Easyjet Fracas

[ImageGear]

Why, oh why, are drunks still being allowed to board, cause mayhem and then having to be forcibly removed after injuring crew?

Easyjet Fracas (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/easyjet-passenger-pinned-ground-paris-12823095)

The system is just not working - whether the flight was delayed is irrelevant, violence on aircraft must not be tolerated.

IG

[Bangkokian]

Like the Air Asia slogan says, "Now everyone can fly."

They're not wrong, unfortunately!

[Mister Geezer]

Not all passengers who are disruptive on board, behave in the same manner on the ground prior to boarding.

More could be done to regulate the sale of alcohol in airside areas, yet there is a conflict of interest here. Alcohol is a significant revenue stream for airport operators and they are rarely the ones who have to manage the anti social behaviour, once it develops.

[WindSheer]

Try working on UK trains. OMG!
This is not an aviation issue, its society. But agree, control measures should be in place.

[2unlimited]

Having travelled a lot as a passenger with various different airlines, this is a problem I have seen with nearly all of them.

Cabin Crew have sales goals, bonus etc. , and keep pumping passengers with alcohol as much as they can. I have NEVER seen any CC say no to sales.

Observing the condition of the passengers, I am fairly confident in case of an emergency there would be complete mayhem and chaos because of the condition of these passengers that CC have been plying with alcohol during the flight.

It will as always in aviation take one major disaster and major loss of lives before aviation will learn, as always lessons are only learned when written in blood and loss of lives.

The tragedy will be that the ones who are not drinking will be the innocent victims of this.
An airport is a port of travel, not an alcohol SUPERMARKET or a NIGHTCLUB.

[Hotel Tango]

2unlimited, I take it your're a non-drinker? Don't forget that there is a actually a very large majority of people who drink in sensible moderation. For that reason I would never support a ban on alcohol at airports or on flights. I do however advocate a strict no-fly regulation for any passengers who are obviously plastered and extremely rowdy prior to boarding. There's also the question of how to enforce drinking limits once on board flights when there are many (from Hen or Stag parties) who begin to consume alcohol purchased at the airport Duty Free.

[2unlimited]

No i am not a non drinker, not at all.
I don’t mind having a drink on a flight either. But I honestly could not care less if there was no alcohol on the flights if this enhanced safety.

For me traveling by air is not an event, I have travelled for business more than 20 years before I got professionally involved in aviation.

The combination of Airport drinking and onboard drinking on some flights can be quite severe. Just a visit to some of
the lounges, £15-£20 drink as much as you like for 3 hours!!!
When I travel I always use lounges and see this very often.

One recent flight I was on I saw multiple couples in their
early 60’s, drinking Vodka/ Gin, until they was clearly seriously influenced, ending with them falling asleep.
I have plenty of experience with alcohol, and my general observation was that sure these people was not causing any drunken issues, not being disruptive, but in case of a potential emergency/ evacuation, they would potentially endanger other passengers life due to their condition.

When you travel with your own children, than these are things that come to your mind.

Just because the passengers are not disruptive, does not mean they can not endanger other people’s lives due to their condition due to drinking alcohol.

[Dairyground]

There's also the question of how to enforce drinking limits once on board flights when there are many (from Hen or Stag parties) who begin to consume alcohol purchased at the airport Duty Free.

One possibility would be to extend the US approach, where duty free purchases are delivered to, and collected from, the jetway. Why not defer collection to the baggage carousel at the destination airport?

[frankpgh]

Considering the number of flights daily - this is not a wide spread issue. I have seen US airlines refuse to serve passengers on board (even in first class) if they felt the person has had too much. I have also seen them limit drinks to "singles" when people have ordered more than one serving. Laws are already in place to deal with the few that can't control themselves. There is no need for more regulation - people need to act responsibly.

