Fed Ex B727 Crashs in Florida

[Koja]

Friday July 26, 8:54 am Eastern Time
Reuters Company News
FedEx plane crash lands in Fla. 3 crew hurt

MIAMI, July 26 (Reuters) - The three crew members were injured when a FedEx (NYSE:FDX - News) cargo plane landed short of the runway at Tallahassee, Florida, on Friday, bursting into flames, a company spokesman said.

Greg Rossiter, a FedEx spokesman, said the Boeing 727-200 landed short of the runway on arrival from Memphis.

"The three-person crew is being treated at a local hospital for minor injuries," he said. "We're very thankful they managed to escape from the aircraft."

Rossiter added that the plane was destroyed by fire.

'I can't speculate about the cause," he said, adding that a FedEx safety team was on its way to Tallahassee.

Memphis, Tennessee-based FedEx Corp., one of the top express package carriers in the world, delivers about 3 million packages a day.

[Shore Guy]

July 26, 2002

NTSB LAUNCHES TEAM TO INVESTIGATE CRASH
OF FEDEX PLANE IN TALLAHASSEE

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The National Transportation Safety Board has launched a
Go Team to investigate the crash of a FedEx cargo plane in Tallahassee this
morning.

At approximately 5:45 a.m. today, a FedEx Boeing 727 (N497FE)
crashed on approach to the Tallahassee, Florida airport. It was completing
a flight from Memphis, Tennessee. There was a post-crash fire. The three
crewmembers aboard survived the crash but were injured.

Senior NTSB investigator Richard Rodriguez will lead the team as
Investigator-in-Charge. He is accompanied by 8 other NTSB investigators.
Parties to the investigation will be designated later today. Ted
Lopatkiewicz will be the press officer on scene.

Contact information for the team will be released when available.

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KTLH Local + 4 = GMT

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[crash gang]

A Fed Express Boeing 727 has crashed half mile short of the runway in Tallahassee Florida, the aircraft has burnt out, the 3 crew on board have escaped without serious injury ( thank God )

[ORAC]

AP: JULY 26, 10:13 ET
FedEx Cargo Jet Crashes in Florida

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — A FedEx Boeing 727 cargo jet crashed and burned short of the runway Friday at Tallahassee Airport. The three-member crew escaped serious injury, officials said.

The three-engine jet, FedEx Fight 1478 from Memphis, Tenn., landed a half mile short of the runway at 5:43 a.m., said Kathleen Bergen, a Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman at regional offices in Atlanta.

It wasn't immediately know why it didn't reach the runway.

"We can't speculate on the cause,'' said Jess Bunn, the FedEx spokesman at company headquarters in Memphis. "The National Transportation Safety Board and FedEx's own safety team will be investigating.''

Brooke Wilson, spokeswoman at Tallahassee Memorial Health Care hospital, said the three were in fair condition. They were being checked for broken bones; they did not suffer burns, she said.

A mass of metal could be seen on the runway about a half-mile from the terminal Friday morning. Television footage showed orange flames burning in the center of the wreckage at dawn.

David Pollard, the airport's operations superintendent, said the plane was under the control of air traffic controllers in Jacksonville at the time of the crash. The Tallahassee control tower does not begin normal operations until 6 a.m., he said.

Pollard said there was fog in the area at the time of the crash but he had no indication that the weather played a factor.

Officials with the city of Tallahassee, which owns the airport, said it would remain closed until the wreckage is cleared, possibly by Friday afternoon. At least 15 flights were expected to be affected. The airport is served by Delta Air Lines, US Airways, AirTran Airways and Northwest Airlines.

[Airbubba]

Here's a CNN page with a photo, it looks like the plane is burning on or near the airport property.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/07/26/fedex.crash.ap/index.html

FedEx has had a rash of accidents and incidents in recent years including some hull losses. Fortunately, there have been no fatalities or serious injuries.

[MidnightSpecial]

Flying the back side of the clock has to be a factor in this. Some people adapt better to a disrupted sleep cycle than others. My sympathies to the crew.

[Orca strait]

David Pollard, the airport's operations superintendent, said the plane was under the control of air traffic controllers in Jacksonville at the time of the crash.

So whom do you suppose the general public perceives as flying the aircraft?

[xaf2fe]

Here's the local paper with a photo.


http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/3740826.htm

[Airbubba]

>>"Our pilots must undergo recurrent training every six months, which is over and above what the FAA requires," Bunn said. <<

Well, actually, I think FedEx's authorization to do annual single visit training (SVT) was withdrawn by mutual consent after the earlier string of accidents. Good spin control though...

_________________________________________________

Crew of 3 survives crash of FedEx jet

Associated Press

July 27, 2002


TALLAHASSEE -- A FedEx Boeing 727 cargo jet crashed and burned short of the runway Friday at Tallahassee Regional Airport. The three crew members escaped with minor injuries, the company said.

They were taken to a local hospital and were reported to be in fair condition.

"They are in remarkably good shape," said Bill Behenna, a spokesman for the city, which owns the airport.

The three-engine jet, FedEx Flight 1478 from Memphis, landed a half-mile short of the runway at 5:43 a.m., said Kathleen Bergen, an FAA spokeswoman at regional offices in Atlanta.

National Transportation Safety Board investigators were on the scene.

"We can't speculate on the cause," said Jess Bunn, the FedEx spokesman at company headquarters in Memphis, Tenn.

Brooke Wilson, spokeswoman at Tallahassee Memorial Health Care, said the crew members were in fair condition. They were being checked for broken bones; they did not suffer burns, she said.

The company identified the crew as Capt. William Walsh, a veteran pilot who has flown with the cargo firm since 1992, First Officer William Frye and Second Officer David Mendez. Frye has been with FedEx since 1997, and Mendez joined the company in 2001. It wasn't clear whether Walsh was piloting the plane at the time of the crash.

"Our pilots must undergo recurrent training every six months, which is over and above what the FAA requires," Bunn said.

Wilson said the crew was declining to talk to reporters about how they got out of the plane.

The crash caused havoc with state politics, delaying qualifying paperwork from at least eight legislative candidates.

