After 5 hours...

[double_barrel]

OK, after a mere 5 hours here are my purely self-diagnosed weakpoints:

1. My taxiing is totally s$%t. I cannot seem to get the right instincts in my feet to keep it easily running straight and true.
2. I am holding the yolk in a death grip rather than feeling the ailerons touching the air as I know I should be. I have spent my whole life sailing boats, I think I know just what that should feel like. Can't get there.
3. I am fixating on the VSI rather than the horizon.
4. I still really have no idea what the rudder is for! I sort of randomly poke at it when I happen to see the ball has drifted off too far. Basically I 'steer' the plane with the ailerons.

The last session was kind of depressing - I seem to be getting worse not better. Instructor throws mnemonics at me with no follow-up. eg "lets look at stalling for prep we use HASELL, or was that Hassle or Hassel [?]". I subsequently have no recall of what the @#$%^ that was meant to stand for - height, away from built-up areas, secure, who knows what else. No time to ask him to repeat and forget to review after landing when he asks 'any questions' while fiddling with his phone. (OK, I just googled it. E is for engine, A might be for airframe. What does that mean? engine still running, airframe still there?)

Would it be usual to expect a 5 minute 'debrief' after landing to allow me to go over what we did and perhaps scribble some notes ?

Is this normal kind of progress? After hours 3 and 4 I felt real progress as I gained confidence and became more aware of what was happening. Now wondering if this is going to work.

[In the past I taught sailing on very complex boats to yachtmaster level. I would always start a session with review of where we have got to and end with a review of what we learned today. And on a boat the pace is slower with time to discuss each action as you do it]

But I suspect I am beginning to blame the instructor for my own failings. Maybe I need to take control a bit more?

What do you guys reckon?

[Igundwane]

Sounds like you need an instructor who takes an interest in you and your flying 👍

Time to move on I suspect. But don't give up on how crap your going is, trust me, blood sweat and tears are all part of it.

[BoeingBoy]

Hi Db,
Firstly it's perfectly normal to still be tense and confused in the early stages, and five hours is still the early stages. However from your post it's obvious that you are either not gelling with your instructor or he's not doing his job properly.

Item one just needs some practise with no pressure to go flying. Go out on the field and just do some taxying without any intention to fly. Take your time and take it slowly. You could find someone with a flight simulator using pedals just to assist in orientation but you can't replicate the real thing. Maybe your boating experience of pushing and pulling the tiller against the direction of turn hasn't helped, but if you're used to complex boats that shouldn't be an issue.

Holding the yoke too hard is perfectly normal and simply needs the relaxation that comes from enjoying yourself. It sounds like your not doing that with your current instructor so a change might be necessary.

Your instructor should have tried to wean you off dependency on instruments. Again a common mistake in the early days, but try to keep that head up and out and only refer to the instruments to confirm what you think you've set up visually.

Back to basics in turning for point four. Get your instructor to cover turning and secondary effects of controls again. I used to get students to skid in level flight one way then the other to full control deflection to give them confidence in both ailerons and rudder whilst also learning co-ordination but each instructor will have his own methods.

Finally though, don't despair. What you describe is normal for your stage, but it does sound as if you could use a change of teacher.

Good Luck.

[alex90]

Hi DoubleBarrel,

I too came from sailing tuition background, and I agree that sailing offers a lot more time for the teaching.

I dont think you are correct, instructors in aviation are a MAJOR influence on your progress. If you don't feel you can ask again what these mnemonics are, perhaps this isnt the right instructor for you.

The PPL tuition I receiced always started with a reminder of what was achieved last lesson, and a reminder of what to pay attention to on this upcoming flight. Often even combined with a little background groundschool, to make sure that I understood what the aim was, and how we would achieve that aim before even seeing the aeroplane. Then this was always followed by a thorough debrief of what we did, what was achieved and what could be improved. I was then given pointers on what I should read up on next for next week.

Everyone learns differently but this approach worked for me very well. I have since had instructors of all sorts, some with no debrief, some with marginal brief, some with quite a temper... etc... but I do find that you really need to find the right instructor for you, and your learning will be so much smoother! Dont be afraid to ask for another instructor!!

As for the taxiing, it is a smooth continuous pressure that you apply. Keep both feet on the rudder and as it is a push-pull system, you can control the amount you are turning with both feet, not just one. Do not be afraid to chop the power and use the brakes to slow down a little, take your time - I was always told that taxiing should always be at fast walking pace and no faster which will give you time to make corrections.

Regarding the yoke, I generally have a rule which is no more than 2 fingers. The plane will (to a certain extent) fly itself. You dont need to control the aeroplane in every little tiny bump, you just let it oscillate a little, similarly to sailing. If you were to overcontrol the rudder on a yacht in light-moderate swell, you will do more harm than good - same applies to flying. It is normal when you first start to be afraid and to grab hold of the yoke for your life, but try to relax, your instructor wont let you do something stupid anyway, so there is your backup!

For your early days, I would strongly recommend reading up on the manoeuvres that will be covered in the course. I used the Pooleys books, but a little theory, and a brief understanding of what will be required goes a hell of a long way. I also believe that these mnemonics are in the books too, it should give an explanation as to what you are looking for on each letter. If you spend some time learning them, and reciting them to yourself, it'll alleviate some of the stress and hopefully allow you to concentrate on your manoeuvre!

I hope this helps!
alex90

[scifi]

Well after 5 hours you are doing Ok, as for 2 of those hours you will just have been a passenger.
I also had the rudder problem, and being an engineer, I used to think out all the linkages … Push on that pedal, it tightens that cable, which pulls that bell-crank, which pulls that way on the rudder, which makes the air push the tail in the opposite direction.... All too much of a long winded thought process to be of any use.
As for the Yoke, make sure you have trimmed the elevator so that you can take your hands off the yoke, and the airplane continues with no change of altitude. That way you know that zero finger pressure on the yoke = level flight.
Best of luck with the rest..
.

[340drvr]

As everybody has said, your situation all sounds pretty normal for a 5 hour student.
Though, you're right, your lessons should include a reasonable pre-briefing, and a thorough de-brief of how you performed, what needs improvement, etc. And, as to mnenomics, they can be useful up to a point, but can be overused, too. I've actually never heard of the one you refer to, sounds somewhat superfluous to me, but either way, it will "gel" in time.
It could be that you and your instructor aren't a good match, for a variety of reasons, you shouldn't hesitate to address these concerns with him/her, any true professional should be glad for the feedback and a chance for clarifications, etc.
Most of all, try to relax, and give things time. Right now, everything you do has to be processed, taking up lots of brain bandwidth. With more practice and exposure to all the new skills you're learning, your reflexes will become better, so to speak, using your spinal cord for basic control (rudder, yoke, throttle, etc.), leaving more room for your brain to process other tasks (navigation, comms, whatever). And, as with any new learned skill set, everyone will have peaks, dips, and plateaus during the process. Good luck, have fun, way too early to get discouraged!

[Pilot DAR]

DB,

Expect, well, really, demand an effective briefing before the flight as to some of the expectations, and debriefing following the flight as to observations. For some flights I have done with other pilots, the briefing before hand took longer than the planned flight - 'saved time in the air.

Air is very much more compressible that road or water, so expect the aircraft will be "mushy" in control, compared to a car or boat. Just get used to it, it'll be just fine. That more mushy control is compensated by that reality that aside from precision relative to the surface of the runway, precision compared to driving is otherwise not required.

Similarly, brakes and steering in planes is poor compared to cars (have you looked at the size of the brake pads compared to a car?). They're sloppy things to taxi, so take you time, it'll come to you. It is mechanically not possible for cable type flight control systems to operate with the precision of car steering.

As for instruments, ignore all but: "The Ball" - very frequently when aileron or rudder is being, or should be being used, Altitude, occasional glance if you've been told to maintain it at a stated value, and airspeed, occasional glance during climbout, or approach. Everything else is a nice to know, but should not distract you from flying the plane by outside visual reference.

Use of the rudder: If the wings are not level, and/or you're using the ailerons at all, you should be aware of, and probably applying some rudder. Refer to "The Ball" above. Obviously, the object is to use the rudder to keep the ball in the middle for most flying (passenger comfort). I took a young fellow flying once, and asked what he'd like to see or do. He told me he wanted to understand the use of the rudder. I demonstrated with the application of rudder, and reference to the ball, and let him have at it. He spent about an hour totally focused on flying straight and in turns, with acute attention to the use of the rudder (I watched out for traffic). After that hour of flying, and his dedicated attention, he really did get it. So give yourself that hour of understanding the rudder, with no distraction (from your instructor).

Mnemonics: I have succeeded for more than four decades of flying while completely ignoring the use of mnemonics . Some people find them helpful, I do not. There is no requirement for you to learn nor apply mnemonics to become a good pilot. You've got to do the required actions, but if mnemonics is not your thing, find the method which works for you - which could and should be reference to a written checklist, and do that. As long as you are correctly carrying out the actions, in the required order, how you do it is up to you.

Instructors: They're people, just like us. Some are excellent, and very experienced, others not so much. Couple that with their personal interest in your progress, relative to theirs, and the "fit" could get better or worse for you. It's your money, hire the instruction which suits you. If the instructor is not putting you at ease, and creating a safe and stimulating learning environment for you, discuss that with them, and consider moving on to the next available instructors. It is a reality in aviation now, that the instructors of the day or no longer the highly skilled retired airline or military pilots, but rather new pilots themselves, for whom instructing is a stepping stone to the airline job they really want, so they don't know it all either ('cause they only know what their instructor taught them). The problem is that often they don't know what they don't know - you might be the first to know! Try to find an instructor with grey hair, it got that way, 'cause they have learned more than the basics!

[markkal]

I would not worry too much about issues impairing your progression, don't make it a fixation. I reckon general handling is worrying you the most

If I could give you an advice, go take some tailwheel training, it will develop your skills, finesse and give you a sense of control boosting your confidence. In all aspects of your handling scenarios. The proper reflexes will replace mneumonics, no need to think before doing.

If you could progress to the point of doing your solo flight on a tailwheel aircraft, after say 10 hours you will reach a level of proficiency impossible to equate even with 1000 hours of flying with nosewheel trainers. Tailwheel handling imposes you to master handling skills at the very beginning of your training. It requires an awareness of speed, altitude, energy and flight path, possible only with coordination an a soft smooth touch at the controls.. Failing to master even one of these elements will end up in bent metal, countless bounces, or and a groundloop.


Please note that I am by no means asserting that standard nosewheel training is useless, far from that. But nosegear tricycles do not care how you taxi, take off, or put them into the ground.

Too fast, bounce and land long, too slow and hit the ground hard, sideways screeching the tyres not correcting for parallax or yaw, not flaring properly or not keeping the flare long enough and slamming the front wheel on the concrete, not controlling the decelerating portion swerving left and right...Add a crosswind component and enjoy the show.

Please do not misunderstand me, I am by no means advocating against nosewheel aircraft and instructors far from that.
Show me a nosewheel aircraft e.g. during landing, touching down near the desired spot, not bouncing along, not stalling before such point at 30 cm from the ground, thus indicating proper speed control, without the wheels screeching by hitting the ground sideways during contact, without the front wheel slamming into the ground a fraction of a second after the mains meaning the flare has been kept all along the way allowing for the nosewheel to ease effortlessy into the ground. Then you have a proficient pilot. It does not matter wether taildragger or nosewheel. Rare nonetheless on nosedraggers

Unfortunately looking at the typical flight school circuits and this at vitually every airfield I have been, shows me this is not happening.
Grotesque sloppy habits develop due to improper training possible only in noswheel a/c. And they affect not only students but most instructors as well.
This lack of finesse, coordination, and soft touch is also responsible for grotesque flying habits in the air, but during landing we have it well before our eyes to enjoy the show if we care to look.

[Maoraigh1]

The OP says he is unhappy with his taxiing. In that situation going to a tailwheel is likely to make him much more unhappy.

[markkal]

The OP says he is unhappy with his taxiing. In that situation going to a tailwheel is likely to make him much more unhappy.

You have a point, but I may say it could eventually make him proactive and develop his reflexes, he says he's grabbing the yoke and does not feel the "ailerons touching the air" which suggests he has a very precise and critical analysis of his drawbacks. I would assume overreacting or failing to react to keep the a/c pointed where he wants it to go both in the ground and in the air are making him tense and depressed.

Why not try taildraggers with a different instructor, one who, at least in the air let's you keep the controls a bit more (As you seem to be wishing)
"Double Barrel", you have noticed some improvement after hour 3 and 4, so take your time.

In flight instruction, as you progress, you will eventually sooner or later reach a point of frustration, that is when after having witnessed the satisfaction of getting it right, you will screw it up at times thereafter. This is normal and has to do with consistency. It takes time.

Carry on and try taildraggers, before it's too late that you will have to remove all those bad habits gained with a nosewheel, which most pilots can live with at the expense of greater finesse in general handling. It is demanding but does wonders.

You are aware of being tense at the controls. Start with handling in the air by developing a soft and light touch , learn how to use the rudder. Then tackle the ground aspect, which is the tough part, but very very rewarding when you will finally master it. It's trial and error, alternating frustration and satisfaction until you reach a decent level of consistency

Without rudder there is no coordination, 99% of pilots and way too many instructors have the ball off on one side or the other without even realising it especially at low speeds and during turns. And at touchdown where screeching of the tyres indicate uncorrected yaw.

I am confident as you loosen up you will overcome much of your problems, and become a better pilot overall. Carry on and good luck !

[double_barrel]

Thanks all, I will stick at it!