[4EvahLearning]

2unlimited, I take it your're a non-drinker? Don't forget that there is a actually a very large majority of people who drink in sensible moderation. For that reason I would never support a ban on alcohol at airports or on flights. I do however advocate a strict no-fly regulation for any passengers who are obviously plastered and extremely rowdy prior to boarding. There's also the question of how to enforce drinking limits once on board flights when there are many (from Hen or Stag parties) who begin to consume alcohol purchased at the airport Duty Free.

given the longest flight isn't even 1 day long, then surely the only people who would have an issue going without alcohol for such a short period of time are alcoholics.

[ZFT]

given the longest flight isn't even 1 day long, then surely the only people who would have an issue going without alcohol for such a short period of time are alcoholics.
NO......... . ..................I'm one of the 60s referred to a few posts above and a few drinks helps one sleep whilst unruly children kick my damn seat!

[crewmeal]

Jet2 have the right answer even if our soft justice doesn't - Ban them for life.

[Piltdown Man]

Firstly, I hope the cabin crew members involved, especially the one who was attacked are OK. It’s not nice being caught up in one of these incidents.

So how do we stop these incidents from taking place or at least mitigate against some of their effects. Part of the problem is the social acceptability of being drunk and obnoxious. I’ve seen that the criminals who thump cabin crew have at least a short term history of being unpleasant, so we need to know this before they board. Another measure is is to spend more effort training cabin crew so they can avoid these situations. And then we have the punishment side affect the event. We are too lenient. Imprisonment, a very hefty fine and a total ban on flying forever plus compensation might be a reasonable minimum. Only a life changing outcome, matching the effect these events have on those who suffer them is appropriate.

Any other suggestions?

PM

[Cmon-PullUP]

Yep. A zero-tolerance regarding boarding people who have had alcohol. The rules are in place already, but they are not being enforced by most crew members.

It is very very easy, and fully legal. Deny boarding to anyone who have had alcohol or in any way behave like they had (The latter can be tested with a breathalyser if they behave drunk, but deny being so.The police is generally happy to help with these issues).

Then stop serving more than 1 or 2 units to any given pax onboard.

[lotus1]

I came back from Alicante on Friday used the lounge there .A Russian party had actually taken a litre of vodka of the drinks cabinet and was drinking it like water the staff just replaced the bottle.With regards to easyjet I have witnessed a number of incidents but as already mentioned the poor cabin staff have to reach targets cabin sells also gatwick does not help with certain bars doing promotions at 630 In the morning.

[wiggy]

Yep. A zero-tolerance regarding boarding people who have had alcohol. The rules are in place already, but they are not being enforced by most crew members.

I am not aware of any airline that has this “zero-tolerance regarding people boarding who had had alcohol” - can you explain further?

We do have a policy of zero tolerance to disruptive behaviour (possibly due to alcohol), and we will deny boarding to those who are not fit for travel for whatever reason..

The “ban it all” brigade need to get a sense of proportion....I reckon over the last twelve months I’ve been involved in the carriage of at a rough guess well over 10,000 passengers.

On those sectors I think I have been informed of <5 occasions where a single individual has appeared to have had too much to drink, and has been declined further service.....in all those instances the individual quietly complied when they realised they had crossed a line, we had no punch ups, no shouting, no police involvement and ultimately a couple of grovelling apologies to the cabin crew at the end of the sector. Do I think we need a total ban, errr, no.

If certain airlines are outliers in this and are attracting and encouraging bad behaviour then that is for them to sort out by way of company policy.....

[Piltdown Man]

Over the past 20 years I’ve moved close to one million people and I think I’ve had a problem with less than a half a dozen drunk/drugged up people. The cabin crew have had more but they dealt with. I can even remember the name of the last miscreant. I’ve had more problems with luggage issues and those who think it’s OK to stand up during a landing, so as wiggly says, a sense of proportion is required. The most challenging and more frequently occurring for me are medical emergencies, too many of which are own goals.

PM

[Chris2303]

In NZ the server must hold a sale of liquor licence and can be fined heavily if they serve alcohol to a drunk person.

Is that not the case in the UK?

[Cmon-PullUP]

I am not aware of any airline that has this “zero-tolerance regarding people boarding who had had alcohol” - can you explain further?

