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Sunfish
14th Aug 2018, 06:53
So much for Jetstar and Qantas.

Budget airline Jetstar is under fire for using foreign cabin crews on Australian routes and paying them a base pay of as little as $100 a week.

The Thai-based cabin crew work on popular holiday routes on shifts lasting up to 20 hours and say they struggle to feed themselves on the amount they are paid.




The reality of cheap airfares: Jetstar under fire over foreign crews' pay and work on domestic sectors - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-14/jetstar-under-fire-over-foreign-cabin-crews-pay-domestic-flights/10107814)

troppo
14th Aug 2018, 08:25
Corporate Social Responsibility, Triple Bottom Line, Sustainability...who cares...look at the share price tho...
It appears that their position of 'it being a good salary in Thailand does not align with any sort of moral compass.

Wunwing
14th Aug 2018, 09:01
Ross Gittens of the Fairfax Press talks about organisation's "Social License". Basically the concept is that if an organisation receives benefits from Society it has an obligation ( probably not enforceable in law) to act socially and ethically responsibly. The question then is if this report is true, does it pass the Social license test?

Otherwise the conditions reported may be legal. Aviation law reflects marine law and use of foreign ships/aircraft and foreign crews for domestic transport is know as cabotage. This has got to such a stage in Australia that we have virtually no Australian registered shipping. This has come about for just such crew conditions as reported in this article. How could Australian shipping compete with those wages and conditions?

It seems to me that the problems that the Thai crew report are normal in the marine environment so how can they legally be enforces in the aviation environment? The only way to give them decent conditions is by a change in the Law and we all know the chances of that happening. I also suspect that Jetstar's foreign LC competitors aren't any more generous with their crew allowances when the crew are slipping in Australia.

All this has been happening over about 40 years and when the Marine Unions asked for our help we ignored them. We also ignored the NZ threat dropped on us by our then Treasurer and now are paying the price (including pilot jobs and conditions) for failing to act.

As pilots we also failed to support licensing of Cabin Crew. As a result there are no enforceable CASA, Flight Time Limitations on cabin crew. If there were then a 20 hour tour would not be possible?

Like many other events the pilots of Australian saw themselves as divorced from the rest of the workforce. Chickens flying in now?

Wunwing

krismiler
14th Aug 2018, 09:07
The "tag" sector was meant to cover foreign airlines which cover two Australian ports with one flight if they couldn't justify separate services to each one eg. South African Airways JNB - PER - SYD. In this case the domestic sector can't be sold on it's own but could carry pax who had made a stopover. It was not designed as a way to get around employment laws which could be the case at the moment

Many airlines use foreign, cheaper crews. Scandanavian employees are expensive, Finnair and Norwegian use Asian cabin staff on their long haul routes to cut costs. Ryanair are notorious for trying to circumvent regulations with iffy self employment contracts.

Foreign crews should not be operating domestic sectors where the passenger tickets don't involve an international sector.

Wunwing
14th Aug 2018, 09:17
krismiler.
I am aware of the intent but my point is that due to long term disinterest, the horse has bolted.
Wunwing.

GA Driver
14th Aug 2018, 11:04
This has come up before, been going on for years. No one in government or law seemed interested so it continues. What’s also interesting is that foreign crew operate in from their native country, then filter out to other ports in the (international) network not even affiliated with their home country. Foreign labour laws don’t seem to ‘protect’ any of this stuff so on it goes.

Ollie Onion
14th Aug 2018, 11:17
This was raised at an EP day and the Company response was ‘Jetstar doesn’t employ these crew, we contract and crewing agency to provide crew, what the crew negotiate with their employers is up to them’!

josephfeatherweight
14th Aug 2018, 11:23
As a occasional SLF on Jetstar International, I too believe it is a blight on the industry that Jetstar are crewing the back end of their jets with these foreign based crew. No complaints about the crew themselves, they are attentive and provide a reasonable service, despite often appearing weary, no doubt due to their minimum turn-arounds, perhaps from their home-base.

Nulli Secundus
14th Aug 2018, 12:08
Is this where we are as a nation?

Based on one's nationality, you will be remunerated less than an Australian in the same role. Consider this: two cabin crew sign off from the same JQ flight and head out for a meal. One is Australian, one is Thai. Both work for the same operator. Only difference - the Thai national will be given a lesser meal allowance. DISCRIMINATION? You bet! Meanwhile, Andrew Forest et al work hard to establish anti-slavery and exploitation protocols in supply chains and what do we have on our own soil? Granted, its not the most extreme example of such, but good luck fighting the good fight when you can't even tackle & beat this as an example.

