Brexit, licences and training

[xrayalpha]

Hi all,

With even the governor of the BofE speaking out today, it seems a no-deal is increasingly likely. In any sort of risk analysis, it really looks like something that now needs prepared for.

My first question, prompted by a student, is:

Do we need to warn students studying for an EASA licence that the licence may not be valid after the end of March next year - especially if they are contemplating a commercial career? Ryanair have already changed their booking Ts&Cs for instance, so should UK schools be doing the same?

Just as my wife was able to swap her Spanish driving licence for a UK one, can we swap a UK-issued EASA licence for another EU country issued one before Brexit?

The next question is particular to my circumstances.

I have a Spanish wife and a son/daughter-in-law/grandson living in the USA. I now want to get a light aircraft licence after 25 years instructing on microlights so I can hire an aircraft in Spain and the USA..

If I do an intensive course in Spain, can I get a Spanish-issued EASA SEP - or are the written exam questions in Spanish?

If I do an intensive course in the USA, and get a FAA licence, how straightforward is it to get a non-UK EASA SEP. I think it is very easy to get an FAA licence on the back of a European one.

I am reluctant to go for a UK-issued EASA SEP when - if Brexit ends up no deal - I could just add an SSEA rating to my NPPL once I had an FAA or EASA licence.

Thoughts?

[charliegolf]

He actually said the prospect of the UK leaving the EU without a deal was:

"a relatively unlikely possibility, but it is a possibility".

CG

[TheOddOne]

All things are possible, including all aviation above paper dart level being grounded on 30th March 2019.
The least likely a/c to be grounded are, funnily enough, microlights as the group of aircraft/licences almost wholly self governing.
Since in the event of a no-deal Brexit, there won't be any AVGAS 100LL, as it's all imported from Europe, there won't be any SEP flying.
Actually, lack of aviation will be the least of our worries. I read somewhere that we're only 24 hours at any stage of a disruption of the supply chain, from food riots and mass looting of supermarkets.
It'll make the poll tax riots look like a Sunday afternoon in the park.
We're buying seeds and marking out the lawn for vegetable beds.
TOO

[Dusty_B]

You can move your EASA license to another state quite easily. If you get an EASA license from the CAA and all goes tits-up, just move it to Spain, Ireland or the Netherlands before the deadline.

[Kemble Pitts]

B61, seems a tad aggressive don't you think?,

I would suspect the TOO was being somewhat tongue in cheek about a possible, but not necessarily likely, problem.

[xrayalpha]

Dusty_B,

Thanks for that comment. So no need to be resident in any of those countries?

As regards chances of No Deal etc, I am just thinking along the lines of better safe than sorry, or be prepared,

If there was a 1% chance of No Deal, not much preparation. For a higher chance - whatever one might think it to be - then there would a be a higher level.

Some things, like topping up the avgas tanks at the airfield towards the end of March rather than the beginning of April, would be a sensible move?

But my query was really about licensing.

[rarelyathome]

You can change you EASA licence issuer to a different state but your medical must be issued there also. The question then is whether the UK would recognise it post BREXIT if a tit for tat war breaks out.

[xrayalpha]

Thanks for that Rarely.

Solves part of my problem then.

No problem flying in the UK on my own C42 microlight, and then I can get a Spanish EASA SEP for hiring in wife's country and then use that to get an FAA licence for hiring in son's country.

Just need to swim from UK to France in case of a complete meltdown ;-)

[selfin]

... in the event of a no-deal Brexit, there won't be any AVGAS 100LL, as it's all imported from Europe, there won't be any SEP flying.


And yet the only place still making TEL is Innospec in Cheshire: "Our Octane Additives business is the world’s only manufacturer of tetraethyl lead (TEL) products." [ Octane Additives (http://www.innospecinc.com/our-markets/octane-additives/octane-additives) ]

[Whopity]

A number of European States that are not members of the EU issue EASA licences with no problems. Apart from pig headed arrogance, why would the UK be any different?

[PDR1]

Because to do that you have to be a paying (but non-voting) member of EASA. And to be a member of EASA you have to accept the ECJ as the ultiumate arbiter on aviation issues. Accepting ECJ jurisdiction crosses the red lines of the Brexit Elite, so they would rather destroy the whole nation, trash our economy and return us to the dark ages than ever admit they were wrong. They're just that sort of people.

PDR

[The Old Fat One]

Honest man tell student...

Ignore all speculation and b/s. Six months nothing in overall scheme of life. Take trip, work in MacDonalds. Come back when all b/s is over and make informed choice. Good luck, grassshopper.

...still, flying training not always known for putting students interests first is it.

[Captain Stravaigin]

Because to do that you have to be a paying (but non-voting) member of EASA. And to be a member of EASA you have to accept the ECJ as the ultiumate arbiter on aviation issues. Accepting ECJ jurisdiction crosses the red lines of the Brexit Elite, so they would rather destroy the whole nation, trash our economy and return us to the dark ages than ever admit they were wrong. They're just that sort of people.

PDR



bad news all round

[timprice]

CAP 1705 Automatic validation anyone?

[172510]

You can change you EASA licence issuer to a different state but your medical must be issued there also. The question then is whether the UK would recognise it post BREXIT if a tit for tat war breaks out.
Not exactly. You medical records must be held by the license issuer, but you can have your medical examination done by any EASA medical centre. So when you transfer your license, your first step is to have your medical records transferred.
The other tricky part is the proficiency check/skill test/assessment of competence issue. Depending on the new license issuer, it can be easy, difficult, or impossible to have those checks/tests/assessments undertaken by an examiner whose license is issued by another EASA state.
I have had my license transferred from the UK to France, it took several weeks, so plan it in advance.