A mass of metal could be seen about a half-mile from the terminal several hours after the crash. Television footage showed orange flames burning in the center of the wreckage at dawn.

The airport was closed for about five hours, reopening at 10:35 a.m.

The plane was being monitored by regional air traffic controllers in Jacksonville when it crashed, said David Pollard, operations superintendent for the airport. The local control tower does not begin normal operations until 6 a.m.

There was fog in the area at the time of the crash, but there was no indication that weather was a factor, Pollard said.

The crash was the first for the cargo company since 1999, when one of the its MD-11s slid off the runway into the ocean upon landing at a FedEx hub in the Philippines, said company spokeswoman Sally Davenport. That crash is still under investigation.

FedEx has a fleet of 647 aircraft operating around the world, including 95 727s.

[TowerDog]

Wow, 647 aircraft flying around the world???

Does that include the fleet of Cessna Caravans operated by contractors?

[hobie]

its all here at this web link ....

http://www.fedex.com/us/about/express/facts.html?link=4

[Ignition Override]

Tower Dog. You exposed the truth. Those Caravan pilots earn a bit more than minimum wage, but the Mountain Air Cargo F-27 FOs' gross pay was probably no more, unless you include per diem (as corporations often do), last time I read about salaries in FAPA/Air Inc years ago.

They are not on the FEDEX seniority list.

I sure was glad to read that the 727 pilots were ok. Were they by chance on a non-precision approach, which can be hazardous?

[Lartington]

Sorry to hear about the crash. I hope the crew are ok. Just as a query, how do Fedex handle the multitude of insurance claims for the cargo and many legal documents on board the aircraft. I sent some very important legal documents by Fedex that were routed
to Tallahasee via Memphis the day before the crash. I would think it would be a nightmare sorting out the various claims.

[Airbubba]

>>Just as a query, how do Fedex handle the multitude of insurance claims for the cargo and many legal documents on board the aircraft. I sent some very important legal documents by Fedex that were routed to Tallahasee via Memphis the day before the crash. I would think it would be a nightmare sorting out the various claims.<<

From FedEx's Terms and Conditions which you probably signed off on with the airbill when you sent the documents:

"The Warsaw Convention limits our liability for loss or delay of or damage to your shipment, unless you declare a higher value for carriage and pay the required fee as described below. The interpretation of the Warsaw Convention's liability limits may vary depending on the destination country. If the Warsaw Convention as amended by Montreal Protocol No. 4 applies to your shipment, FedEx's liability is limited to 17 Special Drawing Rights (SDRs) per kilo, unless you declare a higher value for carriage and pay the required fee. Otherwise, FedEx's liability is limited to US$9.07 per pound ($20.38 per kilo) unless you declare a higher value for carriage and pay the required fee. "

See:
http://www.fedex.com/us/services/termsandconditions/intlexpress.html

[Shore Guy]

Note: There is no "standard" instrument approach to runway 9 (there may be a GPS, but they are not included in my subscription). There is a CAT II ILS to runway 27. Runway is 8000', with VASI both 9 -27. Accident occured approximately 15 minutes before published sunrise.

KTLH 261053Z 00000KT 9SM FEW001 SCT015 SCT150 BKN250 22/22 A3013
RMK AO2 SLP200 VIS SW-NW 1/2 CB DSNT SE CB DSNT SW FU SCT015
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KTLH 260953Z 00000KT 8SM FEW001 SCT150 SCT250 22/22 A3011 RMK AO2
SLP195 T02220217=
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SLP192 T02220217 55003=

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FedEx crash inquiry goes on
NTSB says engines worked normally
By Rachel Sams
DEMOCRAT STAFF WRITER

Investigators worked under gathering clouds Saturday afternoon at Tallahassee Regional Airport, examining the singed remains of the
FedEx plane that crashed there early Friday morning.

Richard Rodriguez, senior investigator with the National Transportation Safety Board, outlined the flight's last moments at the
crash site Saturday. The three-man flight crew survived the crash.

The crew made a visual approach to Runway 9 - the airport's east-west runway - from the west, Rodriguez said. The plane clipped
trees on its way down and skidded to a halt about 1,000 feet from the end of the runway. Tree limbs and hunks of metal of all sizes
marked the path of the plane across the charred grass. The aircraft turned about 180 degrees between the first impact and its final
stop, Rodriguez said.

The first impact mark was on a tree, about 70 feet high and 3,100 feet from the end of the runway, Rodriguez said. The plane first
hit the ground about 2,100 feet from the runway, he said. The first piece of wreckage - a small piece of the leading edge flap - is
about 200 feet from the first tree strike.
The plane's three engines appear to have been operating normally, he said. The aircraft's landing gear was down, meaning it was in
place to land.

An update on the crew wasn't available Saturday. The three men - identified by FedEx as Capt. William Walsh, first officer William
Frye and second officer David Mendez - were listed in fair condition at Tallahassee Memorial Hospital on Friday evening. Hospital
officials Saturday referred all questions about the three men to FedEx, where media officials couldn't be reached for comment.

Rodriguez said Saturday night that the NTSB had begun interviewing the flight crew but would not report on the crew interviews until
the agency had finished interviewing all three members. The agency plans to begin removing cargo from the plane today, he said.

The crew has been tested for drugs and alcohol, and toxicology screenings will be run, Rodriguez said.

Rodriguez said the crew's ability to escape was likely because they were conscious and had been trained on how to get out of a plane
in an emergency.
"There was not any significant damage that would necessarily create significant trauma to the crew" in the cockpit area that the men
occupied, he said.

Extensive fire

The NTSB has interviewed four FedEx ground employees in Tallahassee who witnessed all or part of the aircraft's approach, Rodriguez
said. The employees observed the crew members outside the aircraft, he said. One of the crew members gave documents of the hazardous
materials that were on board to firefighters, and when that took place, they withdrew from their attack on the fire, he said.

The first word of the crash came in a phone call to the Tallahassee Fire Department at 5:39 a.m. Friday saying that a plane had
crashed, according to Division Chief Steve Anderson. Firefighters were on the scene at 5:42 a.m., he said.

Firefighters used 1,600 gallons of foam and 48,000 gallons of water in fighting the fire, Rodriguez said. "That is a lot of
material," he said.

