View Full Version : Correct position of feet on rudder pedals at landing. (Airbus)
sabenaboy
27th Aug 2018, 07:28
I saw a Youtube video of an Airbus landing where you can clearly see that the captain moves his feet up on the pedals only a few seconds AFTER touchdown.
To me that means that he wasn't ready for instinctive (differential) braking at touchdown. He obviously only had his toes on the bottom part of the rudder at that time, far away from the brakes.
When somebody makes a remark about it in the comments, his reply is "There's autobrakes on this aircraft."
You can see it in the video below, where you can see his knees go up at 5:53 secs into the movie. ( he doesn't only do it in this movie. I obeserved in his other Youtube movies as well.)
I'm really amazed to see a captain land like this. Your thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dRG1N2DUPM
goeasy
27th Aug 2018, 09:03
All looks quite normal to me... You dont want feet near brakes before wheel spin up. Even with autobrake, you need to be ready for manual braking as well.
There is a growing armada of pilots lacking the fine motor skill of placing a foot on a pedal without pressing it. They happily ignore the fact that uncle Airbus is "selling" the rudder pedals with a toe stop so the pilot is ready to hit the brakes whenever needed and wait for their "oh sugar" moment when they have to land in a gusty crosswind. They'll never learn.
On amore serious note: landing "feet up" is impossible on a Boeing and nigh to impossible on a Cessna, many instructors project this knowledge to an Airbus without questioning the logic. The tendency to buy a typerating from a TRTO, not from the manufacturer, helps to spread fake news and wrong techniques.
sabenaboy
27th Aug 2018, 10:24
'My' Airbus FCTM states: 'The flight crew must have their feet in a position so that full rudder deflection combined with full braking, even differential, can be applied instinctively and without delay'
Indeed, the airbus rudder pedals are designed to position your feet on the pedals, applying rudder with the heels and the toes ready to brake. That's what I've been taught as soon as I transitioned from the 737 to the 320.
One should indeed ask how else you can be ready to brake if something happens at or just after touchdown? Something like a burst tire, locked brake, nose wheel fault (off center). All unlikely events, but if it should happen, having your feet on the pedals, ready to brake (differentially) might be the difference between a non-event or making the world headlines.
but if it should happen, having your feet on the pedals, ready to brake (differentially) might be the difference between a non-event or making the world headlines.
Ever tried walking just using your heels? Difficult and for some, quite painful.. In an emergency there may be a reason for deliberately landing with toes poised on top of brakes while trying to steer the rudder with using your heels. But totally unnecessary for normal day to day landings.
FlightDetent
27th Aug 2018, 14:02
Judd: your objection is noted, but to double-check: Are you thinking A320-ish?
sabenaboy
27th Aug 2018, 14:30
Ever tried walking just using your heels? Difficult and for some, quite painful.. In an emergency there may be a reason for deliberately landing with toes poised on top of brakes while trying to steer the rudder with using your heels. But totally unnecessary for normal day to day landings.
Well, contrary to walking on your heels, having your feet on the pedals ready to brake is no problem whatsoever on the Airbus. It does not feel awkward at all. I suppose you're not on the Airbus?
Escape Path
27th Aug 2018, 17:24
I don't understand how the whole "heels up/down" thing is still a question. Even my previous types (DHC-6 and -8) had pedals designed so you could actuate brakes or rudder independently. It's poor self awareness/lack of motor skills if you can't keep the toes off the brakes while using the rudder.
To me it all comes down to this: you want to have full control of the airplane in the least amount of time so you can apply corrections should it be needed. I've never experienced any problems on any type by placing my feet heels up on the pedals. And yes, current type is A320
stilton
29th Aug 2018, 08:53
Can’t speak for Airbus
Boeing and Douglas it’s heels on the
floor unless braking
CaptainMongo
29th Aug 2018, 22:46
Ever tried walking just using your heels? Difficult and for some, quite painful.. In an emergency there may be a reason for deliberately landing with toes poised on top of brakes while trying to steer the rudder with using your heels. But totally unnecessary for normal day to day landings.
Normal day to day, a very nice world, if one could live in it....
Nice to plan when you have an emergency, but what about the one you didn’t plan for....
We aren’t paid for day to day operations, we are paid for when things go wrong, are you ready for when things go wrong?
misd-agin
30th Aug 2018, 16:57
All looks quite normal to me... You dont want feet near brakes before wheel spin up. Even with autobrake, you need to be ready for manual braking as well.
