QF 72

[captainrats]

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.news.com.au%2Ftravel%2Ftravel-updates%2Fincidents%2Fterror-on-flight-qf72-im-not-in-control-of-this-plane%2Fnews-story%2F1de13e8591fa845045f52ff4387cf98b&h=AT3JrzCFD0CjE7tcKCce-y5OChMykhAUdJP6MNMf4-3Og3T6YDIGzEu8qnlXYDuwiGaDoPDKJyi9n8wdpSZntMolPFuNVbdyck53rj 0eZqGXfSK14mTK6x36qWCvAm0A6CYsvKLz

[Capn Bloggs]

Good show. Well done, Bones and crew. :D

[tail wheel]

Don't link via Facebook.

Direct link: https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/terror-on-flight-qf72-im-not-in-control-of-this-plane/news-story/1de13e8591fa845045f52ff4387cf98b

[donpizmeov]

Shouldn't have let you have a rest Pete . Good work crew .

[EW73]

Of course, technical design of Airbus is that one never has direct control of the airplane. At best its either manual (with that silly sidestick), or through the autopilot(s), both electronic inputs, there is NO direct control available to the pilot.

[mrdeux]

I'd have thought that was the case with any of the later FBW aircraft, irrespective of the size of their joysticks.

[dr dre]

Great job by the crew, but I’m confused by this sentence in the article:

Using a military manoeuvre from his time in the navy, which was his best chance at recovering the aircraft if it pitched down again, a skilled Mr Sullivan successfully landed the plane at Learmonth airport.

I’ve read the ATSB report, they make no mention of any “military manoeuvre” performed that would have increased the chances of survival. From my understanding if the aircraft’s computer logic malfunctioned and suddenly caused it to have another pitch down event at that stage of flight there probably wasn’t anything the crew could’ve done to stop it. Are the press suggesting that if there had been wholly civilian trained pilots in the flight deck the chances of survival would have been decreased? I’ve seen that line of thinking being pushed a bit in the media lately, with regards to the Southwest Airlines uncontained engine failure incident especially.

[Dee Vee]

terror-on-flight-qf72-

must be a slow news day, news.com.au dragging up a 10 year old incident!

[Keg]

The Air Crash Investigation TV show just did an episode on the flight. That’s why it’s back in the news.

[rubbish_binny]

"...including simultaneous warnings the plane was in stall and overspeed at the same time — an impossibility..."

hmmmmm

[framer]

Hmmmmmm, I thought the same, maybe we should go back to flight school.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Using a military manoeuvre from his time in the navy, which was his best chance at recovering the aircraft if it pitched down again, a skilled Mr Sullivan successfully landed the plane at Learmonth airport.
So repeatedly pulling back on the stick until the aircraft responds is something only the the US Navy teaches?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

second officer
There's your problem right there. Did he touch something?

[donpizmeov]

Great job by the crew, but I’m confused by this sentence in the article:



I’ve read the ATSB report, they make no mention of any “military manoeuvre” performed that would have increased the chances of survival. From my understanding if the aircraft’s computer logic malfunctioned and suddenly caused it to have another pitch down event at that stage of flight there probably wasn’t anything the crew could’ve done to stop it. Are the press suggesting that if there had been wholly civilian trained pilots in the flight deck the chances of survival would have been decreased? I’ve seen that line of thinking being pushed a bit in the media lately, with regards to the Southwest Airlines uncontained engine failure incident especially.
Are you worried he didn't have enough 210 and wet season time?
Anyway his watch doesn't look nearly big enough to be a true ex knuckle head.

[captainrats]

Captain Sullivan saved an aircraft 300 souls and the corporate future of both Qantas and Airbus
His career was ended by PTSD as a direct result of this event.His treatment by Qantas is a stain on its history
https://www.thetvdb.com/series/mayday/episodes/6686077

[mrdeux]

His treatment by Qantas is a stain on its history.

Agreed.

[Street garbage]

Agreed.
..and just like Sonic in Japan....etc etc.

[blow.n.gasket]

Hope it all works out for you Kev.
Enjoyed working with you.
Who’s inherited the “ Sh!t Magnet “ title at Qantas now that you’ve moved on ?

[mrdeux]

..and just like Sonic in Japan....etc etc.
That was even more of a blot...

Kev had a near miss with that one. He'd flown the aircraft to Japan.

[LeadSled]

Captain Sullivan saved an aircraft 300 souls and the corporate future of both Qantas and Airbus
His career was ended by PTSB Aas a direct result of this event.His treatment by Qantas is a stain on its history
Captainrats,
PTSB A --?? I am not aware of this as other than an Irish bank.
I thought the Captain reached normal retirement with Qantas, that was the impression I got from an article published after he retired??
He certainly did a damned good job.
Tootle pip!!
PS: The B747-400 was prone to simultaneous high and low speed warnings, and a completely cocked up ADI speed display, but that was always a damaged AoA vane mechanical damage. The sights and sounds certainly added to the entertainment during takeoff and initial climb, where, in this case, it always became evident. Unlike Airbus, there was no effect on manual control. At least in the Boeing democracy, the pilot still has 51% of the votes.

[mrdeux]

Captainrats,
PTSB A --?? I am not aware of this as other than an Irish bank.
I thought the Captain reached normal retirement with Qantas, that was the impression I got from an article published after he retired??
He certainly did a damned good job.

PTSD. And no, he didn't reach normal retiring age, but did retire medically because of it.

