Su-27 airshow crash [Archive]

BEagle

27th Jul 2002, 15:10

Appalling accident.

What happened? It would appear that in a high G manoeuvre, something happened which caused what looks from the videotape like a departure in roll to the left. Imagery of the flight immediately beforehand seems to show brown smoke trailing from the port engine. Certainly if there was a catastrophic failure of the port engine at high G and low IAS, a departure as evidenced would be highly likely. Post departure recovery action by the crew seems to have been effective initially, with the ac being flown at high G in an attempt to avoid hitting the ground but also with significant yaw - which could have been the result of the port engine being unable to develop sufficient thrust to allow the ac to accelerate sufficiently to avoid the accident whilst the starboard was at full thrust.

Condolences to all involved.

Yozzer

27th Jul 2002, 17:42

That`ll be the Board of Enquiry over then, eh Beags!

Sad day:(

YOZZER

Flatus Veteranus

27th Jul 2002, 17:55

These things do happen. When you go to an air show you accept an element of risk. But why was the manoeuvre performed heading towards the spectators? This takes us back to John Derry and the DH110 at Farnborough in 194? where I was a very shaken young spectator on "the mound". After which disaster the rules for display flying were tightened up. Well not really - they were written for the first time. Condolences to the nearest and dearest of the deceased. And sympathies to the crew who banged out successfully and have got to live with this catastrophe.:(

DB6

27th Jul 2002, 20:55

Flatus, it looked like the manoeuvre was planned to be parallel to the crowd but the yaw BEagle describes meant that the aircraft ended up in the wrong place. The pilots must be in hell.

HectorusRex

27th Jul 2002, 21:12

FV, our paths must have crossed that terrible day in 1952, when I also was present as a spotty uniformed youth.

As a group we were all rounded up after the accident and pressed into service as crowd control marshalls.

It was a VERY long day and night before we boarded our coach and returned to the wilds of Buckinghamshire.

In retrospect it might be a good idea for all high performance display pilots and organisers to have a compulsory viewing of such a disaster.

Captain Kirk

28th Jul 2002, 06:52

Beags - Get real! Supposition city! Familiar with immediate post departure recovery actions on the Su 27 are we?

There is an emerging theme to airshow crashes though:

2 x Fulcrums at Farnborough 1993(?)

1 x Flanker at Paris 1999

1 x Flanker in Ukraine

One has to question the display content and work-up criteria of FSU participants given a track record like this.

FJJP

28th Jul 2002, 07:13

From the BBC...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/38161000/rm/_38161724_ukraine2245_shukman_vi.ram

STANDTO

28th Jul 2002, 08:42

The BBC news clip is very, very sobering. I think some good points are made at the end with regard to western display rules, and whether that would have made any difference. The only thing is, when a wing clips at 3-400 kts, the resultant cartwheeel could go anywhere.

Pre Ramenstein airshows were certainly more exciting, but as you become older, wiser and more aware, one certainly appreciates the reasons why the flightline is nearly half a click away.

My thoughts are with all those people, whose lives have changed forever.

BEagle

28th Jul 2002, 11:32

I do wish that some of you would read posts more accurately.

No where did I make any direct statements; merely conjecture having re-run the Sky pre-departure clip several times..... On which asymmetric engine smoke is clearly evident.

PPRuNe Radar

28th Jul 2002, 12:23

Captain Kirk ...

You missed out all the Western types and warbirds though

Flatus Veteranus

28th Jul 2002, 18:12

Hectorus Rex

1952 eh? You must be right. Neville Duke was holding the Hunter for take-off when the disaster struck (having recently bust the World Airspeed Record). He waited for a quick runway inspection and then went off and did his full display to distract the crowds, most of whom had no idea of the magnitude of the catastrophe in terms of spectator casualties. 12 out of ten for coolth!

Remember now I was on leave waiting for my Meteor conversion at Driffield, and had the whole family with me. They suddenly lost a lot of enthusiasm for my fledgling career as an aviator! I began to wonder about it, too. I can still remember those two Avons in ballistic trajectory ploughing into the crowd.

I was touched in the parish church this morning (an even-numbered year and no "R" in the month!) when the Rector prayed for the two pilots as well as the bereaved spectators' relatives.

Scud-U-Like

28th Jul 2002, 23:51

It seems the Ukranian air force has got the right idea about accountability:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2157572.stm

I can't imagine senior RAF officers being arrested in similar circumstances.

