COS18

[Hydrolix]

Oh dear
Oh dear
Oh dear

[Shoebox]

Designed to Repel Top Talent

[Some How I'm Tired]

Just when you thought this place couldn't get any worse! If they can't attract talent now, how do they think they are going to with a massive reduction (destruction) in conditions?

At least we will know the I.Q. of anyone joining on these conditions...

[AQIS Boigu]

Aimed at Top Talent from the DFO’s homeland

[gretzky99]

Any chance the AOA will come to the conclusion that now is the perfect time to withhold ALL goodwill, and continue CC, including through the weekend and any unfortunately timed weather that might be present?

[reazasassain]

Designed to undermine your condition of service. Good luck getting an adequate increase in the future with a new D scale.

Good job painting the future for all of us who have not applied to airlines back home. Such a pity

[OK4Wire]

All stick and no carrot.


And the real reason for CMP is brought up:



"Target annual block hours have been set at a high, but attainable level [...] and will be supported by the new CMP enabling pilots to achieve target productivity levels." I assume that will be 900?



Thank you, HKAOA.

[gretzky99]

..target estimated at 70% fixed and 30% variable..

More importantly, if you’re not near 900, it’s now a 30% paycut!

[Panhandle]

That’s 900 stick hours, not credit hours I assume. What is the pfund contribution % for ground staff in HKG?.

[Avinthenews]

How do we know it's 900 max it could be 1200 or no bunk credit, we have also received a cut as we will eventually be doing all regional for maximum productivity and minimum hours the new crew will do all the hours just to get a full pay cheque.

We are the HKAOA what will we do? Trainers are you going to train yourself into a lower pay scale?

I'm all right Jack 😠

[raven11]

DESIGNED TO ATTRACT TOP TALENT

Eligible for discretionary year end bonus and profit share🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪

Sadly, things will not change here. For those with options it would be prudent to explore and act on them; for those yet to join, it’s buyer beware!

The embarrassment continues...

[SloppyJoe]

With this new contract surely we need to demand CMP requests are awarded in strict seniority. Transparency will be the only way to assure those on 08/99 are not just given the low productive trips resulting in min days off, but reaching 84 hours.

[Jnr380]

Where do I sign?
After all I love paying 50% of my gross wage to rent a semi decent (by HK standards) size village house in the middle of nowhere!
At least Emirates gives you that for free with utilities included if that is your comparison .....

[STW]

Many of those who commented on COS18 above are the very same guys who keep on telling LEP about how bad their package is. For years and years now.

Will you now continue the same genius strategy with those on COS18?

All you achieve is a perpetual big fat No in all future negotiations, meaning no pay rise and no secured housing deal.A constant impasse plus the occasional letter in the mailbox informing about the next unilateral change.
Is that what you want??

You guys just have to understand, pretty please, sugar plum with a cherry on top, pleeeeeeeease:

The market has changed,or at least the company thinks it has, either way, like it or not, they will probably get enough people. Nothing to do with the IQ of the new-joiner, the level of talent etc, it is simply still a better option than flying King Airs out of Kigali or working in a cubicle in Shenzen. You need to understand, please, it is not about what we think is fair and just ( I certainly don't), what we deem enough to live on, it is pure and simple a question of demand and supply.

Plus nobody is or was forced to sign and join COS 18 or the former C scale, let's not forget that either.

[STW]

Firefly, since YEARS you and others are fantasizing about parked aircraft. Hasn't happened or has it?

Maybe it's cheaper for an airline to park instead of paying everybody more, maybe other reasons, what do I know or care! Totally irrelevant for us. Even IF it would happen, I could not care less.

[TSIO540]

From the outside in, how bad is it?

In 2014 I made $1.0M as an FO, on this contract if you work hard you could make $875,000 in 2019 with 28 fewer days of leave. An absolute joke! Honestly if you are on the hold file, DONT ACCEPT this crap!

[unitedabx]

HKAOA totally blind sided by this new COS18. They were never even informed of it's publication. So what the **** do they do at the meetings they insist on attending with the company ? A very quick crunch of the numbers shows the FO salary to be "on a par" with most middle east operators BUT these carriers have tax free regimes and free housing and schooling. This new COS18 does not. So take away the real cost of living as a family in Hong Kong and your are 30-40% behind. Simple maths. The actual contract also permit DEC's should the market dictate.
KA union given a heads up last week.

[Freehills]

I am almost impressed by their chutzpah.

[KABOY]

KA union given a heads up last week.
Really??? What was the heads up, as you seem to be clued in...

i wont say I smell bull**** as you enjoy the confrontation.

[unitedabx]

Really??? What was the heads up, as you seem to be clued in...

i wont say I smell bull**** as you enjoy the confrontation.


Email from DFO last Wednesday and it was discussed in the week before the KA pay deal was agreed. Hence the rush to sign it you knew what was coming. Don't deny it.

[Karrupted]

Easy.
Group-wide training ban, wef 01Dec18 (the day CoS18 becomes effective).
Anything less and we will be complicit in the destruction of our profession.
It really is that simple.

K.

[mngmt mole]

A travesty. A sick joke and an affront on our profession. Anyone who isnt now planning on leaving deserves what they get. Its hard to comprehend how far this airline has fallen. Tragic.

[Gnadenburg]

Email from DFO last Wednesday and it was discussed in the week before the KA pay deal was agreed. Hence the rush to sign it you knew what was coming. Don't deny it.What are you on about? On refection, the only heads up the KA guys may have had is the resignation of our Head of Training a few weeks ago ( sorry I don't know his correct title ). DPA found out today or just recently? I think we are in this together.

This is a brave counter-attack by the company that will only work if CX and KA pilots are truly routed.

[STW]

mngmt mole, are you saying you are now escalating from seriously looking to planning to leave?

[mngmt mole]

14 month from retirement STW. But I recieved your fatuous comment for the mindless value it represented. Perhaps you might want to comment on the value of the CX career to those under the age of 45? Ie: "0"

[STW]

My point is people will still join and enough of us will stay.

I suggest to finally get on with it and sign the offered deal. It will not get better, we already lost 5% because unfortunately nobody listened to me. If we don't it will get even worse.

[mngmt mole]

Interesting way to "make your point" STW. I believe you are the only one who understands your cleverness.

[STW]

Achievements during CC and training ban ( as we speak):

- no 5 % pay increase
- no 2 year housing deal
- no HKPA increase
- closure of MAN
- no more basings
- D scale

[mngmt mole]

Then attack the company and not your fellow pilots. Seriously...:rolleyes:

[STW]

Fair point. My apologies, it was meamt as a joke about pilots who seem to talk a lot about leaving but never do. Nothing personal.

[mngmt mole]

STW, many pilots ARE leaving (and COS 18 will turbocharge that trend). Let's put this one to bed shall we? (btw, I see you "are new here", "0" posts....otherwise known as management. Thanks for suggesting we should just "get on with it and sign the new deal". Are management really getting this desperate?)

[Flying Clog]

This really is Cathay on it's death bed. The airline is completely screwed, and short term cost-cutting will kill it off completely.

Who in THEIR RIGHT MINDS would accept these terms knowing the cost of living and career prospect implications in Hong Kong?

Only one group - South African refugees. That's who this **** jellyfish is catering for, that much is clear. A slight increase in HKPA, overseas kid's education, commute to SA with the low cost of living, simples, come on over, the water is lovely.

NOW is the time to enact a group wide training ban, KA and CX. I should think a recruitment ban. Or maybe even a full on strike. Most of us don't care anymore.

Biggest mistake I ever made joining this sh!t shower of an airline.