The NTSB takes the lead in investigating plane crashes - unless any indication of criminal activity surfaces. In such cases the FBI,
which also plays a role in investigating plane crashes, takes responsibility for the investigation. The NTSB does not determine the
probable cause of an crash at the scene; it only gathers facts, assisted by other parties.

Plane's pieces inspected

The question of what caused the crash will be addressed in a report by the agency, which Rodriguez said could be nine to 18 months
away. NTSB investigators expect to be at the site gathering evidence for four days to a week.

Fifteen to 20 people, including members of the FBI's evidence team, worked at the site Saturday identifying pieces of the plane. The
pieces were marked with numbered orange flags as they were found. "I think I got part of the landing gear," one of the workers
called out Saturday afternoon.

The full contents of the plane weren't yet known, but hazardous materials were among the plane's cargo, Rodriguez said. The plane
was carrying 60 pounds of detonating cords, 900 pounds of corrosive materials such as automobile batteries and a small amount of
radioactive medical supplies. Rodriguez said the dosage of radiation was not enough to be dangerous to investigators.

The plane's voice and data recorders were retrieved Friday "in excellent condition" and sent to Washington, D.C., for analysis,
Rodriguez said. Investigators will begin readouts of the contents Monday, he said.

The air traffic control tower in Tallahassee was not operating at that hour, so the plane was communicating with the Jacksonville
tower. The plane's last known radio communication was an acknowledgement of clearance from the Jacksonville tower to approach the
runway, Rodriguez said. The plane's crew acknowledged that the airport was in sight from about 20 miles out, he said.

The last time a FedEx plane was destroyed in a crash was in 1997, when an MD-11 crashed in Newark, N.J., officials said. There were
no fatalities in that crash, either; the five people on board received minor injuries.

The NTSB determined that pilot error was the cause of the Newark crash. The plane experienced a hard landing, bounced and the right
main landing gear collapsed on the second touchdown, according to the agency. A fire broke out after the plane came to a stop,
destroying the plane. The agency said the captain's desire to touch down early to ensure adequate stopping distance contributed to
the accident.



:(

[Airbubba]

>>The last time a FedEx plane was destroyed in a crash was in 1997, when an MD-11 crashed in Newark, N.J., officials said. <<

Several news stories have picked up this erroneous statement. In fact, N581FE, an MD-11 was destroyed in a runway overrun at Subic on October 17, 1999.

A pretty convincing picture of N581FE's hull loss may be found here:

http://www.baaa-acro.com/photos/MD11-FedEx-Olongapo.jpg

[Traffic]

Interested to see the crew's roster for the previous week.

Had all three been flying the same fixed roster?

How much of it was on the dusk till dawn patrol?

[MidnightSpecial]

Here's why it's good to be in Alpa. Comair pilots, our Alpa brethren, kept guard at the hospital room doors for the FedEx pilots and kept out the press and other unwanted people. They also kept the Feds away until representation could arrive.

God Bless Alpa.

[Shore Guy]

Some obvious errors in this piece, but here is the latest from the Tallahassee newspaper.....

Posted on Wed, Jul. 31, 2002



First officer was at controls
NTSB says no evidence of fire damage before crash
By Rachel Sams
DEMOCRAT STAFF WRITER

The National Transportation Safety Board knows who was flying the FedEx plane that crashed at Tallahassee Regional Airport last week. But it hasn't talked to him.

First officer William Frye was flying the plane, senior air-safety investigator Richard Rodriguez of the NTSB said Tuesday.

All three crew members survived the Boeing 727's crash. Frye has asked that Tallahassee Memorial Hospital release no information on his condition, hospital officials said. But the NTSB has not yet interviewed Frye, saying he is "medically unavailable" for interviews.

"It's not uncommon for the first officer to be involved in landing planes," said FedEx spokesman Jim McCluskey on Tuesday. "They are fully trained just like captains are."

Frye was hired by FedEx in 1997, McCluskey said. Frye has 1,982 flight hours with FedEx, all in the 727.

In order to be hired for FedEx, all pilots must have 1,500 flight hours, with 1,000 of those as pilot in command. Pilots also undergo two months of intensive ground and flight training, and undergo recurrent training every six months, the company said.

Capt. William Walsh, who was in fair condition at TMH on Tuesday, has been with FedEx since 1992. Walsh has 3,891 flight hours with the company, and 2,751 of those are in a 727, the company said.

Second officer David Mendez, who has been discharged from the hospital, has been with FedEx since September 2001. He has 345 flight hours with FedEx, all in a 727, according to the company.

FedEx has declined media requests to interview the crew members, citing the ongoing investigation.

Flight 1478, a Boeing 727-232, was en route to Tallahassee from FedEx's Memphis hub. The plane crashed about 5:45 a.m. Friday, shutting down the airport for several hours. Fire damaged much of the airplane and its cargo.

"There was no evidence of fire damage prior to impact," the NTSB's Rodriguez said Tuesday.

There had been some reports of fog that morning, but Rodriguez said several people the agency has interviewed who were on the ground at the airport said there was no fog in the area. A weather observer at the airport reported some light mist in the wooded area to the west of the airport, but not on the flight path, Rodriguez said. Weather conditions were a few scattered clouds at 100 feet, he said.

The NTSB has talked to four FedEx employees in Tallahassee who were on the ground and saw all or part of the aircraft's approach. The agency has also interviewed a few people who were at the airport's air traffic control tower. The crash happened about 15 minutes before the tower begins operations at 6 a.m. The aircraft's crew was in touch with air traffic controllers in Jacksonville, agency officials said.

The airplane was built in 1974, according to Federal Aviation Administration records. FedEx acquired it in 1990, company officials said. The plane had no prior accidents, according to the FAA.

The aircraft last had a routine maintenance check April 23, FedEx officials said. The check, done every 180 days, includes a visual inspection and checking of aircraft systems. A more extensive maintenance check, done every 910 days, last took place in May 2000, officials said.

The 727 "has been a very reliable, safe aircraft for us," said FedEx spokeswoman Sally Davenport. "The safety and airworthiness of our fleet is of the utmost importance to us. We make sure our fleet meets or exceeds the standards set by the FAA."

