FO‘s expectations of a new Captain

[rotorcloud]

Would be interesting to see the other perspective as well.

[parabellum]

:)The better trained and more competent the FO the easier is the captains job! :)

[richardthethird]

I would want the captain to be capable of taking good photos of me at the controls so that I can keep my instagram followers up to date.

he should not get angry when I am texting my mates on the turnaround. It is not difficult to set up the FMC so he could be getting on with that rather than moaning at me.

The captain should also not complain when I twist and turn the buttons with vigour and looking cool. You can’t be a professional without being able to look the part.

oh and finally, while we are on the subject of moaning, why do they always moan about not having my uniform on properly? It is too warm to do up my jacket and I am definitely not taking my sunnies off, even inside.

if they want me to be professional, they should start being professional too. The number of captains I have seen plonk in the aeroplane at about 1000ft in with a heavy landing, when on a long runway you should be aiming to touch down a bit smoother but a lot further into the runway. For passenger comfort. That’s what being a good pilot is all about.

kind regards,

Nigel
Age 19.5

[zero/zero]

If they’re expecting encyclopaedic knowledge of the OMB, there’s no reason why a good Captain shouldn’t brush up on the latest Love Island gossip in return.

Oh, and stop asking for how much fuel the FO would like to take if you’re just going to use the one that’s in your head anyway...

[bex88]

Caution, communication and an aware of ones limits with regards experience.

[Paddingtonbear]

he should not get angry when I am texting my mates on the turnaround. It is not difficult to set up the FMC so he could be getting on with that rather than moaning at me.

I tend to this (most of the time though, I'm looking at the blank screen of a switched off phone whilst pretending to "text my mates") when I can no longer bear to listen to the mind numbingly boring chat about their latest car/super dupa TV/audio device/pension/mountain bike/woman/kids private school fees/eldests charge to be the best doctor on the planet/house extension/expanding property empire etc etc etc etc

[Contact Approach]

I would want the captain to be capable of taking good photos of me at the controls so that I can keep my instagram followers up to date.

he should not get angry when I am texting my mates on the turnaround. It is not difficult to set up the FMC so he could be getting on with that rather than moaning at me.

The captain should also not complain when I twist and turn the buttons with vigour and looking cool. You can’t be a professional without being able to look the part.

oh and finally, while we are on the subject of moaning, why do they always moan about not having my uniform on properly? It is too warm to do up my jacket and I am definitely not taking my sunnies off, even inside.

if they want me to be professional, they should start being professional too. The number of captains I have seen plonk in the aeroplane at about 1000ft in with a heavy landing, when on a long runway you should be aiming to touch down a bit smoother but a lot further into the runway. For passenger comfort. That’s what being a good pilot is all about.

kind regards,

Nigel
Age 19.5



Hahahaha! Brilliant.

I tend to this (most of the time though, I'm looking at the blank screen of a switched off phone whilst pretending to "text my mates") when I can no longer bear to listen to the mind numbingly boring chat about their latest car/super dupa TV/audio device/pension/mountain bike/woman/kids private school fees/eldests charge to be the best doctor on the planet/house extension/expanding property empire etc etc etc etc

Touche!

[donpizmeov]

I have always wondered how the term sexual adviser is shortened to FO?

[pilotpete123]

Oh, and stop asking for how much fuel the FO would like to take if you’re just going to use the one that’s in your head anyway...
How about:

Capt: "This is the MINIMUM amount of fuel I think we should take, do you think we should be taking any extra on top of that?"

At the end of the day, the captain isn't going to get airborne with less fuel than they want (quite right!) so how about giving the FO the lower limit and letting them work up if they want (And if you're willing)?

[Chesty Morgan]

Oh, and stop asking for how much fuel the FO would like to take if you’re just going to use the one that’s in your head anyway...
Unless the FO can justify the amount he wants then I will take the one in my head...

[richardthethird]

That also boils my pi$$. When it’s my sector and I want to take plog fuel (because that is most efficient, innit?) and the captain says he wants to take more! He had his turn at deciding the fuel load on the previous sector, this time it’s my aeroplane. I paid £129k to be sat here so I’m bloody well going to make some decisions. You don’t need anymore than plog because that has enough fuel to divert. Only a doddery old git would need to take extra fuel because he can’t make the right decision in an instant.

i just got my third stripe, so I have exactly the same qualifications that the captain has, therefore I’m just as good as he is. Probably better, to be honest. I went integrated.

kind regards,

Laurence
Age 21.

[maxpeck]

Don't turn into the captains who respond in this post.

[Globally Challenged]

I’m close to upgrade so have not yet flown with another FO - but am I the only other FO surprised by the attitude of some of the replies here. It would be hugely disappointing to find this sort of attitude to be widespread.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

It would be hugely disappointing if anyone took the thread seriously.

Old captains buy the first 2 rounds and flirt with the ugly one. New captains are a right troublesome bunch in this regard....

[richardthethird]

It would be hugely disappointing if anyone took the thread seriously.

Old captains buy the first 2 rounds and flirt with the ugly one. New captains are a right troublesome bunch in this regard....


Now we get to the real nitty gritty! Buying rounds... Definitely a treat to be relished, as if it happens, you can relax in the knowledge that your company is actually quite tolerable! If you don’t get bought a drink, you need to take a long, hard look at yourself (and ideally, the job adverts in the back of flight international)

[Ennie]

Some funny replies....
As a TC and former FO who flew with many a skipper in my 9 years as an FO in different airlines, it’s my view that FO’s should expect a new CP to be thorough, not flaunt the rules and be able to run the show as he or she has been trained with the understanding and support of the FO....it’s not a competition! I often sit and watch senior fo’s raising eyebrows and tutting whilst a new CP is getting to grips with their new role. All I can say is, “we’ll see how you find it when it’s your turn” because there’s slightly more to it than just moving three feet left, and believe me, some of the fo’s whom I thought would make it..... didn’t. Tread carefully, it’s not a rite of passage.