Apart from the useful specific advice on handling, I think the message for me is that I need to demand more from the instructors (actually 2 different guys so far on 5 flights!). Interestingly, although they constantly whizz through checklists, there has been no mention of a physical list on paper, is that usual? My brain seems to absorb things better if I have some writing to refer to as well as the physical action. Anyway, I spent yesterday trawling the web and compiling my own for the key phases, I have also acquired a knee board (another item that has not been referred to by the instructors) and will turn-up with my own lists strapped to my knee and try to take a bit more ownership of the process. Including a debrief after shutting down. After all, I am giving them all of my money!

[Pilot DAR]

will turn-up with my own lists strapped to my knee and try to take a bit more ownership of the process.

Well, before you go to that effort... Hopefully, by this point, you've been introduced to the flight manual for the aircraft. Every certified plane manufacturer in the last 60 years will have one. It will contain a checklist, which really is the one an only which you should use. The only things which might be added to that would be additional items found in flight manual supplements applicable to the aircraft (ask/have a look, though don't expect much), and items unique to the operation of aircraft at that locale (specific ATC procedures, for example). Otherwise, operate the aircraft with the checklist produced by the manufacturer. Because... If you develop your own, and as a result something is different and missed, somebody will probably ask you why you did not use the manufacturer's checklist, and there's no good answer for that question! If you cannot easily copy the one from the flight manual, write it out for yourself, and make reference on what you've written, that it is a reproduction of the flight manual checklist. It sounds like work, but in doing that, you'll begin to absorb the details and retain them.

As an instructor is being paid to teach you to fly the aircraft, they should be teaching you to refer to a written checklist. If they are not, and are whizzing through a verbal checklist in their head, they are doing you a disservice in your learning. It's not their job to show off how cool they are 'cause they memorized a checklist, it's their job to demonstrate doing things properly. Later in your career, you may choose to memorize checklists, but not now, read the paper every time. And, if you do that, you can completely avoid mnemonics!

[double_barrel]

Nope. No mention of the existence of a flight manual.

[rarelyathome]

You really do need to change instructors. Stalling after 5 hrs? So they've got you through effects of controls, straight & level, climbing & descending, turning, slow flight all in 5 hrs while you are still having difficulties on the ground. As others have said, it is your money. Take it elsewhere and get good quality instruction. It is these exercises where the foundation of all your flying skills are laid.

[Pilot DAR]

Nope. No mention of the existence of a flight manual

Oh dear... That's worrisome! You'd read the instruction manual before you operated any other complex machine... Reading, or at least being aware of the existence of the flight manual, would be a good idea, and should be being trained. It'll tell you some important things, the most important of which is the limitations imposed on the operation of the aircraft - so you know not to exceed them! Otherwise, procedures for emergency and normal operation, as well as weight and balance, and performance information will be there. And, a detailed description of the systems of the aircraft, to help you make a good decision when something isn't working properly. Yes, your instructor should be "covering this" for you in the beginning of your learning, but you still should be aware!

Just 'cause I'm curious, what aircraft model and year have you been flying DB?

[double_barrel]

You really do need to change instructors. Stalling after 5 hrs? So they've got you through effects of controls, straight & level, climbing & descending, turning, slow flight all in 5 hrs while you are still having difficulties on the ground. As others have said, it is your money. Take it elsewhere and get good quality instruction. It is these exercises where the foundation of all your flying skills are laid.

Yes. Been through all that. I was OK to do each of them as separate exercises, but still far from comfortable with the whole thing. Is that unusually superficial? Last thing he said was that now I just need to keep practicing. Maybe that's an OK way to approach it ?

Oh dear... ........Yes, your instructor should be "covering this" for you in the beginning of your learning, but you still should be aware!

I am a bit surprised at no mention ever of any value of airspeed for anything. I have read a bit of theory so know what to expect for the obvious things, but I did expect everything to be dominated by awareness of IAS. It certainly is not at the moment. Maybe I am just worrying too much and they are treating the 1st 5 hours as a general relaxed intro to be followed-up by more formal stuff ?

Just 'cause I'm curious, what aircraft model and year have you been flying DB?

C172M. Don't know the year

[softshoedancer]

1)you'll get it in time.
2)you'll get it in time
3)you'll get it in time
4)I still don't know what the rudder is for
And yes, you should expect a decent 10 minute-ish debrief for your buck. But some instructors like to debrief in the aircraft. Don't forget, their time can be very limited. If you want a decent ground debrief, demand one.

[Pilot DAR]

For the 172M, after about a three second Google search, I found this:

http://www.hva.com.au/Uploads/Cessna%20172M%201975%20Model%20POH.pdf

Download it and read through. Sure, some of it may not be clear to you now, but by the time you earn your PPL, everything in this manual should make sense to you. Your instructor should be able to easily explain everything which is presented in this manual. Legally, this manual must be carried aboard the aircraft during flight. It costs nothing to sit in an aircraft which is not running, so pick a poor weather day, sit in the plane (and walk around it) with the manual in your hands, and equate everything - the manual explains it all.

Probably in your national regulations, there is one somewhere (which in all fairness, you would not yet have been introduced to) which will read something like "The pilot shall operate the aircraft in accordance with the manufacturer's manuals and checklists, and within its limitations". The flight manual/pilot operating handbook from the aircraft manufacturer is the document you refer to to comply with that regulation. If you do not refer to the flight manual, and it's checklists, and something goes wrong, an authoritative person may be asking you why you were not complying with the manufacturer's procedures and limitations. I would not like to have to answer that question myself!

Also note, that probably of little affect on the 172M you fly, there still may be approved flight manual supplements associated with modifications done to that particular plane. You would also be responsible for knowing and operating within those. Just reading only the flight manual is not enough. An example is that some modifications impose speed limitations which you would like to know about! During an approval process, I once limited a 172M with a photo door installed to a never exceed speed of 125 knots. This was because I found during testing that at 135 knots, the door shook so badly I thought I would loose it! So, there's an approved flight manual supplement for that photo door, and requirement to placard the airspeed indicator when it's installed, which I wrote. Woe be the pilot who disregards, and flies it faster than 135 knots!

Beyond the manual, I highly recommend the book "Cessna, Wings for the World" by Thompson. He was a Cessna test pilot, and explains everything about the whole single engine series. It is certain that if you read the section of that book about 172's, you will know more than your instructor about the development history of the plane, and why things are the way they are - it's fascinating.

[double_barrel]

Cool. Thanks

[custardpsc]

I tihink that you are showing a good talent for understanding your own learning curve, that will serve you well.

some comments below to assist:


1. My taxiing is totally s$%t. I cannot seem to get the right instincts in my feet to keep it easily running straight and true.

It will come. Normal at this stage. Keep at it. I had a problem as all my foot steering was learnt on soapbox carts with a beam front axle which works teh other way. Just remember right foot to turn right. Soon you will have that down but struggle with positioing the ailerons during taxi to match the wind !

2. I am holding the yolk in a death grip rather than feeling the ailerons touching the air as I know I should be. I have spent my whole life sailing boats, I think I know just what that should feel like. Can't get there.

Also normal at this stage. High workload is the main cause. Everyone says 'just hold the yoke with finger and thumb' but easier said than done. This will come. Concentrate on learning and understanding the concept of angle of attack and how much energy the aircraft has.. many parallels to sailing, you just need to find them

3. I am fixating on the VSI rather than the horizon.
Try asking your intructor to cover up the panel or, better , use pvc tape or a grease pencil to make a reference mark on the windscreen to reference the horizon so you can just use that. Forbid yourself to look inside. No need. Trust that if you have the power set correctly and the pitch set, you will fly correctly ! pitch and heading can be determined by looking out of the window.. Pick a visual reference point to fly towards for each heading you need to fly.

4. I still really have no idea what the rudder is for! I sort of randomly poke at it when I happen to see the ball has drifted off too far. Basically I 'steer' the plane with the ailerons.

Yes, also normal. Also related to the taxiing point. Tell your instructor that you need to review this and next time you roll (steer) in to a turn watch the prop spinner against the horizon, You will be suprised to see that it initially moves the wrong way in a turn. You will eventually learn the muscle memory to use the rudder to correct this but it can take a long time. Also ask the instructor to show you how to do dutch rolls, which will help build the understanding and footwork.

The last session was kind of depressing - I seem to be getting worse not better. Instructor throws mnemonics at me with no follow-up. eg "lets look at stalling for prep we use HASELL, or was that Hassle or Hassel [?]". I subsequently have no recall of what the @#$%^ that was meant to stand for - height, away from built-up areas, secure, who knows what else. No time to ask him to repeat and forget to review after landing when he asks 'any questions' while fiddling with his phone. (OK, I just googled it. E is for engine, A might be for airframe. What does that mean? engine still running, airframe still there?)

This is a workload issue and also you probably arent getting a decent preflight brief and even if you are you are probably struggling to remember and apply it. Google or PPRUNE can assist on that - here is what I use

H is for height. - sufficient height to recover safely from whatever you are about to do
A is for airframe - aircraft configured correctly for what you are going to do. Power/Flap setting etc
S is for secure - no loose stuff in the aircraft, seatbelts tight etc
E is for engine - stiil there, yes, also a quick look to make sure all gauges in the green.
L is for location - use ABC, A- Airfields - dont manouever near airfields; B - built up areas - dont manouver near them, C - controlled airspace - be aware that you may inadvertently enter it if a manouver goes badly
L - is for Lookout - most important. Look above , below and turn R & L to be sure noone is nearby


Remember, if it was easy, everyone would be pilots and we would proably have to get jobs as bus drivers.

Hope this helps

[Genghis the Engineer]

OK, after a mere 5 hours here are my purely self-diagnosed weakpoints:

1. My taxiing is totally s$%t. I cannot seem to get the right instincts in my feet to keep it easily running straight and true.
You've done five hours and probably not that much taxiing, it'll come.

2. I am holding the yolk in a death grip rather than feeling the ailerons touching the air as I know I should be. I have spent my whole life sailing boats, I think I know just what that should feel like. Can't get there.
RELAX!

3. I am fixating on the VSI rather than the horizon.
Don't fixate on anything, ANYTHING. Look out of the window, enjoy the view, just glance in occasionally when there's something you need to look at. You should spend a lot of time looking at the real, out of the window, horizon - but even then not fixating. If you have been told to watch the ARTIFICIAL HORIZON, that is very very poor advice for every lesson of PPL training bar one, and you should not have been told that.

4. I still really have no idea what the rudder is for! I sort of randomly poke at it when I happen to see the ball has drifted off too far. Basically I 'steer' the plane with the ailerons.
You do steer with the ailerons. You're still at basic effects of controls, but this should have been, or will be, covered in briefings and the notes you've been given to read.

The last session was kind of depressing - I seem to be getting worse not better. Instructor throws mnemonics at me with no follow-up. eg "lets look at stalling for prep we use HASELL, or was that Hassle or Hassel [?]".

(1) Stalling at five hours????. Either you're winding us up, or your instructor is following a somewhat unorthodox order of lessons.
(2) Any checks should have been covered in briefings and/or training notes you've been told to run.
(3) HASELL checks are in your checklist, the aeroplane manual, the training notes, and for that matter your pre-flight briefings.

Basically either you're winding us up, or you need to change instructor and/or school.


I subsequently have no recall of what the @#$%^ that was meant to stand for - height, away from built-up areas, secure, who knows what else. No time to ask him to repeat and forget to review after landing when he asks 'any questions' while fiddling with his phone. (OK, I just googled it. E is for engine, A might be for airframe. What does that mean? engine still running, airframe still there?)
EIther you are winding us up, or your instructor is utterly incompetent.

Would it be usual to expect a 5 minute 'debrief' after landing to allow me to go over what we did and perhaps scribble some notes ?
No it would be usual to have a formal debrief usually rather longer than five minutes, including you taking notes and him filling out your training record in your sight.

Is this normal kind of progress? After hours 3 and 4 I felt real progress as I gained confidence and became more aware of what was happening. Now wondering if this is going to work.
The level of progress is probably fine, but what you are describing is utter incompetence in instructing - and you will quickly bed in bad habits that do you no favours. If your recall and description are true and honest, you need a new instructor - probably a new school before these bad habits bed in. Why a new school? - because schools are supposed to standardise teaching practice across all of their instructors.

[In the past I taught sailing on very complex boats to yachtmaster level. I would always start a session with review of where we have got to and end with a review of what we learned today. And on a boat the pace is slower with time to discuss each action as you do it]
And that is what flying instructors are trained to do too. So, if your descriptions are accurate, you are at a very poor school.

But I suspect I am beginning to blame the instructor for my own failings. Maybe I need to take control a bit more?
On the contrary, (a) you are not describing particular failings on the part of a student, and (b) the instructor is supposed to be the expert and controller of the teaching and learning process.

I would suggest before walking away having a closed door lengthy discussion with the school Chief Instructor - that *may* resolve things, it may not.

G

[rarelyathome]

Yes. Been through all that. I was OK to do each of them as separate exercises, but still far from comfortable with the whole thing. Is that unusually superficial? Last thing he said was that now I just need to keep practicing. Maybe that's an OK way to approach

I really don’t believe you could possibly have been taught all of those exercises properly in 5 hours.

[piperboy84]

The absolute best publication for someone starting out learning to fly and it’s free.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/pilot_handbook.pdf

Have a read thru that skipping all the parts about the FAA and their history,licences & Regs etc and you’ll be a friggin expert by the time your done.

[double_barrel]

Thanks again everyone. Piperboy, thanks, I have not seen that, I will go through it.

