SSEA SLMG Microlight differences NPPL

[stormdot5]

The licensing rules for UK pilots seem very obfuscated. My question is about the UK NPPL.

What is the difference between SSEA, SLMG, and Microlight in terms of the license? Are these weight, engine, and passenger differences? They don´t appear to be in a hierarchy as expected.

Secondly do these differences in license correlate to aircraft classifications themselves? It appears in other countries that you would have microlight, then LSA, then GA aircraft increasing in weight and capability each time and licensing or training to correlate. Do we use equivalent ratings or something else?

Could really do with some help clearing this confusion.


If this needs to be in a different part of the forum could a mod move it please.

[MaxR]

SSEA is to fly simple, single engined aircraft, SLMG is to fly self-abuse motorised gliders, microlight is to fly microlights. If you want to fly an SSEA, that's the rating you train and apply for; if you want to fly SLMGs, that's what you go for; if microlights are your thing then, it's the microlight rating for you. If you want to fly more than one class of aircraft then you do the appropriate training and apply for more than one rating. No more complicated than that.

[Maoraigh1]

"SLMG is to fly self-abuse "
Autocorrect strikes again.:rolleyes:

[Genghis the Engineer]

The licensing rules for UK pilots seem very obfuscated. My question is about the UK NPPL.

What is the difference between SSEA, SLMG, and Microlight in terms of the license? Are these weight, engine, and passenger differences? They don´t appear to be in a hierarchy as expected.


SSEA - fixed gear, up to 2 tonnes, up to 4 POB, max stall speed 61kts. This encompasses what in some countries is called LSA.

SLMG - long slender wing (there's a formal definition for that), max 2 seats, max 750kg, max stall speed 80 kph.

Microlight - 450kg (472.5kg with a ballistic parachute), max 2 seats, max stall speed 35kts. This encompasses some LSA aeroplanes. [Or 300kg, single seat, all else the same.]

All single engine, all stalling speeds in the landing configuration.

G

[MaxR]

"SLMG is to fly self-abuse "
Autocorrect strikes again.:rolleyes:

Oops, yes, it was auto-correct. I typed self-launching; honestly I did. :}

[Jan Olieslagers]

@MaxR: nothing keeps you from editing your original message. I honestly admit the "self-abuse" sounded like sarcasm...

Regarding the original question, I consulted dear old Wikipedia, and found a phrase "The European flight crew regulations are expected to change in 2012" - I marked that for needing update, but feel insufficiently informed to actually do update the article. Any volunteer? If uneasy about the Wikipedia environment, pm me the correct info and I'll update the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Private_Pilot_Licence

[Genghis the Engineer]

What's the point Jan? I might know the regulations at the start of the editing process, they'll have changed by the time I've finished typing.

G

[Jan Olieslagers]

The point is that, as I read the page, it announces a change in regulations in 2012... 6 years over date now, must be developing some unsavoury smells. So some update to the article is in order.

But yes, the scene may be changing rapidly, and perhaps the Brexit saga might bring more changes, though this NPPL is a British-only document.

[Colibri49]

What is the difference between SSEA, SLMG, and Microlight in terms of the license?

You left out SEP. Not that I understand these differences either! I read something recently which gave the impression that I shouldn't have been flying a friend's 3-axis microlight while holding only an old UK PPL. This in spite of an instructor having assured me a couple of years ago that I could, without having to undergo separate training. So now I simply stick to flying only my own SEP with the old licence, not needing ever to fly outside the UK.

[DaveW]

You left out SEP.

Try this:

http://i65.tinypic.com/vr7g43.jpg

[Genghis the Engineer]

Colibri, SEP is what it says - Single Engine, Piston.

SSEA is a subset of SEP

SLA is a subset of SSEA

Microlight is a subset of SLA.

SLMG and TMG are a variation on SEP that has a long slender wing.


Microlights have particular handling characteristics because many variations have high drag and low inertia, as well as a very low stalling speed. Motorgliders have particular handling characteristics because of the long slender wing. Hence a reason for both to require at the very least some kind of differences training.

SLA is not a pilot licencing category, it's an airworthiness category.

SSEA is not an airworthiness category it's a pilot licencing category.

That most SLAs will fall into the SSEA licencing category is an interesting coincidence, and unsurprising as they are both about relative light weight and simplicity. But they do draw lines in different places because what matters in determining a safe aeroplane is not always the same as matters in determining a safe pilot.

G

[BEagle]

'SSEA' is a sub-set of SEP Class. This came about because some time-wasting idiot accused the CAA of giving him privileges beyond the limits of the NPPL. Rather than telling him to STFU, they had to invent 'SSEA' to keep the stupid sod quiet. Some early NPPLs had already been issued with 'SEP' Class privileges, but most of the licence holders knew that meant 'SEP up to 2000 kg with no more than 4 PoB'.