[172510]

I heard once that one of the baltic states' CAA has a reputation of being efficient and is cheap. It might be a good choice for a new license issuer.

[BillieBob]

CAP 1705 Automatic validation anyone?Only if we remain in the EU and you're operating commercially, outside the EU, in an aircraft registered in an EU state other than that which issued your licence.

[flyingkeyboard]

This affects me as I’m a PPL student. If things change then surely there will be some sort of licence that I can apply for?

[xrayalpha]

Flying keyboard,

Yes, there will be. But what?

The obvious solution is for the UK CAA to recognise your training and give you an NPPL SSEA. At least that will allow you to continue to fly in the UK.

Question: will the CAA have got its act together - or is it even allowed to do anything while part of EASA? - and negotiate with ICAO to make the NPPL SSEA (or a brand new old-fashioned UK PPL A) an ICAO compliant licence that you can later add CPL etc to?

Maybe we should have a wiki to pose some of these questions and possible answers.

For instance, will UK airspace close on Brexit plus one? ATC have EASA licences! Will many airlines be grounded with many of their pilots having UK CAA issued EASA licences? How will transatlantic stuff re-route?

Will it matter if UK airspace is closed for a week or two while temporary solutions are fudged? After all, the world never came to halt when the ash clouds shut our airspace for weeks.

As you can see, I feel all will be OK for the Big Boys. But what about the Small Fry like FKB?

FKB: ask your flying school. See what they say!

[Whopity]

The UK issue ICAO licences, always has done and always will do. An ICAO licence is valid Worldwide and oddly, the only people who seem to have an issue with ICAO licences is EASA who are not a member of ICAO. The EU list of objectives given to EASA by the EC includes: "Assisting member States to comply with ICAO recommemdations" Switzerland and the Channel Islands are not in the EU, they don't seem to have any problems.

[BEagle]

BillieBob, 'COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) 2018/1065 of 27 July 2018 amending Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 as regards the automatic validation of Union flight crew licences' states that the following new point (e) shall apply to FCL.045:(e) A pilot intending to fly outside Union territory on an aircraft registered in a Member State other than the one that issued the flight crew licence shall carry, in print or in electronic format, the latest issue of the ICAO attachment, which includes a reference to the ICAO registration number of the agreement that recognises the automatic validation of licences, as well as the list of States which are party to this agreement. I can find nothing which states that this only applies to commercial operations. Have you a reference other than CAP 1705?

[BillieBob]

I have no reference other than CAP1705, which states:
Those affected
All pilots holding a licence issued by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (the UK), in accordance with Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 as amended, operating commercially for a European Operator, whose aircraft are on the register of a EU Member State which is also a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).Is it possible that the UK CAA have got it wrong? Surely not!

[Whopity]

Usual problem: New CAP Friday; Wrong on Monday!

[BEagle]

I put the question to the CAA yesterday and had a reply today.

It is aimed at CAT but as an ICAO reference for EU pilot licences it could be used by GA also. As it's free the advice would be to carry a copy.


Seems entirely reasonable to me.

I also asked whether it would apply to a pilot with a UK-issued Part-FCL licence flying, for example, a French registered aircraft to Jersey....which is neither an EU nor EASA Member State.

Or what administrative action would be required for a pilot with a UK-issued Part-FCL flying an IoM registered aircraft to Eire?

My supplementary questions will have to wait until the chap responsible returns from his hols.

[selfin]

BEagle,

The Isle of Man and Channel Islands fall under the UK's ratification of the Chicago Convention, IASTA, etc.

The IoM CAA states (https://www.gov.im/categories/business-and-industries/civil-aviation-administration-caa/international-civil-aviation-organisation-icao/):

The Isle of Man is an ICAO compliant territory under the United Kingdom (UK) signatory to the Chicago Convention.

The Isle of Man is a British Crown Dependency (CD). The UK Government is responsible for the international relations of the Island, including extending ratifications of international agreements to the Isle of Man as necessary. The UK ratification of the Chicago Convention covers the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the UK’s Overseas Territories and the CDs. This is detailed in the State Safety Programme for the Isle of Man Chapter 1 para 1.3.

The obligations of the UK and Isle of Man with respect to the Chicago Convention are detailed in a Memorandum of Understanding between the UK and Isle of Man Governments. The Isle of Man fulfils its UK and ICAO obligations by full participation in the ICAO Universal Safety Oversight Programme.

This position is also addressed in a Ministry of Justice fact sheet (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/734590/crown-dependencies-factsheet.pdf) on the UK's relationship with the Crown Dependencies:

4. International Personality

The Crown Dependencies are not recognised internationally as sovereign States in their own
right but as “territories for which the United Kingdom is responsible”. As such they cannot sign
up to international agreements under their own aegis but can have the UK’s ratification of such
instruments extended to them, and can sign specific international agreements if they have
been entrusted to do so by the UK ...

...

6. Treaties and international agreements
Article 29 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties provides that “unless a different
intention appears from the treaty or is otherwise established, a treaty is binding upon each
party in respect of its entire territory”. The long-standing practice of the UK when it ratifies,
accedes to, or accepts a treaty, convention or agreement is to do so on behalf of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and any of the Crown Dependencies or
Overseas Territories that wish the treaty to apply to them. The UK’s ratification, accession or
acceptance can also be extended at a later date.

...

Further details can be found in annexes referred to in the above fact sheet.

Annex B (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/185881/international-instruments-crown-dependencies.pdf) -- How to Note on the extension of international instruments to the Crown Dependencies.

Annex C (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/185882/request-extend-international-instrument.pdf) -- How to Note on dealing with requests from the Crown Dependencies to extend the UK's ratification of international instruments.

