PDA

View Full Version : Pay rise certain


RodH
22nd Aug 2018, 23:20
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/329x204/qf_505e832951f8cf6bdaa095c5fd5d79b028ef9c1c.png
Looks like you QF guys will get a fab pay rise.
I'm sure Alan will be rather generous given the latest profits.
Lucky guys!!!
:E:E

Keg
22nd Aug 2018, 23:24
$2.5K (taxed) bonus for all staff.

Big share buback- equivalent to at least 2 787s.

ExtraShot
23rd Aug 2018, 01:06
.Big share buback- equivalent to at least 2 787s.

Indeed. Weren’t they using A380 equivalents as some kind of metric to argue their point not long ago?

Perhaps we can convert the coming (and past) Executive largesse, along with the monies thrown at buybacks, into 787 equivalents?!

greenfields
23rd Aug 2018, 01:16
$2.5K (taxed) bonus for all staff.


*For the vast majority of employees, and subject to some exceptions set out in this document, this component is payable after the employee’s Post-Wage Freeze Collective Agreement (defined below) is voted up by employees, and then approved by the Fair Work Commission.


Nothing like a bit of bribery.......

dragon man
23rd Aug 2018, 01:30
Of course for the staff it’s a flat rated bonus (egalitarianism at its best) while for management it’s based on a percentage of their salary. For them the more they earn the higher the bonus, for us the more you earn the lower the bonus in % terms. George Orwell’s pigs would be proud “ we are all equal but some are more equal than others”.

Slezy9
23rd Aug 2018, 02:10
So about a weeks pay (or less) for the average mainline pilot?

And 5% of annual salary for a bag chucker, CSA or junior flight attendant?

Seems pretty fair :rolleyes:

Pastor of Muppets
23rd Aug 2018, 02:18
What’s a bonus?

T-Vasis
23rd Aug 2018, 02:57
EBA employees will always only ever get a fixed cash bonus. That will never change. Want a % based bonus - take a corporate role.

Share buy back - pump up the share price even more. The underlying real reason for buy backs. Good for the top end who have primary compensation in share allocations.

ROH111
23rd Aug 2018, 03:04
wonder what the short haul bonus will look like? $$

gordonfvckingramsay
23rd Aug 2018, 03:25
I wonder if this extends to all the sub-sub-sub-contract, poverty line operators who are responsible for the facilitation of large sums of revenue. e.g. Network, Cobham, Oceania, Altara, Arrow and the multitude of others...

These profits are largely the result of all out war on the livelihoods of hard working people and nothing more.

dragon man
23rd Aug 2018, 04:08
I wonder if this extends to all the sub-sub-sub-contract, poverty line operators who are responsible for the facilitation of large sums of revenue. e.g. Network, Cobham, Oceania, Altara, Arrow and the multitude of others...

These profits are largely the result of all out war on the livelihoods of hard working people and nothing more.

Well said that person.

Pearly White
23rd Aug 2018, 04:50
Qantas Profit Report on ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-23/qantas-profit-soars-even-as-fuel-costs-set-to-rise/10155252?section=business)

BogeyBoy
23rd Aug 2018, 07:46
*For the vast majority of employees, and subject to some exceptions set out in this document, this component is payable after the employee’s Post-Wage Freeze Collective Agreement (defined below) is voted up by employees, and then approved by the Fair Work Commission.


Nothing like a bit of bribery.......

Note further conditions - employment group must not damage QF reputation - ie - any industrial action during that EBA negotiation and you lose your pitiful bonus too....

Beer Baron
23rd Aug 2018, 08:07
Just as well the bonus is so small we won’t have to worry about them taking it away.

V-Jet
23rd Aug 2018, 08:20
30 pieces of silver.... Hmmmm. Adjusted for inflation, not far off Napolean’s after tax offer. Some things do stand the test of time!

So 30 pieces are about 5 weeks money (based on a 6 day working week.) In terms of purchasing power, each silver piece was probably worth about $20. The standards of living being much, much lower than in modern (Western) societies. So the thirty pieces are worth about $600.

POT100
23rd Aug 2018, 14:09
Does QF really think people will be bullied into quickly accepting their respective EA’s for a piddling $2000?..
They are either very stupid or very smart with something upmtheir sleeve..
i think Qantas has made a very grave decision, which they’re going to regret!!…

QuarterInchSocket
23rd Aug 2018, 15:44
Considering historical events this announcement is designed to trigger a particular response from the working group to drive a particular change set. That strategy is clear. What is unclear is what he intends to change. We need to be united in our position across the respective unions and to pool together and develop a collective strategy in response.

Airbubba
23rd Aug 2018, 16:19
Perhaps not a fair comparison since in the U.S. wages tend to be higher and the cost of living lower but you might want to check out this year's Delta pilot bonuses. They have raised the bar and the other carriers are jealous.

American Pilots Are Angry That Delta Employees Got Big Profit Sharing BonusesFebruary 15, 2018 (https://onemileatatime.com/delta-profit-sharing/) by lucky (https://onemileatatime.com/author/lucky/) 33 (https://onemileatatime.com/delta-profit-sharing/#comments) American (https://onemileatatime.com/american/), Delta (https://onemileatatime.com/delta/) You’ve gotta give Delta credit for how well they take care of their employees. Yesterday Delta announced (http://news.delta.com/delta-pays-employees-more-1-billion-profit-sharing-fourth-consecutive-year) that they’re paying employees over one billion dollars in profit sharing this year. This profit sharing amounts to more than 10% of gross pay for most employees, with the average employee receiving about a $6,000 bonus. That’s a lot.

Here’s what Delta’s CEO, Ed Bastian, had to say about the profit sharing:“This is the fourth year in a row that Delta’s profit sharing has topped $1 billion — a milestone no company in history has ever achieved. Delta people are the reason for our success and Valentine’s Day is our favorite day each year as we celebrate the incredible results our people have delivered.