On those sectors I think I have been informed of <5 occasions where a single individual has appeared to have had too much to drink, and has been declined further service.....in all those instances the individual quietly complied when they realised they had crossed a line, we had no punch ups, no shouting, no police involvement and ultimately a couple of grovelling apologies to the cabin crew at the end of the sector. Do I think we need a total ban, errr, no.


I did not say any airline has that policy. I said it is legal to deny boarding to anyone who is drunk or intoxicated. I also said a lot of crew allow drunk people onboard by not enforcing the letters of the law, at this might be one of the reasons these incidents take place.
By denying drunk people to board, a lot of the problems will be avoided.

It is not "ban them all brigade" as you call it. It is common sense.

Oh, and because you haven't heard of more than 5 occasions on your flight, doesn't mean they don't happen. It often mean the crew don't bother to tell you, because they know you don't care. - Think about that a bit.

Also, - clearly we think differently here - my concern is more for all other pax onboard, and not the culprits who drink too much. I rather offload the drunk, and let the rest have a nice comfortable flight, than be political correct and show considerations to the wrong people.

[wiggy]

did not say any airline has that policy. I said it is legal to deny boarding to anyone who is drunk or intoxicated.

i don’t want to get thrown off for starting brawl, but I thought your words were:

“Yep. A zero-tolerance regarding boarding people who have had alcohol. The rules are in place already, but they are not being enforced by most crew members.

It is very very easy, and fully legal. Deny boarding to anyone who have had alcohol or in any way behave like they had ..”

My emphasis, I must admit drew the conclusion from that statement that there was a no alchohol at all tolerance where you worked, hence my question but anyhow thank you for the clarification.

As for "Oh, and because you haven't heard of more than 5 occasions on your flight, doesn't mean they don't happen. It often mean the crew don't bother to tell you, because they know you don't care. - Think about that a bit."

Yes I've thought about it...TBH I'm really not sure how you can make a comment like that unless you have a stereotypical view of all pilots, or you 've worked out exactly who I am, have flown with me, and have for some reason formed that opinion..which one is it?

Anyhow have a good Sunday.

[Igundwane]

Mandatory Breathalyser Test at the Gate, with a regulatory limit. If you are over that limit, its a no board, no fly policy. There will be cries of foul, abuse of " human rights " etc etc et al... But hey, until people learn, tough, treat them like kids. It's something that is only going to get more prevalent as time goes by.

Once on board, Single Shots only and limit the number per person.

Yes, purchase duty free etc, but have it delivered directly to the airplane in the hold, or alternatively, all orders paid for in your departing airport can be collected at your arrival airport. Electronic pay point systems can easily be connected worldwide. Just collect on the way out ...
​​

[Cmon-PullUP]

i don’t want to get thrown off for starting brawl, but I thought your words were:

“Yep. A zero-tolerance regarding boarding people who have had alcohol. The rules are in place already, but they are not being enforced by most crew members.

It is very very easy, and fully legal. Deny boarding to anyone who have had alcohol or in any way behave like they had ..”

My emphasis, I must admit drew the conclusion from that statement that there was a no alchohol at all tolerance where you worked, hence my question but anyhow thank you for the clarification.


My post was actually a reply to the question asked above by pillowman: So how do we stop these incidents from taking place or at least mitigate against some of their effects...........
Any other suggestions?



Don't be so emotional about it.

[wiggy]

Pilots ... sometimes they can't "win", one minute they don't care, the next minute they are so emotional....

Line drawn this end, ATB.

[Nightstop]

Lifetime bans only last for the duration of the miscreant’s current ID/Passport, after which they can’t be positvely identified as the same person who caused the trouble.

[Trav a la]

Just received this from Ryanair within the last few minutes.

Dear Customer,

Your flight to Spain – Booking reference NNNNNN

In order to prioritize the comfort and safety of all passengers, Ryanair will implement the following restrictions on your upcoming flight to Spain:

• Customers will not be allowed to carry alcohol on board and all cabin baggage will be searched at the boarding gates.

