipment-connector-mask-mk12.htm) would suit this older smaller connector, as they appear to have smaller connectors on their cables. Those images are from 1975 and 1983 (the 1983 one could always be unrepresentative of what's actually in service though). I wonder what year the upgrade was made to the later bigger LEMO connector?

Cheers, Scott.

[LOMCEVAK]

At Boscombe Down we had Tornado PECs with standard UK NATO sockets so that we could use the same helmet in multiple aircraft types. Originally we had adaptors from LEMO but then the PECs were eventually reconfigured (I cannot remember when). I recall that Warton also had NATO sockets for their Tornados even before we did.

[Tashengurt]

Just remembered, the nato- lemo adapter was also needed for the helmet/ mask test box.

[ScottBouch]

Thanks LOMCEVAK, so some uses for NATO socket depending on the who was operating the aircraft I guess...

Tashengurt - do you mean the comprehensive tester with a "split head" on top? I recently acquired one of these, but need to find the manual!

Now, I've today found this rather bare PEC... I'm going to ask some questions, if anyone can confirm for me, I'd really appreciate it!

It's dated 1990, but the layout of where the hoses / bushes are on the shoe is quite different to the older Mk12's shown here (http://www.scottbouch.com/aircrew-uk-personal-equipment-connector-mask-mk12.htm) so I assume this is a different Mk designation, and possibly not Tornado? Or maybe the Tornado PEC shoe plate evolved over time, or was different for different roles?

Is it Tornado?
Is it for AR-5 NBC? (The thin hose is black, usually an indicator of NBC rather than green, and the push-fitting on the end suits my AR-5)
Is it missing it's main air hose? (Ie: did the Tornado have a standard NBC setup like other aircraft with one big hose for air, the smaller for oxygen?)

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/464x460/pec3_0e732635910d0c19ae8f0d99f4ddfe763c6dcb65.jpg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/585x1040/pec1_8d3d6e0c487b8a56bd182ef5c2d5b5ba1fd95698.jpg


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/734x955/pec2_7de25a6987750e1444859dfe13817b6cbbcbd173.jpg

Cheers, Scott.

[Tashengurt]

Scott, stretching my memory now but I'd say that's a Tonka AR5 PEC.
The tester I'm referring to is the little hand held black box with a rocker switch that would test the comms with simple go/ no go circuit and a couple of less.
The screaming skull gave a more comprehensive result.

[Stitchbitch]

I think the Tornado AR5 had two supplies from the respirator, the main oxygen pipe (whistling handbag) and the smaller diameter one for demisting the visor/in aircraft use(?). If I recall we used the non NBC ones daily and the NBC ones were for taceval fun only. The spare Lemo leads for Mk4 helmets remained silver into the 2000s, although all night capable leads were black from the early 90s. The red ‘connection dot’ on the male/female ends were over painted white tintalite ink to make them easier to see at night, although bent pins were quite easy to fix once you developed the knack (quite often on Tornado, never needed to fix one on Harrier)..

[Fishtailed]

I recall that Warton also had NATO sockets for their Tornados even before we did.
I managed to blag a ride with the RAF in a F3 at Leeming when Warton couldn't get me the Panavia clearance for a sandbag, but Mick in flying clothing kitted me up with everything I needed to ensure a hastle free day. All went well untill in the HAS and strapped in, ground crew passed me my helmet and tried to connect!! Unstrap, back to the hut and have a helmet measured and fitted, pilot drumming his fingers on the coming! Great flight though, thanks to Phil Askew and 23 Squadron.

[tucumseh]

ANR was battery powered, for bagger Sea King

Sea King AEW Mk2 was the first to get an integrated ANR. It was powered by 3 x 9V batteries, in a separate box stowed in a pocket, with a rotary on/off switch. The original design used a LEMO, specifically the one being mooted for Apache at the time. But the RN insisted on retaining the standard NATO jack, the reason being migration to other RN helicopters. (Part of the same decision was they didn't want in-ear devices). This didn't make sense because the aircrew wouldn't be able to use the helmet in other aircraft anyway, as ANR is unique to the Mark (e.g. in damaging noise terms, SK2 was different to SK4, and completely different to Lynx. If you ever had to go next door and fly in a Mk6, that's why your comms sounded crap). Linked to this, provision was made for all crew to have a made-to-measure helmet. But these decisions are made on high and prevailed. This meant a separate power lead/connector for ANR, which in turn meant the assembly failed emergency egress pull-weight, requiring staggered cable lengths on the comms/power bifurcation, so one connector disconnected before the other. The connectors look the same, but they are of different diameters.

A couple of years before ASaC Mk7 entered service, the Digital ANR programme passed its final lab trials and full development/production was approved. ISD was to be a year later, in early 2002 - it was required to meet the 'new' legal limit of 75dB(A), whereas analog was 85dB(A). (72/83 achieved, respectively). In the event, the legislation was delayed by many years, and I suspect, although can't confirm, the DANR programme was shut down. I understand they later changed their mind on in-ear kit.

AEW Mk7 (later ASaC) was powered from the new aircraft secure intercom overlay. The only real difference was that, being integrated with a TEMPEST system, the helmet was no longer just a piece of AEA, but a comms system LRU as it now sat within the TEMPEST boundary. In practice, when doing the test a dummy must be placed in each seat with a helmet. (Now now, RAF). The ASaC aircraft modifications - by far the most expensive part - were essentially Nil Cost, as Westland had been so efficient elsewhere in the programme they handed back excess profit, but the NATO jack was retained.

[ScottBouch]

Scott, stretching my memory now but I'd say that's a Tonka AR5 PEC.
The tester I'm referring to is the little hand held black box with a rocker switch that would test the comms with simple go/ no go circuit and a couple of less.
The screaming skull gave a more comprehensive result.

Haha, 'Screaming Scull'! I like that! I've had mine plugged in and making tones (it's a bit old and dusty, but appears to work), but really could do with finding the manual for it to figure out how to perform a headset test properly. I'll photograph it and start a new topic. I've only ever used the NBC intercom box as a headset tester, which it works fine for checking for crackles.

Thanks for the gen on the PEC, it's a shame it's missing it's bigger diameter hose, doubtful I'll find one for it.

Cheers, Scott