[Will IB Fayed]

Who in THEIR RIGHT MINDS would accept these terms knowing the cost of living and career prospect implications in Hong Kong?

lol, the same thing was said a few years ago. Trust me, the spikey haired brigade (MKII) will turn up and pay for their training.....

[Gaisha]

Industrial action is the only method that KA should look to enforcing. Two airlines in CC, although not the end of the world for them, would certainly show the public that things are bleak across the entire group. Time to find your balls fellas. Seems you lost them a few months ago when you voted YES to 0%! The only way of redeeming yourselves is to convince the sympathisers amongst your lot that GOOD WILL goes unnoticed and exposes your weaknessesss. They will try and convince you that it’s only applicable to new joiners but they have effectively eliminated any possibility of an improvement on current contracts. The trainers are the backbone of their plan. They will decide the fate of this company.

[cxorcist]

What’s obvious to me is that this new package will further lower the operating and experience standards among SOs and FOs. Over time, this will bleed into the captain ranks. This is what C&Ters should be really concerned about. Will it be your name on the certificate and file of these pilots when the inevitable accident occurs? Honestly, do you want that on your conscience? Take the industrial out of it. Are you actually willing to lower yourself this way? If the answer is yes, then you are no better than any of those pilot and non-pilot managers working on the third and ninth floors.

[GTC58]

Bases are dead too. No point in having to comply with labour laws, when someone can have really cheap pilots in Hong Kong. Next NTC, early retirement packages to get more pilots on D scale.

[unitedabx]

The company will have done it's homework and there will be hundreds who will apply even on COS18. All this was said about D Scalers and there are hundreds of them flying with us now. If you live in a country with a surplus of pilots and a passport that limits your travels then Hong Kong is one rare opportunity to get out and fly jets. For others they can get their pilots wings and live with mum and dad back in HKG so the cost of living isn't a factor. A recruitment ban. How's that going to work? CX does the recruitment not the AOA. A training ban ? Even AOA members have ignored that directive with absolutely no penalties applied. 4 more members moving up to STC on the A fleet this week alone. With Jet and Air India bankrupt there are thousands of pilots looking for a lifeline and the proposed starting FO pay scale is DOUBLE a Jet Airways captains pay. The sub continent will supply the pilots CX needs and miraculously bases will be offered in Mumbai and Delhi for Indian passport holders only ( of course ). Others talk of strike action. Never in a million years will that happen here. KA is being absorbed and will exist for AOC purposes only within 3 years. The task set by the Board to the new DFO is to merge the seniority lists by the end of his tenure. COS18 is phase 1. KA and CX pilots to act as one body. Really. When the CX captains were denied their 13th month did we see the KA pilots suggest a united front.No way. They took their money and banked it. KA pilots are on their own. The kid gloves are off and their cosy "flying club" is no more. They now face the full wrath of CX management and it will be lambs to the slaughter. This is the reality we find ourselves in.

[Kitsune]

The sound of all those ‘B’ Scale pigeons coming home to roost must be deafening... the very same guys who undermined the ‘A’ Scale contract (after all, the company told us that they’d already recruited an entire year’s pilot requirement on the contract that we wouldn’t even contemplate) now whine and bleat about the very same thing happening to them, as we told them at the time. Suck it up.

[unitedabx]

The sound of all those ‘B’ Scale pigeons coming home to roost must be deafening... the very same guys who undermined the ‘A’ Scale contract (after all, the company told us that they’d already recruited an entire year’s pilot requirement on the contract that we wouldn’t even contemplate) now whine and bleat about the very same thing happening to them, as we told them at the time. Suck it up.

Kitsune you are so right.

[Avinthenews]

A recent point raised this morning, IS IT OVER?

Either the AOA takes positive action or we simply become a membership with insurance benifits.

Are the laws in Hong Kong simply beyond western rules?

[tyson744]

60K a year education. Good luck with that. Example one. Discovery Bay International School. A primary school. 55K entrance fee and 12000 per month per child. Do not come here if you have children or plan to be a parent.
You have been warned.
Rent for small family, not lux, not much change from 30 000 per month, after you have paid your two months deposit, and one months commission to letting agent.
You have been warned.
Then you have to pay utilities, buy food and maybe save some money. You can not sustain a western style lifestyle in Hong Kong on this package. And commuting is not a plan. Its a short term thing that some pilots do when children out grow Hong Kong education system. And believe me most of them do by year 8.
Note I don't post very often, but when I do I mean it.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

[Xwindldg]

And yet you can still be an associate member after brining this COS in!!!!

[Gnadenburg]

KA is being absorbed and will exist for AOC purposes only within 3 years. The task set by the Board to the new DFO is to merge the seniority lists by the end of his tenure. COS18 is phase 1. KA and CX pilots to act as one body. Really. When the CX captains were denied their 13th month did we see the KA pilots suggest a united front.No way. They took their money and banked it. KA pilots are on their own. The kid gloves are off and their cosy "flying club" is no more. They now face the full wrath of CX management and it will be lambs to the slaughter. This is the reality we find ourselves in.

Perhaps we were waiting for you to do something?

But really, think about it. What would you have us do? We were in bitter contract compliance for years and understood the limitations and never asked for your assistance. Yet you expected us to do what? What did you do?

The pilot groups are being drawn closer together yet you are doing all you can to break an emerging bond? Our trainers are stood down and we aren't in CC. Our operation is more fragile in nature and our attrition isn't far from yours. Yet you want to fracture an intuitive merging of interests? I'm not sure how representative you are of your group but you don't seem much of a battler- preferring to blame others to justify a passive position?

[Flex88]

A, B, C, D, E, F, G... you know the song.
The "jellyfish" strikes again:ok: Already he walks into a massive year end bonus.

Carefull, make sure you pull the stick out before you stand up.

#CXit

[unitedabx]

Perhaps we were waiting for you to do something?

But really, think about it. What would you have us do? We were in bitter contract compliance for years and understood the limitations and never asked for your assistance. Yet you expected us to do what? What did you do?

The pilot groups are being drawn closer together yet you are doing all you can to break an emerging bond? Our trainers are stood down and we aren't in CC. Our operation is more fragile in nature and our attrition isn't far from yours. Yet you want to fracture an intuitive merging of interests? I'm not sure how representative you are of your group but you don't seem much of a battler- preferring to blame others to justify a passive position?

I would urge KA pilots to do SOMETHING. Your cushy contracts which you have defended quietly for the last 20 years whilst your CX colleagues got battered are coming to an end. Every aspect of your operation is being run by CX now and KA really has been reduced to CX's little sister airline that feeds the main company from China. DO SOMETHING. You have far less to loose than the CX pilots after all you have a 3 year pay deal and time to act. I wouldn't wait for the CX pilots to join you. We are spineless and worse have no union leadership to take us down any campaign or line of support for you.

[Gnadenburg]

Well you are a great delegator of industrial action. I'd suggest it best not to insult the various pilot groups so as to achieve that result !

[Slasher1]

If you envision any career in the airline business, and have more than a couple years to go before retirement, if this isn’t a HUGE wake up call to bail ASAP I do not know what is.

[BBN RADAR]

@unitedabx
We are spineless and worse have no union leadership to take us down any campaign or line of support for you.
No doubt.
When you did NOTHING after being deprived of your 13th month, you showed them exactly how weak you are as a pilot body. And now you’ve got the temerity to ask KA pilots to fight your battles for you - it’s a bit pathetic. Leadership needs to start at the top. This means you Senior Captains (whether C&T or not).