[BluSdUp]

Will never think of taking my mobile phone from me and toss it out the window while taxiing out for take off!
( I was just checking some important stuff, you know.)
JonnyJonny
21 1/2
756,3hrs

[73qanda]

The Captains I like flying with understand that a two day growth is part of my identity and not an attempt to become a Hipster. They don’t get all awkes when I apply lip balm while staring at them in cruise and they totally understand the benefits of sending acars messages to base while in busy terminal airspace. If we get vectors off track and VNAV is sucking they remind me which one of those stupid old modes will work until ATC stop mucking us up. Basically, I like flying with the smart ones.
Andrew, 24

[Mach E Avelli]

Advice for both seats. Do not be a smart ar$e. Do not pre empt. Do be on time. And shave or grow a beard (ladies exempt from both). Sloppy appearance equals sloppy pilot.

A good Captain will let the know-it-all in the RHS dig a big hole, then bail him/her out. Never say “ I told you so”.

Let F/Os play with the FMS - they are better at that than you, BUT if their hands hover over the gear or flap levers, smack them. Just because Mummy and Daddy never smacked them doesn’t mean you shouldn’t.
But when it is the F/O’s sector, unless they are about to kill you, leave them to it. Nothing is worse than a line captain who turns every trip into a check ride.

[booze]

When i was an FO i was staring at some of the guys in the left thinking i am never gonna be like them! Lately some of my guys/gals in the right makes me wonder if i ever was like them...

[parabellum]

Ennie takes the cigar. The physical transition RHS to LHS is nothing more than a simulator exercise, but the mental transition I have seen to be a big 'gotcha'. Suddenly realising that all around you things are starting to go wrong and those present are looking at you to evaluate, allocate priorities, call for the appropriate check lists, nominate the correct place to land, allowing for any reduced performance and then to sort it all out can come as a big shock to some, the longer in the RHS the bigger the shock in my experience.

[VinRouge]

As an experienced captain, all I want to hear from the RHS is Gear Up, nice landing Captain and the fat bird is mine.....

[Emma Royds]

If we get vectors off track and VNAV is sucking they remind me which one of those stupid old modes will work until ATC stop mucking us up. Basically, I like flying with the smart ones.
Andrew, 24

Sounds like you fly the 737? :}

[Black Pudding]

If they’re expecting encyclopaedic knowledge of the OMB, there’s no reason why a good Captain shouldn’t brush up on the latest Love Island gossip in return.

Oh, and stop asking for how much fuel the FO would like to take if you’re just going to use the one that’s in your head anyway...


The Captains is responsible for the cost of the operation. The hardest thing I have to deal with is trying to convince the FO without pissing them off, that we really don't need to take more than flight plan fuel when he/she asks to take more for no apparent reason.

I give the FO the respect they deserve. All I ask is they turn up early, look smart with your jacket buttoned up, be prepared and understand the task in hand which is to get from A to B and back without any problems. If I think the destination is ok for them to fly it there, I offer them the outbound leg. I let them choose first what they want to eat, I'll eat whatever is left. I let them fly it and say nothing unless I absolutely have to. I remember my 8 years in the RHS. 3 years now in the LHS. You may think sitting in the LHS is easy with regards who you will fly with, it's not.

[73qanda]

All I ask is they turn up early
Why? I maximise my rest time and arrive at sign on time.
The Captains is responsible for the cost of the operation. The hardest thing I have to deal with is trying to convince the FO without pissing them off, that we really don't need to take more than flight plan fuel when he/she asks to take more for no apparent reason.Everyone assesses risk differently. If my f/o wants more gas than me I take it as long as it doesn’t prevent us getting the FL I want or push us over a landing weight I think is sensible for the runway at destination.Sounds like your F/o’s are more conservative than you. Such is life, just don’t cock it up or you’ll waste all your savings in one day :)

[Black Pudding]

Sounds like your F/o’s are more conservative than you.



Any possibility you could explain how you come to that assumption

If my f/o wants more gas than me I take it as long as it doesn’t prevent us getting the FL

If your FO wants to take an extra tonne for not apparent reason, you would take it ?

[zero/zero]

If your FO wants to take an extra tonne for not apparent reason, you would take it ?

Since part of the job of a Captain is to develop and teach the FOs, why not take it and use it as a learning point (with the caveats listed above)?

After landing look at the fuel and debrief. If he/she has more than the tonne remaining then congratulate them on managing their energy well and discuss whether if it was necessary to take the extra gas. If less, why was that? what could be done differently? Or was it a good decision to carry extra.

Depending on the sector and the tankering gain/loss, you may find the lessons identified may exceed the cost of the fuel and self-confidence. Just food for thought.

p.s. It’s not just trainers that can develop FOs

[Chesty Morgan]

So be wasteful as a learning point rather than explain why in the first place?

[zero/zero]

So be wasteful as a learning point rather than explain why in the first place?

So if the FO wants to start the decent 10nm earlier than you would have done, you presumably stop them and make them wait until your TOD? Or do you wait and then discuss later why they had to use V/S etc to shallow the decent later on.

Any fuel that you take above the OFP Fuel Req’d is only ever a best guess based on experience, but that doesn’t mean it’s an exact science... or that extra fuel would be listed as an OFP figure.

If you think you have the right answers all the time, you’re probably in the wrong job (not you specifically CM, just in general)

[Chesty Morgan]

So if the FO wants to start the decent 10nm earlier than you would have done, you presumably stop them and make them wait until your TOD? Or do you wait and then discuss later why they had to use V/S etc to shallow the decent later on.
My TOD or the correct, most efficient TOD? What difference does 10 miles make anyway?

Any fuel that you take above the OFP Fuel Req’d is only ever a best guess based on experience, but that doesn’t mean it’s an exact science... or that extra fuel would be listed as an OFP figure.

Yes indeed. What’s your point?

If you think you have the right answers all the time, you’re probably in the wrong job (not you specifically CM, just in general)
Yes, indeed.

