Airbus drivers query

[Its Maui]

Hello all,

Just doing a quick poll on how Airbus operators utilise ACP 1 & 2 for controlling VHF 1 & 2. I've seen ACP 1 dedicated to VHF 1 and ACP 2 for VHF 2. And I've seen ACP 1 & 2 controlling VHF 1 using "SEL" mode on ACP 2 and deselecting as required to use VHF 2. I have also seen the temporary use of "SEL" to select and transfer frequency and reverting back to non-"SEL" mode which is painful to watch.

What have fellow PPRuNers seen?

Disadvantage to non-use of "SEL" mode is that CM2 cannot see the standby frequency on ACP 1 in a normally seated position. Also the habit of CM1 when PF to become involved in selection of the R/T.

Disadvantage to use of "SEL" mode is...

And does anyone know what Airbus have to say on the matter?

Thanks,

Maui

[pineteam]

Hello,

In the company I work for, here's what the FOM says:

***RMP 1 is for VHF 1 only; Change VHF 1 frequency only on RMP 1.
***Monitor the emergency frequency 121.50 MHZ on VHF 2 at all times.
***VHF 3 is normally set to ACARS. If necessary, change VHF 3 frequency through RMP 2.

[Check Airman]

Each pilot uses his own rmp to tune whichever radio he needs. What's the point of stretching across the pedestal?

I think this will be a lot like the headset/speaker thread ☺️

[Its Maui]

My bad; replace ACP with RMP...

[vilas]

RMP 1 is for VHF 1 only; Change VHF 1 frequency only on RMP 1. It suerly is very strange. Possibly wrong translation. The first part of the sentence is correct, dedicated to VHF1 would be more correct. RMP basically is a tuner and it's very purpose is to prevent hands crossing all over. I have not seen any other Asian carrier do it. The position of RMPs is not very convenient in airbus because they don't expect you to cross over.

[pineteam]

Hello Vilas,

We do exactly as I wrote. Seems weird but that’s the way we do. I think that procedure came into place after our airline suffered a very serious lost of communication end of 2013. About 1 hour without communication in China and all equipment were working properly... Both crew were immediately offloaded after landing.
I never done it differently so for me that procedure is normal lol. Yes, in the right hand side you have to bend over a little bit but it’s not that bad. If the guy on the left is nice he would set and swap the frequency for you. I always do that except in busy environment.

How do you guys do it when it’s the CM2 who is PM? Do you use « Sel mode »and use RMP2 to change frequency on VHF1?
But what if for some reasons CM1 has the communication temporarily? I’m just curious as I never done it differently than mentioned above.

[Check Airman]

If the FO is PM, he'll just tune VHF1 or 2 on RMP2. If the CA is using the radio he'll tune VHF1 or 2 on RMP1.

The unwritten SOP is that you use your own panel. I guess you could use the offside RMP, but the other pilot would look at you and say "we don't do that on this fleet" 😊

The SEL light is on 99% of the time.

I understand the seriousness of the lost communication scenario that you mentioned, but SOP is VHF 2 on 121.5 unless it's needed for something else. That ought to prevent that sort of incident.

As an aside, I've noticed here in the US, Boeing crews hardly ever tune offside, while Airbus crews do it all the time. The last time I asked a Boeing crew about that, they gave me a funny look, as though the thought had never occurred to them. They eventually admitted that it "should be possible".

[vilas]

Pineteam
The cure for what happened in your airline was to train the crew about the correct use of the RMP. Instead some one has dragged the use of new equipment back into his comfort zone of his older equipment. I have trained 14 Asian carriers and all of them use it the standard way. Anyway as I always say you have to be loyal to the pay check.

[pineteam]

Vilas, I totally agree with you. I really like the company I work for but that’s one thing who grinds my gears: Everytime a cockpit crew screws up they punish everyone with new rules: Before we had no restrictions for the speed until a set of crew were descending d with a managed speed of 335kt; Suddenly speed trend goes inside VMO and both crews diconnected AP and pull up at the same time and injured 1 or 2 cabin crews. After that incident: Instead of teaching the crew that a slight overspeed is fine and that they should not have disconnected the AP, now we are not allowed to fly faster than 310kt/ .78 or .79 during cruise.
Few months ago a captain forgot his passport in a Flight to Pudong. Forgetting passport is a serious thing in China even for turn around flight. Then because of this, now captain is reponsible to check before every flight all the crews have their passport.. Lol. One Fo decided to do a raw data in marginal weather, ended with 20 degres of bank below 100 feet AAL and still continue the landing. Since that, we have now restrictions on raw data: Can not do if cloud base is too low and crosswind more than 15kt... That’s only 3 examples but yeah basically it’s always like this. One guy does a mistake and then everyone pays the price. To be honnest I don’t always follow those new insame rules. Passport should be individual responsability and for the speed, if Atc asked me 320 kt or I need to accelerate cause I’m too high I will do it. I will take responsability if I overspeed.
But still a very good company to work for IMHO. You can still fly raw data, noone cares unless you are unstabilized below 1000 feet and continue to land. And for me the raw data is the most fun part of flying so as long that they don’t take away that from me I won’t complain. xD

[vilas]

Pineteam
Even your neighbors both HK A/E do the standard way.
RMP is very simple to use. Kindergarten stuff.
SELECT: Which ever set you want to tune.
TUNE: Tune in the frequency.
TRANSFER: Transfer it to the required set.
Reselect the dedicated set to put the SEL light off.