Pete O'Heater

29th Jul 2002, 05:57

Dear BEagle...

I agree with the comments made earlier...
How about (for once) just reserving stupid comments, you know c**k-all about the SU-27! For all we know the aircraft may have had a fly-by-wire fault, been mishandled, suffered control restriction/damage etc, etc...
Fine to comment on the accident but spare us the in-depth BEagle expertise for a change!

oldpinger

29th Jul 2002, 06:08

:mad:
P'O-heat,

To put it bluntly, Ziplip and get a life, I would suggest jetblast for comments like that. If you're going to cr#p on about peoples posts, have the good grace to read them first.

I also am no expert on the handling of an SU-27 but have a professional interest and will listen to other peoples opinions, before rubbishing them out of hand.

Note also that I wouldn't presume to question your expertise in the matter.....

Have a nice day

BEagle

29th Jul 2002, 06:08

.........and good morning to you too!

The observations I made were purely that and did not purport to explain the tragedy. Your intemperate post stated "How about (for once) just reserving stupid comments, you know c**k-all about the SU-27!"

Which particular comments did you feel were 'stupid'?

Jackonicko

29th Jul 2002, 09:26

Two questions.

What was the briefed base height? (looked like the entry height to that last manouvre was very low)

How many hours had they flown in the last 28 days/three months/year?

How many died at Farnborough in '52?

Why can't I count?

Surly Bondslipper

29th Jul 2002, 10:05

A horrible accident, but what about those Russian seats though, eh? It was reported that the Yanks were looking into buying some, as being better than any escape system in current Western service. Anybody know if this is happening?

HectorusRex

29th Jul 2002, 10:11

I think the total number of deaths Farnborough'52 was 27 or thereabouts, including the crew of Derry and Richards.:(

rivetjoint

29th Jul 2002, 10:34

I personally know c*ck all about the principles of flight so when someone like BEagle makes a comment its worth taking time to read and digest it all. Obviously though it seems that there is more than one way to interpret someone's personal view however.

I forgot to say that the DH accident in '52 is covered in the "Quest for Speed" episode of Reaching For The Skies. Lots of footage and eye witnesses etc.

Baldie Man

30th Jul 2002, 13:19

On the subject of BEagles post:

I feel slightly dissapointed by the slagging match that followed what was mearly BEagle offering some sort of analysis or opinion - this is a rumour network after all. Resorting to using asterix words and insults in a thread discussing a fatal accident is somewhat disrespectful IMHO and could almost be described as the bulletin board equivilant of scrapping at a funeral.
This site is read by many people not just those involved in the aviation world and it gives a bad impression. I think it would more appropriate when posting on future fatal accident threads to show a little more sensitivity and respect.

BM.

Wee Weasley Welshman

30th Jul 2002, 14:21

Reasonable speculation is encouraged.

After every accident there is always speculation. Followed by those decrying the speculation.

The official line is that the cirumspect, informed speculation is welcome.

BEagles post fits that bill.

WWW

SixOfTheBest

30th Jul 2002, 15:18

Sorry, got to agree with Pete O'H. I accept that, as a rumour network, it is a good thing that rumours/opinions are expressed. I draw the line when deaths are involved. And besides, I think Beagle is a D!ck. Just how does he seem to know everything? I suspect he has one of the biggest armchairs in the industry....He's also as opinionated as I am.....unfortunately.

My thoughts to the victims families. Horrific.

Wee Weasley Welshman

30th Jul 2002, 15:46

Six of the best - I object to that insult. The long standing PPRuNe'r you refer to has done many years of sterling work providing advice and guidance to people on the Private Flying, Flying Instructors and Wannabes forum.

In addition he helps keep this forum un-moderated and he answers PPRuNe HQ questions regarding issues of sensitivity.

I just told you that the post to which you object it bona fide in the view of the owner and adminstrators of this site. Thats the end of the debate I am afraid.

Keep your insults and language to yourself in future.

:mad:

WWW

Jackonicko

30th Jul 2002, 16:26

From his public posts we know BEagle to be helpful, encouraging, polite, and level headed, and with a formidable level of knowledge. Since we can also discern that he's a QFI, a current military four-jet Captain (training captain) who has flown VC 10, Vulcan, and F-4, I'd say that his analysis is worth considering - whether speculative or otherwise.

