Cross Wind Landing Technique.

[John_Reid]

Have a look at this. What amazes me, is the lack of technique, period. What were these people taught at flight school??? Surely they were taught some sort of technique, in kicking the aircraft straight. That is, to have the heading somewhere near the track of the aircraft. on touch down, with the into wind wing down, "slightly".get the into wind wing high, you're in trouble.. Is it the respective company policy, of no crossing of controls before touch down? Which draws me to wonder what these company's published cross wind limits are, or is it "max demonstrated" cross wind. If that is the case, then it is set well above the ability of some of these pilots. I weep with despair at the sight of some of this.. AF takes the biscuit for me. That poor aircraft!!

Before you attempt to flame me, I have many hours on 4 engined, heavy, swept winged aircraft. No I'm not perfect by a long shot but if was unable to, or wasn't allowed to do better I would give it up. Tin hat??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqCUcw0Vtc8

[CaptainProp]

You do realize its from a flight simulator game right??!! :confused: :ok:

CP

[Teevee]

You do realize its from a flight simulator game right??!! :confused: :ok:

CP
I was just about to say that's actually a pretty good landing for a kid who has never been to flight school in his life and probably never will!

[vilas]

These can't be real aircraft landings. Some are touching even outside the left edge. All of them are should have gone around cases. In 747, only on a wet runway it was recommended to touchdown with the crab. The aircraft would skid a little down the runway and straighten by itself.

[The Shovel]

After wasting 3min and 4 sec of my life.... Apart from the very obvious fact that you were watching a computer game, you main concern was crosswind technique? But not the Air France B747 that landed over an aircraft already lined up at the threshold?
This post will go down as one of the Top 5 most Embarrassing posts I have ever seen on PPrune.

[pineteam]

LOL! This is Gold. :D
The Shovel, your post cracked me up. XD

[Wizofoz]

Before you attempt to flame me, I have many hours on 4 engined, heavy, swept winged aircraft. No I'm not perfect by a long shot but if was unable to, or wasn't allowed to do better I would give it up. Tin hat??


All those hours don't seem to have helped your powers of observation...….

[John_Reid]

You do realize its from a flight simulator game right??!! :confused: :ok:

CP





Like this you mean? Same thing in'it apart from the 737 holding on the R/W.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnL4KYVtDE&list=PL83643DB5DA6D09FD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roS6oFjCDhc&t=90s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYiLaK5bIJo

[ACMS]

Yes mate that’s real but but what’s the point in your first post?
So the Sim programmer doesn’t know how to create a proper technique video!!

Admit you didn’t realize it was a FS2004 computer generated video and please delete this whole thread mate it’s a joke.

[Wizofoz]

Like this you mean? Same thing in'it apart from the 737 holding on the R/W.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnL4KYVtDE&list=PL83643DB5DA6D09FD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roS6oFjCDhc&t=90s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnL4KYVtDE&list=PL83643DB5DA6D09FD)

Did YOU ever do the HK "Checker-board" approach? Me neither, so I won't comment on anyone else having a bad day with one of the hardest procedures in commercial aviation.

[Capn Bloggs]

I've seen holes dug before, but John's got himself a whole fleet of D9s doing the job for him here. :eek:

[Foxdeux]

OP is a geriatric, he's got many hours on 4 engine swept wing aircraft.

[Doors to Automatic]

To be fair, most of those landings were reasonable. If you want to see poor technique look no further than this.......

https://youtu.be/4NdFZBCc7BE

Not to mention the loss of separation. What were the pilots and ATC thinking? Overtime at the tea and biscuit factory I fancy!!

[easymxp]

After wasting 3min and 4 sec of my life.... Apart from the very obvious fact that you were watching a computer game, you main concern was crosswind technique? But not the Air France B747 that landed over an aircraft already lined up at the threshold?
This post will go down as one of the Top 5 most Embarrassing posts I have ever seen on PPrune.

I think by far this is the most embarassing post I have ever seen in PPrune.

[pattern_is_full]

@John_Reid - on the serious side, it comes down the geometry of the specific aircraft type: length of wings relative to landing gear, additional "obstructions" such as below-wing engines, large airline flaps, etc. etc. And manufacturers' recommendations for each of their aircraft types.

When you get the type rating, you learn to do it "the Boeing way" or "the Airbus way" or "the Embraer way" for that aircraft. These days, that is most commonly (but not always) - crab until the flare, and de-crab with rudder while flaring.

Crosswind Landings (http://code7700.com/crosswind_landing.htm)

Some aircraft require weight-on-wheels for both wheels, or for the wheel that will touch down last in a slip to one side or the other, to activate the deceleration systems (auto-brake, spoilers, reverse thrust). And in some FBW aircraft, aileron control is intentionally limited at low radio altitudes, specifically to prevent a dangerously large bank at touchdown.

Now, that doesn't mean a given pilot can't botch the technique in a given landing, or get caught by a strong gust in the flare that raises a wing or leaves one heading for the grass.

In your post #8 videos, the famous Hamburg incident (video 3) was in winds 28/29 knots gusting to 47 knots, at 60° right of runway heading. Here's a report of what happened, which also quotes the technique recommended by Airbus in the A320 operating manual, and the Airbus limitation of aileron travel to 50% of "full" above 80 knots. Once the wind pushed a wing up, they had little authority to get things back to level.

Report: Lufthansa A320 at Hamburg on Mar 1st 2008, wing touches runway in cross wind landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=42826d3a)

In your video 2, could be a gust, or just overdeflection of the rudder, resulting in too much swing with a super-heavy (A380) aircraft with a lot of inertia - it goes past center and zigzags to get back on track.

