Brexit and Engineers [Archive]

Tom Sawyer

25th Sep 2018, 22:00

Going on the information issued by the Government recently, I'm going to have to look into it I think. I work overseas (outside of Europe) for a company that has EASA 145 & 147 approval so currently recognises my licence and any training I do through them can go my licence. However, come March next year it maybe the case that it will be changed to a UK CAA B1 of which it is unclear if my company will even recognise. It will all come down to whether they generalise it as a ICAO standard licence but haven't seen any info from QA on it as yet.

The other questions is, if I did convert to another EASA NAA licence, do I effectively surrender my UK licence and any entitlement to a future UK CAA licence post March?

So, has anyone been down this path and any recommendations as to which NAA would be the best? It used to be the case that the UK CAA EASA AML was the one to have!

The CAA micro site is https://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/licensed-engineers/ for those that do not subscribe to Skywise.

Ultranomad

25th Sep 2018, 22:32

For everyone's information, DfT has just published a detailed clarification (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/aviation-safety-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/aviation-safety-if-theres-no-brexit-deal) of possible outcomes. As to the best NAA, given the EASA-wide standardisation of regulations, it's effectively down to which one is the easiest to deal with. I'd bet on smaller countries.

bluesafari

26th Sep 2018, 12:50

I don't think we should panic, but we should be investigating all our options and be prepared. I have just looked out my CAA license cover ready for the replacement license which be issued (I believe).to cover all those who are resident or employed in the U.K. whose EASA license was issued by the CAA. The CAA are not noted for their alacrity in reacting to changing circumstances. Many people, who meet the requirements, have already licenses issued by the state in which they are working. But I believe that by March next year something will be in place, the U.K. aviation industry is not going to stop. I haven't worked in Europe for a number of years so I am not sure if going to another EASA state for a license will need some kind of residency or employer requirement, but I suspect that it might. Along with many engineers I have a foreign (non EASA) license, and shortly may have another. Will be interesting if they will be accepted by EASA land airworthiness authorities for validation

sankara

28th Sep 2018, 14:16

I want to write easa part 66 module exam, which is best training center uae ,please guide me

Rigga

1st Oct 2018, 17:11

The CAA is at least doing something in preparation for Brexit: On LinkdIn there are adverts for Part 21 Design & Production Surveyors to form a new section for the UK - I assume BCAR solutions for UK designers, manufacturers and test houses...and there are quite a few of those to convert!
I would assume that the CAA's initial response, once the future is confirmed, would be to send all UK LAE's a letter explaining what to do next - and attempt to avoid a panic driven mass conversion crisis (again).

glad rag

1st Oct 2018, 22:41

I want to write easa part 66 module exam, which is best training center uae ,please guide me

Quite stunning Irony.

Alber Ratman

2nd Oct 2018, 22:08

Rigga

3rd Oct 2018, 18:08

In the last change of Licences JAR66-Part66, there was a cross-over period of five years - the longest life of a Licence - to prevent people panicking and clogging up the renewal/replacement system....and it generally worked.

So, using that example, with a two year period the CAA is likely to get a bit bunged up IF the EASA folk don't reciprocate with a like-minded deal. (incidentally, it will be political pressure, not EASA pressure, that denies a reasonable deal in aviation). We all hope it won't come to that and a reasonable deal will emerge.

Don't forget that the writing on the website is about the WORST outcome.

I waited until my JAR license expired to renew/replace it the the new 'standard'. Now, luckily, all my Types are all lapsed so I don't NEED my licence like most guys that can see this...I can wait.

bvcu

4th Oct 2018, 15:19

can't do anything at present without giving up your CAA licence . You can only hold EASA from one country.

Rigga

4th Oct 2018, 19:33

can't do anything at present without giving up your CAA licence . You can only hold EASA from one country.

Absolutely correct! and the reason it is not really productive to do anything before there is a decision - so why start worrying now...

NutLoose

4th Oct 2018, 21:25

I'm betting it will be take a felt tip cross out EASA and add CAA...carry on.

TURIN

4th Oct 2018, 21:44

Nutloose. have you read the document?

NutLoose

4th Oct 2018, 21:57

I have but I also remember the changes we went through getting the 66 sorted, mine only finally got corrected about a year ago.

ivor toolbox

20th Oct 2018, 19:56

I have but I also remember the changes we went through getting the 66 sorted, mine only finally got corrected about a year ago.

Mine has never been correct,despite many arguments with licensing and somehow at last renewal they lost my light aircraft entitlement.