[Black Pudding]

why not take it and use it as a learning point

That says a lot about lack of professionalism and responsibility towards your employer. What do you think your pilot managers would think if they knew you were irresponsible enough to carry extra fuel to use as a learning point. It's a business, not a flying club.

[zero/zero]

My TOD or the correct, most efficient TOD?

That’s exactly my point, none of this is an exact science so there isn’t necessarily a “correct, most efficient TOD”. You probably don’t know how much of the STAR you’ll fly, whether you’ll get a shortcut, track extension, winds are only a forecast, when you’ll need EAI etc etc etc

Anyhow, that’s my last input

[Chesty Morgan]

Even less reason to descend early!

[Mach E Avelli]

I have long been an advocate of complete role reversal, though regrettably in the antipodes it is vigorously opposed by the old guard. But smart ar$$es who hover over the gear and flap levers or engage in urinating contests need to be pulled in to line. Prompting and pre empting is not CRM, though certain F/Os and indeed some Captains believe it to be so.
Constructive input from FOs should be encouraged, but the FO should never forget whose signature is on the release, regardless of relative experience.
The issue of an 8000 hour F/O paired with a 3000 hour Captain was not the original question. The ‘new ‘ Captain could be a DEC with 25000 hours new to the airline. But as it has been raised I would be interested in why the 8000hour person is still a F/O in today’s market, unless in a legacy carrier?

[RexBanner]

...shave or grow a beard (ladies exempt from both). Sloppy appearance equals sloppy pilot.

Sorry but that’s complete tosh. What is this, 1952 or something? I’m sure if you usually had a full head of hair but came in one day sporting the Ed Norton American History X hairstyle eyebrows might be raised at that. So why is that shocking on the top of your head but go a couple of inches lower and that’s the ideal? I’ll give you a clue why, because it’s all b*ll*cks.

Same as what I’ve witnessed in a previous airline where a grotesquely overweight base captain has marched over the apron to an otherwise immaculately turned out FO who happened to have some five o clock shadow to administer a b*llocking for his “appearance”. One has a bit of five o clock shadow the other is sweating profusely with stomach bulging out, shirt around the navel has a button unfastened because it can barely take the strain, who looks worse? I know the answer. The best Captain (CRM and handling) I ever flew with regularly came to work unshaven, reckon I ever raised an eyebrow?

[NLP]

I like the different comments about the “Captains letting the FO dig holes so they can learn” and the Captains are running the show also when it’s the FO’s sector. This the case most of the time but I have to say there are some exceptions when Captains aren’t running anything. I’ve seen some pretty poor performances from Captains where they lost their being in command due to actions like: not going around on an unstable approach, trying to cross red stop bars when I shout stop and they continue (incl lining up runways), or planning to take minimum fuel to a place with heavy snow. Just saying it’s not only FO’s trying to kill Captains.

The ones I really like is when they ask me to say silly things to ATC. Only recently: “Can you tell tower we would appreciate the first available airborne opportunity?” No, I will not tell tower Captain, we all want to get airborne ASAP..

[GlenQuagmire]

I am so glad I have never flown in the airlines. You lot sound like you are right on the edge of killing each other! All this bull**** about buttoning up your jacket and when you shave and over managing the poor bloke flying the plane.

There are two pilots up front in case one dies. Redundancy, same reason why we have more than one engine. I expect to go to work, enjoy my day with whoever I am flying with, probably spend a week in a hotel somewhere, do a bit more flying, have a chat about life at some point, and generally find a way to finish batting through 25 years of flying. Why do people try to make this job difficult! Go to work, dont be a cock, go home. Its reaaly really simple.

[RexBanner]

NLP the badgering of and backchat to ATC is one of the things I really dislike about our current employer, there’s far too many skippers around who try to do their job for them. As an ex controller myself it really gets on my tits, I always pretend I haven’t heard them and basically make them make the transmission themselves. And we wonder why we get a bad reputation in places like Dublin for instance.

[73qanda]

If your FO wants to take an extra tonne for not apparent reason, you would take it ?
That would never happen in my outfit. If the F/O wanted an extra tonne there would be a discussion, you know, like two professionals would have, it would go something like this;
“ why the extra tonne?”
” We’ll, with the single runway Ops here we might burn an extra 200 on taxi and then that jet will effect us if we don’t get our level, the other thing I’m thinking of is the delays into XXX at this time of day, we will probably get 20 mins hold and that would leave us with the low fuel lights on, I think an extra tonne is sensible”
” yeah ok, are there any fronts we need to clear?
” Nup”
” Landing weight good?”
Yup”
”ok, an extra tonne sounds good, how’s the wife and kids?”.

So all of these posts assume a 200 hour cadet RHS flying with a legacy captain.
Bingo.
Most of my F/O’s had turbo prop commands for years and have between 3 and 15,000 hours.
I might feel differently if I operated with a different demographic.The reality is at my joint that we pretty much agree within a few hundred kg’s 99% of the time. The $58 to carry the extra tonne doesn’t bother me too much and happens rarely.

[NLP]

NLP the badgering of and backchat to ATC is one of the things I really dislike about our current employer, there’s far too many skippers around who try to do their job for them. As an ex controller myself it really gets on my tits, I always pretend I haven’t heard them and basically make them make the transmission themselves. And we wonder why we get a bad reputation in places like Dublin for instance.

Agreed Rex, luckily it’s a small minority who do it. And Dublin ATC is pretty poor ;)

[Black Pudding]

Should the FOs experience, knowledge and thoughts be ignored as is suggested in many posts here (the FO is gear flap operator but only when instructed, wear buttons done up and shave). Should the FO let the captain dig his own holes only to bail him out later? What should the FO do when there really is a good reason to take extra fuel but the captain insists minimum fuel? Should he refuse to operate? Are you going to smack the FOs hand when he can see the approach is becoming massively unstable as he suggests gear? Ignore his calls to go around when you’ve landed too deep on a contaminated wet runway?]

Yorkshire Pudding, hello from Black Pudding over the border in Manchester.