[Fl1ingfrog]

One contributor has described much of the facts in this thread as bl/sht and I agree. All 28 members (soon to be 27) of the EU member states are members of ICAO in their own right. There are 192 members of ICAO worldwide so the EU group is a small part. ICAO it could be said only provides for the minimum acceptable international standards of all its members. So all EASA standards will be acceptable to ICAO member states in this regard. The UK leaving the EU does not change this. The EU cannot join ICAO it is not a State. Incidentally 7 of the current 28 EU states sit on the worldwide council of ICAO!

For all flights it is the individual state that decides who may crew their aircraft and that has not changed even within the EU. All EU states have a common standard. therefore there cannot be an objection to a UK pilot compliant with both ICAO and EASA flying a German registered aircraft unless Germany objects. e.g. EASA cannot intervene directly and it will need to bring pressure on Germany and further claim Germany is in breach of its agreement with the EU. Outside of EASA land the EU is not part of it in this instance. All this, to me therefore, appears to be bureaucrats getting themselves in a tangle and nothing new there.

I would say to any concerned student put all this nonsense out of your mind and concentrate on the training. Your new licence will be recognised worldwide.

Where the UK has got itself into its own tangle was to state that the UK ICAO compliant PPL/CPL and ATPL is to restrict itself to UK privileges only, although it was and should be recognised throughout the world once again

[flyingkeyboard]

Flying keyboard,

Yes, there will be. But what?

The obvious solution is for the UK CAA to recognise your training and give you an NPPL SSEA. At least that will allow you to continue to fly in the UK.

Question: will the CAA have got its act together - or is it even allowed to do anything while part of EASA? - and negotiate with ICAO to make the NPPL SSEA (or a brand new old-fashioned UK PPL A) an ICAO compliant licence that you can later add CPL etc to?

Maybe we should have a wiki to pose some of these questions and possible answers.

For instance, will UK airspace close on Brexit plus one? ATC have EASA licences! Will many airlines be grounded with many of their pilots having UK CAA issued EASA licences? How will transatlantic stuff re-route?

Will it matter if UK airspace is closed for a week or two while temporary solutions are fudged? After all, the world never came to halt when the ash clouds shut our airspace for weeks.

As you can see, I feel all will be OK for the Big Boys. But what about the Small Fry like FKB?

FKB: ask your flying school. See what they say!

Definitey will - thanks for taking the time to post, really useful..!

[BONES_]

Is the CAA still issuing national (non-EASA) CPL/ATPLs?

[Whopity]

Yes, according to the ANO:
Grant, renewal and privileges of United Kingdom flight crew licences
152.—(1) Subject to article 172, the CAA or a person approved by the CAA for that purpose must grant licences of any of the classes specified in Part 1 of Schedule 8, authorising the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of a non-EASA aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, if it is satisfied that the applicant is—
(a) a fit person to hold the licence; and
(b) qualified by having the knowledge, experience, competence, skill and physical and mental fitness to act in the capacity to which the licence relates.

[BONES_]

So, would it be a sensible move for an EASA licence holder (UK issued of course) to apply for a UK national equivalent licence? De facto having 2 licences running ‘parallel’ to each other.

Just in case the proverbial hits the fan big style.... by 30th March, one could have a UK national ATPL and an EASA ATPL transferred to another member state?

thanks

[Whopity]

On the grounds that you should never throw away anything that is hard earned, it is well worth ticking the box and having 2 licences.

From the Scheme of Charges:3.4 National UK Pilot’s Licence – issue to retain National UK ratings When making a conversion / replacement application specified in Tables 1 or 3, where, in addition to the issue of an EASA Pilot Licence, the applicant requires also the issue or grant of a National UK Pilot’s Licence in order to retain National UK ratings, the applicant shall pay to the CAA a supplementary charge of £37.

[BONES_]

I've been looking for days on the CAA website to find a suitable srg form to apply for a national licence based on my EASA ATPL but no joy. Any lead please? thank you

[Whopity]

There is no form. You have to use the SRG1104 modified accordingly. If you were converting to an EASA licence you only had to tick the box in Section 4. I note that SRG1104 has now gone to an on-line form.

[selfin]

The paper version is also acceptable (link (https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=452)). Licensing advises including a covering letter. Licences permitted by the Air Navigation Order as I understand it are mapped here (PDF (https://goo.gl/ZBqfFW)).

[BONES_]

I upgraded straight from JAR CPL to EASA ATPL early 2017; the form I used back then did not have any box to tick - I think it was srg/1183. I did not query this matter at time (i know i should have!) because my newly issued licence had more pressing errors I had to urgently fix!

Thank you very much for the help guys :)

[S-Works]

I would rather not leave EASA as it becomes career ending for me....... I am a UK FE/CRE/TRE and do enough line flying for currency. The rest of my work is travelling around Europe testing pilots on our rather unique fleet. Not being able to test EASA licence holders would not only end my career but have a huge impact on the companies ability to operate.

[Daysleeper]

One contributor has described much of the facts in this thread as bl/sht and I agree. All 28 members (soon to be 27) of the EU member states are members of ICAO in their own right. There are 192 members of ICAO worldwide so the EU group is a small part. ICAO it could be said only provides for the minimum acceptable international standards of all its members. So all EASA standards will be acceptable to ICAO member states in this regard. The UK leaving the EU does not change this. The EU cannot join ICAO it is not a State. Incidentally 7 of the current 28 EU states sit on the worldwide council of ICAO!

I would say to any concerned student put all this nonsense out of your mind and concentrate on the training. Your new licence will be recognised worldwide.