Video 1, I can't analyze due to distance, but it appears the crew missed the turn to final at old Kai Tak (probably also due to stronger wind than expected) and had little time to get lined up to begin with, and may have also caught a change in the winds in the flare (hilly terrain in 3 quadrants, lot of wind changes in the last 1000 feet down.)

None of those are excuses. Given the conditions or lack of a stable approach, a go-around (as opposed to a slip) may have been the right "corrective action." But the technique of crab/de-crab is used 1000s of times a day - successfully, and appropriately.

[harrryw]

In fairness to the pilot of the Flight Simulator landing in the OP he was probably flying with a joystick...and no rudder pedals. Some joysticks do let you have a rudder axis with the rotation of it but this is a poor substitute for pedals.

Now John, could you send a video of you landing a 4 engined aircraft at the same airport with failure of the rudder on approach. If you survive could you tell us how you managed to yaw.

[RubberDogPoop]

I think by far this is the most embarassing post I have ever seen in PPrune.



Why?.................

[stilton]

It’s interesting


While crabbing on approach followed by pushing out the drift prior to touchdown with wings level or slight upwind wing down is the most used and recommended technique autoland systems often do it differently, inputting some wing down and opposite rudder well prior to the flare



While we’re on the subject I’d like to encourage the end of the expression ‘kick out the drift’ it’s a terrible description of what you should do, a smooth controlled push of the rudder to align the aircraft with the runway



There’s never a time you should be ‘kicking the rudder’ perhaps it’s just how some describe their input without meaning it literally but others may interpret it as a direction which may well lead to poor results

[ACMS]

Why’s it the most embarrassing post on Pprune?

Well mate if you have to ask that then you’ve just made the second most embarrassing post on Pprune....

[Wizofoz]

It’s interesting


While crabbing on approach followed by pushing out the drift prior to touchdown with wings level or slight upwind wing down is the most used and recommended technique autoland systems often do it differently, inputting some wing down and opposite rudder well prior to the flare




It is interesting but I think it simply comes down to the Autoland systems not having the capability to judge the crab-decrab method.

What is also inetersting is that it means, on some aircraft, the Auotland has limitations- for instance, the 777 Autoland side-slips, but is limited to 25kts crosswind, because of ground-strike concerns. Crab-decrab is recommended above 25kts and yields a max crosswind limit of 40kts.

[jonkster]

just make all the wheels castor. Never worry about crosswinds again :)https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1360x2000/us2626116_0_f14ff7ba1a54b628ad8634bed94c55da7a3d98b7.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1360x2000/us2504077_1_40960b64b10b2216c9a27ff849a558fb587eae90.png

[stilton]

We used to have a recommendation to not remove drift prior to touchdown on wet runways


This was to avoid undesirable downwind
travel after landing and of course there was less stress on the gear than on a dry runway



Anyone else seen this technique?

[Capn Bloggs]

just make all the wheels castor. Never worry about crosswinds again https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif
I believe the B-52 has that. Bit hard to de-crab and land wing-down in one of those, I suppose! :eek:

[Intruder]

We used to have a recommendation to not remove drift prior to touchdown on wet runways
This was to avoid undesirable downwind travel after landing and of course there was less stress on the gear than on a dry runway

Anyone else seen this technique?"Not remove drift" or "Not remove CORRECTION FOR drift"?!?
On many aircraft - including the 747 - you can readily land in a crab, with the velocity vector straight down the runway. You do NOT want to land with any drift across the runway.

[RubberDogPoop]

Why’s it the most embarrassing post on Pprune?

Well mate if you have to ask that then you’ve just made the second most embarrassing post on Pprune....

Presumably ACMS you're asking easymxp why he thought shovel's post (about the OP's post being "the most embarrassing post ever....) was more embarrassing than the original - as was I. Ya follow? (clue: read again from the top...)

[stilton]

"Not remove drift" or "Not remove CORRECTION FOR drift"?!?
On many aircraft - including the 747 - you can readily land in a crab, with the velocity vector straight down the runway. You do NOT want to land with any drift across the runway.


Not remove correction for drift, in other words land in a crab, as I said this was recommended on a wet runway

[Pugilistic Animus]

I think by far this is the most embarassing post I have ever seen in PPrune.


Remember Guvnor he went way under...life in prison

[easymxp]

Presumably ACMS you're asking easymxp why he thought shovel's post (about the OP's post being "the most embarrassing post ever....) was more embarrassing than the original - as was I. Ya follow? (clue: read again from the top...)

Obviously referring to shovel’s post only because for him it’s the top 5 most embarassing. For me it’s the most embarassing ever

Remember Guvnor he went way under...life in prison

But thanks to Pugilistic Animus discovered “The Guvnor” - I wasn’t in Pprune at that time - and...... The Guvnor wins as the most embarassing (unbeatable) ever

[PEI_3721]

For a professional view:-
‘Lateral Runway Excursions upon Landing’ Aero #20 Airbus.
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/4352.pdf

[Onceapilot]

Little doubt that the A380 was mishandled. I don't think that the big swing in the post TD bounce is gust induced, you can see that the aircraft goes where the pilot rudder inputs take it. Lucky to not be worse result. :hmm:

OAP

[Wizofoz]

Remember Guvnor he went way under...life in prison

Is he still banged up?

[Pugilistic Animus]

Is he still banged up?
One can only hope so