I think you're missing the point. No one is saying suggestions from a FO should be ignored. No one is saying ignore the FOs input on taking extra fuel. Ignore those post, they are trying to throw petrol in the fire on this thread. All that is being said is have a reason. If a FO told me he/she thought we should take extra fuel and gave me a good reason, I'll take as much fuel as needed. If he just wants extra fuel, just to have extra fuel, my CRM comes into play to try and convince him it's not really needed. This is sometimes the biggest task of the day to convince them without making them feel I don't care. I am paid to be responsible to the company and if anyone thinks it's ok to take extra fuel just for the sake taking it, then maybe there're not as professional as they think.

Even though I am a Line Trainer, part of my brief to the FO, safety pilot or trainee is that I can also make mistakes and don't be afraid to speak up and ask what am I doing. The FO is there to make sure I don't make an error and it works both ways. If I mess up, he/she has messed up by not preventing me. Works both ways. I also seek feedback from all colleagues who have been somewhere I have not yet been. I am always learning. I don't know everything. My FO/safety pilot is part of the team. I try to treat them with the respect they deserve and I let them fly as they wish as long as safety is not compromised, a go around is not needed and the company image is not brought into disrepute. I try my best to say nothing and let them fly the sector. I remember very well the number of times I flew when I was a FO and the Captain would keep chirping in "I think you're high" "You need to get down now" As a FO for 8 years, only had one go around because of wind shear and never been unstable, most times a nice CDA onto the G/S. I know what it's like to have a Captain who is nervous and keeps telling you how to fly. It's a pain and is something I try my best to refrain from doing now I am LHS. As mentioned earlier, you may think once you have changed seats from R to L it's easier, it's not. You also have to deal with all sorts in the RHS. Having to keep them on side (making sure I/we don't mess up) means sometimes you have to bite your lip and say nothing. Great thread.

[zero/zero]

Wise words Black Pudding :ok:

[switch_on_lofty]

Surprised at the "no hovering over lever" comments, seems like loss of pride more than anything. Often it's a helpful reminder. Also don't agree that the only reason there are 2 pilots is in case one dies, errors happen a lot more than death/incap. If that was intended as a joke I missed it.
I'd rather people spoke up than watched me dig a hole too deep! And in return I try to do the same.

[VinRouge]

No FO should assume command, but be willing to intervene when absolutely necessary due to ensure critical safety and be confident enough to advocate their point of view. My duty is to hear all inputs from the team, keep an open mind and praise where praise is due.

Peeps need to get away from "My Command, Your command"and "My leg, your leg" ,mentality. On my flightdeck - its OUR leg/task, but ultimately, as skipper, legal responsibility of my crew, pax, freight, aircraft and those I fly over is mine.

Before I ever intervene in the LHS, first question, is this flight safety critical, or is it rapidly deteriorating into a flight safety critical issue?

Second, is it economic? Will try and elicit info rather than "tell" the other seat, as no-one likes having their thought train pulled apart. This is where in depth knowledge of the operation is essential. Case in point, recent departure from mid-west airfield, transatlantic, squalls and plagues of frogs. I had been keeping a close eye on FR24 as well as the online departure board and it was obvious we would not get a clean breakaway with 30+ holding aircraft and about 20 delays stacked. FO wanted to take PLOG. Rather than telling them what to take, I carefully posed the scenario and let him come up with the answer. If done in the right way, the FO will appreciate your honesty and tutelage. He certainly did and asked for further D+G into other scenarios he was interested in. The bottom line for LH, PLOG is not necessarily cost efficient if you run the risk of diverting and dont have the duty to get into destination within a reasonable time frame of connections.

Ive operated with Co-captains before,I usually leave it to the first leg debrief, give them some humble pie but then firmly re-enforce my responsibilities, and theirs and respectfully request that in the name of professionalism, we need to ensure there is no doubt over the correct cockpit gradient. These people can rapidly turn a bad situation into a dangerous one, particularly when their egos out cash their ability and respect of the commander.

[Mach E Avelli]

NO one here has suggested that the F/O's lot in life is only to jerk the gear.
One of the problems I see in my current role in simulator work is a tendency for weaker pilots (some are Captains, others F/Os) to become overly-reliant on their support pilot to scrape through their checks.
Hence my comments about pre-emptive behaviour. It's nothing to do with ego - it's all about getting the person in the hot seat to step up to the plate. PM's role should be to stick to SOP, make standard callouts and do whatever non-handling duties the FCOM or Company designates. Obvious errors and omissions need to be brought to the attention of the other pilot. But when it becomes a pattern, something is amiss.
Interesting that some Captains would not allow their F/O to load more than computer fuel because presumably the computer is always right, or defy the FMS and start the descent a little early in order to feel more comfortable with the path, yet would turn a blind eye to breaches of Company uniform and grooming protocols (every company still has such a thing, do they not?)

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

if you did not manage to work your way up to Captaincy with that level of experience something is wrong with your outfit or you should perhaps question yourself why you are still on the RHS ?

In my current outfit 6,000 hours+ Is the absolute minimum to even be considered for command. And that’s mostly commercial jet time. In other legacy carriers 20 years in the RHS is perfectly normal. I think you stop counting hours by that point.

[Chesty Morgan]

Interesting that some Captains would not allow their F/O to load more than computer fuel because presumably the computer is always right, or defy the FMS and start the descent a little early in order to feel more comfortable with the path, yet would turn a blind eye to breaches of Company uniform and grooming protocols (every company still has such a thing, do they not?)
Oh come on is that really how we fly? To ensure the FO feels comfortable? Or with efficiency, discipline and accuracy?

If the FO is uncomfortable unless he descends 10 miles early then he shouldn’t be in the seat.

If the FO wans extra fuel he can have it...if he can justify carrying it. He can’t have it just because.

[73qanda]

I bought a new watch last week, it cost $800, if anyone wants I can upload some photos.

[Life on top]

Oh come on is that really how we fly? To ensure the FO feels comfortable? Or with efficiency, discipline and accuracy?

If the FO is uncomfortable unless he descends 10 miles early then he shouldn’t be in the seat.