An 'outstanding safety record'

The 727 "is a very fast plane, so it's well-suited to FedEx," said David Esser, professor and associate chair of the aeronautical science department at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach. The model was known as the workhorse of the aviation industry in the 1960s, he said.

"Considering the number of years it's been in service, I think it has a pretty outstanding safety record," Esser said of the 727. Many air carriers are phasing out the 727 because the plane requires a three-person flight crew and has three engines, which makes it more expensive for an airline to operate and maintain, he said.

The last time a FedEx plane was destroyed in a crash was in 1997, when an MD-11 crashed in Newark, N.J., company officials said. The five people on board received minor injuries.

The NTSB determined pilot error was the cause of the Newark crash. The plane experienced a hard landing, bounced and the right main landing gear collapsed on the second touchdown, according to the agency. A fire broke out after the plane came to a stop, destroying the plane. The agency said the captain's desire to touch down early to ensure adequate stopping distance contributed to the accident.

A FedEx MD-11 airplane also crashed in 1999 at Subic Bay in the Philippines, but the plane was not destroyed, company officials said. That plane apparently overshot the runway. The crash is still under investigation by the NTSB.

[lomapaseo]

> A FedEx MD-11 airplane also crashed in 1999 at Subic Bay in the Philippines, but the plane was not destroyed, company officials said. That plane apparently overshot the runway. The crash is still under investigation by the NTSB.
<

I could have sworn that it looked just like an A310 stuck against that chain-link fence. I must have missed that engine in the tail

[Airbubba]

>>I could have sworn that it looked just like an A310 stuck against that chain-link fence. I must have missed that engine in the tail<<

Well, actually FedEx did go off the end with an A-310 in Manila in 1999. About the same time the A-310 was put back in service after repairs, another FedEx crew went off the end and into the water at Subic Bay with an MD-11.

[thx1138]

Anyone know if there is an accident report on the net for the MNL incident?

[jet_noseover]

Anyone know if there is an accident report on the net for the MNL incident?

Which one? One involving the Bus or the MD-11?

(Brief (very) on both: http://www.airdisaster.com/news/1099/18/news.shtml)

[newswatcher]

Midnightspecial,

Whilst I applaud the effort to keep the press from unwanted intrusion, I question the need to keep "...the FEDS away until representation could arrive".

If the crew are medically fit to assist with the investigation into the accident, then immediate access might well prevent recurrence. For example, if the cause was due to a problem with the airport approach equipment, then identification of this must surely be of the highest priority.

The crew can still refuse to answer a question that they feel might incriminate them, until "professional" help arrives, whilst permitting useful information to be gathered by the investigators.

[MidnightSpecial]

Newswatcher:

First, the crew were not medically fit to assist in the investigation. Due to their injuries they had to have been on powerful painkillers.

Second, if there was an equipment problem that can be checked from the ground or, since it was clear, a flight check aircraft can do the approach and analyze the signal from the air.

Third, you sound like an airplane virgin. Do you fly? Have you ever dealt with the F.A.A. or your British equivalent? Never trust the Feds. They occasionally lie. At an airline I used to fly at, a Fed wrote up a bunch of our pilots by LYING about what they said to him. They got investigated. It didn't matter to this Feds' superiors that he had already had his route check authorization revoked; they started screwing with our pilots anyways. They were only cleared when one had the Fed on tape trying to coerce them to hand over maintenance records with the threat of losing their certificates. It turned out that this Fed has been repeatedly transferred around the country because of certain problems he had in dealing with people. After many thousands of dollars my friends were cleared since they had, of course, done nothing wrong. However, unlike the criminal justice system, with the FAA you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

How is a pilot with injuries, in shock, in pain, going to know what to say to a Fed that won't implicate him?

Always wait for the attorneys. That is what they are paid for. It is money well spent because there are some bad Feds out there and they lie.

MS

[newswatcher]

Midnightspecial,

Thank you for your interesting response.

Your initial posting was short on detail, but you seemed to be making the suggestion that ALPA should be congratulated for denying the FAA access to the crew, until "representation could arrive". I did not wish to pick an argument with you, but felt that there were some circumstances where such "protectionism" could be detrimental.

In the UK, the police are not allowed to interview either a "suspect" or "victim", until they are deemed to be medically fit enough to participate in such a process, I had assumed that it was the same for interviews involving the FAA or AAIB(UK).

You will note that I said "If the crew are medically fit....", and I am more than happy to leave it to the local medical experts to decide this. It is interesting that you believe that the crew were on "powerful painkillers". Earlier reports had a Fedex spokesman saying they were being "..treated at a local hospital for minor injuries". In a later article they were described as in fair condition and "remarkably good shape". I tend to believe the latest AAI report which says that two crew did in fact receive serious injuries. Thankfully they have survived.

I am familiar with the procedures to check for the existence of an equipment problem, but they need to know what to look for in the first instance. My suggestion was just an example of several potential causes which I considered might not be discovered until the crew could be interviewed, the decoding of the various flight recorders taking some further time to complete.

Am I an airplane virgin? Sadly not a pilot, I am a regular and interested passenger, probably covering about 100K miles a year. As such, I put my faith in the infrastructure that exists to make each experience a safe and enjoyable one. I have never had to deal directly with either the FAA or AAIB, but have much respect for their position and professionalism.

I am sorry that you have had a bad experience with the FAA. Unfortunately there will always be exceptions who abuse the privilege of regulated enforcement, the most visible examples may be found in the conduct of a minority of the police! However, the process of investigation can only work if the majority support it.

You Americans have always made greater use of the "fifth amendment" than we have this side of the pond. By all means prevent someone from incriminating themselves, but don't do it in a way that makes it look as though the situation has deteriorated into an "us" and "them" confrontation.

[Prof2MDA]

In a major investigation the only difference between FAA and the other parties (company, pilots union, manufacturer, etc) is that FAA is automatically granted party status. FAA has no right to interview anybody -- only NTSB has that right, and they don't try to do so without the pilots having representation available.

