Have airline pilots been shortchanged on sick leave entitlements? [Archive]

Rated De

17th Aug 2018, 06:19

https://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace/more-than-a-million-workers-short-changed-on-sick-leave-20180813-p4zx5v.html

The Fair Work Commission recently pulled the rug on the standard practise employers used of providing an average of 76 hours of paid leave based on the average 7.6-hour work day and the national minimum standard of 10 days of sick leave a year.

Sources inside Qantas suggest the Short Haul pilots have been shortchanged for a number of years, with both the responsible pilot union and company aware. Are other airline pilots short changed too?

With a legal finding supporting the incorrect calculation what will the union responsible for Qantas pilots do?

Stationair8

17th Aug 2018, 06:59

Rated De

17th Aug 2018, 07:05

Non rat employee, but was recently asked to supply a medical certificate for an URTI day.

Likewise they will no longer accept a medical certificate written by a pharmacy, physiotherapist etc.

Mentioned this to my GP after a game of tennis, he said it was an easy fix do you want a certificate for 5 or 7 day’s, a 14 day one would involve a nice bottle of red.

From a source at QF.
Effectively whilst the pilot is 'paid' a trip credit for example the equivalent of 6 hours flying the TOD might be say 11 hours.
Qantas have 'decided' that they will deduct 11 hours from the 76 hours. Therefore were the pilot to fall sick on bigger duty days their ANNUAL sick leave quotient is expended in around six or seven days not 10.

Qantas it would seem owe their pilots a substantial amount of compensation.

wombat watcher

17th Aug 2018, 08:16

From a source at QF.
Effectively whilst the pilot is 'paid' a trip credit for example the equivalent of 6 hours flying the TOD might be say 11 hours.
Qantas have 'decided' that they will deduct 11 hours from the 76 hours. Therefore were the pilot to fall sick on bigger duty days their ANNUAL sick leave quotient is expended in around six or seven days not 10.

Qantas it would seem owe their pilots a substantial amount of compensation.

Rated De, you are a navel gazer of the first order.
In both longhaul and shorthaul, sick leave entitlements ,in terms of days are well above the community norm and the applicable daily credit that applies in the credited hour pay system are the result of many NEGOTIATED EBAs.
So why don’t you stick to a subject you might know a little bit about, your navel.

Rated De

17th Aug 2018, 08:31

So do Qantas deduct from a pilot's sick leave (76 hour) entitlement, a pattern credit or a duty credit?

If it is the latter, is it not plausible that a pilot ill on 11 hour duty days deducts this from the allocated annual 76 hour bank?

A simple yes or no.

Which is precisely why the FWC ruled the way it did, for many categories of employee work more than an 'average' 7.6 hour day meaning that the short haul pilot who emailed the summation, is correct: lose 11 hours of duty from a 76 hour bank and the ANNUAL sick leave is 6.9 days.

By all means continue with the insults but please refute the calculation.

Keg

17th Aug 2018, 08:34

wombat watcher

17th Aug 2018, 09:05

Angle of Attack

17th Aug 2018, 09:28

You could have a 4 day trip worth 45 duty hours and pay 16 hours go sick on that BAM! there goes about 60% of your annual leave entitlement in 1trip, for one sickness, there’s a reason sick leave is an issue in SH and this is what it’s all about. your wrong wombat.

goodonyamate

17th Aug 2018, 09:40

wombat watcher

17th Aug 2018, 09:57

I stand corrected.

RealityCzech

17th Aug 2018, 10:43

Interesting case. Probably need to wait for the Federal Court appeal before getting too excited. Some pertinent questions could be:

- How many duty hours do pilots average per week or per 4 week roster? Less/more than 38/152?
- What is an average day’s work in duty hours?
- How many duty days do pilots average per week/per 28 days?
- What is an average day’s work in duty hours after taking into account that pilots might average less than 5 days work per week/20 per 28 days?
- To what extent is URTI relevant?

But note that pilots are not shift workers for NES purposes.
Probably better to move to a days-based system,

Troo believer

17th Aug 2018, 11:27

You’re an Idiot Czech,
seriously stupid. First you want to confuse the matter by posting several topics within the same context. Average hours for a short haul pilot between 150-190 per 28 days. More than a 38 hour week on average. URTI not relevant ? Tell the Medical branch at CASA. What an ignorant response. An URTI requires a grounding by a Designated Medical Examiner representing CASA. It’s a licence requirement and not a point of conjecture or debate but fact. Why it has to cost money to be sick in short haul I’ll never fully understand. Do you want crook pilots on the flight deck? Irresponsible to turn up with a virus and infect the other pilot and compromise the safety of the aircraft but no it costs us money! It’s a licence requirement to sign on fit for duty. That means well rested, not under the influence of a drug or medication and able to perform at the best of one’s ability. Read the CASA regs. These rules enshrined in legislation have been around since Pontious was a pilot and yet you want to question them using industrial leverage. Once again you’ve shown yourself as being ignorant and quite frankly a joke. I bet you have a blue background ASIC. Not even qualified to be on the tarmac.