You, Six, on the other hand, ARE an opinionated dick, and, before you point it out, it does "take one to know one".

:D

TomPierce

30th Jul 2002, 16:33

SixOfTheBest

Big chip on the shoulder have we? That was a very insulting comment towards BEAgle. He actually probably thinks your initials should DHead anyway, I certainly do.

BEAgle has always struck me as being someone who gets brain in gear before opening mouth. I have a feeling that he is not far from the real truth in this unfortunate accident. Also, I have a real concern that these particular models are somewhat suspect and not quite right for flying displays. How many down now?

Whatever, attacking BEAgle will not win you any brownie points. So, do you have a better theory?

Jacko

It was 27 killed in '52 sadly. Kinda' gives a pointer to the fact that aeroplanes suffer from all kinds of happenings that will bring them to earth - in any circumstance, and at any time anywhere.

BEagle

30th Jul 2002, 17:54

Hello Chums!

Firstly, a little banter to 'Sex of the Beast'. Nothing to do with any of your curious flagellatory fetishes though.

Please explain why, after weeks and weeks of crossing the Atlantic, when the ship suddenly went thud against the strange continent of North America, your ancestors got together and said: "Now, stout fellows, let us think. To the South there is sun. There are beaches. There are babes. But verily I say unto thee to the North there is but darkness. Horrid bears. Trees. F*cking millions of them. And blackflies, moose and the worst beer in the known world. Shall we be sensible and go grab a brew or few with our Spam chums whilst we cruise their babes in Hooters? Or shall we turn right, wander abooooooot and inhabit a god-forsaken land of ice, trees, biting insects and blubber-eating weirdos?"

And lo, they decided that, being stupider than a stupid thing, right hand down was the thing to do. Eh?

PS - that's silly, playful banter. My little ladylove is Canadian, so I'm not being serious!

Oh - and sticks and stones, by the way!

When I was even younger than I am today, I was in the back of Dad's Ford Zephyr convertible whilst he was buying pre-Christmas cheap booze at the NAAFI at the Army Camp in Taunton. A friend of ours, a happy Hunter hero known as 'Farmer' Steele (died last year, went to his funeral. RIP) spotted me and asked "Whose aircraft lost a wing and pranged at Farnborough?" "John Derry in the DH...errr" I replied in a squeaky voice. I can still remember him writing '110' on the frost on the back window.........

Funny thing was my first military flight was in a Sea Vixen (son of DH 110) some 12 years later.

Nothing in the above should in any way detract from the horror which all pilots felt at the imagery of the accident in Lviv. Nor from the total sympathy expressed towards the bereaved by all on this thread. This website. As I write, sadly there are some very distressing charges being levied against the air display controllers in Ukraine.

And Six of the Best- Canadian beer SUCKS!! In my humble opinion!

DESPERADO

30th Jul 2002, 23:37

Although I am not convinced about some of the colourful expressions used by SOTB & PO'H etc I kind of understand the sentiment.
This forum is for Military flyers of whatever type; as far as I understand it is an international forum, not an RAF or UK forum. It is read and replied to from as far afield as the US, Australia, Europe etc etc and I am sure even the Ukraine. If a similar incident, God forbid, should have happened at Farborough, involving an RAF aircraft and crew, do we think it would be appropriate to start throwing around wild conjecture about puffs of smoke and stalled engines? I'll answer my own question, no it bl00dy well would not be. Its not fair on the crew, or the families of the dead. Just because it happened in the Ukraine doesn't absolve those of us, 'in the know' of responsibility to our fellow military flyers. Especially, as this site is often read by some of the more dubious members of the press (not talking about you jacko, I think). BEagle, I am sure you have zillions of hours flying rubber doggy doo out of BZN, you may even have a few FJ hours on some of the ac now rusting in front of various main gates, you may even be right about the cause of the accident, but some opinions (maybe even this one) should be kept to ourselves. Sometimes the Font of Knowledge needs a plug in it.
And that is my humble opinion.

SOTB. You haven't changed. I think I know who you are. I believe that we were on the same QWI a while back (different ac). I also remember very well what you did at your solo party at LOO. Nasty man.

Everybody else, stop coddling BEagle. BEagle seems to be quite capable of looking after himself, indeed, I am sure that he will soon 'show me my box'. Completely agree about the Canadian beer though, dreadful stuff; unfortunately, I believe you'll find that SOTB isn't one of the locals.