Where the UK has got itself into its own tangle was to state that the UK ICAO compliant PPL/CPL and ATPL is to restrict itself to UK privileges only, although it was and should be recognised throughout the world once again

Except, in a no deal scenario the UK won't be ICAO compliant on Brexit day. Lots of things the UK files to be ICAO compliant are simply statements pointing to EASA or other pan-EU policy / groups. As it will have no access to the regulatory structure of the EU and EASA it will not be compliant. The implications of this are enormous and affect every part of the UK air industry and anyone with a UK licence or approval of any sort or any kind of third-country endorsement based on a UK licence or approval. It is increasingly likely they will all be invalid on 30 March 2019.

Now it may be possible to reinstate these missing CAA areas but not by March 29 2019 and not without vast expense which (in-case you hadn't noticed) the CAA is required to recover from you the user.

This is why the CAA were saying for a long time that a "no-deal" Brexit is so catastrophic it isn't worth planning for. There is no viable alternative to a deal that keeps the UK in EASA, at least temporarily, and talk from UK politicians of "no-deal" being fine is insanity of the highest order. If this affects you, you need to be hassling your MP to find an exit from Brexit before it destroys your livelihood.

[Whopity]

Except, in a no deal scenario the UK won't be ICAO compliant on Brexit day. What utter rubbish. ICAO compliance has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU who are not even a signatory to ICAO. ICAO compliance means operating in accordance with ICAO recommendations which the UK has always done in and out of the EU.

[Daysleeper]

What utter rubbish. ICAO compliance has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU who are not even a signatory to ICAO. ICAO compliance means operating in accordance with ICAO recommendations which the UK has always done in and out of the EU.


OK, I'll give you an easy one to start with: explain how the UK currently complies with ICAO Annex 19 standards and how it will comply with it on 30 March 2019.

[Whopity]

ICAO Annex 19 is aimed at member States; each State is responsible to ICAO for compliance and notification of any differences. The oversight afforded by EASA is not covered in the Annex 19 process and ammounts to nothing more than a middleman that has no responsibility to ICAO as it is neither a State nor a member.

[Daysleeper]

ICAO Annex 19 is aimed at member States; each State is responsible to ICAO for compliance and notification of any differences. The oversight afforded by EASA is not covered in the Annex 19 process and ammounts to nothing more than a middleman that has no responsibility to ICAO as it is neither a State nor a member.

The UK as an ICAO signatory commits to doing certain things but lots of the things it tells ICAO it does are actually things EASA does for it. When or if it leaves the EASA / EU there are a long list of things it will no longer have the technical ability to do and so either there is a massive increase in CAA capability (like 300 extra staff and five to ten years according to RAeS) or there is a load of state differences being filed by the UK and the associated risk control actions by other states for dealing with non-compliant signatories.

Picking on one tiny bit of Annex 19 .. it requires a system to collect, analyse and exchange safety data. How do we do that today...oh look it's via a pan European system that the UK only has access to through its membership of the EU / EASA. So come Brexit day, without an agreement, the UK loses access to a central support of its state safety program. Now maybe the CAA has kept the software for the MOR scheme kicking about on an old database somewhere and can solve this one... but this is just one of a very very long list of technical capabilities the UK is required by ICAO to have and will no longer have. Multiply this by everything else currently done by EASA and then think of the damage done by a decade of Cat 2 status to the UK industry.

[rudestuff]

Exactly. EASA is an EU club that has nothing to do with the ICAO. The UK is already a member.

[S-Works]

Exactly. EASA is an EU club that has nothing to do with the ICAO. The UK is already a member.

It still does not solve my problem.

[Fl1ingfrog]

Daysleeper

You appear to be misunderstanding ICAO. The UK and all the other states of the EU are independently members of ICAO, indeed seven of them including the UK are permanent members of the ICAO council. It follows then that anything that EASA does is not in conflict with ICAO and EASA has never sought to be so.

Even if Brexit should happen without agreement there is nothing to prevent the UK continuing as an EASA operator, indeed EASA would like the whole world to join them.

[S-Works]

Daysleeper

You appear to be misunderstanding ICAO. The UK and all the other states of the EU are independently members of ICAO, indeed seven of them including the UK are permanent members of the ICAO council. It follows then that anything that EASA does is not in conflict with ICAO and EASA has never sought to be so.

Even if Brexit should happen without agreement there is nothing to prevent the UK continuing as an EASA operator, indeed EASA would like the whole world to join them.

Something I pray will happen!! The crass stupidity of Brexit will rob us of our voting seat at the EASA table but hopefully we will stay members in the Norway/Swiss style. To leave EASA will be a disaster of biblical proportions not only for the flight training industry but UK aviation as a whole. No number of nationally issued UK licences will make up for the loss of EASA privileges that so many of us rely on for a living. To think otherwise is just "fraggle rock" mentality.

[Fl1ingfrog]

I'm very sympathetic to the concerns that people like bose-x express. There is so much rubbish out there spurred on by amatuer dramatists. As many have already suggested the option to transfer the admin of your licence to another EASA state is an option, now! The Dept. of Transport (CAA), who will ultimately decide, in truth, will find it hard to refuse a UK citizen the issue of a UK licence based on a current held EASA ATPL/CPL/PPL licence, having previously forced the UK pilot down that path in the first place.

Although you cannot hold two EASA aeroplane licenses you can of course hold as many non EASA licenses as you choose. How these would be maintained is the relevant question.

It is true the EU parliament sans the UK will have the final vote but that in the main is irrelevant. The real work is dome in the working groups made up by representatives of all members. The working groups are constituted primarily by relevant professionals although I'm told some countries do send politicians to these groups. So, if the UK remains in EASA it will hopefully continue to influence.