(Oh, and I’m sure that if we did something bold and then we were made an example of, you would unite behind us and defend us with the same bravado you showed your own colleagues in 2001) :rolleyes:

[unitedabx]

@unitedabx

No doubt.
When you did NOTHING after being deprived of your 13th month, you showed them exactly how weak you are as a pilot body. And now you’ve got the temerity to ask KA pilots to fight your battles for you - it’s a bit pathetic. Leadership needs to start at the top. This means you Senior Captains (whether C&T or not).

(Oh, and I’m sure that if we did something bold and then we were made an example of, you would unite behind us and defend us with the same bravado you showed your own colleagues in 2001) :rolleyes:


You are right we at CX did nothing about the 13th month and got walked over. I am urging KA pilots NOT to do the same thing. You at least have some sort of cohesion in your ranks and union. The CX pilots have nothing. If you do nothing then you will slip into the ditch the Cx guys and girls find themselves now. Save yourselves.

[unitedabx]

The CX pilots are on the Titanic and there is one result. KA pilots have the option not to board at Cherbourg. Your choice.

[PNM]

@unitedabx

No doubt.
When you did NOTHING after being deprived of your 13th month, you showed them exactly how weak you are as a pilot body. And now you’ve got the temerity to ask KA pilots to fight your battles for you - it’s a bit pathetic. Leadership needs to start at the top. This means you Senior Captains (whether C&T or not).

(Oh, and I’m sure that if we did something bold and then we were made an example of, you would unite behind us and defend us with the same bravado you showed your own colleagues in 2001) :rolleyes:

I'll bite. What do you suggest we should've done re. 13th month?

[unitedabx]

I'll bite. What do you suggest we should've done re. 13th month?

Walked out immediately.
Your mother told you to stand up to bullies at school didn't she. Same applies here. You still might get hit but usually the bully takes the easy road and goes and bullies someone else. The CX pilots NEVER make a stand. On your next flight ask around. Even the CA's laugh at us. Pathetic bunch of prima donna's.

[MPPCAG]

KA have a one year pay deal which gave us a third year of zero pay rise but which retained our current leave scheme and rostering practices. In terms of pay, this deal expires March 31st next year but our rostering practices was re-signed for 2 years. If the company tamper with our leave scheme (not sure what COS 18 contains in terms of leave) I think they can expect a rather large exodus of pilots to begin.
Changing our leave scheme will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for KA. At that point there won't be any point in staying. Most Expat B pilots are now here by choice, they don't HAVE to be here anymore and many (mainly Australians) already commute, so the company's next move is going to be interesting.

[unitedabx]

KA have a one year pay deal which gave us a third year of zero pay rise but which retained our current leave scheme and rostering practices. In terms of pay, this deal expires March 31st next year but our rostering practices was re-signed for 2 years. If the company tamper with our leave scheme (not sure what COS 18 contains in terms of leave) I think they can expect a rather large exodus of pilots to begin.
Changing our leave scheme will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for KA. At that point there won't be any point in staying. Most Expat B pilots are now here by choice, they don't HAVE to be here anymore and many (mainly Australians) already commute, so the company's next move is going to be interesting.

Your current rostering practices are being superceeded by CMP. CX/KA have already stated the current leave schemes are changing. In CX this has been promised for the last 5 years, so I wouldn't panic over that. Your pay deal expires next March. I would suggest you start tabling meetings now. The CX pay negotiations have been going on for over 2 years without a result and you guys in KA can expect the same treatment next time round. No agreement suits the company down to the ground and you now know their bottom line is COS18. Good luck.

[Air Profit]

We are living/working in an "Alice in Wonderland" bizzaro-world. This weeks Flight International has an editorial, and two articles stating that there is a critical shortage of pilots, and that even Boeing is advocating a serious effort to provide pilot training. The sub headline in the main article, "Shortage of experienced cockpit crew will likely drive up wages at mainline operators into the next decade". I guess we are no longer a mainline operator. Frankly, we are no longer much of anything at all, other than a sick joke. Well, what are WE going to do about it? Most sensibly, we should all now plan on leaving, as this management is incapable of understanding the reality of our profession, and will ultimately take down the airline, and the careers of those foolish enough to stick around.

[Flex88]

Relax, it’l only hurt till the Jellyfish or his sucessor impose E scales.

Anyone who even implies CX will bargain in good faith or better yet bargain at all needs a 25+ year history lesson.
This IS the reality and it’s got the same flavour as “abused wife syndrom”, you just keep coming back for more ‼️

[PNM]

Walked out immediately.
Your mother told you to stand up to bullies at school didn't she. Same applies here. You still might get hit but usually the bully takes the easy road and goes and bullies someone else. The CX pilots NEVER make a stand. On your next flight ask around. Even the CA's laugh at us. Pathetic bunch of prima donna's.
Haha. You're funny. Thanks for the bully advice. Duly noted.

[RAT Management]

Reality is everyone is out for themselves. You know it, I know it, they know it. Even if you started to get unity starting with trainers then captains then FOs as soon as the first real shot was fired the unity would fracture in an instant. So every bad thing that has happened in your career. Every single degradation in condition has been your own fault. Accept it and move on, because this will be old news in a matter of months when the housing deal comes out. I know it, you know it and they know it that there is only one direction the housing is going. Just like this there will be no one person on this forum, in the union or anywhere else that will Challenge it. Trainers will keep on training. SO's will keep on coming. D Scale will be the new A scale in time. Accept it or move on.

[boocs]

I find it completely insane that in a time of major worldwide pilot shortages, the CX ‘Group’ is cutting pilot contract terms and conditions .From a former CX manager, sadly his words ring true.... “market forces”. And has been said previously, if they keep coming (& they will), there will be nothing to stop this rot. Training bans, recruitment bans are important & the time for them is definitely now. No doubt about it. But don’t expect any changes while supply continues to exceed demand. Resignation rates at an all time high? Sure, yes, perhaps. But how many ‘Group’ aircraft have been parked? FFS, CX are doing KA KUL, KHH & TPE Flying of late.
b.

[MPPCAG]

Your current rostering practices are being superceeded by CMP. CX/KA have already stated the current leave schemes are changing. In CX this has been promised for the last 5 years, so I wouldn't panic over that. Your pay deal expires next March. I would suggest you start tabling meetings now. The CX pay negotiations have been going on for over 2 years without a result and you guys in KA can expect the same treatment next time round. No agreement suits the company down to the ground and you now know their bottom line is COS18. Good luck.

KA have not stated the current leave scheme is changing. They advised the DPA that it was CX who wanted rid of it. We are all quite happy with it. It's worked fine for years. Not a good idea to get rid of it if they want industrial peace and roster stability. There have to be reasons to stay. The leave scheme definitely affects pilot retention in KA.

[Clear_sky]

Finally. Good to see we are tightening up the Typhoon policy. That’s the absolute minimum we need to be doing.

[STW]

Nobody is forced to accept COS 18, and no one was forced to accept HKPA.

The real problem is that people join believing there will be improvements later in the career.

It appears some on HKPA haven't understood that.

[CCA]

This is a scare tactic to accept a low ball deal in negotiations don't fall for it!

[unitedabx]

KA have not stated the current leave scheme is changing. They advised the DPA that it was CX who wanted rid of it. We are all quite happy with it. It's worked fine for years. Not a good idea to get rid of it if they want industrial peace and roster stability. There have to be reasons to stay. The leave scheme definitely affects pilot retention in KA.

KA FOP management ( such as it is ) doesn't call the shots anymore. It was the CX DFO who announced the new COS18 for the group and it is the CX DFO who will try to merge the seniority lits and it will be the CX DFO who changes the leave system for the Cathay GROUP airlines. Don't you get it. The KA and CX days are over. It's GROUP airlines now.

