Finally ... recognition

[BlunderBus]

Back in the good ol’ USA where a collective “WHO” resounds when asked which airline I work for. Now I’m happy to say .. no more!!
Cathay Pacific is world famous and the comments are now “ OH...CATHAY PACIFIC.. HAHA” what a bunch of dicks you guys are ... can’t even spell your own name!
I stand incredulous in total disbelief that this actually happened to a company of this (ex) stature. Well not really. I now see it more as a legacy of what they have become. A joke at best.Some things people just wont forget .. now instead of just acting completely stupid.. we have to advertise it too!!
Oh well at least we’re a world renowned joke now ... well done everyone.

[Penske]

I believe we set the record for the largest fuel hedging loss in aviation history. So there's that to be proud of......

[Adambrau]

Haha now you know what veterans at UA/CO have been through, 20 years of bad luck, stupidity and a company at war. Perhaps this most famous of mis-spells will mark the moment in CX struggles where things turn around. Maybe ;) It's hard to read these boards and see how something so good went so wrong.

[Flex88]

Back in the good ol’ USA where a collective “WHO” resounds when asked which airline I work for. Now I’m happy to say .. no more!!
Cathay Pacific is world famous and the comments are now “ OH...CATHAY PACIFIC.. HAHA” what a bunch of dicks you guys are ... can’t even spell your own name!
I stand incredulous in total disbelief that this actually happened to a company of this (ex) stature. Well not really. I now see it more as a legacy of what they have become. A joke at best.Some things people just wont forget .. now instead of just acting completely stupid.. we have to advertise it too!!
Oh well at least we’re a world renowned joke now ... well done everyone.

Yeh but they negotiated an absolute best lowest cost deal for paint jobs. Its all that matters...

[BlunderBus]

I can’t find anyone,and I know plenty, In high finance that actually believe this company, in the wake of nick leeson and wall street sub prime, took a multi billion uninsured one way bet on 6 years worth of gross income on the price of the worlds most volatile commodity. And I don’t believe it either.

[Tea time]

Of course they didn’t that’s why no one was fired , Who knows how much they pay for fuel or who the intermediary third party is between the company and the fuel company . But you can bet it’s a Swire entity . That way you suck the profits from Cathay and fill the Swires coffers whilst at the same time crying poverty , charging the passengers a fuel excess and keeping the pesky pilots in line .
Cathay with much wringing of hands “ we would love to grant you all a pay rise ,but sadly with all the money lost from the fuel hedging there simply isn’t anything left in the kitty to give ‘“

[Flying Clog]

Right on the money Tea Time.

[Slasher1]

Don’t ya mean right on the money laundry ?

[Frogman1484]

No such thing as bad publicity. How much would it have cost to appear in all of these tv shows and web pages?

[VR-HFX]

Tea Time, you give them too much credit. I was of the same theory on the fuel hedge but a lot of digging has led me to believe they were hoodwinked by a bunch of sweet-talking investment bankers. It seems the hoodwinking required nothing more than some entertainment and stroking of egos. Who would have thunk it?

[Frogman1484]

The fuel,hedge is a 100% inside job...no doubt there!

[8driver]

Makes things easy. Now I can answer "Kathy Who" with "the airline that spelled its name wrong on the plane."

[BlunderBus]

They’re making it so easy to leave now. Nothing to miss or look forward to anymore. The old loyal hands in every department being dumped like so much trash. The newbies hooked on a ‘litany of lies’ If I was asked to say something over that final handshake it would be....
”I’ll never look back”

[raven11]

Agree BlunderBus.
Had a discussion with a young RQ the other day who said that the good thing about COS 18 was that it clearly showed the shine was off working here; and that there was no longer any hope of improvement to his HKPA or anything else. Instead, COS18 confirmed his suspicion that his current conditions were now doomed to deteriorate toward those in COS18. He no longer holds any illusion of improvements or lasting peace between the pilots and this management. He told me that it would now be foolish of him to not seek opportunities outside Hong Kong. Just as so many others have concluded to do.

In my mind I can’t help but wonder how much money the Company is willing to throw away by writing off the investments already made in training and developing such people. All in the hope of phantom savings that can be theoretically achieved by the ludicrous concept of replacing experienced pilots with scores of zero time, or third world, “talent” willing to work for HKA/HKE (low cost carrier) conditions.

No airline can truly succeed if it is to bear the cost of continuously turning over a large percentage of its pilot pool.

[Flying Clog]

Well said raven11. My thoughts exactly.