Our industry-leading profit sharing and compensation philosophy reflects a decision we made a long time ago to share in the company’s success each year with our people who make it possible. Rather than make a one-off payment like other companies, Delta is invested in highly competitive base pay, an industry-leading annual profit sharing plan, and monthly bonuses each year when the airline performs well.”

I give Delta kudos for this, and it’s clear that on balance their employees are more invested in the company than at other airlines (though that’s not true across the board).

Perhaps the more interesting story that has emerged here is how pilots at other airlines feel about this profit sharing. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2018/02/14/american-pilots-say-what-about-us-after-delta-pays-out-1-1-billion-in-profit-sharing/#154da8ba3fea) has an article about how American pilots are saying “what about us?” following yesterday’s news. According to the story, here’s how profit sharing at the “big three” US airlines differs for pilots:

A Delta captain will get a payout of $29,000 to $59,000 (wow!)
A United captain will get a payout of $9,300 to $20,500
An American captain will get a payout of $3,600 to $7,500

Not surprisingly, American’s pilot union (the Allied Pilots Association) wants to discuss higher profit sharing following yesterday’s news. Here’s what a union representative had to say:“The profit sharing pool at Delta is an Olympics size pool,” Tajer said. “American’s is a kiddie-size pool.

“Our pilots want to not only talk but also we insist on seeing our operations leadership recognized and properly aligned with the financial success of our company like Delta pilots have been for years,” he said.

Here’s what an American spokesperson had to say: American spokeswoman Leslie Mayo said, “We are proud to be able to distribute $241 million in profit sharing to our team members for 2017, as well as a mid-contract pay increase of 8% for our pilots.

“Those raises and profit sharing were the right thing to do for our pilots,” Mayo said. “They earn it every day.”
For more context, here’s how the profit sharing arrangements at American, Delta, and United work (as you’ll see, not only does Delta have the biggest profits, but they also share the highest percent of them with employees) :

Excluding special items and profit sharing, Delta earned $6.5 billion in pretax profits in 2017, while American earned $4.1 billion and United earned $3.5 billion, according to APA figures. Delta is sharing $1.1 billion while United will share $349 million and American will share $241 million.

Delta shares 10% of pretax profits up to $2.5 billion and 20% above $2.5 billion, APA said. United shares 10% up to a 6.9% pre-tax margin and 20% above that margin. American shares 5% of its pretax profit.
Aside from profit sharing, pilot pay at the three carriers is roughly comparable, with senior captains all making $323-330 per hour. If you’re curious, here are the pilot pay rates for American (https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/american_airlines), Delta (https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/delta_air_lines), and United (https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/united_airlines).

I’m a bit conflicted in regards to how to feel about the frustration from American pilots.

On one hand, airlines are greedy at the expense of passengers, so it’s not like I want them to keep more of their money and have bigger executives bonuses.

At the same time, it sure seems to me like airline pilot pay is once again getting unsustainably high. Pilots are now back to their pre-9/11 pay rates (inflation adjusted), with some captains making $400,000 per year in total compensation. If any of a variety of factors occurs, airlines won’t be able to sustain these pay rates, and they’ll be back to where they were before. American and the pilots negotiated contracts, and American even raised their pay by 8% last year, which wasn’t required by the contract. They’re getting more than they negotiated and are entitled to.

Furthermore, part of the reason that Delta has such generous profit sharing is because they generate higher profits. American pilots want higher profit sharing even though the airline doesn’t do as well, which to me largely misses the point. While I think management decisions are the driving force in airline performance, employees also do make a big difference, and I can’t say I notice that many employees at American going above and beyond.

https://onemileatatime.com/delta-profit-sharing/ (https://onemileatatime.com/delta-profit-sharing/)

QuarterInchSocket
23rd Aug 2018, 17:04
Air bubba - the delta case is predicated on a cooperative executive management. Also, I’m failing to see the point you’re trying to make.

There are few learnings that can be extracted in a meaningful way from that article. I mean, Delta operated successfully in their market sphere, their management acknowledged it and divied out a fair share of the loot, other airlines took exception. Best learning from that is, delta management distributed wealth in good faith in recognition of good performance.

Still, I fail to see how applicable that is to the circumstances endured by q staff

Rated De
23rd Aug 2018, 21:31
Note further conditions - employment group must not damage QF reputation - ie - any industrial action during that EBA negotiation and you lose your pitiful bonus too....

It is standard industry practice for contract negotiations to lever the business cycle.

There is substantial literature on the process.

Usually companies open 'negotiations' with endless delays. Then,

A list of claim is outlined, which due the economic cycle is unacceptable. Then the strategy is wait.
The wait is timed to allow the business and economic environment to change. (negatively)
Then commences the push down and reductions sought.

With a global shortage now biting and real advances in terms and conditions this threat ought be seen for what it is: A recognition that a delay will not improve the company position.

The FWC might take exception to 'threats' to restrict a workplace right

CurtainTwitcher
24th Aug 2018, 00:45
The only pay rise certain is for the executives who partake in the Long Term Incentive Plan (LTIP). It is worth considering the Qantas 2017 Annual report (http://investor.qantas.com/FormBuilder/_Resource/_module/doLLG5ufYkCyEPjF1tpgyw/file/annual-reports/2017AnnualReport.pdf) pages 39 & 40. The lack of investment in Qantas, the share buy-back & dividend policy is incentived by the LTIP performance criteria to elevate the share price to hit the total return targets for bonus payouts. Expect further buy backs and less investment in the business if the markets move higher. Got to keep up with the Jones to get a pay day.