[CathayDragonPacific]

Is DPA planning to do anything about this? Is DPA doing anything to protect our future members?
The KA cadets training in FTA and L3, resigned their previous job, only half way in training to find their salary in the future is 30% less, with potentially none of the leave scheme promised...

[Threethirty]

If it's a group then it's a group responsibility, why on earth are you delegating to the KA boys?! Maybe you shouid be getting your respective "unions" to merge if that's the case.

[cannot]

I suspect that there will be significant flooding from the typhoon , if you can’t get to work , you can’t get to work , it’s not from lack of trying

[OneBarWonder]

No 13th month.

No pay/HKPA deal.

4 years of ineffective industrial action.

Now COS18... The current crop of cadets in Adelaide have already accepted the new deal.

Trainers are still training.

The same sycophants will help out during the typhoon.

We are a sorry and pathetic bunch who deserve everything we get.

Or will we grow some balls for once?

Yeah, right.

I’m done. I can’t wait to get out of here.

[MPPCAG]

KA FOP management ( such as it is ) doesn't call the shots anymore. It was the CX DFO who announced the new COS18 for the group and it is the CX DFO who will try to merge the seniority lits and it will be the CX DFO who changes the leave system for the Cathay GROUP airlines. Don't you get it. The KA and CX days are over. It's GROUP airlines now.
Now this is funny. I remember when CX bought KA a lot of CX pilots were screaming 'Don't you get it?! We are separate airlines!'.....

[BubbaJ]

What Tyson said well done!

So many losers on here always wanting someone else AKA KA to make a stand.

STW says it how it is. Kudos to him most of you don’t want to hear it

Anyone concidering joining please please do your homework. I now have absolutely no passion for flying aeroplanes my moral is in the toilet and my work ethic sucks arse. It’s not my character and I’m not proud of it, that’s what you have to
look forward to.

It’s no secret a combined seniority list has been on the cards for years probably should have happened years ago IMHO

Social media is probably the most powerful tool in the shed in today’s world

just sayin

[Kitsune]

What Tyson said well done!

So many losers on here always wanting someone else AKA KA to make a stand.

STW says it how it is. Kudos to him most of you don’t want to hear it

Anyone concidering joining please please do your homework. I now have absolutely no passion for flying aeroplanes my moral is in the toilet and my work ethic sucks arse. It’s not my character and I’m not proud of it, that’s what you have to
look forward to.

It’s no secret a combined seniority list has been on the cards for years probably should have happened years ago IMHO

Social media is probably the most powerful tool in the shed in today’s world

just sayin

Yeah, that social media really has worked as a replacement for a backbone hasn’t it?

[TheGreenDragon]

The DPA are asking for feedback from its members, to produce a question bank to put to company management.
A wee bit pointless, as the COS is inplace.

The days of annual pay rises at KA are done. The COS negotiations for next year are already looking like a damp squib.
The DPA president had a confidential meeting with the bosses. All rather hush hush the result.
However, its looking like zero pay increase for a three year period, starting in April 2019 until March 2022.

[Dragon Pacific]

What a bunch of Prima Donnas. CoS 18 is a fortune to Filipinos and Indos etc. Open the doors to them and watch Cebu, Air Asia etc whinge like a Rex about poaching.

[CathayDragonPacific]

COS18 moves everything from salary to annual leave to the so called pilot's handbook.
Virtually nothing at all anymore is protected by our contractual rights.
Who will be willing to voluntary opt in for this piece of shXt?
For those of you who have a choice, you have been warned not to come!

[morningcoffee]

So we have 4 years of a training ban that has/hasn’t achieved much. I’m not informed enough to be opinionated. One thing is has achieved has been to make those still in training very valuable to the company. It wasn’t that long ago that the company brought in TCC to avoid upgrading more STC and avoid the cost. Can’t argue that the training ban by the rank and file has been great for those still in training. And the trainers feel the AOA isn’t supportive of them, a valid point, yet they would only have leverage via the AOA because of the very training ban they don’t support.
At the same time we have those not in the AOA bemoaning the fact that they’re not getting any (possible) assistance from the AOA during a difficult financial situation with liveaboards.
As a pilot body could we be any more confused?

[Tea time]

The AOA has been a disfunctional body since 99 , it has no teeth because the membership is weak , too many self serving interests . If the pilot body for once stood together and said screw cos18 . This is what we are demanding instead and be prepared to walk it would be done in a couple of weeks . If all the trainers resigned with total support of the members it would add even more pressure work , but in that instance anyone taking a training position would be dealt with and I don’t mean a letter
Sorry I was dreaming that we actually had a Union fit for purpose

[unitedabx]

So we have 4 years of a training ban that has/hasn’t achieved much. I’m not informed enough to be opinionated. One thing is has achieved has been to make those still in training very valuable to the company. It wasn’t that long ago that the company brought in TCC to avoid upgrading more STC and avoid the cost. Can’t argue that the training ban by the rank and file has been great for those still in training. And the trainers feel the AOA isn’t supportive of them, a valid point, yet they would only have leverage via the AOA because of the very training ban they don’t support.
At the same time we have those not in the AOA bemoaning the fact that they’re not getting any (possible) assistance from the AOA during a difficult financial situation with liveaboards.
As a pilot body could we be any more confused?


Totally agree.
United we stand, divided we fall.

[Flex88]

The AOA has been a disfunctional body since 99 , it has no teeth because the membership is weak , too many self serving interests . If the pilot body for once stood together and said screw cos18 . This is what we are demanding instead and be prepared to walk it would be done in a couple of weeks . If all the trainers resigned with total support of the members it would add even more pressure work , but in that instance anyone taking a training position would be dealt with and I don’t mean a letter
Sorry I was dreaming that we actually had a Union fit for purpose

Whose dysfunctional, the self serving AOA or the self serving members (or non-members)?
You get what you vote (or not) for... then you pay the price.

[Avinthenews]

Things have changed in Hong Kong there are thousands of locals who want to join CX/KA now, it's taken decades but Swire knows this, they don't NEED expats anymore local cadets are the future, why do you think the recruitment department has now gone to HR, eventually the pay will equal that of a policeman or fireman. Expats will continue the fight but eventually the union will fold, I'm guessing 10 years and it'll be over.

[Air Profit]

10 years? It's over NOW. No further debate needed. The only people attracted to CX now will be the very young/inexperienced, or the desperate. It seems that is perfectly acceptable to CX. For those here between 28 and 45, you are MAD to stay a day longer if you can get out. CX has now said that C scale is the new A scale, and is a target. Anyone remaining will find their career value, security and stability eroded, threatened and crushed. CX management no long care about experience, safety, legacy, reputation or outcome. It is over. The only question now is who goes down with this sinking ship, and with it any hope for their families and careers.

[unitedabx]

10 years? It's over NOW. No further debate needed. The only people attracted to CX now will be the very young/inexperienced, or the desperate. It seems that is perfectly acceptable to CX. For those here between 28 and 45, you are MAD to stay a day longer if you can get out. CX has now said that C scale is the new A scale, and is a target. Anyone remaining will find their career value, security and stability eroded, threatened and crushed. CX management no long care about experience, safety, legacy, reputation or outcome. It is over. The only question now is who goes down with this sinking ship, and with it any hope for their families and careers.

Agreed a 1000 times over BUT I go to work most days with young pilots saying "it might get better once we get thru this rough patch". They haven't a clue. I don't engage with them anymore. We are all grown ups and make our own choices in life. Taking advice from old grumpies doesn't fit the mix these days. They will soon learn but by then ( I mean now ) it is too late.