Seriously though, my thoughts are with the families of those that died, and with the crew who must be feeling terrible, whatever the cause of the accident.

sprucemoose

31st Jul 2002, 11:18

Sorry guys, but I'm going to have to get in on the BEagle bashing:

I've always found BEags to be an intelligent, informed and entertaining read, but I must object to his assertion that Canadian beer sucks. I'm rather partial to a bottle of Moosehead - is this a brew with which our Conway-loving compatriot is not yet acquainted?

On the accident, while speculation is what people like to do, I don't think we would have been so quick to judge one way or the other if this had been an RAF jet that had gone in at a UK show - don't rush to judge just because it was johnny foreigner. That aside, the slanging matches should be saved for jetblast.

BEagle

31st Jul 2002, 16:51

Moosehead......well, OK. Just. But comments remain for Labatt's and Molson's!! Or maybe it's just that they taste that way in Goose Bay. Eh?

All I said in my original thread was I thought that it looked as though there could have been a POSSIBILITY of an engine snag BEFORE the last roll, particularly as that roll appeared as though it MIGHT have been undemanded. That MIGHT have caused a departure - as it did with the MiG29 at Paris which lost an engine at a critical stage after a bird ingestion - from which recovery wasn't possible.

I made no comment about why the ac was where it was, at the height it was or doing what it was. Neither did I ever say I knew the PROBABLE cause.

So why the flak?

Anyway - I've had enough of the particular direction this thread is taking as it is not benefitting the bereaved, neither is it going to establish the cause of the accident. So I will refrain from further comment (hoo-b£oody-ray I hear you say) until more FACTS emerge.

SixOfTheBest

31st Jul 2002, 19:10

Beagle,

Soz me 'ole, woz in a bit of a bad mood when I posted! Harsh banter retracted. You're right, Canadian beer tastes like water with a splash of Brit beer. It's a big country though....... I will never again post rude comments......

Jacko,

Stick it up yer rusty bullet-hole!!

TomP,

Same.

Flap62

31st Jul 2002, 20:02

Don't always agree with Mr Beags but hear goes ! This is a rumour network - no need to wait for the board of enquiry. If we wanted only facts then PPFane wouldn't work nearly as well. Almost all entries that do not threaten security or defame named individuals should be allowed. The kind of people who might say " steady on old boy, that's a bit rum" haven't lived in a banter rich environment, and don't give me that " oh how can you banter when so many died" garbage. Yes it's absolutely tragic and in no way the cause for any sort of humour but that's not the issue here. The post causing the upset might not be "well informed" but looked a reasonable stab at the coffee bar board of enquiry. Smokey donks or not, something caused the guy to pork it large.

Edited due to dodgey keboad

Reichman

1st Aug 2002, 13:16

Just to go back to Beags last thread. After the MiG 29 crash at Paris the CAA implemented a rule which forbids manoeuvres in multi-engined aircraft which would result in loss of control should an engine lose power/fail. Before any knee jerkers have a go I'M NOT SAYING THAT THIS HAPPENED IN THIS CASE.

Reheat On

2nd Aug 2002, 06:50

Hmmm ... interesting thread for 3 pages, of which 2 pages are erudite discussion about a not unrealistic pilot to pilot assessment of what might have happened. Other than Beag's 3 ha'porth, little to inspire.

The fact remains that somewhere in the psychology, the SU27 [ and the '29] jocks have become guidance advisors aboard uncrashable FBW 'point and fly' rockets which can simply power their way from deliberately induced unstable loss of control to instant normal flight in any chosen direction. All very well in AC at FL250, but a tad ball busting at 300'

Sympathy abounding, I think this is a case which simply proves that aerodynamics continues to rule. Impressive displays at ultra low level are associated with a concomitant impressive risk - the cause, be it compressor stall through a high g changing throttle requirement or whatever, is immaterial. The a/c left the envelope.

The necessity of such an accident must remain open to question; it could so easily have been avoided.

Chris Kebab

2nd Aug 2002, 07:34

You've hit the nub of this Reheat On - "it could so easily have been avoided" which makes the loss of so many people even sadder.

For what it's worth, having seen several clips of footage, my instinct tells me that nothing was wrong with the engines - still time will tell.

And Canadian beer is garbage..

rivetjoint

2nd Aug 2002, 07:59

The BBC had an interesting article on their site about the Soviet-era blame policy, do you think the accident investigation will ever make public news?

