Lancaster/Other Bomber Crews Age

[flash8]

I think the Lancaster had the lowest mission fatality rate of any British bomber, somewhere in the region of 5% never returned*, so 1 in 20 was lost on a mission, at a 1942 cost of 42,000 for the airframe, and with all factors included such as training around 120,000 (again at 1942 rates) total.

What did surprise me is that many crews consisted of men (or should I say boys) aged 20 or under, that is the entire crew, for long-range trips over Germany. Such responsibility as such an age cannot be overestimated, although it is surprising that the vast majority of the aircrew were so young.

My question is, although aptitude was of course important, why were Bomber crews averaging out at age 21, surely many older men would have volunteered and that average age be somewhat beyond that mark.

*I believe other bombers had attrition rates of up to 15% on long-range missions.

[Innominate]

I'm not sure of the casualty rate for aircraft, but more crewmembers from Halifaxes survived (29%) than Lancaster crews (11%) - the Halifax had a bigger escape hatch in the nose, which most of the crew would have used. "The low rate for Lancasters was thought to be due to the fact that it was more difficult to move about in this narrow aircraft to the small forward compartment and to the poor rear escape hatch. It was also thought possible that the Lancaster was more liable to break up in the air and that the higher flight conditions might increase the difficulties of escape after the removal of the oxygen masks." (Operational Research in the RAF, (HMSO, 1963) p.66)

The average age became lower because many of the older men were pre-war regulars, many of whom were lost earlier in the war. Their replacements were mostly young men in their late teens, keen to fly and arguably more able to learn their trades quickly than those at the upper end of the age range.

[DC10RealMan]

I had a friend who was a member of an RAF Bomber Command crew and his fellow crew members called him "Dad" because he was 25 years of age with a wife and family.

He explained that he was more circumspect about taking on the risks involved because of his family commitments whereas his fellow crewmembers, not one of whom was over 21 knew that they were going to survive because at that age they were invincible. One day as they approached the end of their first tour of thirty flights they were accosted by Hamish Mahaddie, one of Don Bennetts "Horse Thieves" who suggested that they may wish to join the RAF Bomber Command Pathfinders and stay on operations and complete a tour of 60 flights before being "rested" because they got an extra 5p a day and an enamel Pathfinder badge to show the girls down the pub. Most of his young crewmates were very keen but he suggested that they take their weeks leave before coming to a decision, after they returned from the leave the subject was never mentioned again and they survived to be old men I am glad to say.

My friend did say that if his younger crewmates had insisted on joining the Pathfinders he would have gone with them knowing that in the winter of 1943 and the Battle of Berlin it was a virtual death sentence.

[rolling20]

Overall Lanc loss rates on ops were around 45% of all aircraft built, that doesn’t include training losses. Some aircrew lost their lives at 18 and I believe even 17. One Bomber Command pilot was 15. His father seeing a picture of him being presented to the King, promptly phoned the air ministry to ask what he was doing there.

[flash8]

I should say I picked up this knowledge from Len Deighton's "Bomber" which I found to be an absolutely incredible work, for its approach from all sides of the equation. Anyone thinking of ever waging war in my opinion should read this book, fiction it might be (although the stats I believe are meticulously researched, and are what I have quoted) but for the sheer scope of humanity it manages to encompass and its observational nuances I found it to be an absolute masterpiece.

The War planners analysis pre-mission on what type of bombs the Lancs should use was chilling.

[suninmyeyes]

Flash 8 wrote “I think the Lancaster had the lowest mission fatality rate of any British bomber, somewhere in the region of 5% never returned*, so 1 in 20 was lost on a mission, at a 1942 cost of 42,000 for the airframe,

I was always under the impression that a Spitfire during the war cost £5,000 and a Lancaster £22,000.

[flash8]

Only quoting here from Deighton's "Bomber" but of course may very well be incorrect:

In cash, at 1943 prices with profits pared to a minimum, each Lancaster cost £42,000. Crew-training averaged out at £10,000 each, at that time more than enough to send the entire crew to Oxford or Cambridge for three years. Add another £13,000 for bombs, fuel, servicing and ground-crew training at bargain prices and each bomber was a public investment of £120,000.


As a side note I was once taught by an elderly schoolmaster whose job he said during the war was to go around with a dustpan and brush and "sweep out" the bombers.... it was only many years later I understood fully what his meaning was, it was the way he said it and how his eyes glazed over that made it stick in my mind.