As to the guarding of the pilots, that was nice of those guys, but not something necessarily unique to ALPA. At the other accidents (as FPA) we did what was required to ensure that nobody had access to the crews before representation was in place. ALPA does provide other help that is invaluable, but nothing that has been mentioned here and is very off-topic for this thread. I just didn't want people to have the impression that our crews were not being guarded on previous accidents.

[AA717driver]

Guarding the crew from anyone other than legal representation is a must. If you've ever been in a car accident, you may be prone to make statements that you would not wish to be on the record.

The FAA would arrive, pen in hand and use those statements against you in any investigation. There are no Miranda Rights where the FAA is concerned and I think they must get a bonus for every ticket they pull.

A friend recently taxied away from a hardstand and hit a fuel truck that had pulled up. The ground crew cleared him to taxi, both crewmembers did the required visual check prior to taxi and had received ATC clearance. The fuel truck pulled up to an aircraft with engines running and beacon light on to begin the fueling process.

The most interesting aspect is that the local police tried to gain access to the crew(before agents whisked them out of town on another flight) to interrogate them. I know this happens in other countries but had never heard of it in the U.S. This was a major metropolitan airport. Everyone wants a piece of the action.TC

[MidnightSpecial]

Newswatcher: It IS an us against them confrontation when dealing with the FAA. Whether you are a 727 crewmember in a crash or a weekend warrior in a Cessna 150 be careful about talking to the Feds.

They don't care about your career or your certificate. As I said earlier you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Unlike a pre-Mirandized felon anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Also what you say can be different from what the Fed remembers you saying. Guess who will be believed? Do you think the Feds care?

FAA attorneys don't spend time trying to be nice to pilots. They have a job to do and sometimes that can conflict with your ability to fly. You have this charming, yet naive, belief that Those In Charge know what is best and will only do good.

Go take flying lessons. Get your certificate. Fly for a few years. Deal with the bureaucrats who can determine your future. Then you will understand why the Comair pilots stood guard outside the hospital door for that FedEx crew.

I am speaking from 20 years flying experience. Never talk to the Feds without talking to your attorney first.

[Engineer]

MidnightSpecial
It is a case of Beware of Greeks bearing gifts
never trust any official because they have there own personal agenda and if you can assist them all the better. But your personal circumstances will not matter in the end.

Pretty sad but that the way of the world these days. Call me cynical but true

[B Sousa]

"If the crew are medically fit to assist with the investigation into the accident, then immediate access might well prevent recurrence. For example, if the cause was due to a problem with the airport approach equipment, then identification of this must surely be of the highest priority.

The crew can still refuse to answer a question that they feel might incriminate them, until "professional" help arrives, whilst permitting useful information to be gathered by the investigators."


Newswatcher
It certainly would be ideal for folks to just let out with everything they know. However the Buzzards on the Fence (Lawyers) are in the wings waiting for an honest and slightly incriminating statement. You pay for representation, you had better use it.
As the Duke said. "Life is Tough, but its Tougher if your Stupid."

[Shore Guy]

From today's Tallehassee Democrat:

NTSB investigators return to Washington


The National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the crash of FedEx Flight 1478 at Tallahassee Regional Airport, closed down its command post in Tallahassee on Thursday. Investigators, who have been on-site since shortly after the crash, have returned to Washington, said NTSB spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz. The agency still has not interviewed First Officer William Frye, who was flying the plane, Lopatkiewicz said, and does not expect to do so this week. Lopatkiewicz expected the NTSB would have more information about the crash, such as an analysis of the contents of the plane's voice and data recorders, sometime next week.

[lomapaseo]

The NTSB investigation is typically interested in accident prevention, not blame or liability issues. Their interviews are designed to identify issues supporting causal factors, and probable cause and to be used for recomendations for operator's, training, manufacturers, regulators etc.

The degree of cooperation by those being interviewed obviously will reflect on the quality of these recommendations and future prevention.

you reap what you will sow

['%MAC']

The NTSB may not be interested in assessing blame or neglect, but the FAA sure is. Anything that is said to the Safety Board is available to the FAA; retracting one’s statement may lead to perjury charges. Better to wait and be sure of what you’re saying, rather then say the first thing that comes to one’s mind and live in regret

The FAA is very happy to issue pilot certificates, it is job security for them. After issuing the new certificate they will spend the next four or five decades trying to get it back. Nope, it is much better to kindly deny their invitation to chat.

[lomapaseo]

> The FAA is very happy to issue pilot certificates, it is job security for them. After issuing the new certificate they will spend the next four or five decades trying to get it back. Nope, it is much better to kindly deny their invitation to chat.<

Well there are accident investigation folks and regulatory folks. The latter do not participate in the interview process unless invited. The regulatory folks are sure to be incouraged to dig deeper on their own, if the accident investigating folks got little cooperation.
BTDT

[Ignition Override]

What if the FAA had grounded you about five years ago, permanently (following the appeal process) for a minor medical glitch, for which other pilots were never grounded while THEY continued to fly under Parts 121 etc?

You would be very lucky if the NTSB looked at your case and decided to overrule the FAA's random and arbitrary decision. The NTSB overruled only two FAA denials in the last twenty years! Was the NTSB afraid to butt heads with the FAA, due to Washington DC politics?

Read about what two (former) FAA inspectors did to arbitrarily ground airshow pilot (former test pilot) Bob Hoover. Read about how an inspector discoverd a method to ground KIWI Airlines following the crash of Valuejet; see how a trainingform,without a check box for windshear training, can be described as a "falsified training record".

After becoming familiar with some negative characteristics of this out-of-control bureaucracy, maybe only then will the naiive Pprune members begin to comprehend what can suddenly happen to YOUR career in the US, under a so-called "peoples democracy". The egos of some of our bureaucrats might exceed that of Napoleon, Louis XIV, Hermann Goering or even THE Donald Trump.

[Ignition Override]

Someone here just installed some silly Microsoft product. It won't let me change the middle of a sentence withoot erasing the rest of the sentence or paragraph! Why change what works on a computer for the sake of change? Screw E-bay!

[Wino]

In FAA procedings the rules of evidence don't apply either. In other words Heresay is good enough.