Genghis and Custard thanks both, very helpful. I absolutely assure you that I am not winding you up. In fact, there are other specifics I have not mentioned that I know are bad behavior in an instructor, I have not because I don't want this thread to be identifiable to a particular instructor/school/location. The nearest to a debrief is 'any questions and put the pitot cover on as you go'. Last flight I didn't get the Hobbs reading as the instructor was too busy chatting to his mates outside the aircraft, so I wandered back, filled-in the paperwork leaving Hobbs readings blank and wandered off home. As I mentioned, I had one instructor for the 1st 2 hours, he has been away for the last 3 lessons, current bloke is younger (1,400 hours total according to the board, I assume that is instructing hours). I did get on better with the 1st bloke; there seemed to be more 'precision' in the way he communicated.

I have asked for a meeting with the chief instructor.

(Genghis, I just tried to PM you. Your quota is full)

(maybe I should add that each nominal hour is actually only 40 minutes in the air, although invariably over 1 hour on the Hobbs - I have started logging the flights with Garmin Pilot. That feels brief to me. Is that usual? The session is well over an hour but lots of fannying about waiting for clearances; it's a busy airport. When counting hours, is that normally true flying time or engine running time ?)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hours logged are brakes off to brakes on - sllghtly less than Hobbs. 40 minutes airborne for an hour Hobbs is not unreasonable.

My PM box is always full!, but you can email me via Pprune and I will pick that up.

G

[WilliumMate]

Similar experience to myself many years ago. Looking back in the log book it shows for the fifth lesson (a previous lesson was two hours) 10A/10B. Like the OP I was feeling overloaded and although performing recovery, with and without power, quite well I realised then it may be a bit too early in my training. After talking with the Chief Instructor I took a break, changed schools and progressed at a more comfortable (for me) pace.

[Vilters]

I flew model airplanes, and came into "real" aviation by becoming an A@P.
One day, I re-rigged a C-150 that did not wanna fly straight, and the instructor said: "You rigged it. Time for your first flight", and off we went.
Medical and all paperwork done, I started flying lessons. Coming from model airplanes had its advantages, but also getting used to "the real deal." was an eye opener.

After 3 hrs, I thought; "Hey this is not so bad at all."
After 5 hrs, I thought; " Damm, what am I missing".
After 8 hrs, I thought: "This is never gonna work.", The instructor opened his door, and stepped out. "Do 3 circuits and park the thing at the fuel pump." => I said ; Oh ****! ! ! !
That was winter 1979

[double_barrel]

I will try for hour 6 today! I have just skimmed through the thread above on control-column-flailing (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/612385-control-column-flailing-during-flare-dangerous-practice-some-pilots.html) - that helps me to visualise my problem with the death grip on the controls. I will work on imagining I am hold an unpleasant part of someone else's anatomy.

[India Four Two]

double_barrel,

Good luck with your lesson. Forget about the anatomy metaphor (;)) and try what I do. I fly a C182, but the technique works in any aircraft. Hold the yoke lightly with two fingertips and the thumb of your left hand. If possible, rest your elbow on the armrest.

If you feel even the slightest pressure on the yoke, then make slight adjustments to the elevator trim, until you can fly hands off, at the desired pitch attitude.

When maneuvering, I tend to use all my fingers on the yoke, but it is still a light grip, with just fingertips.

A final thought on taxiing. Ask your instructor to manage the yoke and throttle, while you concentrate on steering with your feet. I find when I've been flying an aircraft with a stick and I hop back into an aircraft with a yoke, I have this unconscious tendency to use the yoke as a steering wheel!

Also when starting the takeoff run, consciously think "Heels on the floor", so that your feet do not accidentally apply the toe-brakes during the takeoff.

[localflighteast]

I just looked back at my training and found this blog post, I think you are right on track!Major achievement – the tower no longer thinks I’m drunkAfter 7 lessons I’ve finally managed the art of being sober! Or at least looking like I am. Yes, Ladies and Gentlemen after 7 lessons, I’ve finally got the hang of taxiing the damn plane in a straight line!

[pasta]

With regard to sailing (and speaking from direct experience), and in response to your first two points: You're used to operating a "machine" that has quite a few things in common with an aircraft (wings, operating in a fluid medium), and you're used to being able to control it very precisely. When the water gets lumpy, and the wind is shifty/gusty, you anticipate how that machine is going to respond, and continue to control it precisely. Now you sit yourself in an aircraft, and beat yourself up because you're not achieving the level of control you're used to. Is it possible that you're unconsciously setting yourself unreasonably high standards?
Rather than thinking of someone learning to sail a large wheel-steered yacht (everyone knows how to operate a steering wheel), think of someone learning to helm a relatively tippy dinghy with a tiller extension. It takes a while even for them to learn which way to move the tiller. Now add in the fact that they have a sheet in the other hand, and moving either sheet or tiller seems to want to make the boat capsize one way or the other. Half the time the boat feels like it wants to capsize even if they don't move either. The only way to feel "in control" is to figure out how to coordinate the tiller and sheet, *and* respond to the constantly changing wind. That's before we've thrown in manoeuvres, collision avoidance etc, and it feels like you have to learn it all at once. Now think how "in control" your student's going to feel after 5 hours in the boat; if they're much over 20 years old, the answer's most likely going to be "not very". IMHO, that's closer to what learning to fly is like. Stick with it, you'll "get" it, and ultimately you'll have just as good a feel for an aircraft as you already do for a boat...

[memories of px]

The hardest 2 things to learn when you start are trimming and taxiing!, you at 5 hours sounds like most people, even i was like that too, now an instructor and examiner, it all comes good by 45 hours.
we charge from brakes off to brakes on, normally one hour at a time,

[double_barrel]

Thanks MoP, that cheers me up!

Pasta. I have been thinking through the sailing/flying thing, and I am sure you are right. I am unconsciously expecting to feel and handle a Cessna like a boat. But as you say, there are some huge differences - on a boat the surface in the air is 100s of times bigger than an aircraft's control surface and the rudder is in a much denser medium. You manage a boat by balancing the forces; and when maneuvering by anticipating and 'meeting' the forces. Looking at the thread on control column flailing, it dawned on me that it is physically impossible to move the 'control surfaces' on a boat like that. So even though the aircraft is not responding to all the thrashing around, the surfaces are presumably moving around in response to al those inputs, and meeting little resistance. So clearly, as someone said earlier, the aircraft controls will feel way 'mushier' than a boat's and I just need to focus on what its doing now and what inputs do I need to make to make it do what I want. It sounds trivial, but that is totally different from a sailing boat, especially a big, heavy, powerful boat like I am used to sailing.

One interesting point, when banking or turning I instinctively want to stop the maneuver with a counter-turn or counter-bank, as you must on a boat. My instructors tell me that is wrong, I should just go back to the neutral position and the change of attitude instantly stops. My muscles are beginning to believe that!

On the upside, my sailing background means I can instinctively turn onto a course, use a compass and chart and cope with all that nav stuff. I am somewhat bemused by flying's strange radio procedures, and keep slipping back to the 'wrong' order of callsigns, but at least I am comfortable with using a VHF.

Hour 6 was a huge improvement. I turned-up early dug out the physical checklists and conducted my own pre and post flight brief! In the air I focussed on not over-controlling and keeping a delicate touch. Hour 7 tomorrow!

[double_barrel]

In case anyone is interested in an update on my roller coaster ride!

I had a serious discussion with the head of the school. My feedback appears to have been welcomed, and I have switched back to the instructor that I had for the 1st 2 hours. What a difference! There is some really fundamental stuff that he made clear to me in hour 2 that was completely ignored by the other bloke, and it got lost from my brain over the subsequent >5 hours of vague fannying around. Now I can see just how useless the instruction was - there was absolutely no precision in his teaching or clear communication.

So the advice here to switch instructors was bang on, and all my self doubt and agonizing over the instincts I brought from boating was (mostly) nonsense. I just needed someone to explain to me how to fly the freaking aeroplane! Now of course I am mad at the wasted time, dosh and self-confidence. I tracked all the flights on my ipad, and looking back over the tracks it is obvious that the intensity of the work is 100x greater now, I am finding sessions demanding and enjoyable.

[flyinkiwi]

In case anyone is interested in an update on my roller coaster ride!

I am! One thing I love to do is re-live vicariously through others the wondrous journey of learning to fly. More please!

[India Four Two]

double_barrel,

I'm sure that there are many here interested in your progress.

This may be an indelicate question, but what happened to the other instructor?

[double_barrel]

This may be an indelicate question, but what happened to the other instructor?

Well, they did not go into details with me - quite properly.

But from what they did say, he is being actively encouraged to up his game. I suspect that he is being given the opportunity to do that in another establishment. I felt guilty for a while, but not after the 1st session back with a decent instructor.

[beamer]

Sympathies for your issues so far. Its not just at the starting end that these issues occur. I am trying to get back into flying after a couple years away and I have yet to come across any instructor or school that inspires me very much at all, and after forty years of flying, yes, I am reasonably experienced but still need some refresher flying and a test.

[rarelyathome]

Sympathies for your issues so far. Its not just at the starting end that these issues occur. I am trying to get back into flying after a couple years away and I have yet to come across any instructor or school that inspires me very much at all, and after forty years of flying, yes, I am reasonably experienced but still need some refresher flying and a test.

where have you looked so far?

[scifi]

Gripping the Control Column...
When I did my QXC, one of the legs was from Blackpool to the North Wales Coast, and in the Piper Tomahawk I decided to trim the thing so that it would fly hands-off, which it did for most of that route.
I now fly a C172 with rudder trim, which if set to give a central Ball, needs about 2 ounces of pressure on the right aileron to stop the aircraft doing a 60 mile radius turn.
So in all cases a strong grip is not required, and if you ever get to fly with an auto-pilot, you will wonder why the Control Column is needed at all..!
.

[Pilot DAR]

which if set to give a central Ball, needs about 2 ounces of pressure on the right aileron to stop the aircraft doing a 60 mile radius turn.

And by selecting fuel burn from one tank only, you might get that down to one then no ounces of force as the flight progresses!

[double_barrel]

Which reminds me of another daft question: If (in a C172), I have fuel switch to both, and one tank runs dry, will that cause problems? I'm thinking that since it is purely a gravity feed an empty tank linked to a full one should not cause problems. Or could there be circumstances in which I might pull-in a slug of air? I am sure that is not a desirable or likely situation, but it would be nice to know!

[Pilot DAR]

To allow the "5 hour" discussion to continue with less drift, a new thread for lateral balance discussion:

https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/613022-lateral-balance.html#post10242078

[Kolossi]

@double_barrel:

I'm a bit late to this party I know, but re the "death grip" - I think I read this whole thread and didn't see mention of a tip I got here on Pprune and still use to this day in the air (and in the car on a long motorway cruise). I couldn't get by with thumb and one/two fingers, I naturally wanted to hold the yoke with the hand. As you start to tighten the grip though, your body tenses and you get in a positive feedback loop. To break this, when you realise you are holding too tight, put a 90 degree bend at your wrists! So arms held as normal but with the wrist joint outside and next to the yoke, then wrist bent in 90 degrees, then hand, fingers and thumbs on the yoke as "normal". It turns out that in that position, it's very difficult to grip the yoke hard and as the grip therefore relaxes, you get positive feedback the other way!

Re taxiing, glad you are getting the hang of it. It took me a while too having done lots of cycling when I was young so I was pre-programmed in the reverse sense in the same way as a soap-boxing custardprc. The way I re-learnt was to use a pc sim with rudder and yoke controls. It cost me £130 on ebay, and 3 years later after my PPL was safely earned, I sold it on ebay - for £130!!!! I really really don't want to start the debate on using flight sims during training, but for that one particular thing it suited me very well. Lots on here disagree you should even fire a sim up whilst training though, YMMV. :ok:

[double_barrel]

@double_barrel:

I'm a bit late to this party I know, but re the "death grip" - I think I read this whole thread and didn't see mention of a tip I got here on Pprune and still use to this day in the air (and in the car on a long motorway cruise). I couldn't get by with thumb and one/two fingers, I naturally wanted to hold the yoke with the hand. As you start to tighten the grip though, your body tenses and you get in a positive feedback loop. To break this, when you realise you are holding too tight, put a 90 degree bend at your wrists! So arms held as normal but with the wrist joint outside and next to the yoke, then wrist bent in 90 degrees, then hand, fingers and thumbs on the yoke as "normal". It turns out that in that position, it's very difficult to grip the yoke hard and as the grip therefore relaxes, you get positive feedback the other way!

Re taxiing, glad you are getting the hang of it. It took me a while too having done lots of cycling when I was young so I was pre-programmed in the reverse sense in the same way as a soap-boxing custardprc. The way I re-learnt was to use a pc sim with rudder and yoke controls. It cost me £130 on ebay, and 3 years later after my PPL was safely earned, I sold it on ebay - for £130!!!! I really really don't want to start the debate on using flight sims during training, but for that one particular thing it suited me very well. Lots on here disagree you should even fire a sim up whilst training though, YMMV. :ok:

Thanks for the 'grip' advice. I will try that. I thought I had it dealt with until my first more-or-less unaided landing, then I realized that I was back to the death grip and over-controlling.

The rudder thing is now way better, both on the ground and in the air. I did wonder if a sim would help me to build the right instincts and to run through procedures, checklists etc in sequence at the appropriate time. Sounds like it's contentious on here! I certainly find that sitting down and running through things in my head really helps. I see a big jump in performance at the next lesson if I have done that and am really mentally prepared, compared to rushing from work, racing through traffic, dashing into the aircraft and screwing it up.

[India Four Two]

double_barrel,

I'm happy to hear you are progressing. Your story is dejà vu for me and I'm sure for many others here. Eventually you'll reach the stage where the mechanical aspects of controlling the aeroplane become automatic and you can concentrate on navigation, looking out and having fun.

With regards to simulators, my view is they are useful when learning instrument procedures, but at your stage, so much of the learning experience is dependent on the feel of the controls and you just don't get that experience in a simulator, even fairly sophisticated ones like a Redbird.