[mngmt mole]

Both my FO's, coming in from a European port the other day validated your comments. They were both accelerating their plans to leave, due the same conclusion: COS18 has confirmed that the only direction is now down, and their hopes for improvements to their own contracts had come to nothing. I suspect that there are many hundreds more who were sitting on the fence waiting for the outcome of negotiations. Ironically, a contract that didn't even involve them has probably told them more than their own negotiations would have. Time to Leave.

[Freehills]

Tea Time, you give them too much credit. I was of the same theory on the fuel hedge but a lot of digging has led me to believe they were hoodwinked by a bunch of sweet-talking investment bankers. It seems the hoodwinking required nothing more than some entertainment and stroking of egos. Who would have thunk it?

This. Cockup, not conspiracy...

[unitedabx]

There are a number of threads at the moment which all touch on similar themes.

1.Swires have been told by their Beijing masters that they are out of Hong Kong within 10 years. Thats everything, airline, property, insurance, shipping, EVERYTHING. A blind eye will ( and has been turned ) to any efforts Swires make to bleed their entities dry before leaving. Merlin is here to oversee this handover.
2.CX/KA will merge and become the southern branch of Air China. Named simply "CATHAY" but will retain it's own AOC out of Hong Kong.
3. This new airline will be populated by local Hong Kong managers and pilots at local rates of pay. They are being postioned and recruited now.
4.Expats will wither on the vine and if any remain after the 10 years they will be offered local terms or shown the door. Just like the expats in the police were after 1997.
4.The CX product is being diluted to match the expectations of the mainland customers who dominate the bookings. Not quite no frills but certainly all Jackie Chan movies and noodle dinners. No need for flowers in C class toilets when most of the customers stand on the seats to pee.
5.With 1.5 billion passengers to tap into, competing with the Middle Eastern airlines shrinks into insignificance. The American carriers currently in the ascendance would kill to get 1% of this mainland business.

Result, a colonial company determined to bleed every last drop out of it's assets and employees before it is kicked out itself. Current pilots have a choice. Stay and turn the lights out when you go. Or leave now.

[FUANNA]

There are a number of threads at the moment which all touch on similar themes.

1.Swires have been told by their Beijing masters that they are out of Hong Kong within 10 years. Thats everything, airline, property, insurance, shipping, EVERYTHING. A blind eye will ( and has been turned ) to any efforts Swires make to bleed their entities dry before leaving. Merlin is here to oversee this handover.
2.CX/KA will merge and become the southern branch of Air China. Named simply "CATHAY" but will retain it's own AOC out of Hong Kong.
3. This new airline will be populated by local Hong Kong managers and pilots at local rates of pay. They are being postioned and recruited now.
4.Expats will wither on the vine and if any remain after the 10 years they will be offered local terms or shown the door. Just like the expats in the police were after 1997.
4.The CX product is being diluted to match the expectations of the mainland customers who dominate the bookings. Not quite no frills but certainly all Jackie Chan movies and noodle dinners. No need for flowers in C class toilets when most of the customers stand on the seats to pee.
5.With 1.5 billion passengers to tap into, competing with the Middle Eastern airlines shrinks into insignificance. The American carriers currently in the ascendance would kill to get 1% of this mainland business.

Result, a colonial company determined to bleed every last drop out of it's assets and employees before it is kicked out itself. Current pilots have a choice. Stay and turn the lights out when you go. Or leave now.


Finally, someone gets it. Thank you.

[Freehills]

Odd mix of rumours!

1. No, Swire have been allowed to expand property & coca cola interests in PRC, why would they be asked to leave HK?
2. Actually makes sense, but Air China would need to decide what to do with Shenzhen Airlines
3. Actually makes sense. The "Swire Princes" now being recruited as graduates are on very different terms to, say, 15 years ago
4. Has already happened in most other industries (banking/ property etc) in HK.
4. I think your view of PRC customers is a generation out of date
5. India is also a huge market, but apart from the LCC Indigo, everyone is losing money

[unitedabx]

Freehills

1.The business expansion by Swire's in the PRC is not the same as here in HKG. Most are joint ventures with Swire's providing consultancy and management advice. Not a single property is a true Swire development. In HKG at the new Tung Chung Outlet mall expansion, formerly a Swire development is in fact a PRC company with Swire management.
2.Shenzhen Airlines has useful slots in Shenzhen easily absorbed by the new Air China Cathay operation.
3.Don'tkid yourself. Ask any Cx flight attendant.