Therefor what you say to the accident investigator, whether or not the FAA was actually in the room WILL come back to haunt you.

Cheers
Wino

[lomapaseo]

Wino, be careful, there's someone outside your window now, listening, writing notes.

[Shore Guy]

NTSB Advisory
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

August 7, 2002

UPDATE ON INVESTIGATION INTO THE CRASH OF
FEDEX FLIGHT 1478, TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA

The National Transportation Safety Board dispatched a Go Team to
investigate the crash of FedEx flight 1478, a Boeing 727-232 (N497FE). The
plane crashed on approach to Tallahassee Regional Airport at approximately
5:40 a.m., July 26, 2002, following a flight from Memphis, Tennessee. The
three crewmembers survived but the aircraft was destroyed by post-impact
fire. The following is a summary of factual information released by the
investigative team.

Air Traffic Control

Because the Tallahassee tower was not scheduled to open until 6:00
a.m., the FedEx crew was in contact with Jacksonville Center. The aircraft
was attempting a visual approach to Runway 09. The last communication from
the flight crew to air traffic control was a routine call that they had the
airport in sight.

Wreckage Path

The aircraft first impacted trees 3,650 feet short of the runway,
generally along the runway centerline. The tops of the trees were broken
about 50 feet above ground level. The plane descended through trees until
impacting the ground about 1,000 feet later. It slid an additional 1,100
feet - most of it in open field - and came to rest about 1,000 feet from the
runway facing in the opposite direction of travel (approximately 260
degrees). The plane struck construction vehicles that were parked on the
field during the night. Burn marks on the ground indicate a fire on the
plane for the last 1,000 feet or so of travel. The entire wreckage path was
on airport property.

Weather

The surface observation at 5:53 a.m. (about 10 minutes after the
crash) was wind calm, visibility 8 miles, few clouds at 100 feet, scattered
clouds at 15,000 feet and 25,000 feet, temperature and dew point 22 degrees
Celsius, altimeter 30.11. The observer stated that the "clouds at 100 feet"
were thin wisps near trees west of the airport, and there were no
obstructions to visibility in the approach zone.

Fire Fighting

When the airport fire fighting units arrived at the wreckage scene
at about 5:45, all three flight crewmembers were outside the aircraft and
ambulatory. At 5:48, one of the crewmembers gave the fire fighters a list
of hazardous materials that were on the plane. Fire fighting was slowed by
the presence of HAZMAT, but the fire was declared under control at 7:52 a.m.
and out at 9:40. Fire fighters reported that they expended about 1,000
pounds of purple K (a dry chemical agent for metal fires), 2,100 gallons of
foam, and 67,900 gallons of water.

Cargo

Among the cargo on board the plane were some hazardous materials
consisting of 60 pounds of detonating fuse (1.128 grams of actual
explosive), 900 pounds of corrosive materials (such as batteries), and an
amount of radioactive medical supplies. The medical supplies were removed
from the aircraft the next day and most of the other hazardous materials
were destroyed in the post-crash fire.

Engines

Engines 1 and 2 were Pratt and Whitney JT8D-15s, and engine 3 was a
JT8D-15A. All exhibited signs of rotational damage (indicative of operation
at impact) and none exhibited signs of uncontained engine failure, in-flight
fire, bird strike or pre-impact failure.

Flight Crew

The captain was hired by FedEx on August 6, 1992. He reported
approximately 14,000 flight hours, of which 860 were as Pilot in Command on
727s. The first officer was hired on October 29, 1997. Records indicate he
had 2,640 total flight hours, of which 525 were in the 727. The flight
engineer was hired on September 3, 2001. He reported approximately 2,600
total flying hours, including 345 in the 727.

The Captain and the Flight Engineer have been interviewed. Both
state that they cannot remember much about the accident itself. The Flight
Engineer reported that the initial descent was through layers of clouds, and
they were anticipating possible fog due to the temperature/dew point spread,
but that the airport was sighted by all three crewmen. The pilots briefed
the approach to Runway 27, but the First Officer, who was the flying pilot,
suggested that they use Runway 09 because it was straight in and the winds
were calm. The crews' statements indicate that the base leg was normal and
the PAPI (Precision Approach Path Indicator) was visible on final approach,
gear was down, and flaps set at 30 degrees. The Flight Engineer stated that
he saw no fog during the approach. The captain reported that all three
crewmembers exited through his sliding window. The First Officer has not
been interviewed due to his medical condition.

Flight Recorders

The flight data recorder was a Honeywell Solid State Universal
Flight Data Recorder containing about 60 parameters of information. The
cockpit voice recorder was a Fairchild A-100 tape recorder with
approximately 32 minutes of recording capacity. Both were recovered in
excellent condition.

Parties

Parties to the investigation are the Federal Aviation
Administration, FedEx Corporation, Boeing Commercial Aircraft, Pratt and
Whitney Engines, the Airline Pilots Association, the National Air Traffic
Controllers Association, and Tallahassee Regional Airport.

On-scene Close Out

The last members of the NTSB investigative team left Tallahassee on
August 1. Other than some aircraft system components taken by the Board for
possible future examination, the wreckage was released to the owner on that
day. The remainder of the investigation will be directed from Safety Board
headquarters in Washington.

- 30 -

NTSB Press Contact: Ted Lopatkiewicz
(202) 314-6100

[Wizard]

If the flight was coming in at 05.40 on a clear, virtually nil wind Summer's morning - is this is in daylight?

If so, apart from the FO who is acknowledged as the pilot at the time, who else had a look outside?

see this again from the official report mentioned in the posting above and as faxed by Boeing to all Boeing aircraft operators yesterday ........

"The captain was hired by FedEx on August 6, 1992. He reported approximately 14,000 flight hours, of which 860 were as Pilot in Command on 727s. The first officer was hired on October 29, 1997. Records indicate he had 2,640 total flight hours, of which 525 were in the 727. The flight engineer was hired on September 3, 2001. He reported approximately 2,600 total flying hours, including 345 in the 727."

[Kalium Chloride]

My calculator says sunrise at 06:51 on the date. Dunno how bright it would have been an hour before.

[Wino]

Sunrise at 5:51, not 6:51.