Gen. Bombdabastards

2nd Aug 2002, 15:39

2 senior RAF officers got away with drawing up thier own conclusions over the Mull of Kintyre crash.

Pity the RAF didn't sack them B4 the results of the BOI like the Ukrainians have done.

ORAC

2nd Aug 2002, 16:15

CNN 2nd Aug:

KIEV, Ukraine -- The death toll from the Ukraine air show disaster has risen to 84 after a 59-year-old woman died from her injuries six days after the tragedy.

Both pilots of the Sukhoi Su-27 ejected safely before the jet clipped the ground and tore through the crowd, exploding in flames in the world's worst air show accident, last Saturday.

Sixty-nine casualties, 20 of them children, are still being treated in hospital after the disaster in Lviv, western Ukraine.

Eight remain in a critical condition, the emergencies ministry said in a statement on Friday.

The prosecutor general has detained four top military officials in connection with the crash.

He also said the pilots, who were still being treated in hospital, were partly to blame.

The death toll rose the day after Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma publicly blamed the military for the disaster.

Kuchma questioned on Thursday why scarce defence funding was used to finance the Lviv air show and has promised to push ahead with reform of the military. (Story)

He has sacked the country's air force chief and the head of the armed forces, but he refused to accept the resignation of his defence minister.

Speaking in Sevastopol, he said: "How is it possible to understand when the army, working with insufficient funds, completing difficult work for our countrymen, spends its money not on raising the defence capability of the state, but on an entertainment show?

"I want to note that the guilty must be punished. And just those, those with direct and full responsibility for the tragedy. Not the second-class, little men."

Kuchma said the Lviv tragedy -- officially the world's worst air show disaster -- and an explosion in a mine in eastern Ukraine on Wednesday that killed at least 19, was damaging the country. (Mine disaster)

He said: "I am sure the incomplete reform process in the military and the difficulties of that work made the tragedies of recent times possible. We have to draw a line under this once and for all."

Following the Lviv disaster, Ukraine's air force chief Viktor Strelnykov, and Petro Shulyak, the head of the armed forces and acting defence minister, were sacked.

But Kuchma said on Thursday said he had not accepted the resignation of Defence Minister Volodymyr Shkidchenko.

Strelnykov was quoted by Interfax-Ukraine news agency as saying the pilots had failed to carry out orders.

Roymac

4th Aug 2002, 19:45

Article in the "Sundays" reports that cause was "pilot error" combined with lack of ground planning to cope with such an accident. Must agree with Chris Kebab that there never really looked like there was anything wrong with either engine. I think the handling pilot missed one or more of his "gates" and aircraft did in deed stall in the final stages as he realised he had f***** it and pulled full back stick. It has happened before and sadly may well happen again. RIP Chris Lackman and Jack Thompson.

Smoketoomuch

4th Aug 2002, 21:21

http://i.timeinc.net/time/potw/20020802/plane.jpg

:(

DamienB

5th Aug 2002, 23:14

Germans seem to think it was shot down...

Video here (http://www.rtl.de/rtlworld.html )

Halfway down the page in the middle click on "zum video" then "Raketenabschuss" and "das video zum thema".

BLW Skylark 4

6th Aug 2002, 00:08

Thanks Damian, fascinating clip but as I don't speak German its a bit difficult to follow.

Are they seriously suggesting that something was fired at the SU27...?? From what I can make of their video extracts, thats what it looks like to me.....

Worrying!!!

DamienB

6th Aug 2002, 07:20

My German ain't up to much either but the bits I could catch seem to be suggesting one or two projectiles were fired at the aircraft, and the Ukrainians have estimated a speed of 700 mph for the projectiles, and the pilot crashed trying to avoid them.

Personally I think they need to take a chill pill and read this (http://www.opendb.com/sol/seq.htm) unless somebody can point me towards a smokeless noiseless SAM currently in service anywhere!

Capt.KAOS

6th Aug 2002, 12:50

Actually the reporter said the video footage was confiscated by the local secret service. Russian TV Channel NT showed it last nite and claimed it was an UFO who caused the disaster. Apparently RTL believe this hoax and echoed it, ridiculous. If you play the video frame by frame you can see there's no coordination between the a/c and the UFO and it's only visible in the grey area. If it's a SAM where's the jetblast/smoke?

The 2nd "projectile" could be an ejected pilot?