• Any alcohol purchased in airport shops or elsewhere must be packed carefully in a suitable item of cabin baggage, which will be tagged at the gate and then placed in the aircraft hold free of charge.

• If the bag is unsuitable for placing in the hold (e.g. plastic bag) then customers will be required to dispose of the alcohol in the bins provided.

• Boarding gates will be carefully monitored and customers showing any signs of anti-social behaviour or attempting to conceal alcohol will be denied travel without refund or compensation.

Thank you in advance for your co-operation with these procedures which we hope will allow you to enjoy your flight with us.


Yours sincerely,

[MaximumPete]

I wrote a dissertation for my MSc in 2000 about this subject, 'Air Rage - The Causes and the Cures". There are many publications and reports around on the internet and libraries.

NOTHING appears to have changed except the penalties for the various offences.

Aircraft and Crew are still being placed in danger thanks to this anti-social behaviour.

MP

[pax2908]

Flights to Spain, only ?
The so-called duty-free shops will soon have to provide appropriate containers for placing wine bottles "in the hold" (which one?) ... and even so, who will still buy an expensive bottle at the airport? (OK, perhaps not Ryanair passengers). This is kind of extreme of course.
As to the Easyjet incident, I believe it is true that their ground staff is perhaps not encouraged (time pressure) / not sufficient (in numbers) to effectively prevent this problem before PAX get on board.

Edited to add: that e-mail should also include a footnote with a list of what constitutes "anti-social behaviour".

[Herod]

It may have changed since my day, but it was often the case of the ground staff "kicking the can down the road" to the cabin crew. A moderately intoxicated person can stiffen up for the couple of minutes it takes to board, then the problem becomes one of crisis management.

If that Ryanair post (no.26) is genuine, full marks. However, I don't see searching all bags at the gate working with their tight schedules.

[HAMFAN73]

Even if those who have over-indulged are not so drunk as to cause a punch-up they are profoundly disruptive. Try the EasyJet flight from LGW-HAM of a Friday –almost without fail at least one stag party aboard, heading to the Reeperbahn. Swearing, shouting, abusive behaviour to CC. In four years of weekly commutes I have only once heard a PA (in fact from the Capt) threatening to offload them all unless they got a grip. Why not add a line to ticket T’s and C’s that says the airline or its agents can refuse to board/choose to offload anyone who is disruptive. Then incentivise the handling agency ground staff not to let them on in the first place? Airline has its money already and the word would soon get around. Still leaves the occasional solo drunk who appears sober at the gate…but it’s the mobs who need stopping. Only downside would it would empower some of the more pushy gate staff/handling agents even more.

[simmple]

Most of the time an experienced cabin crew member can tell if the customer will fall asleep or kick off when under the influence. If they think the latter throw them off simples.
not 100% scientific but in 20 plus years it’s worked for me!

[Noxegon]

Trav – which Spanish airport are you flying to?

[2unlimited]

Regarding drunk passengers, is it only the disruptive passengers we worry about? What about the ones who become mentally impaired, fall asleep, and would cause chaos in case of an Emergency or an Emergency evacuation?

This is a much broader issue than just handling passengers who become disruptive and violent when drinking, it's regarding safe operations.
I always believed the main job of the CC was to ensure safe operations in case of an emergency, serving drinks and meals and selling lottery tickets a secondary part of the job. The disruptive passengers are easy to spot, the ones who will make an emergency situation chaos, might not be so easy to spot, as they probably have fallen asleep during the early cruise.

[DingerX]

The situation may not have changed in twenty years, but at least the reported incidents are fairly clear: usually LoCos, not because they're dirt cheap, but because they specialize in holiday destinations (they also feature cocktails on demand instead of a dismal wrap and a half drink from the cart; usually the offenders are males; and usually outbound. The boys are heading out and the party starts once they're past security. The other group is those who have broken into their duty free spirits. I've seen a few people pour it on in the lounges, but generally, it's more efficient to do it with duty free or in the airport bars.

so yeah: common sense and knowing your destination.