[scifi]

Double Barrel, you mention about the fuel selector switch. When this is set to 'Both' the supply pipes from each wing tank are joined together, before they go to the Carburettor. So if there is any difference in height of the tanks, the fuel will drain from the higher one into the lower one.
I parked at Shobdon one day with one wheel in a hollow, when we returned from our lunch, the left tank was overflowing and the right tank was down to half full. The fuel only moves slowly between each tank, so if that happened in flight, you would be holding progressively more aileron for S+L flight.

[custardpsc]

And the fuel selector on low wing doesn't have a 'both' because in a low fuel situation it would prefer to suck air from the empty tank , rather than fuel being drawn from the tank with fuel remaining. ...

[double_barrel]

Double Barrel, you mention about the fuel selector switch. When this is set to 'Both' the supply pipes from each wing tank are joined together, before they go to the Carburettor. So if there is any difference in height of the tanks, the fuel will drain from the higher one into the lower one.
I parked at Shobdon one day with one wheel in a hollow, when we returned from our lunch, the left tank was overflowing and the right tank was down to half full. The fuel only moves slowly between each tank, so if that happened in flight, you would be holding progressively more aileron for S+L flight.

Thanks, that is clear. I had wondered if there was a non return valve to prevent such cross-flow - in my other world we work to keep fuel tanks isolated from each other in case one is contaminated.

And the fuel selector on low wing doesn't have a 'both' because in a low fuel situation it would prefer to suck air from the empty tank , rather than fuel being drawn from the tank with fuel remaining. ...

Aha! I did not know that. Again super helpful for me to understand these things. I guess that means that a dodgy fuel gauge on a high wing is not much concern if the tanks have been dipped, but more problematic on a low wing.

[Pilot DAR]

The fuel in a Cessna which has a "both / L / R / off" type selector will flow tank to tank if the selector is in the "both" position. In "L"/ "R"/ or "off" the fuel will be isolated to the respective tank. Though nice to be able to isolate contaminated fuel, it is unlikely that you'd be able to detect and then diagnose contaminated fuel in flight. More importantly, being able to use fuel from only one tank allows the pilot to: manage lateral balance, consume fuel very accurately from tank to tank for long range fuel planning (not really much a of a factor in two tank arrangements), and allow you to burn the remaining fuel deliberately first, if that tank is leaking, and thereafter isolate the leaving tank so you don't crossfeed and leak out fuel from the other tank. I've had to do this twice. On the "both" selection, the fuel between the two wing tanks can (and will) crossfeed and equalize through the fuel selector. If a tank is full, or overflowing because the aircraft is parked on a lateral angle, the fuel can also crossfeed between the tank vent spaces. This cannot be prevented by pilot action, other than assuring that full Cessnas are parked level, or slightly right wing low. Cessna 206, 207 and 210 do not have a "both" selection, and interestingly, you have to select through the "off" position to change tanks. This spooks pilots the first time they have to do that!

Yes, the low wing aircraft do not have a "both" selection for the reason stated, and more literally, because it is a design requirement that if there is to be a "both" selection available, the tank's vent spaces much be interconnected, and this is not possible in a low wing tank, dihedral wing arrangement. I think it's a better system anyway, as the fuel is always isolated, and it forces better pilot discipline in fuel management, and lateral trimming.

Yes, the lightest possible touch on the controls. You can always firm it up if needed. Death grip is never required. If you're gripping the controls too tightly, your own muscle competition within your hand and arm will mask valuable force feedback which will be coming through the controls. Let the plane tell you what it's doing first, and then you impose your control over that, rather than in spite of it!

[Big Pistons Forever]

. Let the plane tell you what it's doing first, and then you impose your control over that, rather than in spite of it!

I use a "freeze" call when I am teaching. When the students hears me say "freeze" they are to hold the control wheel/stick lightly but steadily and not move it. This will invariable stop the airplane from flopping around and quickly restore the airplane to stable flight.

[double_barrel]

Thanks all, I am finding this really useful. I hope you don't mind if I keep throwing stuff onto this thread.

Let the plane tell you what it's doing first, and then you impose your control over that, rather than in spite of it!

That was one of the stranger bad habits I got into with the previous instructors. I was tentatively tweaking the throttle and the trim trying to encourage the plane do what I wanted, rather than actively controlling it. Having that pointed-out to me was the single most transformational instructor input I got. The new bloke watched for a few minutes then said, fly the damn plane, put the revs at 2300, put the nose where you want it and trim it. It sounds bizarre, but no-one had ever said that and I was being way too tentative.

[Pilot DAR]

I certainly find that sitting down and running through things in my head really helps

Yup. Long before I was old enough to start taking flying lessons, I had access to an abandoned Cessna 185 fuselage. It still had most of the controls and instruments. Nothing "worked", but it did in my mind. I would practice for hours, entertaining myself with my piloting prowess. When I was finally allowed to leave the ground in a Cessna, all the controls and instruments were ingrained in my mind, other than these worked! I knew the "whats" and "wheres", I just had to then perfect the "hows". I found piloting easy, and advanced pleasingly. My only delay was waiting to be old enough to take each next licensing step.

It costs nothing to sit in a parked plane, and rehearse piloting...

[simmple]

It costs nothing to sit in a parked plane, and rehearse piloting

on a rainy no flying day would send students to do that and run through checks. Saved them £s and boosted confidence the next flying day

[double_barrel]

I was prompted by the thread on circuit trouble (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/613911-circuit-trouble.html) to post an update.

I did hour 12 last weekend. I am definitely not a sky god! I guess it is going sort of ok, I have had 6 sessions of circuits with multiple touch and go's on each session. It seems to be taking forever for me to get comfortable with the approach and landing. It's always very messy. Maybe I could blame the fact that it is VERY busy with loads of traffic to watch out for and adjust the circuit accordingly, with the complexity of comms with a busy and not easily understandable ATC - I am constantly failing to hear or understand calls and the accuracy with which I am getting to and holding the desired altitude is decidedly wobbly.

The airport is so damn busy that the downwind is constantly being extended - base legs 6nm downwind are common and once we extended to 9nm downwind before turning 'base'. We invariably have to extend and then slot into the final approach among stuff including Dash 8's and CRJs. My handling of the aircraft was still pretty rubbish last time, but although the instructor did not seem impressed, I was actually pleased that for the 1st time I felt on top of the maneuvering and dodging. And to add complexity, these are right hand circuits; I have never flown a left hand circuit. So I am constantly having to look through the instructor to keep an eye on the situation. I guess (hope?!) that makes it significantly harder.

[AlexJR]

Rather than thinking of someone learning to sail a large wheel-steered yacht (everyone knows how to operate a steering wheel), think of someone learning to helm a relatively tippy dinghy with a tiller extension. It takes a while even for them to learn which way to move the tiller. Now add in the fact that they have a sheet in the other hand, and moving either sheet or tiller seems to want to make the boat capsize one way or the other. Half the time the boat feels like it wants to capsize even if they don't move either. The only way to feel "in control" is to figure out how to coordinate the tiller and sheet, *and* respond to the constantly changing wind. That's before we've thrown in manoeuvres, collision avoidance etc, and it feels like you have to learn it all at once. Now think how "in control" your student's going to feel after 5 hours in the boat; if they're much over 20 years old, the answer's most likely going to be "not very". IMHO, that's closer to what learning to fly is like. Stick with it, you'll "get" it, and ultimately you'll have just as good a feel for an aircraft as you already do for a boat...

Great advice - I fly and sail and you just have to re-write the book when you swap between the two. Boats are big and lumbering if you are used to yachts - a Cessna requires precision control/small movements.

[flyinkiwi]

I was prompted by the thread on circuit trouble (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/613911-circuit-trouble.html) to post an update.

I did hour 12 last weekend. I am definitely not a sky god! I guess it is going sort of ok, I have had 6 sessions of circuits with multiple touch and go's on each session. It seems to be taking forever for me to get comfortable with the approach and landing. It's always very messy. Maybe I could blame the fact that it is VERY busy with loads of traffic to watch out for and adjust the circuit accordingly, with the complexity of comms with a busy and not easily understandable ATC - I am constantly failing to hear or understand calls and the accuracy with which I am getting to and holding the desired altitude is decidedly wobbly.

The airport is so damn busy that the downwind is constantly being extended - base legs 6nm downwind are common and once we extended to 9nm downwind before turning 'base'. We invariably have to extend and then slot into the final approach among stuff including Dash 8's and CRJs. My handling of the aircraft was still pretty rubbish last time, but although the instructor did not seem impressed, I was actually pleased that for the 1st time I felt on top of the maneuvering and dodging. And to add complexity, these are right hand circuits; I have never flown a left hand circuit. So I am constantly having to look through the instructor to keep an eye on the situation. I guess (hope?!) that makes it significantly harder.

You've heard a lot of people talk about things taking time. One of the more important things to learn which you can only learn through repetition is how to divide your attention efficiently so that you can monitor radio calls, operate the aircrafts systems, fly it where you want it, listen to your instructor, and relax (at this stage that takes conscious effort), all at the same time. Watching your instructor fly shows you it can be done, but you need to learn the "how" yourself.

[double_barrel]

You've heard a lot of people talk about things taking time. One of the more important things to learn which you can only learn through repetition is how to divide your attention efficiently so that you can monitor radio calls, operate the aircrafts systems, fly it where you want it, listen to your instructor, and relax (at this stage that takes conscious effort), all at the same time. Watching your instructor fly shows you it can be done, but you need to learn the "how" yourself.

Yep, the difference is striking. There I am constantly fiddling with stuff and ending-up climbing or descending when I should be level or letting the speed drift off. He seems to do nothing - the plane just does exactly what he wants! I clearly still need to free-up some brain resources.

My last ****-up was failing to lower the flaps when I thought I had. I flipped the selector up to raise the flaps on the touch and go and failed to put it back to the centre position. So next circuit I reached out and put it down for a few seconds, and glanced at the indicator, but my brain was already onto the next thing so I failed to take-in the fact that I had done nothing with the flaps except move the selector from raise to off and back again! It's very strange, thinking back over it, my fingers felt the selector was wrong, my eyes saw the indicator had not moved, but I did not absorb and use the information! Ah well, I am getting more comfortable and getting more thinking time, but I sometimes think I am learning more about my strange brain than I am about flying!

[India Four Two]

db,

After a while, you will be able to sense when the flaps are travelling, due to the change in pitch forces on the yoke.

[Splashdown2]

Yep, the difference is striking. There I am constantly fiddling with stuff and ending-up climbing or descending when I should be level or letting the speed drift off. He seems to do nothing - the plane just does exactly what he wants! I clearly still need to free-up some brain resources.
double_barrel, your posts made me laugh because they mirror somewhat my experiences. When I started it felt like I'd never get the hand of taxying - why was it so hard! However, after 7 hours I had a great lesson where everything started to click. We landed and on taxying back to the apron I noticed one rather tight spot to park the aircraft, bugger I thought - this is where I mess it all up! Someone must have been looking down on me because no, I fitted it in like a pro and that was the biggest grin factor for me that day.
Needless to say, my eldest daughter brought me down to earth when I got home and I regaled my 'biggles' moment. "Great", she said. " A thousand pounds spent and you can park it" - to say I was deflated was an understatement :rolleyes:
I have just found that some lessons you feel like "What, When, oh Now" and then the next two lessons along it seems to drop into place. Aviation is a mix of science and art, I'm just not sure when the enjoyment starts and the terror ends.:)

[AlexJR]

Yep, the difference is striking. There I am constantly fiddling with stuff and ending-up climbing or descending when I should be level or letting the speed drift off. He seems to do nothing - the plane just does exactly what he wants! I clearly still need to free-up some brain resources.

My last ****-up was failing to lower the flaps when I thought I had. I flipped the selector up to raise the flaps on the touch and go and failed to put it back to the centre position. So next circuit I reached out and put it down for a few seconds, and glanced at the indicator, but my brain was already onto the next thing so I failed to take-in the fact that I had done nothing with the flaps except move the selector from raise to off and back again! It's very strange, thinking back over it, my fingers felt the selector was wrong, my eyes saw the indicator had not moved, but I did not absorb and use the information! Ah well, I am getting more comfortable and getting more thinking time, but I sometimes think I am learning more about my strange brain than I am about flying!

It took me a few lessons more than I was expecting to get comfortable landing, although it is a much shorter and quieter circuit than yours - sounds awful! The crazy thing with all of this is your mind takes on board a trickle of information at a time and then files it away. So next time you won't think about what to say on the radio, you will just say it - your flare will be just right, or your glide path will be spot on. It doesn't all fall into place at once - each element will do slowly and then you will have the capacity to learn something else. As has been said, the thought of reading a map and flying seemed ridiculous to start with, never mind asking for a basic service and listening out constantly whilst scanning for traffic! Still a lot to do but not quite the mountain to climb as it used to be.

[flyinkiwi]

Yep, the difference is striking. There I am constantly fiddling with stuff and ending-up climbing or descending when I should be level or letting the speed drift off. He seems to do nothing - the plane just does exactly what he wants! I clearly still need to free-up some brain resources.

Two comments about this.

Firstly, the climbing and descending when you don't want to be is cured by using elevator trim. Get used to trimming a lot. Any time you raise or flower flap, or change the attitude and/or power setting there will be a corresponding trim change. If you have the time and money, go up and spend a lesson on trimming the plane to fly hands off. When you get it right you can change the attitude of the aircraft simply by leaning forward or backward - it's like magic. Get into the habit of constantly asking yourself, am I in trim?, and doing something about it if you are not.