If the FO wans extra fuel he can have it...if he can justify carrying it. He can’t have it just because.


Your points are valid, yet you seem like the worst kind of captain to pull out of the hat... You should maybe think a little about that. There are several ways to tell a guy the go to hell, but an elegant captain will make his FO look forward to the trip. You Sir, are not one of those...

[Mach E Avelli]

10 miles is about 75 seconds in time. If a FO needs a little time to keep up or get ahead of the game, a good Captain will allow that. As the FO gains confidence, a good Captain will encourage a decrease in such allowance, all in the name of efficiency. Later a good Captain will demonstrate that even 10 miles after top of descent can be salvaged. TOD is rarely a hard limit. ATC will often change it anyway.
A good Captain will never put his faith totally in the FMS and hopefully will encourage FOs to keep their mental arithmetic going (schools do still teach that, I hope...).
Similarly with fuel. A good Captain will encourage the FO to have a ballpark figure in mind even before looking at the dispatch papers. Ditto take-off weight - Emirates should by now know the value of this.

[tubby linton]

A good captain will encourage his first officer to question what the box is telling him by cross referencing the navaids.Unfortunately modern societies use of technology has led to a generation who trusts technology implicitly. I grew up in an analogue age and still use multiple sources to validate what the box is telling me.
Recently one of my FOs was caught out because of the way he had sequenced the box and hadn’t validated it against the ILS-DME or the VOR on the far end of the runway.The difference in track miles was twelve and it left us a bit high. An orbit sorted it out.

[OhNoCB]

I would expect a new captain to maintain SOPs and not start creating his own 'better' ones now that he/she is in the left seat ie. "I know its not SOP but this is far more efficient / this is the way XYZ do it".

Also I hope that they understand the difference between being a line captain and a training captain. I have seen new captains who seem to blur the difference and end up trying to fly the airplane through the FO just because the FO is not doing it the same way they would. This often leads to things going tits up because you end up either not knowing who's in control or you have a flight path that is a mixture between the captains and FOs, which normally means its not the correct one given other parameters.

[Chesty Morgan]

Your points are valid, yet you seem like the worst kind of captain to pull out of the hat... You should maybe think a little about that. There are several ways to tell a guy the go to hell, but an elegant captain will make his FO look forward to the trip. You Sir, are not one of those...
I still find it highly amusing how people think they can tell what someone is like as a captain from a few throw away lines on an internet forum.

Perhaps YOUR points would be valid if we communicated on the flight deck via PPRuNe. Now, back in your box.

[Chesty Morgan]

10 miles is about 75 seconds in time. If a FO needs a little time to keep up or get ahead of the game, a good Captain will allow that. As the FO gains confidence, a good Captain will encourage a decrease in such allowance, all in the name of efficiency. Later a good Captain will demonstrate that even 10 miles after top of descent can be salvaged. TOD is rarely a hard limit. ATC will often change it anyway.
A good Captain will never put his faith totally in the FMS and hopefully will encourage FOs to keep their mental arithmetic going (schools do still teach that, I hope...).
Similarly with fuel. A good Captain will encourage the FO to have a ballpark figure in mind even before looking at the dispatch papers. Ditto take-off weight - Emirates should by now know the value of this.








I haven’t said anything to the contrary.

[73qanda]

Let’s talk about my watch

[Chesty Morgan]

Can’t you just post a picture of it?

[BluSdUp]

It is a FO watch, it runs 15 min fast!

[Chesty Morgan]

I believe the vernacular is ‘LOL’.

:ok:

[Chesty Morgan]

Do I need another reason?

[BluSdUp]

It goes like this:
" Son , we are taking extra fuel , how much and why?"
Most are happy, if not all.
I take plog fuel ca 20% of the time.
I am not a glider pilot.
I have never diverted due to fuel and never will.
Some dingbat here will shortly call me , old , inefficient , but not bold.
I committed once in to Gatwick and landed with 1900kg. no drama, but a divert to STN would certainly have been.
SOP , policy and statistics are fine and dandy but Murphy has a tendency to book a seat when he see a chance to stack some Swiss Chees.
I did take plog fuel the day I got a Spit Flap on approach a few years ago. Stuck at 0.4 and 0.8, with 24 minutes of QRH and a rather odd attitude on approach.
Had fuel for another try, if needed and to alternate.
Nailed it on the first try!
We do LIDO and it is fantastically accurate ,but there is little margin for unforeseen delay runway change etc.
Pilotbrief was way off the mark at times, mostly fuel rich.

So if a FO wants plog fuel he better get it right, every time.

Regards
Cpt B

[conanthelibrarian]

Perfect example today out of LHR. FO Very experienced (8000hrs I reckon) said maybe we should take more fuel for the TS delays on departure. He suggests 1T.
I said good Idea, but I though about 0.5 T might be better. After several tech delays and the weather we get off.
But while we were waiting I told him that I wished I taken his 1T idea

[BluSdUp]

Conan
I rest my case.
I do a LOT of Dead Head at first class, and I have seen delay up to 55 minutes were crew had to get more fuel for different reasons.
( Remote de-ice. Slott change after startup. Updated flightplan with new winds or reroute with 200kg more fuel required.)

This summer with minimum Plog fuel is a good plan for a diversion.
Or pushing my luck, and I do not rely on luck.

As the SAS Purser said to the new Fueler in CPH when asked": Cpt, how much fuel do You want , Sir?"
" Well ; Son ,topp Her up"

The Cpt and Fo showed up ca 30 min later and was told by the Cabin Capt they were all good to go.
2 hrs later they pushed after some DE- fueling to max landing weight on the 2 hr sector.
Turns out the 737 takes ca 24 000kg of jet A1.

Off setting some crab pots!
You All Have a Good Day.
Cpt B

[coalencanth]

Well this thread has been a bit of an eye opener.