TSR = Total Shareholder Returns, that is share price + dividends

Qantas Annual Report 2017, page 13
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1438x184/qantas_ar_2017_p13_b38a2b4610eb4c8a98975cbebed46a17e07a0ec8. jpeg



Qantas Annual Report 2017, page 39
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/943x559/qantas_ar_2017_p39_4d91c40350fd9c818cb16349c4b483a191fb54c9. jpeg
Qantas Annual Report 2017, page 40
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/992x607/qantas_ar_2017_p40_4ebf01c61ecce42534d654ba8ad02e4290e54166. jpeg

DutchRoll
24th Aug 2018, 02:36
Gotta hand it to him. Presenting a bonus offer which is conditional on employees accepting pretty much without question the company position in EBA negotiations is one of the greatest "we'll give em a bonus which costs us nothing" (not to mention the $500 staff travel credit which gets written off on unsold seats at essentially no cost) techniques they've come up with so far!

The interesting thing is, how many will swallow the spin? My bet is the media will take it hook, line and sinker, as they've generally shown that business class upgrades, lounge memberships, and complimentary seats to report on overseas QF travel destinations are more important than actually questioning anything the CEO says.

MELKBQF
24th Aug 2018, 03:08
https://www.3aw.com.au/rumour-confirmed-aircraft-engineers-union-slams-dirty-trick-by-qantas/

President of the Engineers union on Melbourne radio this morning.

QuarterInchSocket
24th Aug 2018, 03:29
https://www.3aw.com.au/rumour-confirmed-aircraft-engineers-union-slams-dirty-trick-by-qantas/

President of the Engineers union on Melbourne radio this morning.

the unfortunate thing is that that is a single instance of a counter position to that of q that has been broadcasted to the public. Our union positions must be made public immediately whilst debate is fresh amongst the public.

The ceo has spruiked the bonus message across mainstream media as if to say that 67mil is currently sitting in our accounts, which is most certainly not the case and unlikely to ever be, unless this goes to FWC and ruled in the employees favour.

There is a desperate need to get the message to the public that in fact, the 67mil still sits with the company and that we are being held to ransom. The longer we wait to advocate, the more entrenched the perception among the public that we are ungrateful pigs with our snouts in the trough. But this is simply my opinion.

Rated De
24th Aug 2018, 03:33
Section 343 Fair Work Act 2009

Coercion (1) A person must not organise or take, or threaten to organise or take, any action against another person with intent to coerce the other person, or a third person, to: (a) exercise or not exercise, or propose to exercise or not exercise, a workplace right; or (b) exercise, or propose to exercise, a workplace right in a particular way.

Rated De
24th Aug 2018, 03:35
What the unions ought do is donate to drought relief or some worthy charity.

That exposes what is a self serving grossly over compensated senior management,

QuarterInchSocket
24th Aug 2018, 04:02
Agree with both posts Rated De, particularly the latter. The general consensus is to donate the bonus to our farmers and I think this would attract solid support.

Ngineer
24th Aug 2018, 04:37
There is a bigger story to this. With the Inlt FA union claiming it's EBA expires 2021, what happens to any bonus that may accrue in that time? Are management expecting it will accumulate to an amount that will secure an unfair wage deal? Are they trying to push for shorter term agreements?

I am sure that there is some type of hidden agenda here as they start marching already disgruntled employees towards expiring agreements.

QuarterInchSocket
24th Aug 2018, 05:20
There are between 40-50 ea’s for q. A good bunch are due for expiration within a year and they include key influencers like mainline pilots (sh/lh) and mainline licensed engineers... assuming a bonus next fy, then two bonuses come under consideration moving forward for these 3 ea’s. the tone will be set primarily by these 3 in any case (mainline ramp have just signed their new ea). A lesser number will have a number of fy’s to consider. All of this is assuming the respective ea bargaining don’t drag out past at least 1 additional financial year.

the point is this, for maximum effect we must coordinate amongst ourselves and give effect to developed strategy without delay, preferably prior to 2 things happening, 1- loss of public interest and entrenchment of their perception of our affairs and 2- any subsequent financial years elapsing.

Rated De
24th Aug 2018, 05:31
There is a bigger story to this. With the Inlt FA union claiming it's EBA expires 2021, what happens to any bonus that may accrue in that time? Are management expecting it will accumulate to an amount that will secure an unfair wage deal? Are they trying to push for shorter term agreements?

I am sure that there is some type of hidden agenda here as they start marching already disgruntled employees towards expiring agreements.

Nefarious intent is always prime motivation.

For those well versed in IR strategy, what is apparent at the current time is that:

Qantas was 'terminal' in FY11 to be 'transformed' in FY15. All achieved with same fleet and wage structure.
Biggest loss in QF history achieved by fleet impairment, the timing of which was management's in
Pay freezes achieved for 18 months with significant long term compound loss for staff.
All insider managers on LTIP (yes their pay was frozen in some cases by millions of VERY cheap options were granted, vesting date FY15)
'transformation' profit comprised of depreciation reduction and fuel price falls.
All insiders handsomely rewarded.

Even with the handsome pay off., for the insider it was a once off.

With the business cycle not aligning with open contracts, it is difficult to leverage downwards pressure. They need leverage.
For the pilots the usual practice is to threaten to remove the ' back payment' component in a contract negotiation. Remember the back payment gets bigger the longer management stall!
With a global shortage, at least in the case of pilots, delaying contract negotiations does not generate additional leverage for management, in effect it reveals the weakness of their usual overwhelmingly powerful position.

This is a ham fisted attempt to generate some leverage of employee groups.
At least the Engineering union called it for what it is; probably illegal.
Mr Purvinas is referring to section 343 FWA (2009)

Street garbage
24th Aug 2018, 05:48
https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/company-news/slapped-in-the-face-qantas-workers-fume-over-dollar2500-reward/ar-BBMm5uO?li=AAgfOd8&ocid=PerDHP

Sorry, do i need another reason to vote no?
Let's just donate $2k to the farmers, and let the public see what contempt Qantas management has for it's workers.

Ollie Onion
24th Aug 2018, 06:44
Last year Jetstar pilots got the Qantas bonus and a bonus from Jetstar of approx 10 percent of base pay.