The second comment is about why your instructor appears to do nothing but the plane flies like its on rails. There is a concept you may have heard of called "flying ahead of the plane". The most basic explanation is putting your brain ahead of where you actually are so that any changes in desired flight path are noticed immediately and dealt with. Your instructor is making the tiniest of adjustments of the controls in the correct sense to keep the aircraft exactly where they want it to be. You are probably at a point in your training where you spend more time reacting to what the aircraft is doing rather than positively controlling it and making it do what you want it to do. That is called "being behind the aircraft". This is one of those things that just requires hours of stick time to learn. You'll get there one day, remember we all (including your instructor) have been where you are.

[double_barrel]

This is one of those things that just requires hours of stick time to learn. You'll get there one day, remember we all (including your instructor) have been where you are.

Thanks! I need those reminders! I know it is true - I can steer a boat downwind in a quartering sea while drinking a cup of coffee and chatting about the nav plan, while a beginner is rigid with grim determination, fighting the wheel and lurching all over the place. That's the stage I am at in flying. Summarizing my challenges and unloading on you lot helps me to crystallize the issue. eg - having thought through my flaps screw-up and posted it here, I know I won't make that mistake again!

[India Four Two]

db,

flyinkiwi has hit the nail on the head:

Get into the habit of constantly asking yourself, am I in trim?, and doing something about it if you are not.


If you are having to apply any push or pull force on the yoke, you are not in trim. Adjust the trim wheel until there is no force and you can take your hand of the yoke, without the nose rising or falling.

If you briefly take your hand off every time you re-trim, your instructor will also know that you are in trim AND that you understand the concept. Re-trim every time you establish a new pitch attitude and/or power/flap setting, but don't forget to let the airspeed stabilize before trying to finalize your trim setting. This final adjustment can be very subtle - one or two degrees of rotation of the trim wheel.

[Pilot DAR]

I know I won't make that mistake again!

And that's a very important learning tool - the screw up! Happily, nearly all screw ups amount to nothing more than a slightly less ideal or safe condition, and a learning opportunity. I can think back to hundreds of my screw ups while flying (and a few while riding right seat), and what I learned from them. What I learned stuck, as the screw up was memorable. The key is to put your faith in the aircraft itself, and the competence of your instructor in allowing you to screw up enough that you learn from it, without it actually being unsafe! You will be amazed at what the plane can tolerate in terms of errant operation, and you still get away with it. That's not a suggestion that you should try, but don't worry about imperfection either.

[Ebbie 2003]

5 hours - it takes at least 20 hours to become a sky god.

Just stick with it😊

[ms08]

Lesson three for me yesterday - powered climb and glide decent....glide decent "Recover straight and level....., Mike, we are just about to stall.....get the power in" - lesson learnt...lol - still can't steer the chubby thing on the ground...and that is taxiing :eek:

[double_barrel]

Just back from a really good lesson. Complex situations and everything was bang on...training myself so that every-time I change anything I check the P&Ts and trim.

well.... except for a near screw-up that the instructor did not notice! ATC said 'follow the dash 8 ahead'. I had been watching a dash-8 on finals, off to my right, so replied 'follow the dash-8' and was about to turn in when the instructor said, there he is follow him round. Oops. Another dash-8 was ahead.That would have made me unpopular.

[Pilot DAR]

Mike, we are just about to stall.....get the power in"

Bear in mind that a stall is an aerodynamic event, not an engine power (or not) event. Therefore the approach to stall (too high an AoA) should be corrected by reducing the AoA (lowering the nose). Though powering out of a stall may be possible, doing so is fraught with other risks, including inducing a spin with torque, or distracting/falsely reassuring the pilot to the extent that the pilot forgets to lower the nose (refer to Colgan Air Dash 8 crash). Always fly the plane first, and maintain the control you intend (being stalled is not being in control). Thereafter, apply power as needed to continue your flight. Yeah, if you're stalling at 100 feet above the ground, adding power to continue the flight is going to be pretty vital too, but first and foremost, use the aerodynamic controls to maintain the plane in controlled flight!

ATC said 'follow the dash 8 ahead'. I had been watching a dash-8 on finals, off to my right, so replied 'follow the dash-8' and was about to turn in when the instructor said, there he is follow him round. Oops. Another dash-8 was ahead.

Yeah, that happens, and has happened to me. Though you are responsible (well, your instructor, at this stage) for maintaining traffic awareness, you're being unfairly lured into an unsafe situation if your attention is being directed toward an aircraft, without your also being told that a second aircraft of the same type is nearby. I was an controlled airspace in the USA decades back, and was told to watch out for two F-4 Phantom jets on formation final crossing my path. Yeah, cool! I see them, as I watched these two smoke trail makers fly down final approach. Then two more blasted right in front of me and scared the Dickens out of me. It would have been helpful had the controller told me that there were four in total!

[Ebbie 2003]

I did the tried to taxy with the wheel choc in place thing today - and there I was thinking I was a full-on sky god😳

[India Four Two]

Ebbie, you are always an apprentice sky god. I did the same thing two weeks ago. That’s exactly 2704 weeks since I went solo!

There are many times in your flying career where you will say “Let’s not do that again!”

[ms08]

Bear in mind that a stall is an aerodynamic event, not an engine power (or not) event. Therefore the approach to stall (too high an AoA) should be corrected by reducing the AoA (lowering the nose). Though powering out of a stall may be possible, doing so is fraught with other risks, including inducing a spin with torque, or distracting/falsely reassuring the pilot to the extent that the pilot forgets to lower the nose (refer to Colgan Air Dash 8 crash). Always fly the plane first, and maintain the control you intend (being stalled is not being in control). Thereafter, apply power as needed to continue your flight. Yeah, if you're stalling at 100 feet above the ground, adding power to continue the flight is going to be pretty vital too, but first and foremost, use the aerodynamic controls to maintain the plane in controlled flight!

My brain was in mush mode. I am sure it will come. Just written some notes out as a re-fresher.

[double_barrel]

My brain was in mush mode. I am sure it will come. Just written some notes out as a re-fresher.

I know the feeling!

Welcome to the sky god wannabe thread. I like that it has morphed into beginner's therapy thread.

[jamesgrainge]

I did the tried to taxy with the wheel choc in place thing today - and there I was thinking I was a full-on sky god😳

Someone at the field I fly from taxied away with the wing tie down blocks still attached. Only ATC stopped them from getting to the runway.

[Pilot DAR]

My brain was in mush mode.

It happens to all of us, and by the time you have enough flying experience to truly know all these things, then complacency will set in, and you'll be fighting against mush mode from the other side. I find that memorable lessons are remembered best! When I teach, I allow my student to continue toward the mistake they're approaching, as their learning will come as they progress into the mistake, and begin to recognize it for themselves, rather than my preventing or fixing, and just telling them what could have happened. Hearing about something which did not happen is much less memorable than experiencing it!

Welcome to the sky god wannabe thread

I can remember wanting to be a sky god. I've learned that it's too much responsibility, I'm just happy to concentrate on flying safely and enjoying it now. The more I fly, the more I realize there is to be learned.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

If you were to overcontrol the rudder on a yacht in light-moderate swell, you will do more harm than good
I've had an autopilot do that - there seemed to be some time constant in the control loop that give us positive feedback with that day's particular waves. It really did seem to be doing its best to roll the mast out of the boat.

After discussing this with the captain for a few seconds (I had the helm when this started happening) we knocked off the autopilot and steered by hand for the next few hours.

[double_barrel]

Musing on the fact that everyone's experience is very different......

Things I have never done:

Turn left - ok that's a very slight exaggeration, but not much and not for many hours. Maybe I will crap myself when the plane leans the other way!
Seen the mixture at full rich
Waited less than 20 minutes for take off clearance
Had a lesson cancelled due to bad weather

[Weeeee]

Musing on the fact that everyone's experience is very different......

Things I have never done:

Turn left - ok that's a very slight exaggeration, but not much and not for many hours. Maybe I will crap myself when the plane leans the other way!
Seen the mixture at full rich
Waited less than 20 minutes for take off clearance
Had a lesson cancelled due to bad weather

This has been a good read and as others have commented brought back memories, you are definitely not alone.

Left hand circuits are easier for the reason you mentioned earlier, thats why you sit on the left. You'll adapt quickly. Should have seen me trying to get used to a right slipped approach when the wind was in an unusual direction, never done that much, understood the theory but muscle memory not there, all over the shop like a one-armed paper hanger.

Surprised you don't power check or take off full rich, what are you flying and has it been explained why? I seem to recall a general direction to never lean above 75% power.

Is that 20 minutes for push back / taxi, or waiting in a queue to take off while burning your cash? If the latter I would be concerned - where is this? I also note your comments about how busy the circuit is and having to extend, which doesn't help consistency at the start. I started off at a small relatively quiet field (Panshanger) with almost no delays and little other traffic to worry about, which made getting the basics right early on much easier and learning more progressive when moving on to busier places like Stapleford.

I think perhaps you have been rather lucky with the weather this year!

On taxiing, I struggled with not feeling in control to begin with. I found there seemed to be quite a delay between foot action and meaningful aircraft response so I was often late heading in the right direction and then over-controlling, just takes time to get in synch. It actually reminded me a bit of trying to steer a boat vs a car.

[double_barrel]

This has been a good read and as others have commented brought back memories, you are definitely not alone.

Thanks, I have found it cathartic!.


Surprised you don't power check or take off full rich, what are you flying and has it been explained why? I seem to recall a general direction to never lean above 75% power.

The airfield is at 5,500'ASL. So full rich is always too rich.

Is that 20 minutes for push back / taxi, or waiting in a queue to take off while burning your cash? If the latter I would be concerned - where is this?

The latter - I am concerned! Sometime have to wait >1hour for startup permission


Left hand circuits are easier for the reason you mentioned earlier, thats why you sit on the left. You'll adapt quickly. Should have seen me trying to get used to a right slipped approach when the wind was in an unusual direction, never done that much, understood the theory but muscle memory not there, all over the shop like a one-armed paper hanger.


That reminds me, my attempts to side slip in the C172 have been very unimpressive, there does not seem to be enough rudder authority to counter even a little aileron. I had a vision of screaming-in sideways while shedding airspeed and altitude and plonking it down on the numbers! That may be Sky God level? Or maybe the little Cessna just doesn't do that ?

[scifi]

Yes, the C172 doesn't loose too much more height in a side-slip. I even felt like opening the doors to loose height into Welshpool, but went around from 300 feet above the threshold instead. The low wingers are much better to side-slip, including the Tomahawk, and the wooden K8 glider is particularly good.
.

[Pilot DAR]

there does not seem to be enough rudder authority to counter even a little aileron. I had a vision of screaming-in sideways while shedding airspeed and altitude and plonking it down on the numbers! That may be Sky God level? Or maybe the little Cessna just doesn't do that ?

'Should.... Have you satisfied yourself that you have applied full rudder? I have had students in the past who told me that they were applying full rudder, and when I pressed the pedal, I was able to apply a whole lot more rudder. Yes, you should be able to come in sideways, and plonk it on the numbers, this is a skill I teach. I really like slips, as you can modulate your descent rate by applying and removing slip. Once flaps are extended, they're there.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

That reminds me, my attempts to side slip in the C172 have been very unimpressive
I once got an instructor to play side slipping with me for an hour in a C172. It didn't make an awful lot of difference to the rate of descent - some, but not an awful lot. And I didn't really get my head around the varying ASI position error in different sideslips and what slipping does to the stalling speed, so I'd want some more training before I tried to use it for anything that mattered for real.

If there's some reason to get down quickly the other approach - slow to flaps speed, full flaps, then point the nose down as far as necessary - seems to me to get you down just as fast, without the same worry about whether I'm risking a spin from deliberate low slow out of balance flight. Not pretty, though, if anyone's watching.

[India Four Two]

GTW,

Speeding up works, but then you arrive over the threshold with a lot more energy, which translates into a longer ground run. For example, if you are approaching at 65 mph and then accelerate to 75 mph, the energy has increased by one- third!

Pilot DAR raises a valid point - the rudder pedal force can become quite high and it is easy to think you have reached the limit. I've always found Cessnas (152, 172, 177 and 182) easy to side slip. I'm lucky that the 182 that I currently fly has the old 40º "barn door" flap setting, so slips are rarely required.

One tip from me is don't do slips while carrying non-pilot passengers - you can scare them - ask me how I know!

[double_barrel]

'Should.... Have you satisfied yourself that you have applied full rudder?

Good point. I thought I was applying full rudder, but I have learned to doubt myself! I will try again. As you say, it is a skill that could be very useful.


And I didn't really get my head around the varying ASI position error in different sideslips and what slipping does to the stalling speed, so I'd want some more training before I tried to use it for anything that mattered for real..

Another good point. The C172 has only one static port which is on the port side, so I guess that leads to ASI anomalies when slipping. I had not thought of that or had it pointed-out to me. I assume that presenting the port side to the direction of travel increases static pressure and so reduces the apparent airspeed while the other way does the reverse?

[double_barrel]

Hi all. An update triggered by a new round of frustration!


I am approaching 20 hours. Almost everything seems to be coming together really well. I now seem to have plenty of time to do everything I need to. I am hearing all the radio calls and replying appropriately. All that stuff that I memorized but could not recall under pressure is now coming naturally. I feel relaxed and comfortable on the controls and my speed and altitude is pretty much bang on throughout the circuit

BUT!!! I cannot land the !@#$%^& thing! My landings are consistently terrible and I don't know why or what to do about it. The approach is perfect. I am reliably crossing the threshold a hair over 60Kn with 20 degrees of flap, I feel completely in control, and then it goes to rat****. I usually kind of hang there maybe 20' above the ground, loosing airspeed and wondering what to do next! My instructor tells me to 'flare' much more aggressively, it's true I am not pulling back, but I think it's more about timing the flare than actually doing it! If I do it too high or aggressively we drop down like a ton of bricks (or maybe I just fear we will?), if I do it too late we fly into the ground. I cannot get that right. I have watched so many freaking youtube videos on how to land a 172!, but I am not getting it!