I don't class myself as the most experienced skipper out there, but with some of you I would question your airline hiring policies/HR and training department if they are managing to hire characters to the RHS that don't fit the company culture (and yes I'm aware that there are substantial variations in the role of FO even within UK companies never mind the rump EU). When I am on long haul duty I don't allow the mostly experienced FO's to act as 'co-captain' on their sector. I bleedin well expect it!! These are supposed to be, and invariably are, my easy day out. I've found most of our cadets to be top notch and very keen. Selfies, Instagram, Facetwit and that rot? Prepare for a lot of ribbing and mickey taking from yours truly in the cruise and downroute :E

[Vokes55]

Seeing as it's mentioned a lot in this thread, I often wonder if PLOG fuel obsessives are aware that if you take extra fuel and end up not needing it, the majority of it is still in the tank at the end of the flight.

Taking an extra tonne on my flight today would've added 78kg to the trip fuel. It's summer, it's busy, there are thunderstorms, it's hot and the APU is needed for longer, BA insist on blocking the runway at Gatwick every other day, the alternates are busy, the level on the flight plan may not be available. If an extra tonne costs the company £53 (per today's prices on today's flight), but almost certainly gets the aircraft to where its meant to go, how much does a diversion cost? Not accounting for the reduced stress of not finding yourself in a low fuel state.

A bad captain for me is one that insists on flight plan fuel unless there's an exceptionalreason to take more, just to tow the company line or for their own personal pride. "Summer" should be a reason to take enough to be comfortable.

Thread creep over.

[Chesty Morgan]

I don’t think anyone has advocated only taking flight plan fuel...

[Black Pudding]

Seeing as it's mentioned a lot in this thread, I often wonder if PLOG fuel obsessives are aware that if you take extra fuel and end up not needing it, the majority of it is still in the tank at the end of the flight.

Taking an extra tonne on my flight today would've added 78kg to the trip fuel. It's summer, it's busy, there are thunderstorms, it's hot and the APU is needed for longer, BA insist on blocking the runway at Gatwick every other day, the alternates are busy, the level on the flight plan may not be available. If an extra tonne costs the company £53 (per today's prices on today's flight), but almost certainly gets the aircraft to where its meant to go, how much does a diversion cost? Not accounting for the reduced stress of not finding yourself in a low fuel state.

A bad captain for me is one that insists on flight plan fuel unless there's an exceptionalreason to take more, just to tow the company line or for their own personal pride. "Summer" should be a reason to take enough to be comfortable.

Thread creep over.

Vokes55, I had the pleasure of operating last July 2017 out of LHR for a few weeks. I have to say I always took extra fuel for my return leg back into LHR even if it was COVOK. Not a lot, but enough for 3-4 loops around the hold. Needed it about 50% of the time. Most airports I fly to are nothing like LHR and when CAVOK, plog fuel is sufficient. If the weather is marginal, I am not afraid to take as much if not more than I think I need. My goal is land at destination and not divert. I agree with you.

[AirUK]

I could have taken plog fuel on every single flight I've ever done and not come unstuck once. Fuel is a decision based on mathematics not emotion .

It’s all about experience, not emotion - and maybe the following doesn’t apply to your operation, as if you’ve ever operated LH to N. America in the summer for example, you’d know that storms can be much worse than forecast, with ATC re-routes MILES (and I mean MILES!) in the wrong direction before being cleared for an arrival from a completely different direction, then there’s possible metering on the return plus more re-routes if there’s weather out there, the forecast winds can be inaccurate, there can be lots of vectoring at low level, runway changes (JFK!)...

I don’t claim to know and will never know it all, but I consider myself a fairly experienced SFO and if my skipper is not looking to take an extra half to one tonne on an average summer’s day heading westbound then I’d be piping up and suggesting otherwise, that’s my job. The skipper has overall responsibility for the flight however, whether it’s my sector or not, and If they still don’t want to take more than min fuel then I’d be happy that I’ve done my bit (unless there’s a mandatory safety reason to take more). Yes, we mighn’t need it, but even on a good day, in my experience, we usually end up needing it and I’d be watching that fuel like a hawk. Any diversion required for a splash and dash is then on their head. Luckily this scenario rarely happens in our airline - we’re all pretty experienced, respect one another as equally important parts of a professional team and we’re singing from the same hymn sheet from the get-go. Good recruitment, good training, good CRM, mutual respect, some experience of the routes being flown and a sense of humour and you’ve got the perfect recipe for a good trip/day out, whichever seat you’re sat in, whether the guy’s into watches, cars or plane spotting!

[Chesty Morgan]

I could have taken plog fuel on every single flight I've ever done and not come unstuck once. Fuel is a decision based on mathematics not emotion .
Get some time in then kid.

[Vokes55]

I could have taken plog fuel on every single flight I've ever done and not come unstuck once. Fuel is a decision based on mathematics not emotion .

So why didn't you then? The "mathematics" surely said it was possible every time.

Fuel is based on experience and common sense, not 'emotion'. PLOG fuel is a guide, not a target, and I'd be more interested to hear somebody justify why we should take PLOG fuel, than why we shouldn't.

[OhNoCB]

One answer to that, from a previous company was that they would far rather everyone take plog fuel (assuming no glaringly obvious reason to take more) on every flight, and suffer the occasional divert because things didn't work out, than have everyone taking extra just in case, which statistically isn't needed and have the extra burn.

Now I'm not suggesting that you just blindly follow what the company says, but at the end of the day, in theory, it's their rules and their choice how to play the game. If they would rather increase the risk of diverting that is up to them as long as it doesn't incur safety issues.

It's a bit like the argument of speeding up when running late to try to 'fix' the schedule. If the company would rather suffer poor time keeping and dissatisfied pax then that is their call.

Understand that I am not saying we take plog fuel when the destination is on limits and all alternates are iffy and likely to fill up with other diverts. That would be silly.