CaptCloudbuster
24th Aug 2018, 07:07
Last year Jetstar pilots got the Qantas bonus and a bonus from Jetstar of approx 10 percent of base pay.

But to be fair, they did carry 24 million pax at less than $100

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
24th Aug 2018, 07:11
Last year Jetstar pilots got the Qantas bonus and a bonus from Jetstar of approx 10 percent of base pay.

that would be the company performance bonus which is detailed in the EBA. There should be another one this year given the Jetstar Groups record profit.

blubak
24th Aug 2018, 07:55
$2500 and $500 is staff travel credits,i dont need to beg to get on an aircraft,i would rather pay $59 to tiger of even jetstar if i was desperate & then i can fly when it suits me,staff travel credits are useless.
$2000 in cash,take roughly 10% out of it for your super contribution ($200) which is what happens,the company dont pay your super on a bonus,$1800 left,30% tax to be paid equates to roughly $500 so u got $1300 left,over 1 year thats $25 bucks a week in your hand,are we that desperate for $25 a week that we will sell our souls.
How brave to make an announcement yet decide to only mention the bits to make oneself look good & then to come out & say they are surprised that the unions are upset,it really speaks numbers about what land these people live in.
We dont need to be bullied into signing up for $25 a week,i would rather do without a couple of beers & be able to sleep easily at night.

dragon man
24th Aug 2018, 09:10
$2500 and $500 is staff travel credits,i dont need to beg to get on an aircraft,i would rather pay $59 to tiger of even jetstar if i was desperate & then i can fly when it suits me,staff travel credits are useless.
$2000 in cash,take roughly 10% out of it for your super contribution ($200) which is what happens,the company dont pay your super on a bonus,$1800 left,30% tax to be paid equates to roughly $500 so u got $1300 left,over 1 year thats $25 bucks a week in your hand,are we that desperate for $25 a week that we will sell our souls.
How brave to make an announcement yet decide to only mention the bits to make oneself look good & then to come out & say they are surprised that the unions are upset,it really speaks numbers about what land these people live in.
We dont need to be bullied into signing up for $25 a week,i would rather do without a couple of beers & be able to sleep easily at night.

lie down with dogs get up with fleas. They are immoral pricks.

cattletruck
24th Aug 2018, 10:43
As a regular reader of Colin Kruger's articles in the Fairfax rag where he quite often details the executive remuneration of those running our corporations, $2500 is chump change considering our corporate elite aren't really doing anything deservedly for their half million dollar plus bonuses other than just turning up for work.

Then there is the cost of being able to buy a house in the city which needs a $250K bonus just to get a toe in - which is chump change for our overpaid executives.

Obscene salaries for some, bread crumbs for the rest.

stiffwing
24th Aug 2018, 10:54
And I note with interest that the position of the executive tasked with the initial email to staff is now being advertised! Perhaps she wasn’t totally convinced by the whole thrust of the bonus scheme, expressed her dismay, and was ‘Strambied’ ?

V-Jet
24th Aug 2018, 11:37
I like the donate to farmers argument. I donated my last bonus to my local MP because he thought AJ was a genius. I told him all I asked for my money was that someone who had worked for an Australian Icon for xx years felt so strongly about the issue that he (and he is a real ‘he’ before HR jump down my throat) should remember my gift when next he thinks about his Chairman’s Lounge access and how much the giver has extracted for him(not sure about that) self. Of course I paid the sticker price of the donation, not the after tax, staff travel, super figure....

i did did say I felt dirty accepting bribes from someone I considered a thief. I think I made a point.

knobbycobby
24th Aug 2018, 12:24
This is a pathetic threat that shows the contempt Alan Joyce and Qantas management has for both pilots and staff.
After tax and deductions it’s around $800. Over the two years an EBA takes to finish it’s around $3 a week.
He thinks you are that stupid whilst rewarding himself with 30 MILLION per year. This year could be 50 MILLION in total.
Anyone worked out the last 4 years including options? Must be close to $100 million.
How does that compare to other airline CEOs? It’s obscene anyway.
In the largest global pilot shortage in history you can earn $700,000 in China and a CEO thinks he’s worth 30-40 MILLION a year, it’s a total disgrace.And he’s threatening you with $800 in the hand. Wow. Just wow.
As rated D said I’d rather donate it to charity and illustrate the greed and delusions of grandeur. Perhaps people have Stockholm syndrome that badly?
If you ever needed conclusive proof not to be sold a dud agreement by Qantas using pathetic threats then this is it.
Even our most gullible colleagues that have sadly been repeatedly bullied by relentless propaganda must finally be questioning this utter insult.

Keg
24th Aug 2018, 12:59
Why are any of us suprised when a snake behaves like a snake?

C441
24th Aug 2018, 22:52
Your yearly bonus this year equals one hour of the CEO's bonus last year…..and I don't mean a credited hour!

Rated De
24th Aug 2018, 23:20
Your yearly bonus this year equals one hour of the CEO's bonus last year…..and I don't mean credited hour!

When the Chicago school of economics and Milton Friedman decreed that 'executive remuneration' ought be linked to share market performance, executives wept.
With endless tweaks to financial statements and an increasingly lax regulatory enforcement regime there was only way way it would go.

CEOs now earn 78 times more than Australian workers - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-06/ceo-salaries-78-times-average-australian/9216156)


AVERAGE CEO compensation in the USA is 271 AVERAGE worker earnings.

As companies have come under a bit of scrutiny on executive salary, they now mask it with overly complicated executive remuneration models, so that the 'total compensation' with lots of options lagging from other years is increasingly difficult to calculate. An increasing focus on LTIP plans which by their nature are opaque, ensures that for a real decline in Total Revenue in the years of his tenure, little Napoleon has exceeded nearly every airline CEO in realised compensation.

OnceBitten
25th Aug 2018, 02:22
Where is The protection from HR and their policies when it comes to the Executives openly bullying the employees???