[Daysleeper]

Daysleeper

You appear to be misunderstanding ICAO. The UK and all the other states of the EU are independently members of ICAO, indeed seven of them including the UK are permanent members of the ICAO council. It follows then that anything that EASA does is not in conflict with ICAO and EASA has never sought to be so.

Even if Brexit should happen without agreement there is nothing to prevent the UK continuing as an EASA operator, indeed EASA would like the whole world to join them.

You seem to be misunderstanding my ICAO post. I'm not saying the UK would leave ICAO, I''m saying that where the UK currently can point to its ICAO compliance in the future it will have to invest in staff and capability to replace EASA in-order to continue to do so. It is widely reported by both the CAA , RAeS and others that this cannot be done by Brexit day.

If the UK can stay in EASA then great, even better if it can stay as a full member... but that relies on there being a deal done and at the moment the UK government position is that a no-deal exit is the most likely scenario and the only deal they are prepared to offer is one that has been rejected by the EU. There are, approximately, 2 months left to agree a deal in time for it to be ratified. The UK is on the edge of a cliff and still arguing with itself about whether gravity does or doesn't exist.

[BONES_]

Meanwhile many, including myself, have been formally instructed to change SOLI

[S-Works]

Meanwhile many, including myself, have been formally instructed to change SOLI

As have I. However...... You can SOLI licence and ratings Including Instructor ratings, BUT you cant SOLI Examiner approvals. Examiners are appointed on a national basis and I have yet to find a country that will appoint a newly SOLI'd pilot as an Examiner. Just like the UK they expect you to have in depth experience and knowledge of your NAA before even considering your application. As a huge amount of my work is Examining its a show stopper for me......

[Non-PC Plod]

As have I. However...... You can SOLI licence and ratings Including Instructor ratings, BUT you cant SOLI Examiner approvals. Examiners are appointed on a national basis and I have yet to find a country that will appoint a newly SOLI'd pilot as an Examiner. Just like the UK they expect you to have in depth experience and knowledge of your NAA before even considering your application. As a huge amount of my work is Examining its a show stopper for me......

I seem to be the exception to your rule. I was appointed a TRE shortly after changing state of licence issue.

[S-Works]

I seem to be the exception to your rule. I was appointed a TRE shortly after changing state of licence issue.

A TRE is actually the outsider in the this discussion as it would normally be appointed as part of the day job flying for an airline or other AOC operator. Its the FE/CRE/IRE stuff that is more difficult as that is a result of progression. Every NAO I have spoken to so far have refused to transfer Examiner Ratings.]

[Whopity]

For what its worth CAA statement 11 Sept:

“The CAA will continue to issue and reissue pilots' licences when they are lost, damaged, when details need to be changed or pilots' privileges updated as we do now. Over time, this would include removing references to EASA - a purely cosmetic change. There will be no requirement for licences to be re-issued for any other reason meaning that there will be no change to this process.

“The CAA also strongly refutes any suggestion that we are concerned about our ability to provide safety oversight to the UK aviation industry should no-deal be reached between the UK and the EU. The safety of passengers, crew and those on the ground remains our absolute priority and nothing has changed in this respect.
They did re-issue all pilot licences a few years ago to include "ELP"

[Fl1ingfrog]

The full CAA statement in response to the Sky article:

Commenting on today's Sky News story on UK aviation and Brexit, Mark Swan, Group Director of Safety and Airspace Regulation at the UK Civil Aviation Authority, said:

“It is misleading for Sky News to say that pilots would need to renew their pilot's licence in a 'no-deal' Brexit scenario. Both commercial and private UK pilot licences would remain valid for use on UK-registered aircraft as the United Kingdom is a signatory to the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) Chicago Convention. Our licences are internationally recognised - including by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) - both now and after 29 March 2019.

“The CAA will continue to issue and reissue pilots' licences when they are lost, damaged, when details need to be changed or pilots' privileges updated as we do now. Over time, this would include removing references to EASA - a purely cosmetic change. There will be no requirement for licences to be re-issued for any other reason meaning that there will be no change to this process.

“The CAA also strongly refutes any suggestion that we are concerned about our ability to provide safety oversight to the UK aviation industry should no-deal be reached between the UK and the EU. The safety of passengers, crew and those on the ground remains our absolute priority and nothing has changed in this respect. Sky News has unfortunately confused EASA approval of new aircraft and component design with our existing national safety oversight obligations.

“As a responsible regulator, the CAA has been planning for all eventualities in the negotiations, including that of a 'no-deal', for some time. Our planning and contingency is advanced and we continue to work closely with the Government to prepare the industry for all scenarios.”

[Arewerunning]

are you guys really saying that you can't trasfer examiner tating like IRE or FE?

I can't find anything on that matter that would prevent that.

Please tell me you are wrong!

[Whopity]

Each State appoints Examiners to meet its own requirements. There is no process for transfering an Examiner Certificate between States. A pilot who transfers SOLI would need to apply to the new Authority for an Examiner Certificate.If you hold a multitude of certificates that could be a lengthy process.

[S-Works]

are you guys really saying that you can't trasfer examiner tating like IRE or FE?

I can't find anything on that matter that would prevent that.

Please tell me you are wrong!
nope. Already inquired to a number of states. You start at the bottom again.

[antiseptic]

The doom-mongers are doing my head in. Both sides want a deal so only the most incompetent and lemming-like of negotiators could ever manage to end up without one.

(Oh, hang on a minute...)