[GlueBall]

Altitude callouts?
Sink rate?
Radar Altimeter?
VASI?
Six eyeballs see nothing unusual?

...Hellooooo? :(

[Low-Pass]

Would landing into the sun have had an effect as it seems pretty close to sunrise?

On the other side of things, it's d@mn good that no-one was killed and a "Get Well Soon" to the F/O.

[Cumguzzler]

Having landed many times on 09 at TLH at the same time and conditions, I know how hard it is to keep the PAPIS in sight (low cloud layer, sun rise, PAPIS low setting, etc.) Come thinking about, traffic permiting, we preferd to land on 27, just for those reasons, in the early morning hours.

[Dagger Dirk]

Forgetting to Pilot-initiate the lighting until the last moment??

['%MAC']

No, Kalium Chloride is correct. Sunrise is at 06:50 local, Wino you’re forgetting that we are on daylight savings time. At 05:40 it is still dark outside, and airport lighting is required. If the PAPIs were illuminated it follows that so were the runway lights. Years ago a National B-727 landed short in Tampa Bay, don’t know what the probable cause was, but believe no fatalities.

[MidnightSpecial]

Perhaps you are both right but using different definitions.

Wino wrote that sunrise for Eastern Daylight time that day was 5:51 am. Perhaps that was the Mean time, the average for that time zone, or the true time for his longitude.

Kalium Chloride writes that 6:51 am was the correct time. Perhaps he meant the specific longitude of Tallahassee; then that was the True time for that place. Tallahassee is further west from where I live and it might not be light yet there. However, it is also on EDT according to the map I am looking at.

[ORAC]

Tallahassee, FL (Leon County)
N30° 23' 48" W084° 21' 01"

For Fri, Jul 26 2002 EDT (GMT-4)

Astro Twilight Start: 05:20
Naut Twilight Start: 05:54
Civil Twilight Start: 06:25
Sunrise: 06:52

Calculator (http://www.mindspring.com/~cavu/sunset.html)

[MidnightSpecial]

Great program. Where can I get it?

MS

[DownIn3Green]

0%-

That was 1978 and it was on approach to Pensacola, not Tampa.

If I recall, the National accident was a result of a highly unstablized non-precision approach, causing a landing short of the rwy in the bay. Three pax died.

[newswatcher]

Downin3green,

The NTSB report contained the following statements:

"The flightcrew's unprofessionally conducted nonprecision instrument approach, in that the captain and the crew failed to monitor the descent rate and altitude, and the first officer failed to provide the captain with required altitude and approach performance callouts. The captain and first officer did not check or utilize all instruments available for altitude awareness and, therefore, did not configure the aircraft properly and in a timely manner for the approach. The captain failed to comply with the company's GPWS flightcrew response procedures in a timely manner after the warning began. The flight engineer turned off the GPWS warning 9 seconds after it began without the captain' s knowledge or consent. Contributing to the accident was the radar controller's failure to provide advance notice of the start-descent point which accelerated the pace of the crew's cockpit activities after the passage of the final approach fix."

[Airbubba]

Plane crash inquiry focuses on red lights

A colorblind co-pilot's ability to see runway warnings is at issue in a July 2002 crash landing of a FedEx plane in Tallahassee.

By BILL ADAIR, Times Staff Writer
Published December 26, 2003

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating whether the crash of a FedEx plane in Tallahassee last year was caused by a colorblind co-pilot who may have had difficulty seeing red warning lights.

Investigators are exploring the possibility that co-pilot William Frye failed to see red lights beside the runway that indicated the Boeing 727 was dangerously low, according to NTSB documents.

The cargo plane crashed one-half mile short of the runway and exploded in a fireball. Frye and two other pilots were injured; all three remain on administrative leave, pending the outcome of the inquiry.

The crash wreaked havoc with state politics, delaying qualifying paperwork for at least eight legislative elections.

Investigators of the July 26, 2002, crash are trying to determine the cause. The pilots say the lights never gave a red warning. But other evidence indicates the lights were working.

Frye's colorblindness has added a wrinkle.

Federal rules require that pilots see colors well enough to distinguish between red and green, which are used in instrument panels and warning lights. Frye passed vision tests as a Navy pilot from 1981 through the mid 1990s, but failed a color test when he got his airline license in 1995 because of "a mild red-green defect." The Federal Aviation Administration gave him a waiver because of his "demonstrated ability" as a pilot.

After the Tallahassee crash, the NTSB had Frye's vision tested at Brooks Air Force Base in Texas. Doctors found he had a "severe" problem that could make it difficult to interpret red and white warning lights like the ones at the Tallahassee airport.

But William Walsh, captain of the FedEx flight, told the St. Petersburg Times this week the lights indicated they were making a safe descent. "Everything visual that we saw told us we were on glide path," he said.

Don Maciejewski, a Jacksonville aviation attorney representing the pilots, said Frye's vision problems do not affect his ability to see red and the crash was probably caused by malfunctioning warning lights.

The plane was "well below the glide path and they are not getting an indication," Maciejewski said. "That tells me something is wrong with the system."

"A black hole approach"

When Frye heard he was scheduled for the Tallahassee trip, he asked a supervisor if he was required to fly it.

He had just arrived at the cargo airline's Memphis hub and wondered if he could be assigned to a flight a few hours later. A FedEx duty officer told him that was permitted because he had chosen to fly under reserve status, which allowed the company to change his schedule at the last minute.

A FedEx spokesman declined to comment for this story because the crash is under investigation.

The plane departed Memphis at 4:24 a.m. on July 26 and climbed to 29,000 feet. Frye flew the plane while Walsh handled radio duties. Sitting directly behind them was flight engineer David Mendez, who kept track of the fuel and electrical and hydraulic systems.

As they approached the Tallahassee airport in the darkness at about 5:30 a.m., the pilots chose not to land on Runway 27 because of slight winds at the airport. That runway has an Instrument Landing System that would have guided them to the runway with a moving target on the cockpit instrument panel. By keeping the target lined up properly, Frye could have maintained the proper descent directly to the runway.

Instead, they decided to land from the opposite direction on Runway 9.