[rolling20]

Of course Mosquito losses bomber wise were much lower. As Innominate says Lancs did not have a very good escape record. Freeman Dyson estimated 10,000 bomber aircrew lost their lives as the escape hatch was too small.

[Innominate]

The figure of £5,000 for a Spitfire was a nominal target for the organisers of "Spitfire Funds" to raise. The MAP agreed prices with manufacturers for each batch of aircraft, although these were for the bare airframe and didn't include engines, guns, radios etc. That might explain the disparity between the figures of £22,000 and £42,000 for a Lancaster - unless one is a misprit! I found a note among Harris's papers at Hendon, giving a breakdown of costs (such as £2500 for an engine, £45 for a Browning and £355 for an 8000lb bomb) but not a cost for the bare airframe or complete aircraft.

[Heathrow Harry]

Of course Mosquito losses bomber wise were much lower. As Innominate says Lancs did not have a very good escape record. Freeman Dyson estimated 10,000 bomber aircrew lost their lives as the escape hatch was too small, by just one inch.
my old boss was a navigator on Mossie bombers.. he reckoned no-one ever thought they'd get out....... door was tiny,in full airflow and right next to the prop

[rolling20]

my old boss was a navigator on Mossie bombers.. he reckoned no-one ever thought they'd get out....... door was tiny,in full airflow and right next to the prop
i bought a car years ago from an old mossie navigator. Lovely old boy, but as deaf as a post.

[old,not bold]

My question is, although aptitude was of course important, why were Bomber crews averaging out at age 21, surely many older men would have volunteered and that average age be somewhat beyond that mark.

My father had his first flight in a DH-82 (Exercises 1 & 2) in March 1937 at the advanced age of 24, and ended his RAF career in October 1943 at the age of 31 when he was shot down near Munich in his Lancaster III as a Squadron Leader.

While flying and later in Stalag Luft 3 he was usually addressed as Grandpa, and he told me he often felt like one among the 18 - 21 year-olds he was with, while he was married with 2 children.

[rolling20]

Friend of mines Grandfather was a Bomber Command Flight Engineer (who he never knew). He was lost in 1944, he was I believe 46 years old.

[flash8]

I had a friend who was a member of an RAF Bomber Command crew and his fellow crew members called him "Dad" because he was 25 years of age with a wife and family.
He explained that he was more circumspect about taking on the risks involved because of his family commitments whereas his fellow crewmembers
Perhaps this was it, teenagers and a few years above feel immortal... and wouldn't have that fear that may arise with older folk.

I guess they had far more volunteers than spaces, and far less volunteers aged past the mid 20's, in those days marriage was usual by the early 20's? Many may have had young families.

Perhaps there was also an Aircrew cut-off age of course, but all of this combined conspired against those a little older.

the chance of surviving an ordinary tour of 30 missions unharmed was only 24%.
Again, can't find an accurate source for this information, but if I received this news with a young family, well, I'd damned well volunteer elsewhere.

[Mr Mac]

Flash 8
My late Fathers Halifax crew had an "older" Canadian skipper (24) but the rest of them were under 21, and in my Fathers case 18 yrs 6 months when shot down. The skipper was nicknamed "Granddad" by his young crew. Unfortunately both he and 3 others did not survive being shot down. My Dads 21st Birthday was spent watching the bombing of Hamlin while eating raw potatoes in a field while on the run after escaping from a POW column. As you say it is amazing what these young men did. As for "Bomber" I totally agree with you , a terrific book well researched and according to my Father a very accurate portrayal of what it was like, to both being in a bomber and being bombed. He experienced the latter courtesy of the 8th Air force and Bomber Command, and also had his column strafed by roving US fighter bombers on numerous occasions in 1945, the latter causing many fatalities and injury to POW,s.
Regards
Mr Mac .

[bobward]

Following on from flash8's posts, I'd like to add a small ditty.

My late father was one of the earliest recruits to the Air training Corps here in East Anglia. He and his mates were very keen to be air gunners. As part of their cadet training, they were often taken up to RAF Horsham St Faiths (now Norwich International Airport). Although it was mainly a fighter station, from time to time RAF Bombers would drop in after raids for fuel and other assistance. One day, whilst working on the station, they saw a bomber parked up near the tower. One cadet asked the chiefy looking after them, if they could go and have a look inside the turrets, being keen prospective gunners.

"Not just yet, son" quoth Chiefy, "They're still hosing the gunner out at the moment"

Dad's mate turned round to him and whispered " Sod being a gunner,Jack, let's go for radio operator...."