[slr737]

A TRE is actually the outsider in the this discussion as it would normally be appointed as part of the day job flying for an airline or other AOC operator. Its the FE/CRE/IRE stuff that is more difficult as that is a result of progression. Every NAO I have spoken to so far have refused to transfer Examiner Ratings.]

A friend when moving from Belgium CAA to the IAA (for a well know operator) had all his examiner rating transferred at the same time. FE, IRE, CRE, FIE and TRE. the only thing that was not transferred was Senior Examiner.

I do not think the IAA have their own examiner course yet and rely on other authorities course.

An other friend, SOLI to Luxembourg, just had to make a AoC with a Luxembourg SE to regain his FE.

[jez d]

I wonder how much income the CAA will lose as airlines and pilots move their operations/licences to other EU Member States? The 2019 CAA Scheme of Charges consultation, due out next month, should prove interesting

[Duchess_Driver]

A friend when moving from Belgium CAA to the IAA (for a well know operator) had all his examiner rating transferred at the same time.

as did I - UK CAA to IAA.

[S-Works]

as did I - UK CAA to IAA.

I already approached them. If i Was flying for Ryanair they would do it. But as a third party with no other connection they are not prepared to do it. Currently having the conversation with Austro Control so will report back on the answer.

[flaingmick]

How do the CAAs of Ireland or Luxembourg treat “foreign” pilots? I am living in Germany with UK EASA licence and think about changing SOLI to Ireland or Luxembourg. Which one would be better?

where and how to get medical and how to revalidate the licence every other year?

I would initiate the process in November in order to be well ahead of the brexit date next year.

[flight beyond sight]

I already approached them. If i Was flying for Ryanair they would do it. But as a third party with no other connection they are not prepared to do it. Currently having the conversation with Austro Control so will report back on the answer.

Just FYI and I appreciate I am a rotary pilot, the Belgian CAA will accept without question my FE / FIE / IRE certificates based on my UK issued EASA if that helps

[Whopity]

the Belgian CAA will accept without question my FE / FIE / IRE That migh be to do with not having the capability to train their own and using UK resoures to do it. I trained a Belgian Examiner a few years ago.

[Peter PanPan]

There is no form. You have to use the SRG1104 modified accordingly. If you were converting to an EASA licence you only had to tick the box in Section 4. I note that SRG1104 has now gone to an on-line form.
Hey Whopity,

I filled out the form SRG1104 and have applied for a UK National ATPL(H) on the basis of my UK issued EASA ATPL(H).

I am not entirely clear though which type rating can go onto the UK ANO license, since my EASA license has a heavy multi-engine helicopter type rating on it - which is a "EASA" aircraft.

After having a look at the list of "Annex II to Regulation 216/2008" aircraft, it appears I would have to get rated on either a single-seater helicopter or some vintage model:
https://www.caa.co.uk/general-aviation/pilot-licences/introduction-to-licensing/what-is-a-non-easa-aircraft-/

Any rotary PPruner out there who's been through this process? Any leads on concrete aircraft ratings currently available in the market that could serve the purpose of Annex II?

Many thanks.

Peter

[Whopity]

In my experience, any valid ratings that are on your EASA licence will appear on your National licence.

[BillieBob]

After having a look at the list of "Annex II to Regulation 216/2008" aircraftRegulation 216/2008 has been repealed as of 11 September 2018 (over 2 months ago) and has been replaced by Regulation 2018/1139 - Annex II is now Annex I. Don't you just love the way that our 'competent' authority keeps us so well informed of fundamental changes in the law?

[Whopity]

Don't you just love the way that our 'competent' authority keeps us so well informed of fundamental changes in the law? Don't you remember they sent out a letter saying that changes were on the way and its up to you to find out, because we are not going to tell you. So far they have kept to their word however; it does appear that they don't actually know when the changes took place.

[janrein]

I am not entirely clear though which type rating can go onto the UK ANO license, [...]

If I may append my case and question:

I hold a UKCAA issued EASA CPL(A)
Long ago (2003) I have been flying a Piper J3, now a non-EASA a/c.
Now just that remote J3 experience may not be bring any rights, but can some training (plus Skills Test?) gain me a J3 non-EASA "type" rating and a UK ANO CPL?
If so, can I get ratings held on my UKCAA issued EASA licence copied into that UK ANO CPL?
The aim obviously is to maintain a UK licence, the non-EASA variant, and transfer the UK-EASA licence to a non-UK EASA licence, having all ratings (except J3) on both.

Thanks for any thoughts.

jr

[Peter PanPan]

In my experience, any valid ratings that are on your EASA licence will appear on your National licence.
My understanding was that the purpose of the National License was to allow pilots to fly aircraft that are still regulated by individual national authorities. This impression has certainly been reinforced after contacting the UK CAA licensing department, as the licensing officer describes issuing a National License as an exception under specific circumstances that justify doing so - not as a right.

[selfin]

... the licensing officer describes issuing a National License as an exception under specific circumstances that justify doing so - not as a right.

The Air Navigation Order at article 152 requires CAA to grant a UK pilot's licence. If a suitable application is turned down then proceed with a regulation 6 appeal and if that fails seek a judicial review. Alternatively each of us can follow the CAA example and selectively ignore bits of law that are inconvenient.

[Peter PanPan]

The Air Navigation Order at article 152 requires CAA to grant a UK pilot's licence. If a suitable application is turned down then proceed with a regulation 6 appeal and if that fails seek a judicial review. Alternatively each of us can follow the CAA example and selectively ignore bits of law that are inconvenient.
Many thanks Selfin, I appreciate your input - however Brexit it just around the corner and I would hate to move in the direction of a judicial review (Aware that as I write this the government is still working on a deal). I find it somewhat confusing when the CAA uses so many "may" and present it as a conditional process. If one already holds a EASA license issued by the CAA, then issuing a national license should be a mere formality.