Be better if we actually get engineers doing engineer licences rather than box ticking clerks

Ttfn

Rigga

20th Oct 2018, 20:48

Alber Ratman

24th Oct 2018, 22:17

Don't forget that, before JAR/EASA 66 came to power, the internationally appreciated CAA BCAR A,C,E,X,I & R almost ruled the world. The new BCAR will undoubtedly mirror the EASA 66 classifications and rank as an ICAO equivalent AML - without the 'level' playing field of EASA vagueness.

BCAR A regulations can be a lot more vaguer that PART M, PART 145 or 147 if you read them (and I have read them). Yes EASA have removed B1 and B2 from support staffs for Base Maintenance. You only have to walk across the road from your office to find out how that works. C Cert still signs off the check and B1/B2 staff do DIs, SSIs and any defects. Guys at A cert level can do the same certs as A guys on the line, but as approved mechanics. Their training across the road is no cornflake packet job, whatever the rampent geriatic ex L holder will shout. Line has not changed. Get a type rating under the changes of 2012. No active interest. You do the job and the guy that should oversign your OJT is trained to do so, company authorised to do so and is doing an ORAL examination of the task as you are doing. You do a list of 50% of every ATA chapter going. true it is not a Basic AML oral, but a good OJT type rating assesor should be doing the same as a CAA suyveror as his role. It is objective to the process, not subjective. British companies stuck their head in the sands and by god did it cost me. I have heard old skool BCARs tell me they blagged ****e. And got away with it. Time will tell what happens and we will find out were we are with out people's bull**** and views of the past will be the same as the furture.

NutLoose

25th Oct 2018, 11:18

Mine has never been correct,despite many arguments with licensing and somehow at last renewal they lost my light aircraft entitlement.

Be better if we actually get engineers doing engineer licences rather than box ticking clerks

Ttfn

My pearl was having a full group rating but in the same breath an aircraft in the said group listed separately with an airframe limitation on it. simply because at 66 kick off it was listed out of the group incorrectly as a complex aircraft and by the CAA's own listed definitions would only have attained the complex performance by having the wings sawn off and having it fired out of a cannon.
It was then later correctly added to the group, but was still listed both in and out of the group on my licence', Pointing out I could certify it under my group rating, the letter from the CAA clerks telling me you can have a full group rating but without all of the aircraft in the said group had my jaw on the floor, the if it's not in the group then you cannot have a full group rating fell on deaf ears until thankfully someone of late realised the farce it was and corrected it at my last renewal.

Ohh I wish for a simpler time when you asked the question what is its MAUW and is it pressurised and that was it, without having to refer to lists of types to see where it resides today.

Exup

25th Oct 2018, 13:19

I just wish you could get thru to talk to someone who understood what you are on about. I recently tried to contact the Licensing section & used the email link direct from the website only to have the email doesn't exist message, got thru on the phone & after 10 minutes was told the email address on the website is incorrect it has an extra dot in it. Finally sent the email & got an automated reply telling me that it could take 18 working days to reply to a non technical question & up to 30 for a technical one. We pay high fees for this service & you wouldn't except it from anyone else you would just swap provider.
if this is the future we're all doomed.

jim70

2nd Nov 2018, 02:35

I wish we could go back to those days instead of feeding the money hungry beauracracy......

Kuchan

5th Nov 2018, 11:14

Any LAME’s here considering converting their licence from U.K. CAA to Irish IAA or similar incase of no deal Brexit?

It seems a popular transfer with pilots, how about engineers?

Discuss...
You are not serious, aren't U!

old,not bold

7th Nov 2018, 09:30

Don't forget that, before JAR/EASA 66 came to power, the internationally appreciated CAA BCAR A,C,E,X,I & R almost ruled the world.

Hmmm.......I'm not sure that those with FAA licences would agree with "almost ruled", especially those in the good ole USofA.. But it's true that a BCAR heritage can be seen in many countries' airworthiness regulations. Was/is BCAR personal licensing so wonderful? No, on the whole. Over-complex and unaffordable, IMHO.

By the way, Kuchan; here is some CAA advice; (https://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/licensed-engineers/)

If you wish to continue to release EU-registered aircraft to service you would need to transfer your licence to the National Aviation Authority of another EASA member state before exit day. You are advised to have a discussion with the relevant NAA as soon as possible about their process and timetable for transfers.