I've landed with my feet 'up' on the pedals for 36 years. Shorts 3-30 will make you consider that technique. It's been no problem, heels for the rudders with foot flexed backwards. To transfer to braking is as easy as relaxing the front muscles at the front of your calves. It's much easier, and faster, than sliding your foot up the rudder pedals, especially in strong or gusty crosswinds.
misd-agin
30th Aug 2018, 16:58
There is a growing armada of pilots lacking the fine motor skill of placing a foot on a pedal without pressing it. They happily ignore the fact that uncle Airbus is "selling" the rudder pedals with a toe stop so the pilot is ready to hit the brakes whenever needed and wait for their "oh sugar" moment when they have to land in a gusty crosswind. They'll never learn.
On amore serious note: landing "feet up" is impossible on a Boeing and nigh to impossible on a Cessna, many instructors project this knowledge to an Airbus without questioning the logic. The tendency to buy a typerating from a TRTO, not from the manufacturer, helps to spread fake news and wrong techniques.
18,000+ hrs in Boeing's with my feet 'up'. Didn't know I was doing the impossible. Your post is contributing to "fake news and wrong techniques." You can land feet 'up' in all the aircraft I've flown, including Boeing's and Cessna's, By using the required techniques many things in flying, or life, can suddenly go from impossible to easy.
misd-agin
30th Aug 2018, 17:06
Ever tried walking just using your heels? Difficult and for some, quite painful.. In an emergency there may be a reason for deliberately landing with toes poised on top of brakes while trying to steer the rudder with using your heels. But totally unnecessary for normal day to day landings.
Most people walk with their heels touching first and then transition to the ball and then toes of their foot. Just like landing with your feet in the 'up' position. It's not that tough.
Uplinker
1st Sep 2018, 08:35
We were instructed to keep heels on the floor during take-off, (Airbus FBW), i.e. steer with our toes on the bottom of the pedals. This was I believe to avoid accidentally disconnecting the autobrake during an RTO.
On approach to land, the Airbus conducts a brake test, so it checks there are no locked brakes before landing.
What circumstances would require one to apply differential braking on the point of touchdown? (given that you will be well above Vmcg at this point).
RVF750
1st Sep 2018, 10:52
I'm feet up as well. Relatively new to the Boeing, so I do brief that I might disconnect RTO and manually brake in an emergency, but flame me if you want- I don't see any problem with that. I can modulate as required depending on what the problems was. Then again, I've flown tail draggers and turboprops so my fine motor skills are not a problem....
We were instructed to keep heels on the floor during take-off, (Airbus FBW There is no official position on this by airbus. Both feet up or down is left to personal preference. However with heels on ground in case of engine failure at low speed on wet runway with unfavorable cross wind it takes some doing to apply full rudder and differential braking especially on aircraft like B747 classic where nose wheel was not connected to rudders. Feet up during takeoff roll requires a flat pressure on rudders more towards heels. It's not difficult. I have done it all my life.
Airbus does have an official position: Feet fully on the pedals.
Check the Airbus WIN application in the APP store and then specifically the video “preventing runway excursion”. There is a very clear depiction of what they recommend.
Edit: roughly 13m50 sec in the video, the recommendation is position 1.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/750x563/0ec1ab64_3b4b_4a03_bbfc_c2e99bb6289f_1f6b9a50b6135510accaad6 6e46414efff534b5f.jpeg
TolTol
1st Sep 2018, 15:26
Had a very experienced TRE (“over 10,000 hours in sim”) for my last check and he taught us to keep heals on the floor - “that’s why Airbus put that shinny metal floor there”. I guess everyone has a different opinion.
Airbus does have an official position: Feet fully on the pedals. PGA in the same airbus win app see the video "What About Seating Position" between 2:45 to 2:50 you will hear Yann Lardet Director training standards telling you that they don't have a definite position on this. Although as I said before I have always kept feet up even on takeoff.
stilton
3rd Sep 2018, 05:29
There is no official position on this by airbus. Both feet up or down is left to personal preference. However with heels on ground in case of engine failure at low speed on wet runway with unfavorable cross wind it takes some doing to apply full rudder and differential braking especially on aircraft like B747 classic where nose wheel was not connected to rudders. Feet up during takeoff roll requires a flat pressure on rudders more towards heels. It's not difficult. I have done it all my life.
Our 747 Classics definitely has nosewheel
steering through the rudder pedals
Perhaps these were earlier models you
describe ?
Perhaps these were earlier models you
describe ? Yes! We had B747 200 series whch didn't have rudder connected to nose wheel. It came later with 300 and 400 series.
chocolateracer
3rd Sep 2018, 16:21
There is no official position on this by airbus. Both feet up or down is left to personal preference. However with heels on ground in case of engine failure at low speed on wet runway with unfavorable cross wind it takes some doing to apply full rudder and differential braking especially on aircraft like B747 classic where nose wheel was not connected to rudders. Feet up during takeoff roll requires a flat pressure on rudders more towards heels. It's not difficult. I have done it all my life.