[Krystal n chips]

As an aside, how long would it take for a crew to complete the full 30 ops, or would this be dependent on type, Sqdn, and time of year ?..or all three.

[Treble one]

There were lots and lots of young men flying in Lancasters, but the oldest crew members (not very many) were usually gunners (and in their 40's).

To give context, the Lancaster was a horrible bomber to get out of. On average only one in 7 crew got out when it was shot down (8 crew in the Pathfinders-and extra navigator).

So with about 3400 lost and an average of 6 crew lost per loss, then you can see the Lancaster casualty rate would be very high.

[Danny42C]

The simple answer was: "Old men make wars, young men have to fight them". When I joined (in late '40), the age limits for aircrew were 17½ - 23. Nearly all the prewar "short service" and General List people were killed early on: the RAF fought the war with boys born in the five years between 1919 and 1923.

After the huge contraction in 1946 - 49, it was left with: "a much smaller cake - but the same mix". It would be the mid to late '60s before all the "old wartime hairies" were phased out.

When I came back in '49, I shared a room with a nice young Cranwellian. He told me that the opinion of the Directing Staff there was: "We'll do no good with this Air Force till we get rid of all these old wartime people". Hope it wasn't true !

[Danny42C]

Re: Lancasters: would it not have been possible for the whole or part "greenhouse" on top to be made jettisonable ? Never had anything to do with them myself, but I understand the front spar was a major obstacle when you needed to get out fast in full flying kit.

Any "techies" like to come in on this ?

[spekesoftly]

My late mother's first husband was 23 years old when his Lancaster Mk II (LL623) failed to return from a raid to Berlin. Thus my mother was married, pregnant and widowed, before reaching the age of 19.

[Innominate]

There were lots and lots of young men flying in Lancasters, but the oldest crew members (not very many) were usually gunners (and in their 40's).
Many of the flight engineers were former Halton "Brats" chosen for their engineering knowledge, and likely to be above the average age. Likewise some of the wireless operators would have had prior experience in a ground wireless trade.

Would it not have been possible for the whole or part "greenhouse" on top to be made jettisonable ?
Still not easy to climb out that way (stand on the nav's table?) and then you'd need to avoid the inner propellers, the wing and the tailplane. Having climbed over the main spar with the aircraft on the ground, in a lit hangar and wearing a suit (me, not the aircraft!) I wouldn't want to do it wearing flying kit, with the aircraft pitching and rolling, at night. That said, most of the crew (pilot, engineer, navigator, bomb aimer and wireless operator) were forward of the spar, so they'd go for the nose hatch.

[rolling20]

Re: Lancasters: would it not have been possible for the whole or part "greenhouse" on top to be made jettisonable ? Never had anything to do with them myself, but I understand the front spar was a major obstacle when you needed to get out fast in full flying kit.

Any "techies" like to come in on this ?
With 4 Merlins turning either side and possibly on fire, along with a wing on fire as well, one would have thought the last place you would want to parachute from was the cockpit area?

[rolling20]

As an aside, how long would it take for a crew to complete the full 30 ops, or would this be dependent on type, Sqdn, and time of year ?..or all three.
A lot depended on luck, no early returns, the weather and the leave roster.I would say mid 43, around 5-6 months was about right. That may have decreased slightly as the war went in their favour after DDay.

[rolling20]

There were lots and lots of young men flying in Lancasters, but the oldest crew members (not very many) were usually gunners (and in their 40's).

I think that's a bit of a generalisation. Whilst there were one or two famous older gunners and indeed pilots,who were usually permanent commissioned people, it was very rare to find a gunner who wasn't in their 20s.

[WHBM]

Mr WHBM Snr, b.1910, was Nav (having been in banking) on Halifaxes 1942-3, so 32-33. Then went to the same position on Dakotas in Burma for the rest of it. He said by 1943 they had one pre-war "regular" left on the base.

[Krystal n chips]

A lot depended on luck, no early returns, the weather and the leave roster.I would say mid 43, around 5-6 months was about right. That may have decreased slightly as the war went in their favour after DDay.

Thank you for that reply. I've always wondered given the number of variables involved.

" Many of the flight engineers were former Halton "Brats" chosen for their engineering knowledge, and likely to be above the average age. Likewise some of the wireless operators would have had prior experience in a ground wireless trade."