Any thoughts from your collective wisdom gratefully received!

[scubawasp]

Try it with full flap?

Wait for the ground rush?

Look towards the end of the runway?

But seriously, if you have had the same instructor every time, do some circuits with a different instructor (it does'nt mean that your current instructor isn't any good). Sometimes a different perspective is needed. Or just the correct words that make it all click in your mind.

[India Four Two]

db,

Remember that judging the flare, is a learned skill, just like the other skills you have learned in your first 20 hours. Once you’ve learned how to do it consistently, you don’t even think about it. I remember when I first started teaching in gliders, I had trouble breaking down the skills and judgment necessary.

Good advice from scubawasp. Use full flap, then you can reduce your approach speed. There are hardly ever circumstances where you need to use less than full flap for landing. Even with 20° of flap, 60 kts sounds fast to me. Check the manual for the flaps-down stall speed (Vso) of the particular 172 you are flying and then multiply by 1.3 to get a full-flap approach speed.

I’ve seen Vso of 43 kts on the Internet, which gives an approach speed of 56 kts. Bear in mind that Vso in the manual is for operations at gross weight. Vso at typical training weights will be slightly slower. Your calculated speed may need to be adjusted in gusty conditions. You should discuss this with your instructor.

As an aside, I’ve noticed when being checked out in various places, that training organizations or even individual instructors often add a few knots to the approach speed “for safety”. I think this is a bad practice and often leads to new pilots having difficulties landing and can contribute to “wheel barrow” landings and occasionally nose-wheel failure.

As far as judging the flare, try getting your instructor to fly you down the runway at flare height, to get the “sight picture”. Once you start your flare, deliberately transfer your gaze from your aiming point to the end of the runway. If you notice that you’ve left the flare too late, you’ll need a more aggressive but still smooth pull on the yoke. If you have flared too high, a smooth and relatively small increase in RPM will help reduce your rate of descent.

[AlexJR]

I had exactly the same issue, every week for like 2 months - exercise 12/13 (i.e. circuit bashing). I'd always flare too early so the plane would bump down - it is always later than you think.

My instructor was very patient but ultimately it is something you learn through practice. The best advice was perhaps to plan to fly down the runway - no need to execute a short field landing during the first 20 feet. If you plan to fly down the runway and slowly descend then you get a feel for it. Then next time you'll find yourself eating-up less of the runway etc. Worst case, you go around - no harm done!

[double_barrel]

Thanks all

The best advice was perhaps to plan to fly down the runway - no need to execute a short field landing during the first 20 feet. If you plan to fly down the runway and slowly descend then you get a feel for it. Then next time you'll find yourself eating-up less of the runway etc. Worst case, you go around - no harm done!

That sounds like good advice. In fact I was coming to that conclusion from the other comments above. I think I am focussing to much about arriving on the numbers with the engine at idle, I will try to pick an aiming point a couple of 100' down and not worry too much about getting it down in a hurry. There is a ton of runway to play with - 4,800'

[AlexJR]

Have you tried many glide approaches? You aim for the half way point and then when you think you can make it, cut the power. Generally end up between the half way point and the threshold.

Great way to hone the pitch-speed-altitude relationship and still comes in handy when far too high on approach...

[golfbananajam]

My instructor, many years ago, noticed that I was trying to land it and failing in much the same way you describe. He got me to pull the power completely off as I started the flare and then to try and keep the plane flying. First attempt was a bit rough but I soon got the hang of it. the secret really being to try and NOT land it, try to keep it flying. If you climb again you're either too quick or have too much power set but don't fight it or you'll end up with a PIO

Whatever you do, don't worry too much, we've all been there

[Charlie Zulu]

Many years ago I also had trouble with landing and whilst my instructor was away doing his ATPL exams (this is in the old CAA days) I had a part-time instructor who noticed this and decided to fly the entire length of the runway in flare attitude just about the runway. This "fixed" the picture in my mind and what you know? I solo'd the week after. PS. We had 2,500 metres of runway available. Maybe worth considering.

[CharlieJuliet]

Get your instructor to do 2 landings - watch carefully and repeat. As above - the picture says all and it is a 'learned skill'.

[Maoraigh1]

Some people learn nothing by watching someone else landing. (e.g. me.)
What sorted my landings was being passed to an excellent instructor, who figured oou what I was doing wrong, but, instead of telling me what I was doing wrong, gave me instructions on doing it right.

[rcsa]

Another vote for learning to land by not landing. After a frustrating and spine-jarring session, my (superb) instructor in Zimbabwe, (who went on the be the youngest 747 skipper in the world) got me flying the length of the runway with just enough power to maintain 5 or 10 feet altitude, a few times; then brought me round and told me to chop the power. Lo and behold, a smooth landing.

[double_barrel]

Thanks again all. Several people talk about chopping or adjusting the power during the process. I almost always have the power at idle early in the process, usually as I cross the threshold, sometimes even before that. I think that puts me under unnecessary pressure to put it down now. I will try delaying that final power chop, and flying down the runway for a few 100 feet to change my mentality from land now to land eventually! I hope that will allow me to change my perspective, switch focus to the middle distance and land later as you guys all suggest.

Some people learn nothing by watching someone else landing. (e.g. me.)
What sorted my landings was being passed to an excellent instructor, who figured oou what I was doing wrong, but, instead of telling me what I was doing wrong, gave me instructions on doing it right.


That's me too! I have to do it myself!

Flying this afternoon! Will report back!

[AlexJR]

Far too novice to say whether this is correct or not, but I am always at idle once "I know I can make it" which is generally at or just before the threshold (or over the trees just before the runway!).

[double_barrel]

Flying this afternoon! Will report back!

Meh :ugh:

------

[scifi]

I used to fly gliders from a very grassy strip, and could tell when the wheel was about to contact, as we could discern individual blades of grass rushing past, level with the seat. Any higher and the grass just looked like a green blur. For Gliders on the ground you are only 8 inches agl. but for the C172s you are nearer 36 inches agl. Which requires some adaptation.
.

[mary meagher]

Hey, double barrel, sounds to me like it would be useful for you to spend a WEEKDAY at a gliding club....are you anywhere near London Gliding Club? or the midlands? And learn to land a glider. .....there is no alternative to landing a glider.....it won't take off again, so the procedure is simple. And can be translated into a nice controlled touchdown. Furthermore no distractions like radio, other traffic, going around, whatever. You would then discover that landing is very easy if there is no alternative...! First, the approach, at the recommended speed. Then the gentle roundout, in stages, so that when you are about to tickle the grass, you are in level flight. Keeping the wings level, just above touchdown. No drama. NO RADIO, NO ATC, no bother.

[The Fat Controller]

Flap 20 = FLOAT

Get some more flap down, I never quite mastered landings until after I had to revalidate my PPL after working overseas for 2 years.

My instructor, who flew many types up to C130 (Herc) in size, bollocked me on my first approach when I tried to use 20, saying "why do you think Cessna gave you 30, THAT's for landing"

Once you get it trimmed and on speed, the flare is much easier.

Also, practice a few missed approaches with full flap, the trim change is a bit of fun and if you really want a laugh, find an old C150 that has 40 degrees available and go around at maximum weight, that'll concentrate your mind.

Have fun, relax and enjoy it.

[rolling20]

My old CO would berate me something terrible as I porpoised on landing. It wasn't until someone said 'when the runway is all around you, look out over the nose and flare'. 'What do you mean flare'? said I. 'Pull back on the control column' , said he, and I was cured! My multi instructor used to say on landing, 'don't go and ruin it all now'. No pressure then!

[Con_G]

So I don't post here very often, but this thread has inspired me to put some fresh batteries in the keyboard and type something out, it's brought back so many fond memories, just had to say something.

I'm just a lowly PPL weekend warrior with a mutli. I've had my PPL for around 8 years with some lapses from flying requiring a check flight here and there. I'm not an instructor so I won't offer any specific flying advice, more of advice from an (ex) student to another.

Where to start...

Firstly, the first solo, not sure if you have done it yet, but if not, enjoy it, savour it, write down some detailed notes about how you felt, both beforehand, during and after. Take a photo of the plane once you've parked. Its the one flight you'll always look back on and remember, record as much of it as you can so you can relive it. The things I remember about mine were arguing with my instructor about not being ready to solo, sitting in a plane on my own while on downwind thinking to myself "I'm actually doing it, I'm flying a plane, I can't believe it, this is friggen awesome", and the smile I had on my face for about a month afterwards.

Mistakes, they happen, it's expected even, make as many as you can now with an instructor next to you, I found it's a really good way to learn. My last mistake was just this last Saturday, flying a twin (so expected to be a bit more professional) I was inbound to a class D, weather was good, it was my home base, no significant traffic and the flight was easy so no real excuses, made my inbound call, gave my type and call sign, my alt, the atis code and my intentions, and as I let go of the PTT button I felt like something was off with the call I had just made. ATC didn't respond as quickly as usual while I ran over the call in my head, when I realised I forgot to state my position, DOH. Not a biggy (I've made worse but I'm not putting em up here) my point is mistakes will happen. And as a side note, I think instructors get off on pushing us beyond our limitations and forcing mistakes, I bet they sit around at the end of the day having a laugh about us.

Don't get hung up on things that don't click right away like taxiing or landing (probably more nav related stuff by now), they will come with time and it will eventually click, It may not seem like it now but it will. Everyone has something they have issues with. When I was at the later stages of my PPL I overheard two instructors discussing another student who was ready to solo except they just couldn't/were scared of go around's. And the number of stories I've heard of people who just couldn't get their landings right I've lost count of. For me it was operating into and out of uncontrolled airports, I just couldn't get my head around how all these planes flying around an airport uncoordinated weren't bumping into each other up there, and I was scared that I was going to be the one to make that mistake that would cause me to bump into someone. This was after I had obtained my PPL as well, so I asked my instructor if we could do an hour or two of theory on that. It clicked for me after a conversation which went like this, Me: "But how am I suppose to get into a busy uncontrolled airport?" Instructor: "Uncontrolled airports are never busy". When I heard that all my fears where gone. And to this day those words have rung true, never have I come across more than two planes at an uncontrolled airport, and one is usually on the ground taxiing. I still prefer the guiding voice on the radio though.

Lastly, don't get hung up on how long it takes you to learn something, and don't compare how long it took you to solo/RPL/PPL to other people, everyone learns at a different pace and alot of the time it's because of things out of your control like weather/frequency of flying. e.t.c.

Not sure how far you have come since your last post, but if you're still at it hang in there and don't sweat the small stuff. Oh and one more thing, something weird happens when you become PIC, when its all on you, everything you have been taught just seems to click and come together like magic, you'll see.

Since you haven't posted I'd (and I'm sure many others) would love to hear about how far you have come.

P.S. Just wanted to add something, you mentioned you had trouble with all the radio jargon. Two bits of specific advice I can give, firstly with the phonetics (Charlie Oscar November, that type of thing) start trying to use it in everyday life, when your driving say the letters of the licence plate in front of you, when you're in one of those situations where you have to spell something out on the phone to someone, try to use standard phraseology, for example instead of saying "B for Bob or S for Sam", say "B for bravo and S for Sierra". I've even got my daughter learning these, but all she knows is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, She's nine! Secondly when I was doing my training I had a scanner in the car hooked up to a voice recorder that would record all the radio traffic while I was at the airport. I'd listen to this afterwards when I could and tried to visualise where the traffic was and what they were doing.It helped me alot. Nowadays you can just use any number of online resources/apps to do the same thing. Sometimes when I'm bored I like to listen to atc.net while watching flighaware and seeing the planes get guided around.

[AlexJR]

Some great advice and just reading the thread made me think back to that big day...having tried to cram in the first-solo just before the August break and stuffing it completely (i.e. not being signed-out), then coming back for a second try rested with no pressure. Remember my feet shaking on the pedals! Good inspiration in the future when you need some "yes I can" positive thinking.

[double_barrel]

Thanks for the useful comments and suggestions, always good to know that my experiences are not unique! It has been very helpful to download on here - I do feel isolated with no contact with any fliers other than my instructor during a lesson. I have not yet solo'd. In fact I have not flown since my last post because work commitments have had me traveling a lot - I am writing this in St Louis airport waiting for a flight to Minneapolis, what fun! My instructor keeps reminding me that I am totally ready to solo, except my landings are not safe. I definitely have a wall to break through there, but I am absolutely determined to get through it. I guess that my next flight will be tough having not flown for something like 2 months. I feel ready to solo. The landing thing seems so trivial, and everything seems so easy until I F!@#k up those last few seconds.

[Pilot DAR]

Think of landing as requiring the following elements:

Arrive over the threshold at the correct speed and altitude. This sounds basic, but you'd be amazed how many pilots arrive 10 knots too fast, or 20 feet too high, and then wonder why the landing went wrong. If you're worried about being too slow, know that you can still safely fly a nice landing at 5 knots slower than what the flight manual says, but aim for the flight manual speed. My preference is always a full flap landing. I've owned a 40 flap 150M for 31 years, and the only time I land less than full flap is the occasional practice for a zero flap landing. Other pilots differ, but I always land full flap, and doing so has never complicated my landing.

Keep the plane over the centerline, and aligned with the runway. Do what you have to do, including having one wing low, it does not matter if you touch one mainwheel first.