[Air Profit]

The "old grumpies" are actually the only ones who can provide perspective as to the never ending lies of this management. They have seen the entire decline of CX, and are best positioned to advise those less experienced as to the reality. It is up to that middle group of 25-45 yrs olds who can have another career (with a real "C)) to leave while they still can. It will NEVER improve at CX. COS18 has stripped away any hope of that (and if not, please explain why?). CX is done, toast, forked, :mad:ed, finished and buried. Only those who can't see reality will try to convince themselves otherwise. Get out NOW. It IS finished.

[SOPS]

I remember as a young FO with (if I remember correctly) around 5000 hours I applied to Cathay. To me it was the "premier" airline in the world to work for. I had travelled to Hong Kong several times with my parents and loved the place ( I still do)...and I really really wanted to work for Cathay. Alas..it was not to be ...the first interview knocked me out because I did not know what engines ( the then brand new 747-300) had..or something along those lines...I knew when I did not know the answers to questions like these, I would be going no further. But I figured...Cathay has the luxury of selecting the best...the best of the best...so if you dont meet the grade , you dont.

Even in the early 2000's as I overnighted in Hong Kong as a now B777 Captain, I still looked at Cathay aircraft and thought....I would love to work for this airline...

What the hell has happened????

[Tea time]

Management pulled the plug out and it went down the drain

[Freehills]

From a pilot’s perspective CX was already finished with the introduction of C-Scale.


Think you mean B scale.

[mrfox]

No, I meant B-Scale.

B-Scale with full housing was still a good package to accumulate enough money/assets for retirement, whereas C-Scale doesn’t.

You are just pretending to be that oblivious right?

[controlledrest]

Trainers have GOT to walk over this. Enough is enough.
Trainers are company men. They take the extra pay and implement the company policies for training and checking. Some of them bad mouth the company on the flight deck, but this is just talk. They keep on doing what the company tells them to. Their silly little letter of complaint will only confirm for the investigators when a jet crashes, that they knew the company has cut too far but they still carried on training, so are culpable.

No point expecting these company men to do anything for the profession.

[unitedabx]

Trainers are company men. They take the extra pay and implement the company policies for training and checking. Some of them bad mouth the company on the flight deck, but this is just talk. They keep on doing what the company tells them to. Their silly little letter of complaint will only confirm for the investigators when a jet crashes, that they knew the company has cut too far but they still carried on training, so are culpable.

No point expecting these company men to do anything for the profession.

Nor can we expect the elected AOA reps to do anything either. So what's your strategy ?

[STW]

The general wrath and fury about COS 18 is not only useless, it also is missing the core of the problem. Without much hope, I will still try to offer an alternative viewpoint.

I am of course fully aware of the minority position I am representing in this forum, so you don't have to share my opinion, nor do I expect it, but if you please could possibly refrain from the usual mechanical insults that would be fantastic. I am neither management, nor do I believe my viewpoint actually supports such an assumption.

The only reason of existence of a company in a free market is to make a profit. There is no other purpose. By definition, any company that doesn't attempt to minimise costs will suffer. It is one of the core principles of business in any free market environment. Paying more than necessary for any goods or services would not only be complacent, it would be unsustainable and therefore irresponsible. If you don't agree, ask yourself: when was the last time you did voluntarily pay more than the market price? And please be careful: paying more than the market price does not mean you bought something expensive or especially precious to you, it means that you paid deliberately more for something you could have bought in the same or comparative quality elsewhere. That is the meaning of paying above the market price. Think about that for a moment, did you ever do that and if so why? Additionally, when you purchase something, anything, do you ever look at the assumed costs of the seller? As an example, imagine you want to buy a car, and the two models you like are different in price, but the same quality. Would you consider to buy the more expensive model because you reckon the production cost ( not the quality) is higher? I will get back to this point later.

All our customers shop around of course, they constantly compare the price and the product, then they make a decision. All shareholders of every company constantly monitor costs, if they or some consultant identify misspending the management will have to explain it. This is part of the " invisible hand" system immortalised by Adam Smith, it is an inseparable and vital part of our society, our way of life. So how do you know if costs are too high? What is the benchmark? The benchmark is indirectly what competitors pay, but more precisely it is what is required to get the goods or services you want. I assume COS 18 is deemed to fulfil that requirement by its creators. I personally do not know if that is true, nor do I care much, the market will decide, not the managers nor me. In other words, if you have the opinion the price CX is willing to pay is not enough you can sit back and relax, if you are right time will tell. I want to repeat what i said above: only a company that cares about costs will survive. I personally want CX to survive, not because I like it so much here, but because I would dislike it more at HK Express or China Southern. You might have a different opinion on that, but chances are that you too want Cathay to survive or you would not be much interested in this topic in the first place. If you don’t like Cathay much anymore, you think you can get more money elsewhere and you don’t care about its survival, then there is logically no other solution then to leave. If you think COS 18 is not the market price then there is also no argument, we just need to wait and see. In both cases you can stop reading now.


I can only think of three possible arguments against paying market prices.

First, you think you would get better pilots for more money and this is somehow important to you. This is difficult to discuss, because the quality of a pilot is not easy to quantify and safety statistics are by definition only looking backwards. I think the absolute pay is not very relevant, and I also think it is perfectly ok to employ cadets with no experience and train them on the job. I don’t see any differences regarding motivation between a new S/O and an old CPT, actually I see more frustration and less interest for aviation in older colleagues, myself included. Other airlines in HK pay even less and don’t fall out of the sky either. And even if they fall out of the sky, unless it becomes are regular habit the consumer doesn’t care. hard to swallow, I know, but the odds of dying in an aircraft are just too small to be factor anymore. If you differ in this point, I can’t really argue, except that I would point out that obviously CX has a different viewpoint and it is very unlikely this will change, and also that it is an industry-wide practise to employ cadets. My assumption is that the safety argument is not the real reason for all the excitement, but if it is honestly your main concern, fair enough, but remember this next time you book full fare with a low-cost carrier for yourself please.

Second, you think it is unfair or even a disgrace, because HK is so expensive or the job bears such a big responsibility, you think it is making the “unborn” pay , you feel it is a “race to the bottom” etc and anyway soon after joining people will leave again. This is a very common and (very ) emotional argument I hear on the line and read in this forum, and I have not a clue why anyone would be concerned about that. If you think the pay is not fair or justified, then don’t accept it. Simple. Everyone starting this career now, in 2018, must be aware of the clear downward trend of the industry. I don’t know the individual goals of any cadet,their financial background, their alternatives, nothing. I don’t know what a HKPA recipient was planning or thinking when he or she joined. I have empathy, but my position is very clear: when i joined I never expected an improvement, I knew the trend was against me, I knew A scale was gone. I don’t judge anyone on HKPA, but at the same time I can’t take any responsibility. As a matter of fact, I don’t see how I even should be able to vote on their package. Why should I? I don’t know anything about them and I give them the benefit of the doubt, I assume they knew what they were doing, had sound reasons back then when they joined. Now, again, if they misjudged the cost of HK, housing, quality of life etc, then so be it, it is part of life. If the company suffers from attrition, so be it. You make good and bad decisions, but these decisions are up to the individual, no company can make that decision for you and pay more just because they think it is “fair”. Most of us, myself included, changed jobs multiple times, simply because it didn’t work out as planned. There is no shame in that.

Third, and I strongly assume this is actually the real reason behind the anger and opposition, you think it has implications on you, on your contract. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn’t, nobody knows for sure. I would argue that Cathay has seen a many pay scales and e.g. A scale died of natural extinction. If they could or if they can cut our pay they will do so. It is totally irrelevant if at the time of decision other pay scales do already exist. You can create a new one anytime.