The sight of the bottom of the a/c so close is absolutely horrifying......

Capt.KAOS

Bigears

6th Aug 2002, 14:05

If the photo on the previous page is genuine, then why do there appear to be holes in the elevators, and why does the port wing leading edge appear damaged? :confused:

Gainesy

6th Aug 2002, 14:38

The still or photo showing the port wing l/e damage is very late in the crash sequence. The a/c had already taken the nose off a parked Il-76 with, from memory of the initial TV coverage, the port wing. The port wing tip then touched the ground briefly and the crew ejected about this time as, or just before (again from memory) the a/c started to cartwheel.
Could'nt get to the RTL video referred to above BTW

ORAC

6th Aug 2002, 14:53

The news story has been moved. Now go to the news page and you'll find a link with a screen shot, "EXKLUSIV-VIDEO". Click on it and it takes you to "DAS VIDEO ZUM THEMA":

RTL (http://www.rtl.de/rtlworld.html)

DamienB

6th Aug 2002, 15:27

Bigears - the pic's genuine alright.

The RTL footage includes a bit shot by somebody who presumably is no longer with us, showing the aircraft from near head-on as it bottoms out, looks like it *did* hit the trees after all, but it was already banked over to port by that point. After the wingtip hits the ground and the rest of the aircraft flattens out to hit the tarmac an explosion starts - looks like by the nose - and only then do the pilots leave - you can see the canopy go. The video then shows it beginning to ground-loop and ends as the chap doing the videoing realises he's in the path of the aircraft. It presumably tipped up on the other wing at this point and began that cartwheel through the static line-up.

solotk

6th Aug 2002, 16:34

That is simply the most awful thing I've seen.

I don't think the 2nd object is a bang seat, it seems to be heading in the wrong direction relative to the aircraft.

As for smokeless manportable sams.....

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/rbs70.htm

I guess we won't know, till the Ukranians finish their investigations :(

sycamore

6th Aug 2002, 19:56

I think "raketenabschuss" means rocket-seat,so let`s not get carried away with SAMs!

BLW Skylark 4

7th Aug 2002, 12:39

Orac,

Has it been moved again, I cant find it anymore!

solotk

7th Aug 2002, 12:52

BBC carrying early report, that the Drivers have been dicked :(

DamienB

7th Aug 2002, 12:52

Pilot error blamed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2178539.stm

"the pilots had failed to follow the flight plan and performed difficult manoeuvres which they had not done before"

Hmmm.

ORAC

7th Aug 2002, 14:08

Skylark.

Go to RTL as above, click on "News" then "Nachrichten" on the left hand menu.

On that page you'll find a link about half way down under "Schlagzeilen" to "Ukraine: RTL-Exklusiv-Video". Click on that and you get get to their report with the video under the "Das video zum Thema" link.

Probably the last day they'll have it there though. Anyone downloaded a copy which is available or know of another more permanent site with it on?

Flatus Veteranus

7th Aug 2002, 14:27

Several contributions have assumed that the SU-27 has fly-by-wire, but others have suggested that the pilot pulled too hard and stalled it. Surely fly-by-wire FCSs include Alpha-limiters? When I left the business the SU-27 FCS was still the subject of "intelligent speculation". Do we know definitely that it has FBW?:confused:

Steve Davies

8th Aug 2002, 11:55

The Su-27 does have FBW and is also AoA limited. However, the aircrew can disable the AoA limiter by means of turining it off, or can overide it by applying additional back presssure on the stick.

Flatus Veteranus

8th Aug 2002, 12:04

Thank you Steve. I was in OR working on these concepts back in the mid-70's. Interesting how things turned out!

Shlong

8th Aug 2002, 17:20

Wouldn't mind seeing this video footage that everyone is discussing.

Anybody know where to find it now it has been removed from RTL?

David Berry

8th Aug 2002, 21:55

At the risk of being boring - and a little behind the times - but I have only just joined the Forum - I too was at Farnborough on that fateful day. At the time I was undergoing my basic flying training at No.1 FTS, Moreton-in-Marsh. In my book, 'Specialist Aircrew', (www.keyhambooks.co.uk), I recall the vivid experience of seeing the two engines on a trajectory over my head, to crash into the hill behind. They were that close and that 'clean' that they looked like the exhibited models on the stands of the exhibitors at that same show - every pipe, pump, screw, rivet was visible