RealityCzech

17th Aug 2018, 11:44

Short haul pilots are averaging 190 duty hours per 28 days? That’s impressive.

Transition Layer

17th Aug 2018, 14:33

Sick leave is being discussed as part of the SHEA. Management know very clearly that it’s one of the contributing factors to many crew leaving the 737 fleet and subsequent churn. I suspect it’ll be sorted soon.
I wish I shared your optimism Keg. Management might know it, but if it costs money to fix it then they’re not interested!

AerocatS2A

17th Aug 2018, 21:47

Do QF pilots really only get 10 days sick leave?

Fantome

17th Aug 2018, 22:02

AN ASIDE - I have been long retired from the argy-bargy of contract negotiations. (AFAP committee member). BUT . . . . it amuses me to see here, by several posters , that the robust , abusive denigration of supposed feebler minds is ever present.
(Why use sweet-oil and a feather when you have a great effing Claymore in your kit?)

One day in Chandos Street - "excuse me Mister President . .. . but with all due respect . . .. you are full of S***."

FYSTI

17th Aug 2018, 22:35

Do QF pilots really only get 10 days sick leave?

Possibly less, could be down as low as SEVEN days off per year.
Here's how it works. A typical recent 2 day trip (typical representation of what actually happens in the real world)
Day 1 Four legs 11:15 TOD, stick 5:55
Day 2 Three legs 8:55 TOD, stick 5:00
------------------------------------------------------
Trip total 20:10 TOD, Stick 10:55

Go sick on that trip, 20:10 is deducted from your 76 hour DUTY hours of sick leave per annum. So in this case, it only takes 3.5 of these style of trip (7 days total) and you are out of sick leave for the year.

There is a seperate category for URTI, with 3 days per annum with 28 DUTY hours, non-cumulative with a Doctors certificate that must specifically state URTI. However, for administrative reasons the duty must be less than or equal to your URTI duty hours remaining.

So, in the case above, you have an URTI, 20:10 is deducted, with, therefore 7:50 URTI remaining from your 28. If your next duty is URTI is for a duty of 8:00, you cannot access the remaining 7:50, and thus, the 8 hours is deducted from your 76 personal leave. No pro-rata is available. Therefore, in effect, it is very difficult to access all the 28 DUTY hours of URTI.

AerocatS2A

17th Aug 2018, 23:05

That is surprising.

We get 21 days + 6 URTIs. Call sick for a single duty and you get one sick day deducted, regardless of the length of the duty. I have something like 200 sick days in the bank, the thought of running out would never occur to me. QF pilots have it better than me in other respects, but the sick leave is surprising.

FYSTI

18th Aug 2018, 00:32

That is surprising.
QF pilots have it better than me in other respects
Financial is likely the only advantage, and only because you flog yourself with 100 hours per 28 days. Consisting of working 18 or 19 days per 28, all long days (11:00+ hours) and either an early start or late finish. The financial was at the cost of no lifestyle. If the entirety of your existence was to live & breath flying, either at an airport coffee shop (unpaid), doing a preflight (unpaid) or flying SYD/MEL/BNE, for which you were well remunerated then you could not find a better flying job. But don't get sick and wait 20 years for a command!

Keg

18th Aug 2018, 01:24

I wish I shared your optimism Keg. Management might know it, but if it costs money to fix it then they’re not interested!

Depends on whether the cost to fix it is less than the $$$ spent on churn with people deserting the 737at the earliest convenience.

Rated De

18th Aug 2018, 02:15

WW, you are deducted DUTY from your 76hrs, and paid CREDIT. It’s rort of the highest order, and if possible, I’ll think you’ll find any pilot who has ever been on SH will be going for compensation!

It is a rort and with the FWC commission providing the framework the question remains whether the pilot union will actually do anything?
Our source on this one repeatedly stated neither the company nor the union had any desire to address it.
What the FWC ruling does is set up the framework for a finding against Qantas.

The amount of compensation due pilots at least one Australian carrier will be substantial and Qantas IR will be petrified if anyone actually pursues it.

And while we are at it,

Go sick on that trip, 20:10 is deducted from your 76 hour DUTY hours of sick leave per annum. So in this case, it only takes 3.5 of these style of trip (7 days total) and you are out of sick leave for the year.

As the calculations provided by FYSTI confirm, the deductions we postulated where annual sick leave totalled 6.9 days was very close to correct.

Apology not required, but please do some research.

Keg

18th Aug 2018, 02:32

You need better sources....

Our source on this one repeatedly stated neither the company nor the union had any desire to address it.
.

.... because this one is full of crap.

Day 1of SHEA negotiations included AIPA representation on SH sick leave. Discussions I’ve had with QF Flight Ops management would indicate that they too know it needs to be sorted out.

Perhaps instead you consider the trustworthiness of your ‘sources’ because so far they’ve steered you wrong on multiple occasions.