COS 18 is not an independent decision by some evil manager, it is a reflection of the industry. Again, if you differ here, then please check the numbers of our direct competitors, and see above. Some think that it is a “pilots market” ( strangely even after a considerable period of unemployment), but I think the truth is that most of us know that we would suffer if we would change jobs, at least financially. I know I would. It is understandable that this puts us in a precarious position and the fact that since decades the very same people complain about CX in this very forum additionally testifies the sad reality: it is very hard to leave CX . After having invested so much, with a cruel seniority system, all those sacrifices, all the humiliation in training etc etc. I feel you, and I feel the same. But a new pay scale is not the problem: the problem is the unrealistic expectation of an improvement of your conditions after you joined.

The answer can’t be to get distracted and emotionally wound up if the company is adjusting prices to match the market for new joiners. It is in our interest to have an employer that cares about costs, and i am not joking. Yes, I know, fuel hedging. But what does that change? If anything at all it enforces my point, profit is in our interest, and to achieve profit costs need to be competitive. Just one example: if all HKPA staff would be on B scale that would translate into about 1 Billion ( and counting) additional cost. And yet many do see introduction of C scale as a watershed moment. I do too, but for the better.

It is a totally different story to cut wages for existing staff, cutting packages of those already committed would destroy trust of all employees and lead inevitably to harsh reactions, simple because of what is at stake. There are legal issues, trainers would actually be directly affected and react, nobody would join and be able to do any planning, etc. But to offer a pay package X and to see if there are enough takers is part of our economy. I don’t blame CX for it, I don’t like it, but I understand it.

I fear we are letting ourselves distracted, sleepwalking into the abyss, by not focusing. What is really important right now and here? Is it really the possibility of SO’s joining in 2019 not staying until retirement?

[OK4Wire]

By "AOA reps" I guess you mean the elected GC.

Trust me, they will do whatever the membership wants them to do.

Take an informal poll next time you have a chance, United, and ask how many of your fellow workers are actually willing to increase the industrial pressure?

[unitedabx]

By "AOA reps" I guess you mean the elected GC.

Trust me, they will do whatever the membership wants them to do.

Take an informal poll next time you have a chance, United, and ask how many of your fellow workers are actually willing to increase the industrial pressure?

"They will do whatever the membership wants them to do "!!!!!!!!!!!
The membership want leadership not sheep. If they can't offer some form of guidance and leadership then resign and make way for others willing to take up the fight. This is not the time for well wishing pen pushers. This is a time for action men/women.

[Dilbert68]

The trainers have the real power here. They could resign from training and bring the company to its knees but instead they will happily train their D-scale replacements. The ones that don't have their heads buried in the sand have them shoved up managements a$$es.
WAKE UP!!! You are going to get a sign or be fired contract within the next 5 years when the numbers look favorable to the company, just as they did in 1999.

You trainers have to be the most selfish or stupid people in the company.

[okm]

Spot on Dilbert.

[The FUB]

Guess you're a trainer in waiting Dilbert

[Dilbert68]

No FUB, I have too much self respect to stoop that low. You keep on training though, I'm sure all your friends and relatives are very impressed.

[Freehills]

So, so far the view is:
KA pilots should do something
Trainers should do something
GC should do something

[unitedabx]

So, so far the view is:
KA pilots should do something
Trainers should do something
GC should do something

The HKAOA and DPA should do something and yet not a constructive word from either. The typhoon has passed boys. Time to actually come out of your dugouts and do something for the members who elected you.

[GMEDX]

The HKAOA and DPA should do something and yet not a constructive word from either. The typhoon has passed boys. Time to actually come out of your dugouts and do something for the members who elected you.
Do what about what? We accepted the 0% and kept our RPA. COS18 is coming whether we like it or not. Not much appetite for doing anything in KA.

[YeahNahYeah]

STW, how many stock options did you get, and when do they vest?

[TurningFinalRWY36]

STW pay and conditions have changed, although my COS has not there has not been a pay rise due to inflation in years so that is a reduction in pay. Conditions have changed, staff travel and rostering in particular, just ask the 747 guys. So I don't know how you can come on here and claim things have not changed

[Staggers]

No FUB, I have too much self respect to stoop that low. You keep on training though, I'm sure all your friends and relatives are very impressed.


Im sure you’ll keeping turning up for your PCs so spare us the hypocrisy.

[tithybo]

The trainers have the real power here. They could resign from training and bring the company to its knees but instead they will happily train their D-scale replacements. The ones that don't have their heads buried in the sand have them shoved up managements a$$es.
WAKE UP!!! You are going to get a sign or be fired contract within the next 5 years when the numbers look favorable to the company, just as they did in 1999.

You trainers have to be the most selfish or stupid people in the company.

Your comment is one of the reason nothing will ever change in Cx ( and also one of the reason why I am so happy to have left Cx). The day you will realise you have to stop barking and relying on somebody else to fight for you, maybe something will change... new joiners, trainers are not responsible, every single pilot inside the company is responsible for what’s happening, because nobody is actually ready for a war.. because a war involve casualties..The day you will organise with your friends a massive global strike with the help of AOA ( or without if you are a sufficient number) and take the risk to be fired PERSONALY, because you think the fight is worth the risk, then something will be achieved. But please stop telling people what they should do, and act. Because if you don’t go on strike for what you apparently believe in, then you will never be able to defend the trainers if they fight for you and get into trouble....
but hey, it has been years we hear the same mad dogs all night long, and everybody is at work quietly in the morning...we get used to it, and the funny thing is sadness turns into entertainment..

Anyway, I really wish you all the best for the future, and feel sorry for the attitude Cx still holds.

[JMock]

STW is on the money.

and my mates at HKA are watching. The consensus re schooling allowance, for example, screws both company’s pilots.

it’s a dog eat dog world.

[AtoBsafely]

STW,

I dont know which market you are looking at - if I went to another airline at the same rank I would be getting a 20% pay rise.

When I started at Cathay, our pay way benchmarked to lead other Oneworld peers - BA, Qantas, American. Then to match them. Then it was compared to “other major airlines”. Now we are supposed to believe that our real competition is AirAsia and Ryanair?

As for a pay rise to cover inflation, that would be great! I’d happily accept going back to the pay scale that I joined on if it was corrected for the inflation over the intervening years. I’m sure that HKPA could also easily be indexed to the rental market too. Now that would definitely reduce the decimation of the pilot body.

[JMock]

but the shareholders Ato are unconcerned about your salary sliding south as long as pilots keep applying. From anywhere.

read STW again.

[AtoBsafely]

The job I’m interviewing for. I’ve had enough of this place!

[Below the glide]

Join Us (http://careers.hongkongairlines.com/930/cw/en/filter/?search-keyword=&category=cockpit%20crew&job-mail-subscribe-privacy=agree)

[morningcoffee]

Let me think, FedEx, UPS, Delta, American, United....
I’ll just take the first one as an example. Do you actually have any idea how difficult it is to get into Fedex? An employee can sponsor one applicant every 10 years and you ain't getting a look in the door without a sponsor. Turning up with shiny 777 time isn’t really much help in the big picture, sorry to say.
Which brings me to point #2, looking at the hourly pay at $304 for a year 15 captain at FedEx and then thinking that’s 16 years down the road from when you joined isn’t quite correct either.
None of the USA carriers mentioned are getting you into the LHS in a widebody in under 25 years. Though I’d love to hear if that’s changed.
Point #3, guys can do CC all they want if it makes them feel good, it’s a minor inconvenience to the company with all the new trainers joining and the people helping out in every way shape and form. I’d argue these days it’s more of an inconvenience to the employee than to the company, but it’s all we have. No criticism of the GC intended.