[Whopity]

Now just that remote J3 experience may not be bring any rights, but can some training (plus Skills Test?) gain me a J3 non-EASA "type" rating and a UK ANO CPL? A J3 is covered by an SEP Class rating. So long as you have a valid SEP Class rating it can go onto either licence. Of course you don't need a UK licence to fly the J3 as it would also be covered by the SEP on an EASA licence which is rendered valid on UK registered (AnnexI) aircraft.

[janrein]

A J3 is covered by an SEP Class rating.

Thanks for clarifying.

jr

[Peter PanPan]

So finally received in the mail box my UK ANO license issued on the basis of my EASA license, however there are no entries under IR nor type rating - although I hold both an IR valid for multi-engine helicopters and an SK92 type rating (Which is an "EASA" aircraft). The only rating that was passed on was the FI(H).

This being the first time I hold a UK ANO license, would anyone to care to confirm whether national license can have an IR or a night rating on them?

Many thanks.

Peter

[Whopity]

Your UK National licence should contain all ratings that were valid at the time of application. You should have provided them with certified evidence (Rating validity page) with your application of all rating you wished to have on the licence. If you did this then complain if they were not included..

[W Smith]

Yes they can as long as they apply to class ratings and/or non-EASA aircraft types, but if they are for EASA aircraft types.

Here is some background, which some may know and others may not - plus some predictions:

In the beginning there were UK national licences that could carry ratings for any aircraft on the UK register.
Then JAR-FCL came along. These licences were still under national law and were added to the Air Navigation Order. Being national these could still include any aircraft type or class, including microlights etc. But some of the rules for JAR-FCL licences were different and they had the privileges of being valid for aircraft registered in any JAA Member State.
When EASA and Part-FCL arrived that all changed. Part-FCL licences are valid under European law and can only hold ratings for EASA aircraft. UK national licences remained valid under the ANO but only for non-EASA aircraft (formerly called Annex II, now Annex I due to a renumbering in the EASA regulation). JAR-FCL licences and rules were removed from the ANO leaving only the original national licences but with a prohibition on including EASA types/ratings in those national licences.
To try to prevent licences being issued with the wrong ratings, the CAA's computer software was amended to produce national licences and European Part-FCL with inbuilt rules that ensured that only ratings included in Part-FCL went on Part-FCL licences and only ANO ratings went on UK national licences. These cannot be overridden. And that is how it remains today as we are still in the EU.
So today, the CAA can't put anything associated with an EASA type on a national licence - computer says 'no'.
I am guessing that the machine and/or the staff see your night rating and IR as being tied to the SK92 and so not eligible to go on the UK licence.

So what about the B word?
The CAA's plan for Brexit is that they will copy all of the EU aviation regulations into UK national law, but alongside the ANO.
The draft legislation to do this has already been published. It is hard to read as it is just the edits, but what it appears to do is adopt all of the European texts but replacing: EASA with CAA, EASA aircraft with Part 21 aircraft; and non-EASA aircraft with non-Part 21 aircraft.
So if the UK leaves the EASA system the CAA will then issue UK-FCL licences in place of Part-FCL licences. The UK-FCL licences will have the ratings for Part 21 (EASA) aircraft and the old national licences will continue as now with just the ratings for non-Part 21 (non-EASA) aircraft types.
This will mean minimum change for licence holders and the CAA.

So, in years to come will they change it so the UK national licence can hold any rating?
I doubt it, because it is not essential and would cost a lot of time and money, not least in writing new software.

And my prediction is that the CAA is going to become very short of money very soon as other UK airlines follow Easyjet's lead and become European to protect their access to European routes. (It has been reported in the general media that Easyjet is moving it's AOC to Austria; that they have transferred 130 aircraft to the Austrian register; and over 3000 of their pilots now have Austrian issued Part-FCL licences). As I recall about 50% of the CAA's income is from the charges paid by UK airlines. I note that Thomson rebranded as TUI awhile ago (the name of their german parent company) and British Airways is owned by IAG who also own Iberia. So British Airways could just become 'BA' (as British Aerospace became BAES) and cut itself free from the UK and the CAA. I think that may happen whether or not Brexit goes ahead given that the government is incapable of giving industry any certainty for future planning.
So my prediction is that, within a few years of Brexit, there won't be any major UK commercial operators, even if we eventually settle on staying in the EASA system. Those companies will still be here but they will be European companies regulated by EASA and the remaining EU Member States. The CAA will be left with UK airspace, ATC, aerodromes and UK non-Part 21 (non-EASA type) aircraft - i.e. homebuilt aircraft, ex-military, microlights, gyroplanes and drones.
I understand this is called "taking back control".

[Peter PanPan]

Many thanks for your reply Whopity.

I certainly did provided the CAA with certified evidence with my application as required, otherwise they wouldn't even have processed my application.

What astonishes me though is that even if I hadn't submitted a certified copy of my current Part-FCL license with all my ratings, why can't the CAA just issue a document on the basis of what they have on file? Or isn't a there a file? I would have thought that they keep a database of pilots' records, specially considering the doc 155 procedure that requires the authority to officially confirm to another competent authority which type of license and ratings one currently has.

If one looses one's license for instance and can only provide the license reference number or even proof of ID, wouldn't the CAA be able to reissue a license on the basis of that person's identity without a "certified copy of the current license"?

I am all in favor of additional layers of security to confirm one's identity and prevent fraud, but it seems absurd that despite all the bureaucracy the licensing department cannot get this right.

[Whopity]

All held in a big electronic pot and they Google it out. Once upon a time they had a microfiche with every bit of communication between you and them, but all long gone now. Its all down to the luck of the draw!