[Deano777]

I think the divert talk is just a misnomer, let's face it, if you're taking plog fuel the chances are the weather is fine. How many captains here would divert if you reached your alternate fuel rather than commit to the destination intended? Probably not that many. I've taken plog fuel for the last 18 months on the ejet (in good weather) and have never even come close to eating into my alternate fuel and that includes flying into most of the major airports in Europe, flying lower and includes 2 or more times round the hold. There's no need for extra if you know the first fuel check is going to throw up an extra 4-500kg, it's all about trust in what's presented and that's where experience play's it's part. Horses for courses but if that makes me a "bad captain" in Vokes55's eyes then cest la vie.

[Chesty Morgan]

It’s probably the contingency fuel.

[six-sixty]

I think the divert talk is just a misnomer, let's face it, if you're taking plog fuel the chances are the weather is fine. How many captains here would divert if you reached your alternate fuel rather than commit to the destination intended? Probably not that many. I've taken plog fuel for the last 18 months on the ejet (in good weather) and have never even come close to eating into my alternate fuel and that includes flying into most of the major airports in Europe, flying lower and includes 2 or more times round the hold. There's no need for extra if you know the first fuel check is going to throw up an extra 4-500kg, it's all about trust in what's presented and that's where experience play's it's part. Horses for courses but if that makes me a "bad captain" in Vokes55's eyes then cest la vie.

I think we work for the same company. You must fly it a lot more efficiently than me! Having flown both our types I'd be shocked to see +4-500kg up even on the turboprop from min plog fuel let alone the Embraer, which despite flown rigidly to SOPs very rarely gifted me with meaningful extra fuel. A function of different plog/route assumptions from different bases perhaps, but I've had a few shocks on a few routes so it's definitely not black and white and I consider every flight individually based on experience.

[Deano777]

Yep it must be a base variable. Took off this morning with plog fuel, first check was +390, entered a hold the other end and that check indicated +440. Anyway we digress.

[hunterboy]

How many minutes worth of fuel are people landing with typically? At LHR, it can be 40-45 mins worth frequently.

[hunterboy]

Nope, that is using LGW as an alternate with statistical contingency fuel that is burnt after engine start for whatever reason. Sometimes it is necessary to commit to destination (LHR) in the hold. I wouldn’t say frequently, but it isn’t a rare occasion on the 777. I frequently see remaining fuel figures of 4.0 in the tech log (on the 777) and have landed with similar on more than one occasion last year.
The point I’m trying to make is that different airlines have different fuel policies...comparing Taking PLOG fuel with Saudia is different to taking PLOG fuel with BA, for example. It would be more accurate to compare how many mins of fuel are remaining at shutdown.

[framer]

I plan to land with 1 hr 20 mins in tanks on a nice day in the 737-800.
A normal missed approach with vectors sees me doing the second shot with one hours fuel onboard. ( it uses 20 mins of fuel but takes 12 minutes). A flap non-normal would see me doing the high speed approach with low fuel lights on and approx 50 mins of fuel onboard.

[CaptainSouth]

Just as a matter of interest, for the next sector it will cost 572 kg to carry the extra 1000 kg of fuel. So it DOES matter whether you carry extra fuel because you feel like it. It is also why companies would rather get 1 diversion from 100 sectors with min op fuel, than no diversions with 100 flights carrying extra fuel.

[framer]

That is very interesting. I’ve never flown heavy jets so I didn’t realise how different it is. On the narrow bodies it’s more like 57kg than 570. In addition to the small cost we get more bang for our buck, a tonne gives us nearly half an hour, what would you get? Ten minutes?

[Chesty Morgan]

I've seen less drift flying through a winter jet steam.

Thread title - "FOs expectations of a new Captain."

Actual discussion - "I'm a Captain and this is how I decide what my fuel order is going to be."
Instead of being petulant why don’t you join in the discussion? After all you might learn something.

[hunterboy]

A tonne remaining at destination would give you 10 mins on the 777-200. Bear in mind that it costs you around 4% of the fuel in fuel burn to carry it per hour...essentially on a 12 hr flight back from Singapore, you will burn nearly half your extra fuel just carrying it.
Apologies for thread creep and teaching anyone to suck eggs.

[IBE8720]

Just as a matter of interest, for the next sector it will cost 572 kg to carry the extra 1000 kg of fuel. So it DOES matter whether you carry extra fuel because you feel like it. It is also why companies would rather get 1 diversion from 100 sectors with min op fuel, than no diversions with 100 flights carrying extra fuel.
CaptainSouth has nailed it. It is business with the intent of making money. 1 diversion would cost no where near as much as a week of pilots taking just 500kg of fuel per sector.
F/O's need to grow up and Captains need to show some leadership.

F/O is a Co-Pilot, not a Co-Captain. Input is expected, absolute acceptance of your way of doing things shouldn't be.
Most of the F/O's attitude towards fuel stems from Captains, so you only have yourselves to blame for our attitude at times.

I expect my Captain to show leadership, guidance that will help me develop as a pilot. Not to dump your personal sh!t and hatred of the company on me. Nor am I interested in your "tricks" and "techniques" for screwing the company.

[Black Pudding]

I expect my Captain to show leadership, guidance that will help me develop as a pilot. Not to dump your personal sh!t and hatred of the company on me. Nor am I interested in your "tricks" and "techniques" for screwing the company.

Best post I've read in a while and totally agree

[framer]

I can’t even imagine what a tip or technique for screwing the company could be.....can you give an example?

[Vessbot]

- Flying slow to pad your time/pay without regard to schedule

- Making sure you depart late every time to worsen the stats (no benefit to oneself, just screwing the company)

[Chesty Morgan]

Fly inefficiently; too high, too low, too fast, too slow.

Take extra fuel just ‘because’.

Purposefully exceed FTLs.

Leave late, leave too early.

Configure way before you need to.

Leave the APU on when it’s not needed.

Flog the engines.

How many more do you want?

[framer]

Flying slow to pad your time/pay without regard to schedule
Seen it once in the seven years I was an F/O
- Making sure you depart late every time to worsen the stats (no benefit to oneself, just screwing the company)
I’ve never seen it or heard of it happening.
Take extra fuel just ‘because’.
Never seen it.
Purposefully exceed FTLs.