I would have thought using the bonus as a carrot from a profit that the employees have well and truly earned by hard work, going above and beyond, max hours, extending duties, covering shortages of staff etc etc over the last 12 months as a blackmail to sign off on a future EBA would be below even this mob.

Obviously I was wrong...... :ugh::ugh:

SandyPalms
25th Aug 2018, 03:56
I would have thought using the bonus as a carrot from a profit that the employees have well and truly earned by hard work, going above and beyond, max hours, extending duties, covering shortages of staff etc etc over the last 12 months as a blackmail to sign off on a future EBA would be below even this mob.

Obviously I was wrong...... :ugh::ugh:

This is where my contribution stops. As a posted on another forum said, “I’ll take my bonus in JetA1”. Couldn’t agree more.

DutchRoll
25th Aug 2018, 04:02
HR work for the executives. HR are only ever on an employee's side when it's convenient for them to be and I've seen the same unwritten rule applied in other organisations. Actually I saw an appalling example of it not long ago in a State Government department (though they need to be careful, as in that particular case a lot of evidence has been amassed on a file held in a legal office for use on a "rainy day").

dragon man
25th Aug 2018, 04:38
Where is The protection from HR and their policies when it comes to the Executives openly bullying the employees???

I would have thought using the bonus as a carrot from a profit that the employees have well and truly earned by hard work, going above and beyond, max hours, extending duties, covering shortages of staff etc etc over the last 12 months as a blackmail to sign off on a future EBA would be below even this mob.

Obviously I was wrong...... :ugh::ugh:

You must be referring to morals, this mob couldn’t spell the word and thatbpage in their dictionary has been conveniently removed.

Rated De
25th Aug 2018, 04:46
Imagine the optics,

On a big breakfast TV program a few union leaders present a cheque to struggling farmers.
Pointing out that this represents a sizeable (percentage of their members and the paltry 'bonus' amount) contribution, representing x% of total salary...
Noting the caveat that unlike Qantas management, the bonus for staff is conditional, but staff donate it anyway..
What it shows very pointedly is that airlines are a part of their community. The staff are the community.
Looking at the scope of the drought, it would be very much appreciated too!

And pointedly ask Mr Joyce and the other insiders to match it.

There is no counter to that, Olivia can't offer enough family upgrades and chairman's lounge memberships. It is a powerful statement of executive malfeasance.

bazza stub
25th Aug 2018, 05:06
Aren't these brekky TV shows pretty much beholden to airlines??

T-Vasis
25th Aug 2018, 07:35
Well this is not just limited to Qantas. Air NZ has delivered the second highest profit in history and it is offering its employees Australian dollar equivalent of $1,600.00.

NGsim
25th Aug 2018, 08:28
I’m not saying this is right (far from it in fact) but all bonuses over the past several years have been subject to signing an EBA that includes the 18month pay freeze along with ‘not causing harm to the brand’ (cough, cough).
Why the furore over it this time when I don’t recall it previously?

GA Driver
25th Aug 2018, 08:56
Because this is after the wage freeze agreement meaning the next agreement and on most cases yet to be negotiated.

It’s subtle but here it is..... “is payable after the employee’s post wage-freeze collective agreement is voted up and approved. This ‘sign on’ approach is consistent with the past three bonuses that have been awarded.”

Ollie Onion
25th Aug 2018, 08:57
Because in this case some people are going to have to wait up to 4 years to realise a bonus that was awarded on the basis of helping the company succeed in 2017/18. If you leave in the next 4 years then no bonus for you despite you being part of the contributing force to the success. This just seems cynical and unnecessary, I for one have just had the last glimmer of good will kicked out of me, they can get F*&ked.

Rated De
25th Aug 2018, 09:03
I’m not saying this is right (far from it in fact) but all bonuses over the past several years have been subject to signing an EBA that includes the 18month pay freeze along with ‘not causing harm to the brand’ (cough, cough).
Why the furore over it this time when I don’t recall it previously?

An implied threat with a number of open contractual agreements, hence the attempt under s 343 FWA (2009) could well be viewed as illegal and it is highly probable that the more astute union leadership will challenge the legality of the threat.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
25th Aug 2018, 09:06
Well this is not just limited to Qantas. Air NZ has delivered the second highest profit in history and it is offering its employees Australian dollar equivalent of $1,600.00.

At least that bonus will be paid immediately (I presume), not in 1-2 or in some cases 4 years as it will be in the Qantas Group. It’s an absolute disgrace. We help the company by signing up to 18 month wage freezes, which will see us 4.5% behind where our pay should be perpetually, and this is how they reward us. I feel sick to call myself an employee of the Qantas Group.

NGsim
25th Aug 2018, 09:10
Bearing in mind that there are still employee groups awaiting the QF bonuses from 2016 until now. This isn’t new (again, it’s still not right!)

Beer Baron
25th Aug 2018, 09:37
One can’t defend a poor policy by claiming they are only being consistent.

The reason us pilots are angry this time is that we had already signed our wage freeze EA before the previous bonus was announced so we were never subject to this outright industrial bribery.

More broadly speaking, in previous years there was a well known, company wide wages policy in place, born of the disasterous financial position the company had been steered into. It was a known position that ALL groups would have to comply with the freeze and bonuses were withheld until agreement was reached. (Still a low act)

This time no such circumstances exist.
It is a cynical attempt to stack the deck in favour of Qantas in all EA negotiations going forward long before Qantas have even dream up their demands.

knobbycobby
25th Aug 2018, 09:39
I think it’s important not to get distracted by a potential $800-$900 post tax bonus not being paid.
It is disappointing for it to be used as a future bargaining ploy. It should be paid for all the hard work achieved last year and act to encourage a continuation of the effort required for a very busy year ahead. All fleets have been on max hours. We have all contributed to the turnaround and another record profit.