I once met a former Whitely pilot who was more than a little scathing about the above becoming aircrew, not because he was antagonistic towards engineers, but , because in his opinion, there was a desperate need for well trained / experienced engineers and transferring to aircrew reduced their numbers.

[longer ron]

Not Lancaster but the youngest RAF pilot was Tom Dobney.
Lied about his age
Joined RAF aged 14yrs 3months
awarded wings 15yrs 5months
Flew (I believe) 20 ish operations on AW Whitley bombers before being grounded (shopped by his father).
Later rejoined the RAF and became a Kings Flight Captain (later Air Traffic ?)

[longer ron]

The oldest Lanc Pilot I am aware of was Wg Cdr Vashon James 'Pop' Wheeler D.F.C. and Bar, M.C. and Bar, Order of St Stanislaus (Russia) RAF, CO of 207 Sqn. Killed in a Lancaster near Frankfurt on 23rd March 1944. Age 46.
He was mentioned in Peter Townsends 'Duel of Eagles' autobio,I think when they first met they were calling each other 'sir' , P T was at least a sqdn ldr by then but was confused by 'pops' grey hair,pop was a pilot officer(or maybe F/O) in those days.
Sad he didnt make it.

Pop was a rifle brigade officer in WW1(underage !) ,learned to fly between the wars,volunteered for RAF(lied about his age again!!) and was a night fighter pilot on Hurris,Havocs,Beaus and Mossies.After being grounded by Fighter Command he volunteered for Bombers but was unlucky and his Lanc was hit by flak within a few weeks of being made OC 207 sqdn.
This link may or may not work - where there is a small bio.


About Vashon Films (http://justinwheeler.net/vashonfilms/about/vashon.htm)

[longer ron]

The oldest aircrew member I am aware of (Coastal Command) was - Wing Commander Lionel Frederick William Cohen, DSO, MC (World War I), DFC (World War II) was known as 'Sos' or sausage to all who knew him, and Evergreen to all his RAF comrades.He led a fascinating life -
This gallant gentleman served in four wars, was Army and also an observer in ww1(DSO, MC).Whilst officially a liason officer with Coastal in ww2 he volunteered to fly as a gunner and was awarded DFC aged 69 after completing (70 ?) ops.
Oldest aircrew and oldest flying medal winner ??

hopefully the link below to a bio of Sos will work.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/wing-commander-lionel-cohen

[Simtech]

As an aside, how long would it take for a crew to complete the full 30 ops, or would this be dependent on type, Sqdn, and time of year ?..or all three.

My late uncle was a bomb aimer with IX(B) Squadron for his first tour. His first trip was to Dusseldorf on the night of 3/4 November 1943; trip no.30 was to Aachen on 11/12 April 1944. Of his 30 trips, 12 were to Berlin.

[LowNSlow]

My dad was a Flight Engineer on Halifax IIIs. He joined the RAF as ground crew aged 20 in 1939. After serving in the UK during the Battle of Britain he was posted to a training squadron in Canada in 1941 where he eventually became restless and volunteered for aircrew in late 1943 and got through selection despite having poor eyesight! He joined his squadron in June 44 just post D-Day and flew his last and 36th operation in March 45. His Pilot was ex-Battle of Britain Fighter Command and was aged 27 but in my mind the absolute winner in the bravery stakes was their Rear Gunner who celebrated his 48th birthday in 1944. Regarding how long a tour of operations took I met another Flight Engineer at one of dad’s reunions who said he didn’t know anybody there as he had done his 30 ops in 6 weeks flat before being sent to India as an engineering officer and had never flown again. So anything from 10 months to 6 weeks!

[rolling20]

My dad was a Flight Engineer on Halifax IIIs. He joined the RAF as ground crew aged 20 in 1939. After serving in the UK during the Battle of Britain he was posted to a training squadron in Canada in 1941 where he eventually became restless and volunteered for aircrew in late 1943 and got through selection despite having poor eyesight! He joined his squadron in June 44 just post D-Day and flew his last and 36th operation in March 45. His Pilot was ex-Battle of Britain Fighter Command and was aged 27 but in my mind the absolute winner in the bravery stakes was their Rear Gunner who celebrated his 48th birthday in 1944. Regarding how long a tour of operations took I met another Flight Engineer at one of dad’s reunions who said he didn’t know anybody there as he had done his 30 ops in 6 weeks flat before being sent to India as an engineering officer and had never flown again. So anything from 10 months to 6 weeks!
Like I said, the length of a tour depended on certain variables. I personally would doubt a 30 op tour in 6 weeks however.