[Peter PanPan]

Oh and not to mention the actual form SRG1104 duly filled out with all the ratings on it (5. Ratings Held), so not only did the licensing officer have the "big electronic pot" to refer to, the certified copy of my license but also the form SRG1104 listing all the ratings. Despite all of that, still managed to cock-up. Perhaps things will get more efficient following a no-deal Brexit? :rolleyes:

[justasmallfire]

Oh and not to mention the actual form SRG1104 duly filled out with all the ratings on it (5. Ratings Held), so not only did the licensing officer have the "big electronic pot" to refer to, the certified copy of my license but also the form SRG1104 listing all the ratings. Despite all of that, still managed to cock-up. Perhaps things will get more efficient following a no-deal Brexit? :rolleyes:

Hi I know its some time since you posted about getting a UK national licence, did you eventually get any luck on adding your type ratings and IR?
Just sent off for mine and a collegue also his which came back without having a rating on and I got email from UK CAA saying type ratings will not be placed on to UK licence.
I guess will have to apply for third licence when EASA change over happens although I would like to exchange that to another member state first.

[Peter PanPan]

Hi I know its some time since you posted about getting a UK national licence, did you eventually get any luck on adding your type ratings and IR?
Just sent off for mine and a collegue also his which came back without having a rating on and I got email from UK CAA saying type ratings will not be placed on to UK licence.
I guess will have to apply for third licence when EASA change over happens although I would like to exchange that to another member state first.

I did get a national licence which included an FI rating, however the IR was not included nor the aircraft I am currently type rated on. My guess is that since the aircraft I am rated on is an "EASA aircraft" and we're still in the transition period, the CAA cannot add it onto my national license - happy to be corrected though, as it is still a mystery after well over a year waiting to hear back from the CAA.

[Whopity]

the CAA cannot add it onto my national license - happy to be corrected though, as it is still a mystery after well over a year waiting to hear back from the CAA.

152.—(1) Subject to article 172, the CAA or a person approved by the CAA for that purpose
must grant licences of any of the classes specified in Part 1 of Schedule 8, authorising the holder
to act as a member of the flight crew of a non-EASA aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, if
it is satisfied that the applicant is—
(a) a fit person to hold the licence; and
(b) qualified by having the knowledge, experience, competence, skill and physical and
mental fitness to act in the capacity to which the licence relates.

[Contact Approach]

Aviation is so full of bull**** its untrue. A cessna is a cessna, why does it matter where my licence is held. So much BS red tape in this industry.

[RVR800]

Yes a lot of these rules are:
VESTED INTEREST DRESSED UP AS SAFETY
we are victims of this political nonsense

[aviator2345]

If I transfer my license to an EASA state but fly in the UK , the CAA has said they are going to be issuing waivers for EASA license holders to fly UK registered aircraft after the transition period, but how will it work for exams etc. For example, say I needed a skills test as I didn't complete my 12 hrs per year, does this have to be done by an EASA examiner or can a UK examiner also conduct this test and sign it off?

[jjohn]

I did get a national licence which included an FI rating, however the IR was not included nor the aircraft I am currently type rated on. My guess is that since the aircraft I am rated on is an "EASA aircraft" and we're still in the transition period, the CAA cannot add it onto my national license - happy to be corrected though, as it is still a mystery after well over a year waiting to hear back from the CAA.
Silly question:last year I transfered my licence to Austria because of Brexit, but I have always intended to reapply for a UK national licence, I have looked many times in UK CAA website for the form used to apply for a national license, but I couldn't find it anywhere. Any suggestions as to where to find it?

[Whopity]

There is no specific form however; if you previously held a UK National licence SRG 1102 Application to Renew a UK Private / Professional Flight Crew Licence.
If you were converting to an EASA licence in the UK then SRG1104 has a tick box for issue of a National Licence; I ticked it and received a UK ATPL with everything on it for I believe £40.

[LastStandards]

If I transfer my license to an EASA state but fly in the UK , the CAA has said they are going to be issuing waivers for EASA license holders to fly UK registered aircraft after the transition period, but how will it work for exams etc. For example, say I needed a skills test as I didn't complete my 12 hrs per year, does this have to be done by an EASA examiner or can a UK examiner also conduct this test and sign it off?

One of the great unknowns at the moment, depending on the political negotiations going on at the moment. If, as seems likely, we complete transition by leaving all European agencies altogether then we will cease to be EASA Examiners so only those with EASA licences and Examiner authorisations will be able to carry out tests/endorse EASA licences, in much the same way that I can't do licensing action for FAA licences as a UK/EASA Examiner. A fair few UK Examiners have already transferred to other authorities as a result. Time will tell!

[topoverhaul]

Remember that the transfer of SOLI to another EASA State transfers your medical records. You will then be subject to the other State's AMS for any medical decisions which are required to be made by the AMS.

[Whopity]

But that will only relate to whether they issue you a medical certificate or not! No big deal.

[jjohn]

There is no specific form however; if you previously held a UK National licence SRG 1102 Application to Renew a UK Private / Professional Flight Crew Licence.
If you were converting to an EASA licence in the UK then SRG1104 has a tick box for issue of a National Licence; I ticked it and received a UK ATPL with everything on it for I believe £40.
I had a UK-issued licence that I transferred to Austria more than a year ago, but never had a National one, so I guess I'll have to try with the second option. Cheers!!

[deltahotel]

https://info.caa.co.uk/brexit/flight-examiners/

This is from the CAA’s Brexit microsite accessed from their main site and describes the outcomes for eaxaminers on both sides of the table if we leave EASA.