However Safety is our number one priority.
Take the fuel you deem appropriate. Be safe and conservative.Don’t feel pressured to give back leave. Rest and family time is essential to health and well-being.
Don’t feel obliged to assist with extra flying, ensure you get adequate rest that is required during high hours and high workload. Inadequate pilot numbers leading to cancelled services are not your legal responsibility. An individuals assessed Fitness to operate safety is a legal requirement under the CAOs.
Operate conservatively and dont feel pressured to take unnecessary risks taxing on one engine. Take the flap or reverse required.
Coming up to summer consider running the APU with sufficient time to keep passengers and crew comfortable consistent with a premium airline. Getting too hot and uncomfortable during a pre flight is a potential threat.
Do not operate fatigued and act responsibly and conservatively when making that self assessment.
Don’t rush between gates and make sure your crews never unduly rush dealing with MELs or procedures. Safety before schedule.
Threats like these can add to stress which has the potential to cause distractions on the flight deck.
It is your licence and legal responsibility.
It is what we do anyway but a timely reminder as these issues and ultimatums can be very distracting and disheartening.
I will concentrate on my legal responsibilities as an airline pilot and give my full support to my AIPA representatives to deal with this.
This recent development has served to reinvigorate my support for AIPA in negotiations.
Improvements to Working conditions for the remainder of my career should be the priority and not a small bonus threat.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
25th Aug 2018, 09:55
It doesn’t matter to me how much or how little the ‘bonus’ is, it’s the principle that they’re using what should be a reward for contributing towards record profits as chip at the negotiating table.

FightDeck
25th Aug 2018, 10:01
May 2018

”Emirates Group, operator of the world’s biggest long-haul airline, will award a five-week bonus each to its employees in this month’s pay-cheque after the group announced a 67 per cent rise in profit for the last fiscal year, chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum said on Wednesday.”
At the post earnings announcement this week, Emirates Group chairman and CEO Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed al Maktoum said the group's well-established bonus scheme encourages greater staff input.”

“The bonus is an incentive for staff to continue contributing ideas. The more we save on costs the more profit we make the more we can do this. At certain times we’ve paid anywhere up to 13 weeks,” he said.

FightDeck
25th Aug 2018, 10:21
Delta Airlines may have been its employees’ best Valentine: on February 14, Delta announced that it will distribute more than 1.1 billion in profit-sharing bonuses from 2017 earnings.

“This is the fourth year in a row that Delta’s profit sharing has topped $1 billion — a milestone no company in history has ever achieved,” said CEO Ed Bastian. “Delta people are the reason for our success, and Valentine’s Day is our favorite day each year as we celebrate the incredible results our people have delivered.”

In 2017, Delta Airlines raked in 5.5 billion in pretax earnings. American Airlines brought in $3.8 Billion in pre tax and United Airlines $3 Billion.

According to the Allied pilots association or APA union, Delta shares 10% of pretax profits up to $2.5 billion, and 20% above $2.5 billion. United shares 10% up to a 6.9% pre-tax margin and 20% above that margin. American shares 5% of its pretax profit, the lowest rate among US majors.


For Delta pilots, the best paid line employees at any airline, this results in quite a sizable payout. According to union figures, based on 2017 earnings and profit-sharing numbers, Delta captains will receive a whopping $29,000 to $59,000, depending on tenure. In comparison, a United captain will receive between $9,300 to $20,500 in profit-sharing bonuses, while American Airlines captains will receive a measly $3,600 to $7,500.

A union representative at American is, unsurprisingly, not happy that the other guys are getting all the money. “The profit sharing pool at Delta is an Olympics-size pool,” he said. “American’s is a kiddie-size pool.” (Not that pilots are exactly starving, in general. Their salaries have risen significantly in recent years at least for those with more seniority.)

Delta says it has paid out over $5 billion through the profit-sharing program over the last five years, and the average Delta employee will receive around $6,000 as a bonus for 2017. That’s more than 10% of average base pay for most employees. These bonuses exist despite the fact that Delta’s made quite a bit less net profit last year than the year before: about 18 percent less, with 3.6 billion in 2017 compared to 4.4 Billion.

Delta employees make about 80% more in 2018 than they did a decade ago, according to the airline.

Profit-sharing at American Airlines is a recent development: AA employment contracts before 2015 did not include any form of profit-sharing, and the airline went beyond the contract to introduce profit-sharing at the same rate that existed before American’s merger with US Airways in 2013. In addition, American Airlines also implemented a mid-contract pay increase of 8% in April 2017.

pig dog
25th Aug 2018, 11:22
What a wonderful opportunity to show the nation how generous the pilot body is and how distasteful their management are for very little cost.

1) Choose a suitable (tax deductible) charity to donate to (drought relief / Red Cross / Smith Family / Salvation Army / Gay Pride etc.).

2) Let every media outlet in the country know that the entire pilot body wishes to donate their full bonuses to a worthy charity provided the pay freeze condition is removed.

3) Watch AJ scurrying and changing position re pay freeze, now explaining he would not stop a donation circa $6 million going to said charity and would pay the bonus he has already promised and made provision for.

4) July 1 2019 submit tax return including $2000 donation to charity. Receive additional $900 in your tax return.

For the majority of the pilot population, the difference between receiving the bonus paid or donating it all and claiming the deduction would be around $200. The value of the marketing coup and the exposure to the public of this outrageous “bonus” would be worth considerably more.

Rated De
25th Aug 2018, 11:23
Ever wondered why Tour of Duty limits are hard limits?
It is because pilots are empowered to act in the interests of safety. If extending beyond a statutory limit, it is because the pilot accepts all liability. The statute fails to protect a pilot outside the regulatory maximum.


CAR 224: Pilot in command
(2) A pilot in command of an aircraft is responsible for: (a) the start, continuation, diversion and end of a flight by the aircraft; and
(b) the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time; and
(c) the safety of persons and cargo carried on the aircraft; and
(d) the conduct and safety of members of the crew on the aircraft.

Strict liability as expressed in section 6.1 of the Criminal Code details who exactly is responsible for all operational decisions. It isn't little Napoleon.