[boresite]

Freehills

1.The business expansion by Swire's in the PRC is not the same as here in HKG. Most are joint ventures with Swire's providing consultancy and management advice. Not a single property is a true Swire development. In HKG at the new Tung Chung Outlet mall expansion, formerly a Swire development is in fact a PRC company with Swire management.
2.Shenzhen Airlines has useful slots in Shenzhen easily absorbed by the new Air China Cathay operation.
3.Don'tkid yourself. Ask any Cx flight attendant.

Discussing with another Captain of similar seniority recently, we decided, "just follow the money". I think this was his/our takeaway:

​​​​​​Interesting!!!! The expansion of Swire's China property business, in partnership with Citic, coincided with the plumping up [of post-2008-crash] cash-strapped Noble Group [ a HK supply chain company listed in Singapore - think coal, bunker oil... and .... jet fuel] The quid pro quo was alleged to have been the planned sale of said Noble Group to Chinachem: - thus ensuring Mainland supply of raw material. Unfortunately the sale was reportedly blocked in the WTO by the U.S.A. .... Geopolitics.
So where does Cathay Pacific fit into this? well other than taking a naked position on fuel hedges it is rather enlightening. The Cathay fuel hedge[s] coincided with increased of manpower on the Noble Group jet fuel desk.
Lead non-Executive Director of Noble Group? one Christopher Pratt!
So, just looking at the [alleged] other players in the game: KPMG: architects of the fuel hedge and coincidently CPGroup auditors, financed by HSBC [HK] amongst others. A perusal of the Board Members of these companies may reveal some further 'cross-pollination'.
Is CXgroup in play to placate Mainland interests? .... probably should go and ask Merlin about a planned sale to Air China.

[Freehills]

Citygate (Tung Chung) is a joint venture owned equally (20% each) by Swire, Hang Lung, Henderson, New World and Sun Hung Kai, and was from the start, but with Swire managing it None of those are PRC companies, I am sure you have been in HK long enough to recognise the names!

[VR-HFX]

Boresite....keep boring away. You are getting warmer. For those who don't remember our soft-spoken and often invisible Chairman (he was the one that fell into the job after Turnbull retired early)

Christopher Dale Pratt is an Independent Non-Executive Director of the Company (Noble Group). Mr. Pratt was the Executive Chairman of Swire Pacific Limited from February 2006 until his retirement in March 2014. He was also Chairman of Cathay Pacific Airways Limited, Hong Kong Aircraft Engineering Company Limited, John Swire & Sons (H.K.) Limited and Swire Properties Limited, and a Director of Swire Beverages Limited, Air China Limited and The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation Limited. He joined the Swire group in 1978 and has worked with the group in Hong Kong, Australia and Papua New Guinea. Mr. Pratt was awarded the CBE (Commander of the Order of the British Empire) in 2000 for Services to the Community in Papua New Guinea. Mr. Pratt is an Independent Non-Executive Director of Johnson Electric Holdings Limited, PureCircle Limited and the Grosvenor Group. He is also a Senior Adviser to Morgan Stanley Asia Pacific Investment Banking.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

It would appear that as of 27 Aug 18 Christopher Pratt is no longer on the board of directors of Nobel Group (where he was a member of Audit, Investment and Capital Markets, Remuneration and Options, and Risk Committees), and that Noble Group was/is in trouble after posting large losses and facing allegations of financial impropriety.

"Noble Group, once one of the world’s biggest commodity trading houses, characterized him as a disgruntled former junior employee behind a series of reports by Iceberg Research, an anonymous group that began attacking its accounting practices in 2015.
After writing down billions of dollars, including on contract valuations questioned by Iceberg, Noble’s market capitalization stands at $115 million. At its peak in 2011, the company was valued at $11.7 billion. Noble defaulted on its bonds and now faces a do-or-die struggle to keep going with a $3.5 billion debt-for-equity rescue that will hand control to creditors." DealStreetAsia 16Aug18


"SINGAPORE (Reuters) - In May 2017, Paul Brough had just assumed the chairmanship of Noble Group and immediately faced a room full of angry bankers demanding their money back from the struggling commodity trader...
In the 15 months between Brough’s appointment and last week’s deal, Noble dramatically downsized and reported a $4.9 billion loss for 2017, including a $2.1 billion valuation adjustment of its controversial derivatives contracts.
Then in October, it [Noble Group] announced the sale of its most capital-intensive business, oil trading, to Vitol for $1.2 billion. “The first glimmer of hope was when we announced the sale of the oil business,” said Brough, who will step down after the restructured company, focusing on coal and freight trading in Asia, kicks off later this year." Reuters 04 Sep 18