How can it be that Australia stands for labour hire arrangements which simply put an arm's length barrier between operator and staff? Is this not what happens to exploited foreign workers in the ag. industry? Dodgy labour hire companies with no fear of consequence supplying workers to primary producers on a don't ask/ don't tell basis?

Kudos to the techie who called out the domestic/ international ('tag') sector issue and also to the Thai FA for going public. First world privilege comes all too often from third world pain! I choose not to fly this operator.

chimbu warrior
14th Aug 2018, 12:22
Company response was ‘Jetstar doesn’t employ these crew, we contract and crewing agency to provide crew, what the crew negotiate with their employers is up to them’!

Of course............Jetstar had no idea of the terms and conditions under which these people were engaged............and of course because they are employed in another country Jetstar are powerless to do anything about it............just rotten luck really. What a shame.

swh
14th Aug 2018, 12:24
Didn’t Qantas use cabin crew employed by jetconnect in NZ on long haul ?

krismiler
14th Aug 2018, 12:31
If I return to Australia .then I'll bring in a maid from the Philippines and pay her $600 a month for working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. Live in, so I'll provide a room and food. To get around the immigration and employment laws I'll list her as Jetstar cabin crew.

Sadly there would be no shortage of applicants.

GA Driver
14th Aug 2018, 13:25
This was raised at an EP day and the Company response was ‘Jetstar doesn’t employ these crew, we contract and crewing agency to provide crew, what the crew negotiate with their employers is up to them’!

Exactly the same as the new domestic crew..... Jetstar .... I mean ALTARA! Company claims not their issue, as the employee is employed not with them, but a different company. :=

josephfeatherweight
14th Aug 2018, 13:38
Exactly the same as the new domestic crew..... Jetstar .... I mean ALTARA! Company claims not their issue as the employee is employed not with them but a different company. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_naughty.gif
It's disgraceful. And nothing will change...

Jeffory
14th Aug 2018, 14:22
Nobody is willing to give up their $89 fares, so it will continue. Everyone in Straya wants high wages, but also want to pay f*** all for everything.

megan
15th Aug 2018, 00:17
Everyone in Straya wants high wages, but also want to pay f*** all for everything Probably learnt that lesson from the airline management being discussed here. Just saying, it's true of everyone of course.

Yournamehere
15th Aug 2018, 01:12
For balance, here is Jetstar's response to the claims (don't shoot the messenger!);



https://newsroom.jetstar.com/response-to-abc-report/


Melbourne,
14 August 2018Response to ABC Report14 August , 2018 – 730 has made a lot of claims without much context. The reporting on salary figures and length of shifts is misleading, and its simply wrong to say we operate overseas crew on domestic rosters.

They have overlooked standard industry practice around payment of allowances and rostering of crew to deliver a headline.

Is it true that you are only paying your Thai based crew $100 a week?

This is a really misleading claim. The figure cited by 730 is based on zero flying hours and is not reflective of the average weekly earnings of our Thai based crew, which is $650.
Cabin crew salaries are made up of a base wage plus flying hours and other allowances. This is common to airlines around the world.

The ABC says Thai crews can be rostered up to 17 hours, which can be extended up to 20 hours. They say that leaves them fatigued and not physically fit in case of emergency. How safe is this roster?

We take all fatigue reports extremely seriously and have strict fatigue management processes in place, which include rostering limitations, to ensure adequate rest periods.
All our crew, including Australian-based crew, have an operating limit 14 hours duty (including two hours to sign on/sign off).
In the event of a flight delay, this can be extended to a maximum of 17 operating hours.

Are Thai based crew operating domestic Jetstar flights?

No. The only time overseas-based crew operate between two Australian domestic cities is on a ‘tag flight’, which is an industry term used to describe an international flight that connects in more than one domestic city, such as Adelaide-Darwin-Denpasar. The pilots, cabin crew and the aircraft operate all of these sectors.
Overseas based crew operating tag flights complies with Australia’s employment law and Australian visa conditions
Many airlines operate tag flights, they are common industry practice worldwide.
Approximately 0.5 per cent of Jetstar’s flights are tag flights.

The ABC is reporting that Thai based crew are not trained to the same safety standards as Australian crew – is that correct?

All our crew, regardless of where they are based, undertake exactly the same onboard training, attend the same Ground School and recurrent training, and undertake the same onboard procedures.
This includes crew based in Australia, New Zealand, Thailand and Singapore.