My FCTM does have a policy on this.....
"The flight crew must have their feet in a position so that full rudder deflection combined with full braking, even differential, can be applied instinctively and without delay."
My reading of this is feet on the pedal, not resting halfway up. WITHOUT delay.
Idle Thrust
3rd Sep 2018, 18:49
Retired for 17 years, I'll wade in late here. When I converted to the A-320 in the '80s I found the design of the rudder pedals rather odd, all previous types (see my profile) were configured to allow heels on the floor but one could easily press the upper portion to achieve braking without raising the heels. The A-320 forced you to place your feet at a shallower angle and to have them in position to apply brakes the heels had to be removed from the floor. To do this while still in the air seemed to be inviting a landing with brake(s) on, especially in a crosswind - it felt weird, I never adjusted to it and continued to keep heels on the floor until shifting position to apply brakes on the landing rollout. Auto brake use was SOP so this was never really an issue. I was aware that Airbus recommended otherwise but my employer did not require it.
What has not been mentioned above is that the A-340 and subsequently the A-330 had a much more conventional pedal design similar to that of Boeing, Douglas and others. A great improvement, one of several refinements to the Airbus product and I have always assumed it was in response to negative pilot input on the 320 design. I guess it was too late to retrofit the large A-320 fleet - or maybe intransigent pride played a part.
sabenaboy
4th Sep 2018, 13:07
My FCTM does have a policy on this.....
"The flight crew must have their feet in a position so that full rudder deflection combined with full braking, even differential, can be applied instinctively and without delay."
My reading of this is feet on the pedal, not resting halfway up. WITHOUT delay.
Well, that's exactly what's written in 'my' FCTM (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10234271). I don't think we fly for the same company.
I just spent two days in the sim. I had to abort a takeoff right after TOGA was set. I managed to keep it on the 30 m wide runway without too much trouble with differential braking. And I had a tyre burst on touchdown with an engine fire and runway excursion. (Programmed in the sim to have us make an emergency evacuation)
Those two examples are good reasons why it's not an option not to be ready with your feet on the pedals, ready to brake (differentially)!!
FCeng84
4th Sep 2018, 18:24
Airplane design engineer and SLF here so I will not comment on the specific foot position question directly. This discussion does however remind me of lessons learned on the football pitch as a lad. Coach drilled into us that "Practice makes Permanent" contrary to the old and incorrect adage that "Practice makes Perfect." The lesson was that you must practice proper form so that you are instinctively ready to use that when needed. If you practice incorrect form, you will perform incorrectly in the heat of the moment. I want the pilot whose plane my family and I ride in to treat every landing as a dress rehearsal for the one that goes bad and needs every bit of skill, preparation, and quick responses they have built up over the years.
Off my soap box for now.
sabenaboy
29th Mar 2019, 10:52
I came across this today. From Airbus itself: https://www.airbus-win.com/ > procedures >standard operating procedures> Takeoff >takeoff procedures and recommendation: click on the camera symbol to watch the movie > as from 07:33
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1040/feet_on_pedals_259f93b7fc2191c10d1e49184fcaacdcbaf7dd38.jpg
Do you see the picture showing the correct position? :O :)
Oh, but of course PGA already said it:
Airbus does have an official position: Feet fully on the pedals.
Check the Airbus WIN application in the APP store and then specifically the video “preventing runway excursion”. There is a very clear depiction of what they recommend.
Edit: roughly 13m50 sec in the video, the recommendation is position 1.
https://www.airbus-win.com/ >procedures >standard operating procedures> landing>preventing runway excursion. You will here the Airbus representative say: "The recommendation is OF COURSE the nr 1 position"
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x563/feet_on_pedals2_3c9604a27ab6c373922f0aae19428c93613f0adc.jpe g
I guess we can really close the discussion now. :O
pineteam
29th Mar 2019, 11:53
You are totally right. The rudder pedals have been designed to have feet up and that’s what is recommended by Airbus test pilots.
This document proves feet up is definitely the way to go on Airbus.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nzx7K8wwyvnf45kKKFQvvWB8F6DFKUKg/view
Document shared by Busav8r here —-> https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/609150-inadvertent-touching-brakes-737-during-takeoffroll.html
sabenaboy
29th Mar 2019, 12:58
You are totally right. The rudder pedals have been designed to have feet up and that’s what is recommended by Airbus test pilots.