Leave late, leave too early.
Never seen it.
Configure way before you need to.

Seen it scores ....hundreds of times but thought it was misjudgement, lack of skill.
Leave the APU on when it’s not needed.
Seen that quite a few times but I’ve always put it down to laziness/ ignorance.
Flog the engines.
Never seen it.
How many more do you want?
No more thanks. I can see we work in pilot groups that have different cultures and luckily for me I haven’t experienced yours.

[Vokes55]

Leave the APU on when it’s not needed.


I've experienced the opposite far more often, turning the APU off when it's needed, to save 30kg of fuel. I had a captain turn it off in Ibiza when it was 35 degrees outside. If it's not a comfortable temperature for myself or the cabin crew, it's staying on.

[richardthethird]

I've experienced the opposite far more often, turning the APU off when it's needed, to save 30kg of fuel. I had a captain turn it off in Ibiza when it was 35 degrees outside. If it's not a comfortable temperature for myself or the cabin crew, it's staying on.


Ahhhh, bless! Did you get a sweat on, princess?! That nasty captain!

Actually I quite agree - leave the bugger on.

[richardthethird]

Bit like single engine taxi with the remaining engine revving it’s balls off! Bravo!

[Chesty Morgan]

No more thanks. I can see we work in pilot groups that have different cultures and luckily for me I haven’t experienced yours.


Not sure how you work that out unless you’re assuming that this actually occurs.

It’s quite simple really - you know what you’re supposed to do to achieve an efficient, cost effective, operation so if you're aim was to be inefficient and expensive then you would do the opposite.

[FullWings]

For fuel, I normally ask the other pilot(s) what they think and take the biggest number. I feel if I don’t, I might as well say: “I value your input... just not very much."

At the end of the day, I’m not that concerned about the fuel on board if it’s safe and legal (and all the people I fly with are aware of the commercial implications), I'm much more interested in what happens when we start running out of it and that can happen irrespective of how much you took in the first place. When I got my command, I remember the manager handing me the four stripes advising me to put some extra on over the next few trips, even if I felt I didn’t need it, just to leave more thinking time until I bedded in.

To answer the OP, having done ~10,000hrs in the RHS, I would expect a new captain to lead the operation but utilise the skills and experience of those around them. There’s no shame, in fact quite the reverse, in asking others who may have better knowledge in a particular situation, e.g. the FO has 5,000hrs on type and the captain has 50. If they wish the aircraft to be operated in a particular way inside SOPs, then they should make this clear, not rely on mind-reading from the RHS. I would also expect them to be confident but not overly so and interact in an open way with all their colleagues both on and off the flight deck.

[45989]

<div style="text-align:left;">I plan to land with 1 hr 20 mins in tanks on a nice day in the 737-800.<br />A normal missed approach with vectors sees me doing the second shot with one hours fuel onboard. ( it uses 20 mins of fuel but takes 12 minutes). A flap non-normal would see me doing the high speed approach with low fuel lights on and approx 50 mins of fuel onboard.</div><br />Hmm.......<br />Low amber is 907kg in each main tank. if you don't use 2500kg /hr as a rule of thumb (inc alt, diversion etc. It might end at best with the cojo passing the brown trousers!

[framer]

<br />Hmm.......<br />Low amber is 907kg in each main tank. if you don't use 2500kg /hr as a rule of thumb (inc alt, diversion etc. It might end at best with the cojo passing the brown trousers!
Can you try again please, I don’t understand you.

[45989]

Can you try again please, I don’t understand you.
Simple rule of thumb,. covers most scenarios

[framer]

Ok. Still not quite sure what you’re trying to say. I use 2400kg/hr or 40kg/min (737-800) in most circumstances but obviously not all. Is that what you were angling at? I just want to make sure I’m not missing out on learning something.

[The Old Swedish]

I can’t even imagine what a tip or technique for screwing the company could be.....can you give an example?

Well.

I've flown in a few different outfits on narrow bodies ans TP's and seen some **** going on.

Taking extra fuel for NO reason, just for personal comfort. Then in cruise realizing that the fuel was way too much and unable to defeat that decision just burning the fuel (fast and low), instead of bringing it home (like someone mentioned before). EVEN when well ahead of sched. Then just to appeal the bean counters banging it in on a lower configuration and "save" 10kg.

Flying fast to get a free transport home for the cabin.

Flying slow for a higher allowance.

I remember a chief pilot who took extra only when there was a real reason to lift it. Then what ever was going on, he just "produced" some fuel wisely en-route. Fuel is an expensive resource and our friend. This is a business.

Back to topic.
Expectations from the other pilot; just an healthy CRM. And it starts at the briefing. But there no democracy in the end.

TOS

[Papa_Golf]

As an FO, I'd expect the new upgrade to be a competent operator and I would offer everything I have in order to ease his/her job.

[akindofmagic]

So what happens when you legally can't carry your hypothetical fuel? Does the chance of such probelms disappear because you are at Max LDG Weight?

In my particular company's operations it happens infrequently (but isn't unheard of). I ask operations if they want me to offload bags, pax or both to enable us to take the fuel we require. Alternatively, I tell them to plan me a tech-stop, so we can uplift the fuel that we require.

[Yaw String]

This thread tends to indicate what a hopeless bunch of despots we are,in the Left seat....
F/Os..please DONT be influenced..:sad:
lol...

[jagema]

I would just want him to know his side of the operation to the proficiency standards to which he has been trained. Expect them to not forget what it was to be an FO and establish good CRM with their crew especially when it comes to decision-making. But above all understand that if very new to the LHS they might make mistakes and that is acceptable so long as they're in the realm of safety and/or taken care of :)

[parabellum]

This thread tends to indicate what a hopeless bunch of despots we are,in the Left seat....
F/Os..please DONT be influenced..https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

On the same subject you have captains posting with just over a years experience in the LHS with captains posting who have more than thirty five years experience of the LHS, so you can expect anecdotal experiences and expectations right across the spectrum from one end to the other and a fair amount of disagreement. :)