Lookleft
15th Aug 2018, 01:27
Everything Jetstar have stated is true. It is all within the law and follows standard practice. Jetstar get away with it because they push the boundaries to the absolute limit. Of course you can't have tag flights operating within Australia by a foreign carrier being crewed by Australian citizens, but the law does not make a distinction between a foreign carrier and a tag flight being operated by an Australian carrier. Its not that different to the way Jetstar operate to the CAO48E. There is nothing illegal with the way Jetstar rosters the pilots but if you view limits as targets then the effect on the crew is very different.

neville_nobody
15th Aug 2018, 01:36
How does it qualify as being a 'Tag Flight' when it's two different flight numbers? I would have thought it had to be the same flight. By their definition the vast majority of QF domestic sectors are Tag Flights as they can connect with international flights.

GA Driver
15th Aug 2018, 01:37
It’s been mentioned above, it’s an absolute disgrace but probably not illegal. The report neglects to mention they usually do 14 day deployments that can be (and regularly are) extended to 21. Minimum 8 days off a month at home which is all they get. This isn’t how locals are treated but therin the clanger....
Have a look on any JQ international flight and see how many Aus cabin crew are on board. There’s a reason they don’t have many aus based crew and it’s nothing to do with race. The 787 international crew are almost all foreign, the 320 ops less so due to the bases.

That said zero will get done about it for the reasons already mentioned. You can’t help but feel for them ‘it’s a good wage in Thailand...’ :mad:

The tag flights have come up before in the ‘loose cannon’ (aka Bruce Buchanan) era. Some of the tag flights are the same number, some are not. In years gone by there were a few ‘tag’ flights that had NO international connection. They stopped shortly after it was exposed last time and haven’t resurfaced in the same numbers.

neville_nobody
15th Aug 2018, 01:47
By definition though two separate flight numbers are two separate flights.

bazza stub
15th Aug 2018, 03:08
ALTARA!

Well, there's your problem. This mob are the scum of the sub-subcontract earth, industrial revolution style managers of human beings. They prey on young, uneducated (I mean as far as workplace rights), broke and easily led people.

Ollie Onion
15th Aug 2018, 03:50
They can be very 'liberal' in their interpretation of what is a Tag flight. Just look at the Auckland - Rarotonga sector, there is no open skies agreement on this sector and to start an NZ - Cook Islands flight requires government approval. Jetstar answer was of course to construct this pattern as a Melbourne - Auckland - Rarotonga tag flight meaning that no authorization was required. The confusing thing though is that the two sectors are operated on Different Aircraft....... Different Crew ......... and of course no pax actually purchase a MEL - RAR flight, all the pax get on in AKL. I am amazed that Air NZ hasn't kicked up more of a fuss about this as it opens up so many NZ routes under the guise of being a tag flight. But hey, they get away with it and so will keep on doing it...... and don't get me started on 'we take fatigue very seriously'!

StudentInDebt
15th Aug 2018, 05:54
That said zero will get done about it for the reasons already mentioned. You can’t help but feel for them ‘it’s a good wage in Thailand... it’s such a good salary a number of a Thai crew have recently been summarily dismissed for topping-up their wages by cigarette smuggling....

The way the Thai and Singaporean crews are treated is a disgrace and using the argument “everyone else does it” rings a bit hollow.

neville_nobody
15th Aug 2018, 05:55
Well maybe the regulators might need to start regulating. I'll bet they wouldn't trying this on with the US government. They take this kind of stuff very seriously.

Glorified Dus Briver
15th Aug 2018, 06:53
Is this where we are as a nation?

Based on one's nationality, you will be remunerated less than an Australian in the same role. Consider this: two cabin crew sign off from the same JQ flight and head out for a meal. One is Australian, one is Thai. Both work for the same operator. Only difference - the Thai national will be given a lesser meal allowance. DISCRIMINATION? You bet!

Sounds an awful like the sandpit.

ANCDU
15th Aug 2018, 08:52
As mentioned a couple of times previously this type of crewing is fairly common throughout the world, QF has history using bases in LHR, BKK and AKL and using third party organizations for crew. JQ is just doing what a large number of airlines throughout the world do.

The traveling public don’t care, they are only concerned if it will raise the price of a ticket, not if it is ethical or not.

Ken Borough
15th Aug 2018, 09:20
While you may rightly be upset about the employment terms of foreign cabin crew working for Jetstar, have any of you voiced disapproval about the enormous salaries paid to foreigners working for Chinese carriers? Do I hear anyone suggesting that Chinese nationals who are pilots receive the same pay as the foreigners who share their flight decks? Just wondering!