Krystal n chips

7th Nov 2018, 16:39

Rigga

8th Nov 2018, 16:10

" I have heard old skool BCARs tell me they blagged ****e. And got away with it. Time will tell what happens and we will find out were we are with out people's bull**** and views of the past will be the same as the furture. "

With all due respect Albert, I feel some of those who made this boast may have been just a shade prone to exaggeration shall we say.

Did mine many years ago under the BCAR regs and I can assure you, that, trying to blag your way through a decidedly detailed interview with questions selected at random, plus more in depth questions about any errors made on the written paper would not have gone well to put it mildly. True, there are plenty of anecdotal tales of CAA Surveyors and their own "pet areas "......I had the misfortune to meet one who was obsessed with aerodynamics for example, but, with hindsight, he was genuinely interested to learn from his questions how much I really knew.

I know that Alber doesn't have a BCAR Section L and I doubt he has spent a week going through all the BCARS studying how they work for his view of them.
My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on!

Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence

Alber Ratman

8th Nov 2018, 22:42

I know that Alber doesn't have a BCAR Section L and I doubt he has spent a week going through all the BCARS studying how they work for his view of them.
My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on!

Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence

Rigga, I know where they are and how to read them. My EASA module 10 was read the basic Regulations from Part M downwards plus the ANO and BCARs on the CAA website.Had to covered the lot as I had an exam that was as random as the CAA Part 66 one was you would get at Gatwick. I never took the BCAR L route as it was dead before I started in the industry, it was dead before I took my first civilain exam! That was over 12 years ago. I was reading air ledge for a lot longer that a week, try 2 months every evening after I got back from work.. All my PART 66 was self learned. Not one minute in the classroom.

Krystal n chips

9th Nov 2018, 05:15

I know that Alber doesn't have a BCAR Section L and I doubt he has spent a week going through all the BCARS studying how they work for his view of them.
My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on!

Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence

With hindsight, I think that was a UK wide policy, official or otherwise, regarding the initial issue of a Licence in that the Surveyor needed to establish your depth of knowledge and credibility. Thereafter, as you say, those delightful little meetings became progressively shorter.

Alber Ratman

9th Nov 2018, 09:01

With hindsight, I think that was a UK wide policy, official or otherwise, regarding the initial issue of a Licence in that the Surveyor needed to establish your depth of knowledge and credibility. Thereafter, as you say, those delightful little meetings became progressively shorter.
We will see if the old ways are brought back in. However as people joke on here, people in the real world are transfering their licences or companies are preparing to transfer their staff onto other NAA tickets to allow them to work on their non G aircraft. Even guys whom voted for BREXIT I know are doing the same. Only the end of the next few weeks will see what the actual lay of the future will be.

TinyTim2

15th Nov 2018, 19:59

NutLoose

16th Nov 2018, 11:38

I had the unfortunate error of having my Section L oral in the afternoon, someone I knew had his in the morning and the surveyor afterwards unbeknown to me picked his brains about the types I was doing and asked me those questions in the afternoon.

I worked on the principal that they only have so long to ask you questions so went for a simple engine type, airframe type and and my A and C together, that way when he was questioning me my logic dictated he would have to work his A and C questions to my type specific ratings, which he did. :) So I got my licences with type ratings on from day one, though had to study 4 subjects at once.

TURIN

17th Nov 2018, 17:35

Transferring to another NAA works in the short term , but only for 2 years , after that who knows ?
I worked damn hard for my license and having seen how some European EASA licenses are viewed in some parts of the world , I am not about o convert it until I know ALL the consequences !
How easy will it be to get a CAA license after the 2 year period if you converted ?
What will happen on 01 Apr 2019 if any aircraft needs a CRS and the only engineer is UK licensed ?
These and many more questions will be answered at some point , not sure when though !
The way I read the CAA memo issued on 24thSeptember, it looks like a UK CAA Licence will be about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Except of course if you only work on G reg aircraft. Fair enough, the vast majority of the UK certifiers will be ok. However, those handling EU reg aircraft will need an EASA Licence, not after two years but on 29th March 2019.
What fun.

NutLoose

17th Nov 2018, 20:09

In which case there will need to be an agreement in place, or air travel will just about cease overnight, in which case I think it will be rectified if not before, definately shortly afterwards.

Alber Ratman

17th Nov 2018, 21:28

In which case there will need to be an agreement in place, or air travel will just about cease overnight, in which case I think it will be rectified if not before, definately shortly afterwards.
It will be sorted, because as you say, both sides will suffer. But you can bet our equal standing will no longer exist in regards to the rights, certainly of British companies operating European to European routes. Bring on the hard Brexit I say. Let us see Democracy AKA Mob thinking damage the economy of this country big time. Let the lesson be learned the hard way.