This document proves feet up is definitely the way to go on Airbus.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nzx7K8wwyvnf45kKKFQvvWB8F6DFKUKg/view
Document shared by Busav8r here —-> https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/609150-inadvertent-touching-brakes-737-during-takeoffroll.html
Thanks Pineteam,
Great document!
ahramin
18th Apr 2019, 19:08
In the PAST, the official Airbus position was feet completely on the pedals. This is the way I fly almost every aircraft of any make or size.
A few years ago Airbus surveyed their pilots on what technique they use and found a perfect 50/50 split between the 2 techniques. There was no correlation in experience or background to one of the two techniques. Civilian/military, test pilots/airline pilots, all groups had both techniques. So the official Airbus instructor position is now to do what works for you.
I will always advocate for entire feet on pedals, but anyone saying that one technique is incorrect is ... incorrect, and pedalling outdated information.
Reference is the Airbus Worldwide Instructor News app.
grrowler
18th Apr 2019, 21:59
As has been just been posted, Airbus WIN has a video:
procedures>SOP>before pushback or start “What About Pilot Seating Position” stating that either technique is ok. Interestingly the other video link mentioned recommends feet up.
I don’t think I would necessarily consider the google drive document as gospel as it doesn’t appear to be an official Airbus document...
pineteam
19th Apr 2019, 07:58
ALL Airbus illustrations show feet up on the pedals. On Airbus WIN, the most recent video also recommends feet up. Only one not so recent video from one test pilot says they don’t have a clear answer but all the newest videos on the subject recommend feet up.
FCTM says your feet must be in a position to be be able to apply full rudder deflection combined with braking even differential without delay. It’s impossible to do that with heels on the floor. Period. There is no possible argument about it anymore. Feet up is the way that Airbus recommends. It’s written black and white and it’s recommended in the latest Airbus WIN Videos.
That google Drive document is trustworthy as most of its content come from Airbus official documents such as FCTM FCOM and Airbus Safety First Magazines.
Check Airman
19th Apr 2019, 16:09
Since that doc was shared a few weeks ago, I've been doing feet up a bit more. Wound up inadvertently dragging a brake on takeoff from a short runway the other day...
vilas
19th Apr 2019, 17:08
Since that doc was shared a few weeks ago, I've been doing feet up a bit more. Wound up inadvertently dragging a brake on takeoff from a short runway the other day...
If you keep the toes slightly curled back and apply the pressure more from below the ball of the feet it helps avoid brake application.
Buttscratcher
22nd Apr 2019, 10:09
I fully understand Check Airman's point here.
I recently transitioned to the A320, as a Capt. Six of us transitioned from Boeings in the last 3 months.
Whilst in training, we were advised in one of the last sims (new instructor) to adopt this 'feet up' technique.
The company is now getting quite a few FOQAs on dragging brakes, probably from us.
Apparently, the pressure needed to raise a Level 2 FOQA is unnoticeable to the pilot.
Coming from 38 years of 'heals on the floor', it's a big ask to amend previous habit, though I personally was trying very hard to transition, and was mindful of steering inputs with heals not toes.
Our company has issued an FSO to clear up the stance on this.
Cutting a long story short, "...without delay" does not require the pilots feet on the brake pedals.
Now, fair enough for Airbus to make these statements, but it's folly to read too much into it.
I personally think there is a quite few risks with 'feet-up', such as inadvertent brake dragging, inadvertent disarming of AutoBrake in both a rejected TO and on Landing. In an Autobrake assisted abort, the brake will be symmetrical anyway, and I am not going to risk an inadvertent application of brake on a V1 cut.
Old dog, new trick. I personally can't guarantee that I won't revert to my learned habit of pushing with my toes when a situation catches me by surprise.
I'm going back to toes. Too old to change, and apparently not necessary.
FlightDetent
22nd Apr 2019, 12:58
As much as I am a full feet up guy, having been trained for it from the first live flight, that is not what Airbus says.
If they had a justified reason why UP was the desirable choice they would had said so. Again, the way a great many comply with the instruction is feet up with no dragging issues at all. Yet there must be a reason behind the relatively complicated, result focused wording. (which frankly is lawyer's talk and them washing hands - so they had decided not to provide an opinion - take note here).
AviatoR21
23rd Apr 2019, 00:49
Are we not pilots? Next there will be an article on how to hold the side stick! Does Airbus have to spoon feed you everything. C’mon guys.
sonicbum
23rd Apr 2019, 07:20
Are we not pilots? Next there will be an article on how to hold the side stick! Does Airbus have to spoon feed you everything. C’mon guys.
It does make a difference (https://www.academia.edu/31440319/The_way_pilots_handle_their_control_stick_effects_shown_in_a _flight_simulator_study)