Wunwing
15th Aug 2018, 10:13
Ken B.
Obviously you haven't read the whole thread. It started out commenting that the Thai crew's meal allowances do not allow them to buy suitable meals while slipping in Australia.As someone who spent a working lifetime as International crew I can see that this is a problem for them.

I suspect that overpaid (in your opinion) pilots wouldn't have a problem sourcing food while they are slipping in China.

Wunwing

Ken Borough
15th Aug 2018, 10:31
Ken B.
Obviously you haven't read the whole thread. It started out commenting that the Thai crew's meal allowances do not allow them to buy suitable meals while slipping in Australia.As someone who spent a working lifetime as International crew I can see that this is a problem for them.

I suspect that overpaid (in your opinion) pilots wouldn't have a problem sourcing food while they are slipping in China.

Wunwing

But WW, it morphed into discussion about an Australian carrier employing foreign crew. And yes, I did read the entire thread. :ok:

StudentInDebt
15th Aug 2018, 11:46
As mentioned a couple of times previously this type of crewing is fairly common throughout the world, QF has history using bases in LHR, BKK and AKL and using third party organizations for crew.I’m not sure that other airlines take it to the extreme that JQ do though with crew on tours of up to 21 days without touching down in their home country. Also, the other airline where i’ve flown with International crew used 2-3 ICCs on specific sectors where their language skills would be employed rather than using them to fill the crew complement as a tool to ratchet down crew costs.

krismiler
15th Aug 2018, 14:28
Foreign cabin crew can be justified on routes with a specific language requirement, Japan for example. Jetstar however appear to be emulating the American cruise ship model where crewing is concerned. US officers, Bangladeshis below decks unseen and a mixture of nationalities in customer service roles carefully chosen so that they don't trust each other and won't unite and unionize. Chinese, Philippine, Vietnamese and Indians all speak different languages and each country has a territorial dispute with one or more of the others.

Classic divide and rule.

Yournamehere
15th Aug 2018, 23:21
While you may rightly be upset about the employment terms of foreign cabin crew working for Jetstar, have any of you voiced disapproval about the enormous salaries paid to foreigners working for Chinese carriers? Do I hear anyone suggesting that Chinese nationals who are pilots receive the same pay as the foreigners who share their flight decks? Just wondering!

This argument is completely flawed, the two examples used are economically opposite.

Foreign pilots in China are earning what they do based on pure supply and demand - their presence there is allowing airlines to grow and make more money. There are not enough pilots in China to crew the aircraft needed to fill the flying program. If no foreign pilots were there, the local pilots may well be earning even less than they do now as their airline would be making less money.

The widespread use of foreign cabin crew by JQ is solely designed to drive down costs and save money. I would be very shocked if there were not enough suitable locals to crew JQ international flights in place of the lower-paid foreign cabin crew if so desired by the company.

krismiler
16th Aug 2018, 06:23
I would be very shocked if there were not enough suitable locals to crew JQ international flights in place of the lower-paid foreign cabin crew if so desired by the company.
And if there weren't then JQ would need to improve the terms and conditions on offer until there were. Supply and demand for Australian workers doing Australian jobs. Or should there be a mass influx allowed of cheap foreign workers to do lower skilled jobs and drive down wages across all sectors ?

wheels_down
16th Aug 2018, 13:09
Norwegian Air allowed to use foreign crews (http://www.newsinenglish.no/2016/06/19/norwegian-air-allowed-to-use-foreign-crews/)

WingNut60
16th Aug 2018, 13:43
.......Or should there be a mass influx allowed of cheap foreign workers to do lower skilled jobs and drive down wages across all sectors ?

Eh!??
What do you think the entire 457 visa scheme was all about, until very recently anyway.
Filling unfillable jobs? Don't be silly.

Daylight Robbery
16th Aug 2018, 21:40
Just look at the Auckland - Rarotonga sector, there is no open skies agreement on this sector and to start an NZ - Cook Islands flight requires government approval.

I'm not sure anything particularly special was needed. The Cook Islands are a different case as they are associated with NZ, Cook citizens have NZ passports. AKL-Rarotonga would not need the approvals that say, AKL-Nadi would.

Rated De
20th Aug 2018, 09:52
Boston Bruce Buchanan claimed all manner of 'social interest' when confronted by this issue in Australia circa 2014. Curiously that social interest didn't extend to any sort of personal or company welfare expenditure in Thailand.

Until the great unwashed stop buying flash brands all made in sweatshops of Asia, stop flying sweatshop airlines they will comfort themselves in the knowledge that they secured a bargain!

After all it was far more important for free plastic bags at supermarkets to be paid for by generations in a 1000 years time, so the Aussie consumer isn't out of pocket for creating waste!