Tom Sawyer

17th Nov 2018, 23:03

The way I read the CAA memo issued on 24thSeptember, it looks like a UK CAA Licence will be about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Except of course if you only work on G reg aircraft. Fair enough, the vast majority of the UK certifiers will be ok. However, those handling EU reg aircraft will need an EASA Licence, not after two years but on 29th March 2019.
What fun.

I think there must be a lot of UK Engineers/Pilots heading down the transfer to another EASA State route. I am currently going down the route of obtaining a non-EASA licence from my employers NAA as they accepted that after March I may have a licence that is, well, useless. As part of the process I must obtain from the CAA a Licence Verification letter. On the form it states 10 working to days to process the request, which has now been with the CAA for about 14 working days, so I gave them a call to make sure they had received it . The lady who answered my call explained that applications for most things are currently taking around 26 working days and they are putting on overtime to cope with the level of work they are having to deal with. The last time I applied to them for anything (change of address or additional type), it was as I recall pretty much issued as the timescale stated on the application. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my UK Licence as yet and am waiting until December's political outcomes to decide to try and maybe transfer to Eire.....but at least thanks to my employer I will have some form of licence even if it is non-EASA.

Also, during my discussions with QA about my licence, the company are having to look at their maintenance provisions in a few places around Europe where we handled by UK operators come April as their EASA Pt145 approval could be null and void. They will have to make the decisions soon due to SGHA notice period clauses (and maybe before the hard/soft exit questions have been answered) to ensure continuity of cover, which I guess will see UK companies potentially losing revenue and job loses happening at stations as contracts are moved over to EASA approval holders that are still going to be (confirmed) part of EASA come April.

Now isn't the time for the assumption that all will be OK and a resolution will be found to ensure operations continue.....the realities are happening now and plans are being made.

Rigga

18th Nov 2018, 16:56

To clarify why (I think) there won't be a cliff-edge for aviation...

1. EASA AML Cancellations: As you all say, there's too many of us GB mob all about the EU to do without, suddenly.
2. Forms 1 becoming invalid:far too expensive for all airlines to suffer re-cert costs...
Airbus will suffer wing production costs
RR costs will also go up
Dowty, etc, etc.3. Closure of airports to UK traffic: All North Atlantic routes for the EU are controlled by UK ATC..!
4. Most part 21 design orgs are in the UK for interiors, repairs, mods etc....
5. too many EASA employees are UK based persons...

I have confidence, however seemingly misplaced, that a fudge will be found...we can only wait and see.

Hawkeye63

20th Nov 2018, 13:18

Rigga, I am with you on this one to a point but still feels like one hell of a gamble with our futures. I have suggested concerns I have with the points you have made. I welcome further thoughts on this;

1. EASA AML Cancellations: As you all say, there's too many of us GB mob all about the EU to do without, suddenly.
A.UK airlines/MRO's that only work on UK reg aircraft will not bother but organisations that maintain EU registered aircraft have plans in place to convert their engineers licences in the event of a no-deal. Some airlines have also been actively re-registering their aircraft from UK to other EU states.
2. Forms 1 becoming invalid: far too expensive for all airlines to suffer re-cert costs...
I suggest this could be resolved by a CAA/EU bilateral agreement similar to the FAA. I'm sure this could be done without any bearing on AMEL licences if necessary.
3. Closure of airports to UK traffic: All North Atlantic routes for the EU are controlled by UK ATC..!
I don't know enough about this subject but I would be rubbing my hands together if I was in their boots! What an opportunity to take business from the UK.
4. Most part 21 design orgs are in the UK for interiors, repairs, mods etc....
Can't comment because I don't know enough about this subject.
5. too many EASA employees are UK based persons...
In the event of a no-deal, operators having fleets registered in UK won't care because they can continue to use EASA licenced engineers for at least another two years with full agreement of the CAA. Worryingly, this could play into their hands by making it easier to do away with licences all together by only having company approvals, something that we have been fighting against for years.

esscee

20th Nov 2018, 13:24

^^^^^^^^^^^ What he said.

Hawkeye63

20th Nov 2018, 15:36

Unfortunately I do not have permission to post a URL yet - please see interesting post today from airsound about EU contingency plan for a no-deal - page 10.
Go To Rumours & News > EC Notice & Brexit

Perhaps the fudge is being manufactured as we speak!