[Slasher1]

I’ll just take the first one as an example. Do you actually have any idea how difficult it is to get into Fedex? An employee can sponsor one applicant every 10 years and you ain't getting a look in the door without a sponsor. Turning up with shiny 777 time isn’t really much help in the big picture, sorry to say.
Which brings me to point #2, looking at the hourly pay at $304 for a year 15 captain at FedEx and then thinking that’s 16 years down the road from when you joined isn’t quite correct either.
None of the USA carriers mentioned are getting you into the LHS in a widebody in under 25 years. Though I’d love to hear if that’s changed.
Point #3, guys can do CC all they want if it makes them feel good, it’s a minor inconvenience to the company with all the new trainers joining and the people helping out in every way shape and form. I’d argue these days it’s more of an inconvenience to the employee than to the company, but it’s all we have. No criticism of the GC intended.

Hmmmmmm.....none of my colleagues seem to have had a great deal of trouble hiring on with FedEx, UPS, and other majors.

And what is the important thing is they are really really happy and excited about their job again.

[controlledrest]

We must roster in strict senority. If we don't the company will use the CMP to minimise costs on a minute by minute basis using the cheapest pilot.

They will roster the COS18 sods low hours so they are desperate for hours (money) and will work G days, when fatigued and when sick. Do you want to work with a fatigued / sick low hour wonder?

Roster stability will be reduced for all of us. Fairshare gives no clarity and wont be fair.

[positionalpor]

Don’t worry CX management will realise in few years what they have done and will change course. As per usual CX is behind times. CX is where the US companies were 10 years ago as far as employees appreciation and value.
Also, CX supports LGBT community but DO NOT support traditional family value otherwise it will realise that NO ONE can start a family with this salaries in HK.
Meditate on it.

[mngmt mole]

Many of the more senior pilots tried to warn everyone that the only system that works in the long run is "strict seniority". Many of you replied that we were being "selfish" and that as we were senior, we were being self-serving. Well, now you can see the main reason for strict seniority: with a whole new, separate COS, they can use the non-seniority rostering system (which we chose) to effectively provide more efficient rosters for the COS18 pilots (to get their hours up), and give us the remaining rubbish. We've done it to ourselves, because we wouldn't adopt the only proven system in civil aviation. I hate to say I told you so....

[Avinthenews]

Wait till type transfers are tweaked in only the way CX can to move COS18 crew where they want.

If anything is achieved by CC it must be

TYPE TRANSFERS IN STRICT SENIORITY including crew being able to downgrade for LIFESTYLE choice!

[mngmt mole]

CMP and COS18 will be looked back on as the moment in time that CX died as a career airline for pilots. We can argue all we like, that will be shown to be fact in hindsight. Its time for anyone with hopes of a viable career to wake up to reality and make a move as soon as possible. It is over.

[unitedabx]

Wait till type transfers are tweaked in only the way CX can to move COS18 crew where they want.

If anything is achieved by CC it must be

TYPE TRANSFERS IN STRICT SENIORITY including crew being able to downgrade for LIFESTYLE choice!

The first example of fleet transfer abuse will be current 777DCP staying on type for his command. Everyone else has had to move the A fleet but not our James.

[CaliforniaPilot]

None of the USA carriers mentioned are getting you into the LHS in a widebody in under 25 years. Though I’d love to hear if that’s changed.


It has at FedEx. LHS widebody is half that time per the last system bid. Of course, FedEx's fleet skews toward the heavy side. LHS on the 757 in under 5.

[VR-HFX]

COSPLAY18 in all its glory, brought to you by the Jellyfish and his partner the Ayatollah.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/cx_ka_magt_4ea122ec5b041c586165f305f8173d2f8714399d.jpg

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/702x960/cos18_3245eff3ee13184e1bf73c7eeecf546c81260260.jpg

[CX ex]

There is a lot more to a career than the time it takes to get to the left seat.

I’ll also point out that upgrading at the US carriers (and Some EU) is often delayed by choice. A very senior FO with their choice of schedules and fleet (because of the seniority system) almost always has a significantly better schedule and in some cases better pay than a junior captain.

[DropKnee]

It has at FedEx. LHS widebody is half that time per the last system bid. Of course, FedEx's fleet skews toward the heavy side. LHS on the 757 in under 5.
Who cares about the seat. It’s about the $$$ and lifestyle. CX can not touch the yanks.

[gretzky99]

...provide more efficient rosters for the COS18 pilots (to get their hours up), and give us the remaining rubbish...

I would have thought it would be the opposite actually. Those on COS 99/08 will get absolutely flogged, as we basically get paid the same regardless of hours (obviously no overtime though), whilst those on COS 18 will take a second 20% pay cut to fly substantially less than the target.

[controlledrest]

They will work the roster monthly and in real time for min cost. It wont be fair share, it won't be reasonable, it will only be about cost. Strict seniority will be the only way to see what is happening and call them on it. Fair share will only exist in name only.

Crew Control have a long history of manipulating the roster in breach of the Rostering Agreement. CMP will empower the company to really start screwing us around. Its not about us.

[Dan Winterland]

Exactly. COS18 pilots will not be making their hours if it costs too much. This is exactly what happens in the airlines which use this model. They will use the cheaper option first and anyone joining under COS18 needs to understand that they will probably not be making the money they have been told to expect.

[MainDude]

Just curious: What's the chance that Cathay will give the Singapore Airlines (SQ) game a go?

Around 2012, SQ sacked 76 expat captains. The background at the time, was something along the lines that a new "local contract" was introduced without school or housing allowance. No requirement for anyone on expat contracts to sign the new contract. Word then quietly got around that it would be a smart idea to sign if you wanted to keep the job. Those coming from 3rd world countries generally signed the local contract. By the time it was clear that anyone who hadn't signed would be chopped, the new contract was no longer on the table. SQ 76'ers of 2012 were the last ones to be let go. I might not have the facts 100% here, but it's the general gist of the story.

[unitedabx]

CX will not make the same mistake as they did with the 49'ers. It was a massive PR defeat for the company worldwide which sadly had deadly consequences for 3 of our colleagues. Whilst you could argue CX Management does'nt learn from it's mistakes. That is one mistake they will never repeat. SAS is grounding flights due lack of crew. Norwegian has just added a sign on bonus for all type rated pilots. Jet2 will offer a type rating for free and BA are about to embark on their most ambitious recruiting drive in a decade. China needs 100,000 new pilots in the next 5 years and Europe 250,000 in the next 20. But only CX knows this is all wrong. We actually need less well paid pilots, kids to fill seats and careers lasting 5 years at best. Everyone else has got it wrong.

PS Sorry for the spelling mistakes ( it's obviously catching ).

[Foxdeux]

As an outsider can someone give me a quick summary as to what COS18 is?

[22N114E]

See post #135

[Foxdeux]

See post #135

Thanks Mate. So is this the proverbial E scale?

[Foxdeux]

See post #135

Should it not say "..which will enable productivity targets to BE more easily met....."

[Yonosoy Marinero]

How dumb do you have to be exactly to sign into a productivity-based paycheck with a company that retains complete control over your productivity?

Enjoy your 70% salary during the next downturn...

[TheGreenDragon]

SAS is grounding flights due lack of crew. Norwegian has just added a sign on bonus for all type rated pilots. Jet2 will offer a type rating for free
.

Companies still don’t want to typerate. A CX B777 10000 hour captain can apply to easyjet but they will pay for the $hitty 320 rating.