The NPPL Policy and Steering Committee did not welcome the CAA's change from SEP to SSEA! We thought it totally unnecessary.

[Colibri49]

DaveW,

The fact that I spent more than four decades earning my living as a pilot, in no way helps me to get to grips mentally with the complicated (dog's breakfast) licensing and aircraft classification system which prevails in the UK. Thanks for the table above which you provided, but I fear that anno domini is weighing heavily upon my ever dwindling set of brain cells.

[India Four Two]

Well, that's not complicated at all, is it? ;)

I did learn something new though - that there are two types of motor glider.

One of my club's rich members has just bought an Arcus M with an 800 Kg gross weight. Is that a TMG in the UK?

[Jan Olieslagers]

You left out SEP. And wasn't there a thing called SSDR, too? Brits and their authorities are really good at making matters complicated and - what was it? - obfuscated ? - for the common good, I doubt not.

Mind you, the SS in SSDR is different from the SS in SSEA. Heaven forbid things should be clear, lest obvious!, at first sight!

[patowalker]

SLA is a subset of SSEA
...
SLA is not a pilot licencing category, it's an airworthiness category.
...
That most SLAs will fall into the SSEA licencing category is an interesting coincidence, and unsurprising as they are both about relative light weight and simplicity. But they do draw lines in different places because what matters in determining a safe aeroplane is not always the same as matters in determining a safe pilot.
G

What is an SLA? A cross between a VLA and an LSA?

[Jan Olieslagers]

In my trade, it is a Service Level Agreement - but that is perhaps not what was meant ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Apologies, I meant LSA (Light Sports Aircraft).

There used to be a category called SLA (Small Light Aeroplane) but it got merged into microlight. I could explain that history, but I suspect that nobody's deeply interested.

SSDR is, again, an airworthiness, not a licencing category. It stands for "Single Seat, DeRegulated" and now co-incides with the single seat microlight definition. It has nothing to do with licencing, which is the same as for any other microlight.

G

[460]

An Arcus M is indeed magnificent, but never a TMG.

The UK's definition is the EU one:‘Touring Motor Glider’ (TMG) means a specific class of powered sailplane having an integrally mounted, non-retractable engine and a non-retractable propeller. It shall be capable of taking off and climbing under its own power according to its flight manual. (From the Aircrew Regulation Reg(EU) 1178/2011)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Again, take care about licencing versus airworthiness regs.

All gliders and motorgliders are certified to the same set of rules - CS.22, which permits up to 750kg without an engine, and up to 850kg with an engine.

G

[rkgpilot]

I’m confused - Grob 109 series aircraft and Dimonas/Super Dimonas have varying max weights, up to 930kg that I know of. Are they technically in a different classification from that described above?

I’m in process of training on a Grob 109b so as to add TMG to my EASA PPL and SLMG to my U.K. PPL - I’d like to understand the significance of all this. If I subsequently apply for NPPL with SSEA and SLMG ( which is what the original question was about) would I not be able to fly one of these particular aircraft on that licence because they are over 750kg?

[BossEyed]

No, you are fine.

(Super) Dimonas and G109Bs are TMGs for EASA (and SLMG for UK PPLs) as per the table on page 1 of this thread..

[Genghis the Engineer]

I’m confused - Grob 109 series aircraft and Dimonas/Super Dimonas have varying max weights, up to 930kg that I know of. Are they technically in a different classification from that described above?

I’m in process of training on a Grob 109b so as to add TMG to my EASA PPL and SLMG to my U.K. PPL - I’d like to understand the significance of all this. If I subsequently apply for NPPL with SSEA and SLMG ( which is what the original question was about) would I not be able to fly one of these particular aircraft on that licence because they are over 750kg?
I was on the team that certified the Vigilant T1 for the RAF Air Cadets, and we certified it above 850kg by using military rather than civil regulations. That may be the G109 you're thinking of which we approved at 908kg.

Super Dimonas are good up to 770kg I think, so within the 850kg.

It's always possible to go above 850kg, but you'll need to take the aeroplane into part 23.

And, at risk of sounding like a stuck record DO NOT CONFUSE AIRWORTHINESS WITH PILOT LICENCING REGULATIONS - THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

G

[MaxR]

@MaxR: nothing keeps you from editing your original message. I honestly admit the "self-abuse" sounded like sarcasm...

Jan - if you knew me, you'd know that that's even more likely than you imagined but I can assure you that in this case it was entirely the work of my phone. I would have edited my original post but that would have made Maoraigh's post meaningless. I have spent some happy times flying SLMGs and hope to again in the near future so I have nothing against them at all. None of which means that I won't now use the term self-abuse motorised gliders now that my phone's thought of it :E.