A domestic pilot extending beyond 12 hours is 'courageous' indeed. For his colleagues in long haul going beyond 20 is also where angels dare!


The reams of accountants with their myriad of excel spreadsheets don't bother counting 'goodwill'. To them there is zero tangible value. But boy do they notice it when it is withdrawn.
Why pilots accept to carry strict liability by accepting less than minimum rest, sign on, TOD extensions, cancelled days off etc is a source of amusement for the the cost accountants, who right now have their weekend off, like every other weekend.

A comparison of airline executive remuneration shows just how over compensated is little napoleon.

Rated De
25th Aug 2018, 11:26
What a wonderful opportunity to show the nation how generous the pilot body is and how distasteful their management are for very little cost.

1) Choose a suitable (tax deductible) charity to donate to (drought relief / Red Cross / Smith Family / Salvation Army / Gay Pride etc.).

2) Let every media outlet in the country know that the entire pilot body wishes to donate their full bonuses to a worthy charity provided the pay freeze condition is removed.

3) Watch AJ scurrying and changing position re pay freeze, now explaining he would not stop a donation circa $6 million going to said charity and would pay the bonus he has already promised and made provision for.

4) July 1 2019 submit tax return including $2000 donation to charity. Receive additional $900 in your tax return.

For the majority of the pilot population, the difference between receiving the bonus paid or donating it all and claiming the deduction would be around $200. The value of the marketing coup and the exposure to the public of this outrageous “bonus” would be worth considerably more.






Precisely, it is asymmetric warfare.
That little Napoleon is detested by the broader populace and to many Australians is well remembered for October 201, a magnanimous gesture, that really would do a lot of good, would cause all sorts of indigestion in fort fumble as they desperately tried to circumvent it.

This from 2015

As is Joyce, whose remuneration package this year is about $12 million.But is the Qantas management team worth it when compared to the performance of peer airlines? From 2009 to 2015 Singapore Airlines made an aggregate net profit after tax of $3.5 billion; Cathay Pacific $4.8 billion; and Air New Zealand $898 million.Qantas in the same period lost $2.1 billion but its CEO earned almost 50 per cent more than Singapore Airlines' CEO.



In FY16 and FY17, with falling real revenue for his entire tenure, a tidy $38.5million further eclipsing his peers, not in profit, but remuneration. Lucky the options were well timed!

angryrat
25th Aug 2018, 11:59
they can get F*&ked.I couldn’t have put it more succinctly myself.

ruprecht
25th Aug 2018, 15:49
If they are going to f*&k us they could at least take us to the carpark first...

Transition Layer
25th Aug 2018, 16:10
Because in this case some people are going to have to wait up to 4 years to realise a bonus that was awarded on the basis of helping the company succeed in 2017/18. If you leave in the next 4 years then no bonus for you despite you being part of the contributing force to the success. This just seems cynical and unnecessary, I for one have just had the last glimmer of good will kicked out of me, they can get F*&ked.

Beautifully summed up... :D

Ngineer
26th Aug 2018, 00:34
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/270x264/421cd773_3a1b_4319_98d4_becc8115da8d_f92ed0bb8a86dbe58a9c513 e3f14932e3530104f.jpeg

blubak
26th Aug 2018, 01:06
Great to see all the feedback across social media,hopefully now the minority group that continually go above & beyond can see their reward 'NOTHING'

over_centre
26th Aug 2018, 01:44
Aren't these brekky TV shows pretty much beholden to airlines??

Indeed. A cashcow currently sleeping with virgins in exchange for business favours soon to accept such favours from the Napoleanic cavalry. Don't expect the cow to bite the hand that feeds it.

DutchRoll
26th Aug 2018, 01:56
What a wonderful opportunity to show the nation how generous the pilot body is and how distasteful their management are for very little cost.

1) Choose a suitable (tax deductible) charity to donate to (drought relief / Red Cross / Smith Family / Salvation Army / Gay Pride etc.).

2) Let every media outlet in the country know that the entire pilot body wishes to donate their full bonuses to a worthy charity provided the pay freeze condition is removed.

3) Watch AJ scurrying and changing position re pay freeze, now explaining he would not stop a donation circa $6 million going to said charity and would pay the bonus he has already promised and made provision for.

4) July 1 2019 submit tax return including $2000 donation to charity. Receive additional $900 in your tax return.

For the majority of the pilot population, the difference between receiving the bonus paid or donating it all and claiming the deduction would be around $200. The value of the marketing coup and the exposure to the public of this outrageous “bonus” would be worth considerably more.
That is not the narrative AJ will feed to the media and he has the media eating out of his hand (remember, Ben Sandilands was about the only journo with the guts to criticise QF and he was ostracised by the company for it). If we get all aggressive about this, he will feed to the media that pilots are using charity donation as a bargaining chip to avoid productivity increases in their EBA and “using the farmers/Smith Family/Salvos to hold the company to ransom when they already earn the money to make that donation without conditions attached”. The media and the incumbent government will lap that up.

This management group is ruthless and truth or perspective does not matter to them. The problem is that we pilots can often be more hot-headed than calm and diligent about it. I have BIG reservations about directly linking a potential charity donation to the bonus and therefore EBA negotiations.

Keg
26th Aug 2018, 03:10
Agreed. I posted earlier that we shouldn’t be surprised when a snake behaves as one. That includes in response to actions by various groups of employees to shame Qantas into taking the reasonable and sensible steps they should have taken in the first place.

Having made this dumb decision now, what in Qantas previous history suggests they’ll think to themselves ‘oops, got that wrong’ instead of doubling down on their idiocy and going hard at those who point out the underlying callousness of their actions. To be honest they’re probably still trying to work out why everyone is being so ‘ungrateful’ at the largesse they’ve handed out.