Alber Ratman

20th Nov 2018, 19:35

Hawkeye63;

I do not disagree. I work for a G reg only outfit. I see the damage being done by the uncertainly. Brexit is affecting their thinking massively of course. The MRO I know of has a cunning plan. OK for some. Is it a dogs dinner as Mr Lewis mentioning.. yes.

Rigga

22nd Nov 2018, 18:50

I work for an international maintenance company and I'm not (too) worried... we too, have a cunning plan, Mr Blackadder.
Hawkeye - I've read Airsound's points and they sort of agree with mine. A handover of major ATC control to another centre would possibly take weeks to say the least (but just installing capable RADAR might take years to develop). We can allow aircraft to overfly our borders, but aiding them further is a moot point.

If there is a real threat of a no deal - you will see planes leaving UK like flocks of Geese.

old,not bold

26th Nov 2018, 11:02

For any UK AME who did not see it, this landed in my Inbox today, from the UK CAA...

"We have updated the information on our microsite concerning licensed engineers in the event of a non-negotiated EU exit. To enable the CAA time to complete its part in the licence transfer process, the CAA advises that application forms for licence transfers to another EU Member State need to be submitted to the CAA by January 1, 2019.

SW2018/247"

I have to say that I trawled the microsite mentioned to find this update, including "EU Member State transfer of an EASA Part 66 AML" (https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-industry/Aircraft/Airworthiness/Engineer-licences/Part-66/EU-member-state-transfer-of-an-EASA-Part-66-Aircraft-Maintenance-Licence/) which I would have guessed is the relevant page, but I can't find the update. But maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place.

PS; By the way, while trawling I got diverted into the CAA's Code of Practice. It was news to me that they have one, but I can now tell you that this imaginative but fictional work will provide a good laugh to anyone who has experienced at first hand the dreadful, shocking reality of dealing on a routine basis with the SRG.

Hawkeye63

28th Nov 2018, 15:08

Glad its not just me - I couldn't find it either! CAA microsite is cr*p. Skywise app doesn't work. Sign of things to come? :ugh:

NutLoose

29th Nov 2018, 01:26

3. Closure of airports to UK traffic: All North Atlantic routes for the EU are controlled by UK ATC..!
I don't know enough about this subject but I would be rubbing my hands together if I was in their boots! What an opportunity to take business from the UK.

Err somehow doubt that would happen as you would require to overfly UK airspace and Eire wouldn't be able to fly anywhere if the status quo does not remain, UK controlled airspace.

see
https://www.quora.com/Ireland-may-can-block-British-flights-through-its-airspace-in-the-event-of-a-no-deal-Brexit-Now-that-Ireland-and-the-EU-are-baring-their-teeth-do-Brexiteers-feel-a-change-of-attitude

easaman

29th Nov 2018, 17:22

US and UK reach post-Brexit 'Open Skies' deal on air services (https://www.dw.com/en/us-and-uk-reach-post-brexit-open-skies-deal-on-air-services/a-46496516)

Hawkeye63

1st Dec 2018, 01:42

www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/liaison/Oral-evidence-from-the-Prime-Minister-29-11-2018.pdf.
see questions 98-105
Deal or no-deal it would appear the UK is not committing to being a member of EASA by the 29th March because TM wants further negotiations regardless. The EU has previously stated all professional qualifications will be invalid after this date. Then again the other day the EU leaders agreed the proposed deal in principal didn't they? So they will agree to discuss after 29th March or not?
Better get your applications ready to covert boys & girls because even if this proposal is voted in it still doesn't commit us to staying in EASA. I'm losing the will to live.

BluFin

1st Dec 2018, 11:31

Part 21J (Design Organisations) wouldn't make much difference as they are controlled directly by EASA
Part 21G (Production Organisations) are controlled by the NAA and they would be impacted

Link to the Skywise Notice on date for Transfer of State Applications Update to EU exit information ? licensed engineers - SkyWise (http://skywise.caa.co.uk/update-to-eu-exit-information-licensed-engineers/?cat=7)

Microsite FAQ's for licenced Engineers https://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/licensed-engineers/

Link to Webpage for Transfer of State for your Part 66 Licence https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-industry/Aircraft/Airworthiness/Engineer-licences/Part-66/EU-member-state-transfer-of-an-EASA-Part-66-Aircraft-Maintenance-Licence/