What i I don’t get is why you are always on PPRUNE sowing FUD. If you’re the analyst or advisor to some investment firm as you’ve previously made out to be why do you give two hoots what SH sick leave or whether it’s being addressed? Or maybe you’re not who you purport to be and just being a massive dill.

maggot

18th Aug 2018, 02:48

Oh management have known it's a problem for a long time. Doesn't mean they care nor are motivated to fix it.

morno

18th Aug 2018, 03:15

I used to work for a budget carrier in Oz, and if you went sick for a trip, you simply got 1 day (or the appropriate days you required) deducted from your sick leave bank. You then might have been put on standby or another duty that covers the pilot who has since covered your duties.

Why any company would take the entire lot in hours that you were going to do is beyond me :confused:

FYSTI

18th Aug 2018, 03:30

Why any company would take the entire lot in hours that you were going to do is beyond me :confused:
Because they could! Would you believe me if I said the current system is actually an improvement compared the old system? Because it is. Under the old system if you were sick on a trip you got equivalent of base pay. If you wanted to get paid for being sick you could simply come in and work on your days off, if you could beg, borrow or steal a suitable trip. In other words, no fly, base pay.

That is still the system for loss of flying. If you are taken off a trip due cancellation, training etc, no trip pay, just base. You are quite welcome to put yourself forward, and you do get priority for unallocated trips (opentime).

That folks is why the forecast is for a near 100% turnover on the fleet in the next two years. The training load is going to be crippling to the system for the foreseeable future. As an aside, a LAME commented to me yesterday that their General Manager has been around the network. The suggestion is that they are not going to make the same mistake that Flight Ops have with demographics and getting behind the training curve. At least one department looks like being proactive about the future.

"Man looks in the abyss, there's nothing staring back at him. At that moment, man finds his character. And that is what keeps him out of the abyss."
Hal Holbrook

Keg

18th Aug 2018, 03:39

Oh management have known it's a problem for a long time. Doesn't mean they care nor are motivated to fix it.

I don't expect the SHEA will give voted up if it's not! I get the impression that Flight Ops management is well aware of that. Well maybe it could get voted up but that just means it's 'cost' to the company in other ways.

Rated De

18th Aug 2018, 04:43

"Man looks in the abyss, there's nothing staring back at him. At that moment, man finds his character. And that is what keeps him out of the abyss."
Hal Holbrook

Corporations do not reflect, they are not required to. It gives the 'office holders' the plausible defence of following procedure.
It is incredible to think that maybe the unions do not seize on the opportunity to leverage a rare moment where the system provides more symmetry for labour.

I wish I shared your optimism Keg. Management might know it, but if it costs money to fix it then they’re not interested!

Which is precisely why QF IR will attempt to nobble this in the Federal Court.

Beer Baron

18th Aug 2018, 07:05

Our source on this one repeatedly stated neither the company nor the union had any desire to address it.
Your source is either woefully uninformed or an intentional ****-stirrer.
I’ve spoken directly to the company pilot negotiators and the AIPA negotiators and both of them have told me the complete opposite of that statement.

Rated De

19th Aug 2018, 07:47

Your source is either woefully uninformed or an intentional ****-stirrer.
I’ve spoken directly to the company pilot negotiators and the AIPA negotiators and both of them have told me the complete opposite of that statement.

The individual concerned was at the table when the change occurred.
If there is an appetite to change it then surely the FWC ruling provides considerable leverage.

From the point of view of affected pilots, then one would hope the appetite for change includes recompense for pilots wrongly deducted sick leave.
A change without compensation is hardly an admission that the company is incorrect and right now they will be planning the court case to ensure that the status quo is maintained.
The pilot negotiators won't be part of that discussion.

For all affected, hope you are right and they change it for the betterment of all

ddrwk

19th Aug 2018, 22:40

The individual concerned was at the table when the change occurred.

How is that relevant to the current negotiations and your assertion that no one is interested in moving away from the existing system?

Rated De

20th Aug 2018, 05:29

How is that relevant to the current negotiations and your assertion that no one is interested in moving away from the existing system?

Welcome ddrwk.
Would it be that they are now 'interested in moving away from the current system' because they knew the umpire would rule this way?
Can't imagine any modern airline management volunteering to address a problem that costs them millions of dollars? If they have an 'interest' in fixing it, the FWC is likely the reason why. Qantas would already have legal opinion.

What ought happen is that any person wrongly credited the 76 hours and then being debited duty time, have a valid claim to compensation and without any further 'spin' be compensated. That won't happen. One would hope the union representing the pilots is right now preparing the motion to get the Federal court to rule. You can bet Qantas is preparing the groundwork, if it hasn't already.
Short changing the pilots by simply abandoning the current system and replacing it without compensation is not a legal redress for what the industrial umpire found.
As FYSTI demonstrated the abuse has been systematic and likely affects many hundreds of workers and indeed Qantas pilots..