Now, as you reduce the power to idle, the plane is going to land, it cannot sustain prolonged flight with no power. Smoothly, gently try to prevent the landing by steadily raising the nose - imagine that the runway is really hot, and you're trying not to touch it until the last minute. Let the plane settle on on its own, maintaining the nose up. You're gently pulling on the control wheel to do this - never push the control wheel during a landing. Relax the pull a little if you need to to modulate your attitude or height above the ground, but never push! If you hear the stall warning horn, and you're only a foot or two over the runway, hold that attitude, and wait, you're about to kiss the plane on.

Once a wheel touches, maintain the track along the centerline, and do not release the pull on the control wheel. Indeed, were you to be flying my C 150, I would mentor you to maintain the pull so as to keep the nosewheel light for as long as possible. If the nosewheel touched as you had the control wheel pulled gently against the stop, I would compliment you. You do not need to have the nosewheel on the runway to steer, if you have enough airspeed to hold the nosewheel up, your rudder is still effective enough to steer. The rudder will steer the plane on its mainwheels very well at runway speeds.

Two things to avoid:

Allowing the nose to rise and fall, select the best attitude for the speed you're flying, and either maintain the pitch attitude, or increase it a little as you flare, and reduce power. And, don't let the airplane wander laterally across the width of the runway - use the rudder and ailerons to keep the plane in the middle. Your instructor is not going to allow you to fly in wind conditions such that you cannot keep the plane aligned on the runway.

As an aside to the foregoing, and having recently discussed this with an instructor colleague, ask your instructor during your upcoming lessons (appropriate to the maneuvers being flown) to experience moving each of the controls to its stop. Examples of this could be full nose up applied after the mainwheels ore on the runway, full nose down for a moment while breaking a stall, full rudder and aileron during a sideslip at altitude. It's important that you know that you have full control, and you can use it! During my type training on the DC-3, the instructor was very clear to draw my attention that the control wheel goes nearly all the way around - something like 175 degrees of rotation either way from center, and I should use all of this if I need it, rather than not using full aileron which I could have needed for full control. During checkouts, I've have a pilot migrating across the runway laterally. "More rudder" I'd say. "I'm pressing the pedal" I'd hear - then I'd press it more! So learn what control is actually available to you!

[cavuman1]

I agree with you, double_barrel - there are some really good tips on your thread. Pilot DAR's landing advice immediately above is spot on. Forty-two years ago when I was learning to land, my flight instructor would wait until I was two or three feet above the runway's surface, then he would say (with gentle but increasing volume) "Patience...Patience...PATIENCE!" I would hold the control yoke to its aft stops for a smooth touchdown. We would squeak on, then go around for another approach and landing. On one attempt, just when I thought I had almost mastered the art of landing, I strained to look over my left shoulder to ascertain the height of the left main above the runway. My instructor reached over, grabbed my chin, yanked my head 90 degrees, aligned my eyes to the runway heading (it was 07 - I remember), and shouted "DON'T EVER DO THAT AGAIN!" This was the only time he had ever screamed at me, and I never did that again! "Look down the runway - get the big picture!", he would urge. I did and it was good advice.

Six months later, I had soloed and was about to schedule my check ride. I had played a round of golf at my club on Sea Island with a good friend whose grandfather had started a Swiss chocolate company. One of their candy bars is suffixed with -one. We were paired with the CEO's of Shell and Exxon. Fine gentlemen and both were pilots and good golfers. My friend and I won the match, barely and with no "foot wedges". Instead of going directly to the nineteenth hole, we decided to have a "fly off" - the best three landings won a pitcher of Tanqueray martinis. My friend begged off, but my flight instructor gladly joined us as an impartial judge. It was a scuddy overcast day with 10/10 coverage at 12. The wind was straight down all 5,000 feet of 22, gusting to 15 knots. We were flying the flight school's new and well-maintained Cessna 172. Exxon went first and made a good landing, a really good landing, and a wave off/go around. Royal Dutch executed a poor attempt, a pretty good try, and a cat-on-glass. With my instructor/judge in the right seat, it was my turn. Three squeakers in a row! As my multi-millionaire passengers reached from the back seats to congratulate me and pat my shoulder, my instructor looked at me with a mixture of pride and disbelief. As we taxied back to our hangar, he whispered "Where did that come from?" "Patience, patience, patience!" I replied. The martinis were just perfect...

Thinking that I was the super genius pilot of the millennium, I decided to go flying the following day. As I taxied to the runup area of 33, I need to make a sharp right turn. I turned the control yoke to the right. Nothing happened! 35 hours of training down the tubes! Then I remembered that one steers an aircraft with rudder and differential braking!

My point being this - be patient! One day it will all come together. That day, however brief, will find you beaming as the Master of the Universe that you are... :D

- Ed

[India Four Two]

Me: "But how am I suppose to get into a busy uncontrolled airport?" Instructor: "Uncontrolled airports are never busy".

An observation about Con_G’s post. This is not always the case. Last year I flew in a friend’s RV-6A from Calgary to Douglas, Wyoming to see the total eclipse of the sun. When we arrived, there were several aircraft arriving from all directions and three in the circuit ahead of us.

There were about 200 aircraft on the ground, ranging from ultra-lights to Citations.

Afterwards there was a rush to get away, with the jets in the vanguard - time is money, particularly if you’ve chartered a jet! We left about an hour after the eclipse and there were six aircraft ahead of us on the taxiway. The departures proceeded efficiently and safely with appropriate and informative radio calls from all the pilots. What I found interesting was that nobody bothered with their registrations. The call signs were all descriptive - “Blue and white Cessna”, “Red low-wing”, “White Citation”, etc. Very practical.

[Maoraigh1]

": "Uncontrolled airports are never busy"."
​​​​​​Flying strip Fly-ins can be busy. Fly-ins at uncontrolled airfields can be VERY busy, more so than controlled airfields with commercial traffic. No IFR long approaches. All VFR, all light aircraft.

[Gipsy Queen]

If I could give you an advice, go take some tailwheel training, it will develop your skills, finesse and give you a sense of control boosting your confidence. In all aspects of your handling scenarios. The proper reflexes will replace mneumonics, no need to think before doing.

If you could progress to the point of doing your solo flight on a tailwheel aircraft, after say 10 hours you will reach a level of proficiency impossible to equate even with 1000 hours of flying with nosewheel trainers. Tailwheel handling imposes you to master handling skills at the very beginning of your training. It requires an awareness of speed, altitude, energy and flight path, possible only with coordination an a soft smooth touch at the controls.. Failing to master even one of these elements will end up in bent metal, countless bounces, or and a groundloop.

This is a post from a while back but as one who started ab initio more than sixty years ago on an Auster J/5, I regard the advice as particularly sound. Of course, much will depend upon whether you wish to learn to fly or whether you wish to attain a degree of competence sufficient to obtain the PPL. They are not at all the same things. Without question, the taldragger will equip you not only with skills not to be gained from nosewheel stuff but will enhance your overall capability and competence and these equate to additional safety.

With quite a few hours on the Beech 18, I was amused by Markkal's reference to groundloops!

[150 Driver]

Really ?

Sandown this year, sunny Mayday bank holiday, not a fly in

Two on final , one on base, three downwind, two on crosswind, the world and her husband deadside descending ...

[double_barrel]

Update as there seems to be some interest in my struggles!

Amazingly, the first flight after 2 months away went like a dream! I have suspected this before, but now I am convinced, I benefit from a break in sessions. With time, things seem to settle in my brain and the actions seem to come more naturally.

My landings are still not great, but so far we have managed to re-use the aircraft! Have tried all combinations of flaps from non to 40deg. I loved the 40 flaps landing, I am not sure why they insist that flaps 20 is the 'normal' and 40 is for short-field landings. It took more faffing about with the throttle to keep it flying on the approach, but it settled beautifully when I chopped the throttle. Not tried a late go-around with 40 degs of flap, I imagine that will be interesting.

I will be in Australia for a week or so later in January, looking for a chance to try gliding, as several people have suggested, I think that might be fun and helpful.

[Tortoise]

I really struggled with landings too and was embarrassed at how many hours it took me to go solo, especially as at the time I was working with military pilots who usually took less than ten hours. The day after my solo, I escaped from my office to the nearest squadron tea bar belonging to one of the RAF display teams to scrounge a coffee. One of them found out that I’d been solo (at last) and told absolutely everyone else who then came to congratulate me. I asked why he’d made such a big fuss about it when it was such a small deal compared with their levels of experience. He replied that each one of them had only ever done one first solo, and that they could each remember it no matter how many years and thousands of flying hours had elapsed since. A really kind gesture and I finally felt proud of the achievement!! And they all reassured me that it didn’t matter how slowly I was progressing- I WAS progressing and I was enjoying my flying and that’s all that mattered. Wise words.

[Sam Rutherford]

Landing? The only part of flight that's obligatory - your job is to just delay the inevitable as long as possible. Just hold her off and wait, and wait, and wait - all good things...

Enjoy! :)

[Pilot DAR]

He replied that each one of them had only ever done one first solo, and that they could each remember it no matter how many years and thousands of flying hours had elapsed since.

Yes, you'll always remember your first solo. It is possible to have more than one though, mine were 30 years apart.

[Tortoise]

Agreed- my second "first solo" wasn't quite such a success though as I managed to ding the prop on landing and dented my confidence considerably. It caused an awful lot of paperwork and demonstrated that 3.5 hours in a taildragger does not necessarily undo the habits of 140 odd hours flying non taildraggers especially when the workload goes up unexpectedly. Lots of human factors involved so an interesting exercise in a way- but one that I would rather forget :O

I guess the first FIRST solo is the most truly memorable for most!!

[Pilot DAR]

3.5 hours in a taildragger does not necessarily undo the habits of 140 odd hours flying non taildraggers

'Truth in that! Happily, my second first solo was helicopter, while I remained a very current fixed wing pilot.

[Piper.Classique]

Nope, there is only One first solo.
Mine was in a Cessna 152
I did fly other flying machines solo. But they were not first solos. How can they be?
ASK 13
Lots of single and two seat gliders
Super Cub
Other tailwheel types, some with only one seat.
Sirocco microlight. First microlight (it's only got one seat)
lots more three axis microlights
Hot air balloons, including a hopper
Powered parachute
Autogyro.
I've also aquired along the way type qualifications for weightshift microlights and hot air dirigeables, without actually going through the formality of flying them.
But you can only do ONE first solo. So enjoy it!

[flyinkiwi]

It caused an awful lot of paperwork and demonstrated that 3.5 hours in a taildragger does not necessarily undo the habits of 140 odd hours flying non taildraggers especially when the workload goes up unexpectedly.

I had my first taste of traildragger in a Cessna 170. The majority of my ~200 hours are in 172s, I think that lulled me into a false sense of security because in the air it behaves very similarly to a 172. By the end of the 30 minutes I was able to perform a takeoff without prompting from my instructor, but landings... well... he had to take over on all of them. The touchdowns were not a problem (the 3 point landing attitude is essentially the same as the 172 landing attitude) but the twitchy direction changes requiring ever increasing amounts of rudder as the aircraft slows was just too much for me. The 170 just loves to ground loop and you needed to be further ahead of it than I was. Good times though.

[Pilot DAR]

But you can only do ONE first solo.

I politely differ; my fixed wing CPL only constituted a student pilot permit to fly the helicopter (helicopter is a separate license), so a signoff for first solo was required, making it my second first solo. This would also be the case for a helicopter pilot taking fixed wing training. A float rating also requires solo flight to complete the rating, and that requires the authorization of the instructor, though as it's still the same license, I'm not sure that counts the same way.

Though I've drifted the topic, sorry. Tailwheel flying, like driving manual transmission, is it's own reward in operating pleasure. Take whatever opportunity you can to gain that experience.

[double_barrel]

Tailwheel flying, like driving manual transmission, is it's own reward in operating pleasure. Take whatever opportunity you can to gain that experience.

Sounds fun, butI think I will wait until I have reliably good directional control at touchdown - otherwise it could get expensive!

Interesting comments about student pilots not using all the rudder range they have available, but believing that they are. I may be suffering from that syndrome, will try to really kick it about on approach to make sure I have the full feel.

[Sam Rutherford]

Only one first solo.

Only one time you are alone in the air by yourself for the first time - all subsequent solos (different types etc.) remain subsequent, ie not first...

[flyinkiwi]

A comment regarding flap use. I recommend you read the aircraft's pilots operating handbook or flight manual in the section labelled Normal Procedures and see what it says with respect to flap settings for a "normal" approach. Based on my rather sketchy memory of the 172M manual I think it will say something like: "flaps 0 degrees to 40 degrees as required". That means you may use any flap setting you want and not put the aircraft out of limits assuming you have the airspeed under control. Of course, your instructors word is LAW when it comes to operating your aircraft. Does your aircraft have the 3 position flap toggle switch (up travel, neutral and down travel) or the notched gate (a jagged slot with kinks for each flap setting)? If it is the former I fully understand your instructors motive for getting you to use 20 degrees. I am blessed with big hands so I use my right thumb to push and hold the throttle fully open while using the fingers to toggle the flaps up when doing touch and goes in the clubs 172M. A third hand would be nice to have in those situations but we make do. :ok:

[Tortoise]

Regarding the original poster’s comment about feeling isolated during training (#105), I think the best part of learning to fly is that you become part of a club forever. Even before finishing my PPL, I could talk to any other pilot from student to veteran, glider, fast jet, rotary, recreational, airline or whatever and still have that camaraderie and sense of belonging. It really is a very special experience. Even though I don’t fly now, I will always be a pilot- albeit a very rusty one right now!! And I am very grateful to all the instructors and other pilot friends who encouraged me to persevere and finish my training. Good luck, and enjoy every minute of it!

[Pilot DAR]

Of course, your instructors word is LAW when it comes to operating your aircraft.