It has a more basic way of guiding pilots to make a safe descent, a system called a Precision Approach Path Indicator or PAPI. It has bright red and white lights angled to show pilots when they are too high or too low.

If all four PAPI lights are red, the plane is too low. If they are all white, the plane is too high. Pilots are supposed to adjust their descent so they see two red and two white, which indicates the proper angle.

The FedEx pilots faced an additional challenge: the early-morning darkness. As they arrived over the sparsely populated Florida Panhandle, there was not much light from the ground. Pilots call it a "black hole approach."

Al Dickinson, the head of the University of Southern California Aviation Safety Program, says black hole approaches can be challenging.

"There's no horizon, nothing to orient you."

"The airplane is on fire!'

"FedEx 1478, turning final, Runway 9," Walsh said on the radio to alert other pilots who might have been in the area.

About 4 miles from the airport, the plane descended too low, according to NTSB calculations. The pilots should have seen four red lights at that point.

At first, it appeared Frye saw the warning. He added a little power to the engines and told the other pilots, "I'm gonna have to stay just a little bit higher or I'm gonna lose the end of the runway."

But he did not pull up, according to the plane's data recorder. The plane kept descending.

The pilots should have seen four red lights practically shouting at them for nearly 40 seconds, according to the NTSB calculations. But they say they never saw those lights.

Walsh said all three pilots followed standard procedure and were looking out the window as the plane approached the Tallahassee airport. They each saw the PAPI, but never saw it all red.

"Believe me, I have flown a lot of PAPIs," Walsh said. "If I saw a white light and the next one was even pink to red, I would make a correction. We never saw that. We never saw any indication we were below glide path."

The cockpit tape indicates that when the plane was about 2 miles away, Walsh said, "I think it's starting to disappear in there a little bit, isn't it?" He was referring to a slight mist that was obscuring the runway and the lights. But four seconds later on the tape, he seemed satisfied they could see the runway.

"I think we'll be all right," he said.

Eight seconds later, the plane hit some trees and exploded into flames.

Walsh remembers the thumps and the cockpit lights going out.

"It was pitch black," he said.

He climbed out a window and called back to the other pilots.

"Get out! Get out! The airplane is on fire!"

Frye and Mendez did not respond, so he helped them escape.

Testing the pilot's eyes

Shortly after the crash, the NTSB explored the possibility the PAPI lights had malfunctioned. But tests indicated they had been working.

Maciejewski, the attorney for the pilots, said the NTSB tests were inadequate because they did not replicate the nighttime conditions of the flight. He says the PAPI lights might have malfunctioned because of "contamination" on the lenses or because they had been banged by an airport lawn mower.

It will be a month or two before the NTSB determines the probable cause of the crash, but the documents released provide considerable evidence that Frye's colorblindness was a factor.

Colorblindness affects about 8 percent of men but less than 1 percent of women. It is a condition in which the eye has difficulty distinguishing colors.

NTSB officials said they could not recall other airline crashes caused by colorblindness, but they pointed to a 1996 train collision in New Jersey that was blamed on the engineer's inability to see a red stop signal. That accident killed three people and injured 158.

Several tests indicated Frye had a "severe" color problem, the Air Force vision experts said in a letter to the NTSB. They said he had "red-green defect" that could make it difficult to distinguish PAPI warning lights.

They said the severity of his problem had been undetected for much of his Navy career because Frye had passed a color test called the Farnsworth Lantern that doctors now believe is flawed.

It appears the Federal Aviation Administration granted him a waiver because a doctor concluded from Frye's Navy experience that he had sufficient color vision.

FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said FAA doctors did their best with the information they had.

"The system is designed to prevent pilots who are medically unfit from flying planes," Brown said. "But there is also a responsibility with the pilot to understand what his own deficiencies are."

But Maciejewski, the attorney, says Frye has "has a blue-green color problem" that would not affect his ability to see red.

"Sometimes pilots do mess up," he said. "This ain't one of them."


http://www.sptimes.com/2003/12/26/news_pf/State/Plane_crash_inquiry_f.shtml

[MidnightSpecial]

That poor F.O. There goes his medical.

I find it interesting that the military color blindness test is now considered to be flawed. What about the other pilots who were given color blindness waivers? Do they get retested?

Bad bidding,

MS

[Ignition Override]

Yep. Have sympathy for all of them.:ouch:

[Huck]

Is it true that PAPI's have been banned in Europe? Current rumor in MEM....

[GlueBall]

Wasn't anybody including the altimeters in their final scan, and making callouts like: 200 feet.....100 feet ? At 100 feet (AGL) nothing but the runway threshold should be right in front of your face, not tree tops.

[BOING]

Somebody has some explaining to do here. Impact 2,000 feet short of the threshold does not count as a near miss. How come three pilots failed to note the visual picture? A threshold that is apparently moving up the windshield on short final is not good news. Clipping trees 70 feet high at 3,000 feet from the threshold indicates an approximately 1 degree approach path.

Fatigue? Wrong flap setting or approach speed? Airfield environment in low light conditions? Apparent change in PAPI colour due mist? Lack of visual approach proficiency?

Thank Heaven the 727 is such a tough machine. Engines under the wings would probably have made this a fire-ball.

[Wino]

It sounds like the runways was disappearing behind the trees, and they mistook that for FOG... Ouch...

Fatigue has to be a huge part of this, but I guarantee that is the ONE thing that won't be addressed.

Cheers
Wino

[Ignition Override]

Wino: You said it. The paper shufflers in Washington DC can't measure fatigue and the FAA relishes almost any chance they can to evade the topic by describing FAR "legalities". At least the NTSB finally had the nerve (b***s) to blame an accident primarily on fatigue [by standing up to the FAA] when the Connie Kalitta DC-8 cartwheeled years ago during the hazardous turn to final at NAS Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. This accident followed an all-night duty period which was preceded by a long daytime period when most of the crew had enjoyed little sleep, if any.

The duty periods were "legal". How have fatigue and the well-documented MD-11 control anomalies affected the investigation of the terrible FEDEX accident at Newark, if at all? How much pressure was exerted by MD/Boeing on FEDEX and the FAA to find fault only with the crew?:E