The stupidity of this own goal is that as somone else pointed out, instead of the media (both mainstream and social) narrative being about a record profit (and ‘awesome management’), it’s all about this duplicitous act. It’s further confirmed in the public’s eye the image of Joyce and Qantas as being a bunch of callous dills.

QuarterInchSocket
26th Aug 2018, 03:14
he will feed to the media that pilots are using charity donation as a bargaining chip to avoid productivity increases in their EBA and “using the farmers/Smith Family/Salvos to hold the company to ransom when they already earn the money to make that donation without conditions attached”. The media and the incumbent government will lap that up.


Let’s hope that on Monday a number of counter measures are developed if it is decided to donate to our farmers. That donation should be delivered with a concise message that is brief (a one liner), and said over and over like a broken record. It might be effective to beat the company to the punch and admit that we are trying to leverage in the same fashion as they did, or maybe not. On Monday I am hoping the merits of our proposed actions will be tabled and tested among the unions.

I think our farmers should get the money, irrespective of the motivations appended to the reasoning in getting that money to them. The message is very clear both from company and from us; the company won’t distribute the 2k to us without signing the next ea, allegedly an act of coercion. Our response - remove the 2k from the equation so that we can “negotiate on a level playing field”. Charity seems to be the best method of removal at this point.

My 5c worth.

fearcampaign
26th Aug 2018, 06:07
Got a call from crewing. Short of resources again and have a rare weekend day off with family.
The family reminded me that I’ve worked the last few Christmas, Easter and most school holidays.
Would of loved to help out again and go beyond what’s required but I need pay rises and improved conditions agreed in my EBA first before I can agree to trade the “bonus” of my time off. Works both ways.
Agree with others on the donation idea. Bigger fish to fry.
They can shove the paltry one off bonus up their A&$#. I’ll be voting NO till I get a decent compounding pay rise for my hard work.

josephfeatherweight
26th Aug 2018, 08:18
Got a call from crewing. Short of resources again and have a rare weekend day off with family.
The family reminded me that I’ve worked the last few Christmas, Easter and most school holidays.
Would of loved to help out again and go beyond what’s required but I need pay rises and improved conditions agreed in my EBA first before I can agree to trade the “bonus” of my time off. Works both ways.
Agree with others on the donation idea. Bigger fish to fry.
They can shove the paltry one off bonus up their A&$#. I’ll be voting NO till I get a decent compounding pay rise for my hard work.

Hats off - that’s the correct attitude that will encourage change - you’re absolutely right!

Rated De
26th Aug 2018, 08:28
Got a call from crewing. Short of resources again and have a rare weekend day off with family.
The family reminded me that I’ve worked the last few Christmas, Easter and most school holidays.
Would of loved to help out again and go beyond what’s required but I need pay rises and improved conditions agreed in my EBA first before I can agree to trade the “bonus” of my time off. Works both ways.
Agree with others on the donation idea. Bigger fish to fry.
They can shove the paltry one off bonus up their A&$#. I’ll be voting NO till I get a decent compounding pay rise for my hard work.


Make them count what they don't bother; goodwill

Why even bother answering the phone on a day off?

Pilots are the enablers, when goodwill is missing they count it in lost revenue:

AOC High Capacity RPT has 'scheduled service' obligations (above a threshold of cancellations, airlines actually are in breach)
Airport operators base their revenue forecasts of gate occupancy and aeronautical revenue on published schedule. Guess what happens when airlines don't do as published?
ASX listing rule 3.1 works to support Corporations Act 2001 s.674 with respect to material financial disclosures that could have, if publicly known have an effect on share price.
The ever looking the wrong way, Qantas board will have a revenue loss threshold that raises their interest, particularly with relation to Corporations Act 2001 s.674
Sick leave, provisions are a requirement under legislative penalty. Burning sick leave provisions impact KPI.
Pilot stuff costs them a fortune. They simply don't bother counting it as pilots are usually compliant.

Ask any investment analyst and invariably the first question following the request for inside information is 90% related to the company relationship with pilots.

cattletruck
27th Aug 2018, 09:45
Today's Fairfax media published an article on what the Chancellors at our top Australian universities are being paid. Some of them are on an annual $1.4m AUD and most are on around $1m AUD. The Oxford University equivalent in the UK is on $616K AUD.

Sign of the times or is there something precious about our lot?

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-nation-s-highest-paid-university-leaders-20180826-p4zztd.html

romeocharlie
27th Aug 2018, 10:05
Today's Fairfax media published an article on what the Chancellors at our top Australian universities are being paid. Some of them are on an annual $1.4m AUD and most are on around $1m AUD. The Oxford University equivalent in the UK is on $616K AUD.

Sign of the times or is there something precious about our lot?

Interesting figures when the cost to attend a 1 year MBA at Oxford (UK) is £57,200, and the equivalent at UNSW/ANU is nowhere near that.

clark y
28th Aug 2018, 01:04
Maybe we need some bumper stickers- A1 for Alan.
(No I am not suggesting carrying a bit more fuel for mum and the kids- that would be suggesting unprotected industrial action)

bazza stub
28th Aug 2018, 01:53
No I am not suggesting carrying a bit more fuel for mum and the kids- that would be suggesting unprotected industrial action

But carrying min flightplanned fuel and diverting the minute you get dicked around wouldn’t be.

neville_nobody
28th Aug 2018, 02:37
But carrying min flightplanned fuel and diverting the minute you get dicked around wouldn’t be.


Ironically that would fix alot of problems not just industrial ones.

DutchRoll
28th Aug 2018, 12:22
Maybe we need some bumper stickers- A1 for Alan.
(No I am not suggesting carrying a bit more fuel for mum and the kids- that would be suggesting unprotected industrial action)
Almost on one hand I can count the number of QF pilots I’ve flown with in the last 10 years who give a crap how much extra fuel they order or how much that costs the company. That attitude has become significantly ingrained since the bastardry of the modern QF management became evident years ago. It has become totally SOP, so it can’t be considered industrial action anyway!