You should certainly pay close attention to what your instructor tells you about flying. However, it is important to recognize that the flight manual is actually the most authoritative document about operating the aircraft. The information in the flight manual was gathered by factory or regulator test pilots, and is approved as a part of the type design. For a greater understanding of this process (and some really entertaining reading) I highly recommend "Cessna, Wings for the World" by Thompson. He was a Cessna test pilot, and the stories he relates in that book are both enlightening, and entertaining. There are many answers in there to questions most pilots have not yet thought of.

Contrary to frequent discussion, wheelplane Cessnas are easily and safely capable of a full power overshoot with full flaps extended, it's a requirement for certification. If you need to go around, even after a bounce, open the throttle, and fly the aircraft away safely. As time and workload permit, retract the flaps to the climb, then retracted settings, there's no rush. If the aircraft would not climb away with full flaps, it would not be certified. In particular, older electric flap Cessnas had a nasty habit of blowing a fuse (pre circuit breakers) when the flaps were retracted. This happened to me a couple of times, and I assure you that changing a fuse is far too high a workload to be considered during an overshoot. You just climbed away with (or nearly so) flaps, and dealt with it at a safe altitude - you did confirm the presence of spare fuses as a part of your pre flight check - right? Yes, I once did takeoff and fly home with full flaps, 'cause I did not have a replacement fuse. It was slow, but I had no problem.

Of course, fly the aircraft as stated in the flight manual, and in accordance with good training, but know that around the edges, there are still margins of safety for you - Cessnas are not fire breathers.

[double_barrel]

A comment regarding flap use. I recommend you read the aircraft's pilots operating handbook or flight manual in the section labelled Normal Procedures and see what it says with respect to flap settings for a "normal" approach. Based on my rather sketchy memory of the 172M manual I think it will say something like: "flaps 0 degrees to 40 degrees as required". That means you may use any flap setting you want and not put the aircraft out of limits assuming you have the airspeed under control. Of course, your instructors word is LAW when it comes to operating your aircraft. Does your aircraft have the 3 position flap toggle switch (up travel, neutral and down travel) or the notched gate (a jagged slot with kinks for each flap setting)? If it is the former I fully understand your instructors motive for getting you to use 20 degrees. I am blessed with big hands so I use my right thumb to push and hold the throttle fully open while using the fingers to toggle the flaps up when doing touch and goes in the clubs 172M. A third hand would be nice to have in those situations but we make do. :ok:



The manual says:

Wing flaps -- as desired!


It is the 3-position toggle flap selector.

[Pilot DAR]

The manual says: Wing flaps -- as desired!

Well... the flight manual will say a little more than that, how much more depending upon the year of the 172.

Referring to the flight manual for a 172S (the more recent, and more rigorous):

In section 2, Limitations: Approved Takeoff Range - 0 to 10, Approved Landing range - 0 to 30. And, there are speed limitations for flaps. It actually is the law that you fly the aircraft within its limitations.
Section 3, Emergency Procedures, has a number of references to specific flap position for emergency situations.
Section 4, Normal Procedures, mentions flap position in several places, and has a paragraph devoted to flap settings.
And, Section 5, Performance, has many references to flap position, as it relates to performance (how much runway you're going to need).

So yes, the 172 has a lot of freedom as to the flap position you may select, and advice on how much for when - but it's not open ended, so you have to read and understand the flight manual to know.

[double_barrel]

Well, I seem to have made a step improvement. Landings are now reliably OK and suddenly I seem to have the thinking time and the view of the runway that I need. Use of the rudders is still not optimal - but I am hopeful that will come now. In fact now, I am heartily sick of circuits and think I would benefit from doing something different.

I don't know what changed, I am not aware of doing anything particularly different, I just seem to be more in control. However, one thing that I did which I am sure helped a great deal, was to very deliberately take time to prepare for the next session - go over check lists, and think through the process. Last year I was racing to and from lessons and not doing much in between. This may sound strange, but I am used to finding stuff coming easily to me and always being 'good' at whatever I try! Admitting that I need to put some serious work, thought and prep into flying is my 2019 resolution! I know that sounds arrogant, but I think that I just was not allocating sufficient 'life bandwidth' to making this happen, and hoping to get through by my natural genius !:hmm:

[Planehazza]

Been reading this thread for a while and some very good information. I'm starting my NPPL (M) lessons in just over a week and suffice it to say I'm very excited. I've been studying the theory for over a month with the aim of getting a head start.

OP, good luck with your imminent solo!

[double_barrel]

How to land a C172 !!

As a student struggling to find time to fly consistently and having had something of an epiphany, I thought I would have the temerity to share my newfound understanding of how to land!!!

It seems to require:

1. Arrive at the threshold at the right speed and height
2. Chop the power
3. Fly it down the runway – do whatever you need to keep the nose up and just off the ground. The objective is to not quite land. As you slow, the control movement required to do that becomes more extreme.

That’s it. Looking back, I really don’t know why I struggled with this and why it took so long to become instinctive. I can try to blame my instructor who never really put it like that, I was being told for example, ‘pull back --- no! Not that much!’ or ‘pull back --- no, really pull back ---- more!’ I worried that I was not judging my height above the runway accurately – but it turns out that is not at all critical, and it meant I was looking down rather than forward. I worried that I should know how much control movement to put in at each point – but it turns out that is stupid, just do what is needed to hold it off.

Anyway, all you instructors, please be aware that there are students out there like me who need to have the bleeding obvious explained to them in the right terms!! I sometimes wonder if someone who found a skill difficult to acquire makes a better instructor…..?

[Gipsy Queen]

I sometimes wonder if someone who found a skill difficult to acquire makes a better instructor…..?

Back in medieval times when I was learning to fly and spin recovery was an essential element within the training syllabus, I had considerable difficulty in maintaining an awareness of the aircraft's attitude relative to the ground. My instructor, who I considered very good in other respects, failed to acquaint me with the "bleeding obvious" and it was left to me to accidentally discover that putting my head back when inverted and focusing on the ground allowed everything to fall into place - simples! Even with block bookings at £3/17/6d per hour (which at the time was about 1/3rd of a week's wages), the failure of the instructor to teach me this elementary trick proved a needless expense.

I hope the experience made me a better instructor.

[Pilot DAR]

I was being told for example, ‘pull back --- no! Not that much!’ or ‘pull back --- no, really pull back ---- more!’ I worried that I was not judging my height above the runway accurately

When I'm teaching landings, particularly on the water, the pre-landing briefing will be that once the flare is begun there will never be a "push" on the flight controls, the the ailerons and rudder will be used to keep the plane aligned with the runway. Then, the patter at the beginning of the flare, through to touchdown will be something like: "pull, pull, hold, hold, hold, pull, pull, hold hold, pull, pull, hold, hold...." until the plane touches nicely, upon which I will remind to continue the pull. If the student is pulling too much, or too quickly, I will quickly say "hold" to stop the pull.

In the most ideal circumstances, which was a local lake, so ice for miles in all directions, I was able to talk my 18 year old cousin through several very nice landings within her first hour flying the 150. In that case though, there was no need to keep the planes aligned with any runway (it was everywhere), and I was controlling the power, so I could stretch out her flare if I needed to.

Try to prevent the aircraft from touching, while not providing enough power for it to sustain flight!

[double_barrel]

Try to prevent the aircraft from touching, while not providing enough power for it to sustain flight!

Exactly! Obvious when it's obvious. Painful when it's not.

[India Four Two]

Pilot DAR’s technique of “pull pull hold hold pull pull” is exactly what I was taught in the Dark Ages and it is what I think I do to this day - never push on the stick during landing, except of course, after the main wheels touch down during a taildragger wheel-landing.

What caused me to say “I think I do” was an experience I had last year. I flew as a passenger with a highly experienced pilot who I’ve known for years, in two different aircraft - one with a stick and one with a yoke. On both occasions, I noticed that his pitch control during the flare was extremely “twitchy” with quite noticeable fore-and-aft movements. I don’t think I do that, but then I’m not looking inside the cockpit during the flare. I’m planning to set up a camera to see what I do.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed this behaviour in themselves or other pilots?

[Maoraigh1]

I've often flown in a tailwheel aircraft, with a pilot who does good landings, who does that. He learned on a C150, and was taught to gently move the control to feel for the ground. At the time he converted to tailwheel, no instruction was specified.
After soloing from gliding on a taildragger, my landings got bad. I was passed to an instructor who fixed the problem in a few low-level circuits.
Keep aircraft in middle of runway, keep fuselage in line with runway. After roundout, go around, making sure the throttle is fully closed. Do NOT land.:)

[Fly-by-Wife]

Just what I've been saying for years - "aim at the runway, miss for as long as possible"!

FBW

[double_barrel]

Yay! Finally! 1st solo. Best landing of my life!

[Pilot DAR]

Very good Double Barrel! Satisfying, isn't it! Now.... the learning really begins!

[Megaton]

Congratulations. You’ll never ever do another first solo again!

[double_barrel]

Thanks guys. I was very stressed during the looooong wait for take off clearance, but as soon as I released the brakes it all went beautifully.

It's been a frustrating wait to solo with constant interruptions and delays due to work travel and beurocracy. As you say, now the learning really starts.

[India Four Two]

Congratulations, double_barrel.

Did you glance across at the empty seat? I remember that was a very bizarre experience.

[double_barrel]

Did you glance across at the empty seat? I remember that was a very bizarre experience.

What really struck was how much lighter and livelier it felt. Especially the rudders, for the 1st time they just did what I wanted immediately - I wonder if the instructors feet not being there was part of that!

[double_barrel]

Update in case anyone is interested..

First solo cross-country at the weekend. That was fun! Weather was marginal which really put the pressure on, flew through some quite heavy rain with the cloud base closer overhead than I would have liked.

Destination was a dirt airstrip and on the 'inspection' pass, I chased a troop of baboons away. I still have a mountain of theory hanging over me, it's always easier to find time to fly than to study!

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x1280/whatsapp_image_2019_05_26_at_15_04_05_4817b98b8918565177c90f ecc789dc09125dd810.jpeg

[Planemike]

double barrel............ Are you in the Rift Valley ??

[double_barrel]

double barrel............ Are you in the Rift Valley ??

Yep. That picture is looking SW down the rift towards Lake Natron.

(The destination was 3,400' lower than my starting point)

[double_barrel]

I thought I would resuscitate this thread thread to say that I finally did it! I passed my GFT and I am now a PPL :ooh:

There were times when I was ready to give-up, there were some long interruptions due to work travel and other commitments which disrupted the rhythm. Looking back over the thread is rather strange, I can't actually think of a lot I have actually learned in the last 15 months apart from a bit of theory and some motor skills. But somehow I have gone from yanking the controls all over the place and having no time or bandwidth to take-in anything except one urgent task, to planning ahead and having time to chat about the weather and moan about ATC.

Now, serious question, what next ? I want to try a complex a/c, night flying and instrument flying. Still just for fun, but I want to keep working on my skills and being as safe as possible if I fly with passengers. Should I get a bunch of hours in now? Or reasonably quickly try the next thing?

[Pilot DAR]

Congratulations DB! Next, find a nice grass runway with a taildragger for rent, and build you basic skills in that, then move on to more complex types!

[longer ron]

Well Done DB :)

[Saab Dastard]

Well done that man.

Hard in the winter months, but if you can, keep flying as regularly as possible even if it's not " complex a/c, night flying and instrument flying", as you will keep your skills level up. You can't get enough practice landing! Try setting targets, like plan a flight to a different airfield every time you go flying, or a route you've never flown to, even if it's starting and finishing at your home field. Small challenges build your confidence incrementally.

SD

[longer ron]

Maybe not so hard in the winter if DB is still flying in Kenya Saab D :)

[cavuman1]

What you have just accomplished, double barrel, I did forty-two years ago. I hope you are filled with the same joy and sense of dream fulfillment that I was all those decades ago! I will assure you of this: you shall never feel the same about the sky or yourself. As Leonardo da Vinci predicted -“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.” CONGRATULATIONS!

- Ed

[double_barrel]

Thanks all!

Maybe not so hard in the winter if DB is still flying in Kenya Saab D :)

In fact the weather is horrible at the moment, low cloud and constant rain and likely to stay like that until Christmas! When the weather settles, I plan to take some leave and bash my way around some of the smaller - but not too dodgy - grass/dirt airstrips.

Pilot Dar, I admit I am a bit nervous about tail draggers, not sure I am ready and it could get expensive if I screw-up.

Thanks again everyone for acting as my therapists over the last year and a half, I think I should now close this thread......

[India Four Two]

DB,

i thoroughly agree with Pilot_DAR’s recommendation - you should definitely move on to taildraggers. You are ready even if you don’t think so. Remember that many people in the past started learning to fly on taildraggers and some even do so now.

With the right aircraft and the right instructor, you will get the hang of it quite quickly and what you learn will stand you in good stead for the rest of your flying career.

More years ago than I care to admit, I was in the same position as you. I had just finished my PPL on a tricycle-gear aircraft (Piper Colt). I had two flights in a Chipmunk, to do the required spinning exercises. I remember at the time thinking that I would never be able to fly one. However, a few months later, I was in a University Air Squadron, being taught to fly one!

I went solo after five hours, probably a bit longer than was necessary, but the RAF system required me to do all the pre-solo exercises.

So go for it, you won’t regret it. Complex aeroplanes, instrument flying, etc. can come later.

[longer ron]

Thanks all!
In fact the weather is horrible at the moment, low cloud and constant rain and likely to stay like that until Christmas! When the weather settles, I plan to take some leave and bash my way around some of the smaller - but not too dodgy - grass/dirt airstrips.



Same here in Scotland DB - but it will be a wee bit colder than where you are flying presently :)
Since early summer here it has been a bit of a struggle just to stay current on gliders LOL (combination of weather and family stuff !)
Hope you have fun doing some strip bashing :)