[SARF]

I would have thought a bunch of semi comatose old piss heads, would be the perfect passengers for a sensible and calm evacuation

[crewmeal]

Why bother buying booze in the UK where at most airports abroad you can buy as much as you like on arrival and it's usually a lot cheaper.

[DaveReidUK]

Why bother buying booze in the UK where at most airports abroad you can buy as much as you like on arrival and it's usually a lot cheaper.

One obvious reason (as per previous posts) is so that you can drink it during the flight.

[GrahamO]

Out of interest, does anyone actually know how much of an issue the problem is with non-UK individuals ?

Germany, Eastern Europe and many other European countries have drinking problems to some extent but do people assume the problem is uniquely British in scale or is it just that we we base it upon UK news reports ?

[Trav a la]

Trav – which Spanish airport are you flying to?

AGP.

My son is flying out to the same airport a week later and has also now received the same message from Ryanair.

[meleagertoo]

It may have changed since my day, but it was often the case of the ground staff "kicking the can down the road" to the cabin crew. A moderately intoxicated person can stiffen up for the couple of minutes it takes to board, then the problem becomes one of crisis management.

Spot on, Herod. That was my experience too, no one wants a confrontation and the easiest wat to deal with these people is to pass them on down the line to become someone else's problem.

I do think the tone of this thread is some way off the mark with so much criticism of cabin crew when this incident started on the ramp before departure no one had been served drinks on board at this point.

In my time with EJ (london) cabi crew were pretty good at spotting potential problems and either flagging them up to me before deaprture which often resulted in offloads or refusing to serve them if they became inebriated en-route. I also knew several Captains who were more interested in getting home without delay and would decline to take more robust action on arrival which is of coursethe only way this problem will ever be put down. Prosecute every time and the message will get thrrough. Fortunately the courts seem to be on our side on this and have handed down some very satisfactory sentences.
The worst one I had was a bit like the Paris incident and the police had to use CS spray inside the aeroplane amongst pax, so violent was the miscreant. He got 6 months iirc.

By far the biggest problem was pax drinking their "duty free" on board surrepticiously, always spirits. The worst offenders were E Europeans who seem to monster whole bottles of Vodka as a natural part of a journey though any lads group (and some "ladies" groups too) has potential. The message did get through as EJ publicised some heavy UK prosecutions to both the UK and E European press and we did eventually see a reduction.

Crew need to be vigilant, formal complaints need to be made to airport authorities/bar staff or gate agents if pax are passed on in an unsuitable condition to fly and crew must always be prepared to offload even if it does mean missing a slot, or take the time to get police involved and press for a prosecution where appropriate. That requires the Capt and probably the No1 to know which buttons to push by being able to quote the ANO to the police (who won't know) explaining it is a criminal offence and asking for a prosecution. Cops like that because it hands them a result on a plate and the job gets done.

[Luke258]

In my previous airline the flight deck was not allowed to interfere in case of a disruptive pax. Especially on problematic flights we had many drunk and aggressive pax and often it was young girls in the cabin. How in the world can they prevent anything? The airline wants them to sell alcohol. None of the problematic pax respects the cabin crew. In fact some of them don't even respect the authority of any pilot. That's one of the biggest downsides of those cheap prices. Flying is like taking the metro nowadays and that's what you'll get.
Personally I'd ban alcohol on the flights or a maximum of one alcoholic drink (excluded the hard stuff) and any drunk passenger should be denied at the boarding gate latest. Someone that is drunk is a risk factor in any accident.

[bbrown1664]

In my mind there are four ways to reduce air rage.
1. Re-introduce smoking areas airside at every terminal. Has anyone bothered to do a study of the number of incidents from airports where they have airside smoking areas vs the ones that don't? Personally, as a smoker, I don't have any issues with waiting the 1-2 hours before departure and the 2-12 hours of the flight but then get quite anxious to have a smoke as soon as we land. If however the flight is delayed, even worse if it is a rolling delay, you just have no idea when you will get your next fix so you get wound up.