[pineteam]

But what happened if CM2 has communication and then during flight he gives communication to the CM1 to take the ATIS. While CM1 has the communication, ATC gives him another frequency. CM1 Will use his own side RMP to tune the new frequency. Let's say he read back : 133.0 instead of 123.0 and ATC did not correct him. When he will set 133.0 he will erase the previous frequency and he won't have any communication since he misunderstood the new frequency. And now because CM2 was using his own side RMP, the crew can not confirm the frequency with the previous controller because they lost the previous frequency as it was overlapped by setting the new frequency from another RMP. I think that's one of the reasons we are doing it this way.:}


Even your neighbors both HK A/E do the standard way.


Haha! So you know who I work for! xD

Yes I wish I could do the standard way but like you said. I'm doing what I'm paid for. If I start doing it the standard way, some Fos will be nagging me about it and during a line check, the instructor would tap my fingers for sure! xD

[vilas]

I trained a batch of HKE in January.

[Uplinker]

I seem to remember that on Airbus FBW: by using the select function to tune the offside VHF; the previously active frequency of that box is lost, so going back to the previous frequency is not possible, (unless you write down every freq.).

Arguably there is less chance for cocking it up and temporarily losing comms if each RMP panel is just used for its onside radio - RMP 1 for VHF 1, RMP 2 for VHF 2 - as if the RMP was the actual radio. The association of the physical location of the RMP with the radio function is powerful and helps avoid changing or transmitting on the wrong radio.

[Goldenrivett]

on Airbus FBW: by using the select function to tune the offside VHF; the previously active frequency of that box is lost, so going back to the previous frequency is not possible,
Not correct. The previous frequency is displayed in the 2nd window of the RNP used to change that frequency. All that is required to go back to the previous frequency is to simply transfer the frequency using the same RNP again. However you have to remember who changed the frequency last.

[vilas]

Goldenrivette is correct. That's why I am not in favour of airlines developing procedures. Many times they are developed as a knee jerk reaction to an incident due to incomplete knowledge of the system.

[pineteam]

Well, Uplinker is right in a way: You will lose the previous active frequency if the other pilot use his RMP to change the frequency as I explained above. In other normal circumstances, yes you won’t.

[Goldenrivett]

You will lose the previous active frequency if the other pilot use his RMP to change the frequency as I explained above.
Not so. The previous frequency will still be displayed in the first pilot’s 2nd window. Only the active frequency will change on both RNPs (1st window).

[Uplinker]

I always felt that something like that ought to happen, but it never seemed to work for me. Probably finger trouble, so I did not use the system very often - just as easy to reach over.

On a slight thread creep, radios with a 0 - 9 keypad instead of turn knobs for entering the frequency, (such as those on the Dash 8 Q400) are brilliant. Very easy and super quick to select a new frequency.

[Denti]

On a slight thread creep, radios with a 0 - 9 keypad instead of turn knobs for entering the frequency, (such as those on the Dash 8 Q400) are brilliant. Very easy and super quick to select a new frequency.

Indeed, a true communication management unit that allows to enter frequencies via a keypad would be great. I was kinda puzzled when i switched to the bus that it didn't have that but rather the same old fashioned RMPs as we had on the 737 as well. If it offers more than one standby frequencies that would be even better.

[maggot]

Horrid RMP design.
fixed in modern airbus' fortunately

[Check Airman]

Having used the 0-9 keypad on another airplane, I prefer the tuning knobs. Airbus may have a better design interface though.

[pineteam]

Not so. The previous frequency will still be displayed in the first pilot’s 2nd window. Only the active frequency will change on both RNPs (1st window).

I did not express myself clearly. Let’s say the active frequency is 123.8 on VHF1 and CM1 has communication. If CM2 takes communication and changes frequency on RMP2 instead of RMP1, then 123.8 is lost.

[Goldenrivett]

If CM2 takes communication and changes frequency on RMP2 instead of RMP1, then 123.8 is lost.
123.8 would then be in the 2nd window of RMP2.

[Its Maui]

So it would appear that the non-use of SEL mode is due to fear of losing the last frequency which comes from a lack of understanding of how the RMPs work? Is that the only reason?

[pineteam]

123.8 would then be in the 2nd window of RMP2.


My bad Goldenrivett. I take it back. You are 100% right. I got confused as I never use the SEL mode for VHF1 and was trying to picture the scenario in my head. xD

[pineteam]

So it would appear that the non-use of SEL mode is due to fear of losing the last frequency which comes from a lack of understanding of how the RMPs work? Is that the only reason?

Well not only. There is less chance of messing up and confusion if you dedicate only one RMP to one VHF. But I'm sure with proper training and understanding, the use of the SEL mode is a great tool. I'm just not using it for VHF1 as we are not supposed to by our SOP.

[Denti]

In a previous company we were supposed to always switch back to the onsite VHF after using SEL mode on RMP 2 to set VHF 1. That did indeed create more confusion than not. Now i work in a company where the SOP is to have both RMPs on VHF 1 at all times and it is far less confusion. One just has to remember to switch back immediately after using VHF 2 or 3.

[Check Airman]

Keep the lights in a line. Can't mess up!

[Bola1]

The first part of the sentence is correct, making it more of VHF1 would be more accurate. RMP is basically a tuner and it's very purpose is to prevent hands crossing all over. I have not seen any other Asian carrier do it