SAS are parking planes as they now have SAIL.
A low cost op from UK or Spain. Pay? €5000 for a 320 captain. Need to be rated. After tax= £3500/ month basic. For a captain. WTF.

So crew will still join on COS 18. It looks attractive.
Especially for Cathay Dragon where a command can be had in 18 months. You will still earn 3X that of a loco skipper in Europe. But of course the devil is in the
cost of living detail . And most guys don’t really do their research in this respect, do they?

[Slasher1]

As I’ve said one looks at raw numbers at one’s own peril. Especially if overly optimistic about a plan to operate on the pessimistic side of pay. This becomes important in that we seem now to be on a regional or low cost carrier compensation plan. With central planning (ie not involving input from you) rostering.

What you need to make depends entirely on where you live. Numbers in isolation mean nothing. It’s doubly worse if you’re not from the place you’re going and have no idea what expenses anyone has there. Or even what stuff costs.

Perhaps one could live like a king in some parts of rural Asia on USD 60k a year. Someone might be able to live quite well on 60K a year or so in some areas of the US with a decent house and yard. In metro San Fran or New York it might take 5 to 10 times this (perhaps even more) for an equivalent standard of living.

Hong Kong is San Fran on steroids.

Choose wisely.

[BlunderBus]

Well written synopsis STW. Only thing I can’t stomach is the method in which they implement it.
49’ers case in point. I don’t much appreciate the outright lying or reneging on promises either ... why make them at all?

[Liam Gallagher]

Join the dots people, COS18 is what "localisation" looks like. Most companies in HK are far further ahead in "localisation" than CX, and that's not because of any inherent racism, but because of the lack of HKATPL-holders "flippin burgers" in HK, waiting for their break into the airlines. Cathay is just following the HK trend as best they can.

Expat terms finished in 2008/9 and now a package solely pitched at local cadets has been introduced. Bases are withering on the vine and with a 5% resignation rate (mainly non-indigenous HK), it will only be 5-10 years before CX/ KA aircraft will be piloted almost exclusively by indigenous HK pilots. With those approaching 55 on COS99 being offered COS18, those desperate unfortunates will continue the trend of training their replacements (doh!!).

Take "localisation" and then overlay double SO everywhere, coupled with the global shift to pilot training/licensing pitched solely at multi-crew licensing and the abandonment of the need for any experience in military or GA/feeder prior to sitting in the front of a wide-body, COS18 makes perfect financial sense.

On the company's spreadsheets, the 5-10 year forecasts must look rosie, no expat terms, no EFP, limited increments, limited education allowance, limited PFund. All this must equate to annual savings in the order of $2,000,000,000, which will go straight into management bonuses and the shareholders' pockets... Locals are by nature compliant and the HKAOA/DPA will merely be a vehicle to arrange cheap insurance (if they are not already:sad:) Time to celebrate a win- Gin and tonics all round (but not you pilots, as you are subject to random testing;))

What could possibly go wrong with this plan??

[Cant_Believe_it]

Join the dots people, COS18 is what "localisation" looks like. Most companies in HK are far further ahead in "localisation" than CX, and that's not because of any inherent racism, but because of the lack of HKATPL-holders "flippin burgers" in HK, waiting for their break into the airlines. Cathay is just following the HK trend as best they can.

Expat terms finished in 2008/9 and now a package solely pitched at local cadets has been introduced. Bases are withering on the vine and with a 5% resignation rate (mainly non-indigenous HK), it will only be 5-10 years before CX/ KA aircraft will be piloted almost exclusively by indigenous HK pilots. With those approaching 55 on COS99 being offered COS18, those desperate unfortunates will continue the trend of training their replacements (doh!!).

Take "localisation" and then overlay double SO everywhere, coupled with the global shift to pilot training/licensing pitched solely at multi-crew licensing and the abandonment of the need for any experience in military or GA/feeder prior to sitting in the front of a wide-body, COS18 makes perfect financial sense.

On the company's spreadsheets, the 5-10 year forecasts must look rosie, no expat terms, no EFP, limited increments, limited education allowance, limited PFund. All this must equate to annual savings in the order of $2,000,000,000, which will go straight into management bonuses and the shareholders' pockets... Locals are by nature compliant and the HKAOA/DPA will merely be a vehicle to arrange cheap insurance (if they are not already:sad:) Time to celebrate a win- Gin and tonics all round (but not you pilots, as you are subject to random testing;))

What could possibly go wrong with this plan??

This is exactly why HKAOA and DPA need to start fighting back by escalating what they are doing.
The contract degradation will only get worse.
Transferring all contract terms from COS to handbook is only step 1.
By comforting you that COS18 doesn't apply to you, they are trying to make existing pilots turn blind eye on COS18.
Once that is up and running, with enough COS18 pilots in the game, guess who will be attacked next?
Time to stop fantasising in your little worlds and look further.

[Dragon Pacific]

“The Company may appoint any Officer to be a Check and Trainer.”
The above sentence in CoS 18 appears to suggest how they intend getting around the training ban in the future.

[Avinthenews]

“The Company may appoint any Officer to be a Check and Trainer.”
The above sentence in CoS 18 appears to suggest how they intend getting around the training ban in the future.

Read that as first OFFICER or second OFFICER, each to train their own!

Can't wait for the

"I'm a trainer"

"Really?"

"Yes, I'm a base training second officer or BTSO as it's known, I failed a captain on his line check the other day"

This is the type of ego they will be looking for unfortunately.

Good guys/girls will see it for what it is, but who knows how many won't.

[Flex88]

“The Company may appoint any Officer to be a Check and Trainer.”
The above sentence in CoS 18 appears to suggest how they intend getting around the training ban in the future.


I have it from good sources that the term "officer" is being amended as we speak. GMF had wanted that to read "Brushwinger" from the get go however it had been overlooked.

Bruswinger, must have 200 hrs experience of looking at airplanes.

[Dragon Pacific]

I also read it to mean that you can be appointed to be a trainer whether you like it or not.
i.e. Press-ganged into training.

[Starbear]

mmm wonder why company were less than keen to publish COS 18 in the first instance?

[Slasher1]

Aspiring young brushwings galore
Pos eighteen got them in thru the door
Stuck in dingy old basements
They now train their replacements
Whining that they’re all sick, old, and poor

[mngmt mole]

Wow, is this company beyond saving or what? I can't comprehend how we have fallen this low, but it is a fact: CX is dead to the hopes of professional pilots. Get out while you still can, before the next downturn, before the divorce papers, before the Dr telling your your child is sick and won't get better, before you find you can't escape. Get out now.

[Will IB Fayed]

Get out now.
Have you quit?

[Flex88]

Read this attachment and think again.

#CXit

[DropKnee]

Have you quit?
Yes, I have!!

[VforVENDETTA]

My mission each time I sign in is to cost much more more money in operational cost than neccessary. That means I'm out t fukkkkkk the share holders. For every penny company aims to save with these paperless apps etc, I make sure I spend ten times more than average. Good luck to cx and investors. I do the math and for every dollar cx thinks its saving I make sure I cost ten times as much on each and every flight. So keep introducing apps you morons on third floor.

[unitedabx]

My mission each time I sign in is to cost much more more money in operational cost than neccessary. That means I'm out t fukkkkkk the share holders. For every penny company aims to save with these paperless apps etc, I make sure I spend ten times more than average. Good luck to cx and investors. I do the math and for every dollar cx thinks its saving I make sure I cost ten times as much on each and every flight. So keep introducing apps you morons on third floor.

Tips for the snowflakes ?