2. Ban children Ensure that there is sufficient overhead locker space to get one standard size bag per person above the row where they sit. Check bags as people board and enforce the cabin bag size policy. Too big, it goes in the hold. If the person cannot prove they can lift the bag over their head, it goes in the hold. If the person has 2-3 bags, it goes in the hold

3. Ensure the seats are wide enough to take three average size males from the country of operation (not tiny Japanese people) without any of them leaning into the aisle or getting squished in the middle and make sure that there is enough leg room for the same standard sized males to actually have their knees in front of themselves with the seat in front reclined. while we are at it, make sure that if the seat in front is reclined, there is still enough space for said males to read a book without being forced to recline their chair too.

4. Like others have said on this thread, I too like 2-3 pints before a flight as it helps me sleep and avoid the boredom associated with flying and also to ignore the noisy children that some parents seem unable to control.
Duty free could be banned but then the prices of your tickets would go up. The solution for those that seem unable to not open teir duty free bottles would be to extend the US system to not allow the bag to leave the shop with the passenger. All duty free alcohol should be boxed up and put in the hold for collection at the gate on arrival.

[ImageGear]

"Normal" AIR RAGE is a byproduct of frustration caused by delay, seat allocation, or overbooking or similar unacceptable practices and can occur without the consumption of alcohol.

In the case of alcohol, if consumed to excess, "RAGE" knows no boundaries, drunks will find a reason to fight in a bar, on a bus or train, or on a street corner. The same person who assaulted the crew on this flight is likely to have done something similar before, in a pub, on a train, etc, etc. Therefore any proposals to deny drinking to excess, either before or during flight should be welcomed, but will not directly address the issue. Identifying the characteristics of this type of passenger after committing a similar act of violence should result in banning from all aspects of flight. It is not easy, but it needs to be addressed.

IG

[double_barrel]

How about the 'big data' approach? Currently food/drink outlets airside do not scan boarding cards for each purchase. If they did, you would very quickly build up a set of data describing the behaviour of individuals. Allowing for people buying drinks for each other and buying cheap duty-fee alcohol, I reckon a machine learning algorithm could confidently flag individuals to receive a second look and a few words to evaluate their state as they board.

[am111]

I’ve always thought a drinking licence should be introduced. A form of photo ID that is issued at 18 (or other legal drinking age) that can be revoked by the authorities from those that are consistently drunk and disorderly.

[Ripton]

There's an a lot being written about the problem that excessive drinking in the airport and on the flight presents the cabin crew and other passengers. The problem seems to be more prevalent on short haul flights to holiday destinations which raises the question, not to deflect from the issue of air safety, of how many intoxicated passengers are getting off the plane and into the drivers seat of a hire car?

[Piltdown Man]

There is no real need to impose blanket bans. Current measures should be sufficient, if they are followed. Introducing additional ones will just mean more are not followed, especially the banning of drinks. Anybody familiar with youth culture will understand “Pre’s” and I cannot imagine people drinking water in the airline lounges.

Just use the tools we have and possibly give extra training but make damn sure the culprits pay the real price. When Joe Public loses his house, car, job and spends several years of his life in prison then others will think twice, even the idiots. Fortunately, these events are rare but the reporting of them appeals to our desire for sensationalism.

PM

[rationalfunctions]

How about the 'big data' approach? Currently food/drink outlets airside do not scan boarding cards for each purchase. If they did, you would very quickly build up a set of data describing the behaviour of individuals. Allowing for people buying drinks for each other and buying cheap duty-fee alcohol, I reckon a machine learning algorithm could confidently flag individuals to receive a second look and a few words to evaluate their state as they board.

Certainly some privacy concerns with passengers reluctant to share this data. Also it would be hard to detect who is knocking a few pints back vs buying a round. But digital tech / machine learning does enable some interesting concepts to identify potential drunk passengers for further evaluation - e.g. with crowd flow detection systems can you identify people who aren't walking through the airport in a particularly straight line / thermal imaging to detect hints from blood temperature? https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120904100137.htm