The B747-400 was prone to simultaneous high and low speed warnings, and a completely cocked up ADI speed display, but that was always a damaged AoA vane mechanical damage. The sights and sounds certainly added to the entertainment during takeoff and initial climb, where, in this case, it always became evident.

The 767 would do it too, but I don't recall any damage being required...just some electronic stupidity.

Unlike Airbus, there was no effect on manual control. At least in the Boeing democracy, the pilot still has 51% of the votes.

Is that actually the case though? What do their FBW aircraft do?

And you can get 100% of the vote if you force an Airbus to direct law. It's just that's there's no individual switch to do that.

[LeadSled]

I assume, from that, that PTSD is a medical condition?? Are you referring to post traumatic stress disorder?
Tootle pip!!

[captainrats]

Apologies....typo....corrected
Yes: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

[wombat watcher]

Captain Sullivan saved an aircraft 300 souls and the corporate future of both Qantas and Airbus
His career was ended by PTSD as a direct result of this event.His treatment by Qantas is a stain on its history
https://www.thetvdb.com/series/mayday/episodes/6686077






captainrats and mr deux:
could you please enlighten us on how Captain Sullivan and Sonic were allegedly betrayed by Qf.

[Capt Fathom]

I would suggest that Qantas is no different to any of our large corporations here in Australia when it comes to staff.
They really don’t care.
The only thing that matters is their bonus. The rest is just just for show. They’d sell their own grandmother given the chance.

[captainrats]

Wombat Watcher
Surely that is a rhetorical question

[Street garbage]

Wombat Watcher,
Like most incidents at Qantas, they were guilty until proven innocent....and even then, the Company treated them like....crap is the nice word for it.
Sit down and have a beer with Sonic and let him tell what really went on, and how he was treated by Management.
Not all Captains who successfully manage an incident get to write books...

[Keg]

I’m still waiting for the book by the (then) 744 Captain who has the oxy bottle explosion and depressurisation into Manila ex HKG. I know he contributes semi regularly here on PPRUNE but suspect humility prevents him from going into print.

I’d read Kev’s book too if he wrote one. Still won’t go near De Crespigny’s work of semi fiction. ‘Inspired by true events’ I think is how they describe it in the movie world.

Im just saddened by the lack of recognition that Kev got from Qantas for handling what was a very complex and difficult situation. One that didn’t end when they got on the ground.

[megan]

could you please enlighten us on how Captain Sullivan and Sonic were allegedly betrayed by Qf Be very interested in the story as well. Very familiar with corporate barstardry. A thread I started previously,

https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/605841-just-punitive.html

[ruprecht]

I’d read Kev’s book too if he wrote one. Still won’t go near De Crespigny’s work of semi fiction.

Seconded...

[wombat watcher]

Wombat Watcher,
Like most incidents at Qantas, they were guilty until proven innocent....and even then, the Company treated them like....crap is the nice word for it.
Sit down and have a beer with Sonic and let him tell what really went on, and how he was treated by Management.
Not all Captains who successfully manage an incident get to write books...


is this the same JB, the hero of Virgin who was once CEO QF International?
is this the same Sonic who was personally contacted by JB soon after the incident, given certain advice on how to proceed, ignored it, tried to skip the country to avoid possible arrest after advice from the local Japan ALPA rep, was denied boarding at checkin at Osaka airport and subsequently had to be dipomatically extracted from the mess?
It surely must have been someone else.:=

[JPJP]

is this the same JB, the hero of Virgin who was once CEO QF International?
is this the same Sonic who was personally contacted by JB soon after the incident, given certain advice on how to proceed, ignored it, tried to skip the country to avoid possible arrest after advice from the local Japan ALPA rep, was denied boarding at checkin at Osaka airport and subsequently had to be dipomatically extracted from the mess?
It surely must have been someone else.:=

Interesting. I’m sure the full story would be even more of a head turner. I’d forgotten the incident and went looking for the report. It was translated into English by the Japanese government. The cover page of the report has a strange spelling mistake. Some may find it amusing given the difficulty that some native Japanese speakers have with the letter “r”.

I’ll leave the link to the report below, lest anyone accuse me of taking the piss :)

http://www.mlit.go.jp/jtsb/eng-air_report/VH-QPE.pdf

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/2000x1460/f14d61a4_7464_4d9f_8559_a50aadc0b872_da0abe2e930b39cc002125d eb1a24b373f2e7774.jpeg

[maggotdriver]

So repeatedly pulling back on the stick until the aircraft responds is something only the the US Navy teaches?
Actually, after initially pulling back on the stick to no avail, he released it. He realised he had lost control of the FBW, so he started to momentarily pull back on it until it responded to his input again. The reason being, if he had held it back fully and regained control everyone would have been subjected to 2.5 Gs when it started working again. He had the training and presence of mind to realise this and reduce substantially the impact that a sudden, full pitch up request would have had on anyone floating near the roof. Damn fine aviator in my opinion. I dips me lid to ya! Pretty good bloke too.

[Going Boeing]

"is this the same JB, the hero of Virgin who was once CEO QF International?"

Wombat, the International CEO who wanted to leave Sonic in a Japanese jail was LS, not JB.

[dr dre]

So repeatedly pulling back on the stick until the aircraft responds is something only the the US Navy teaches?

Actually, after initially pulling back on the stick to no avail, he released it. He realised he had lost control of the FBW, so he started to momentarily pull back on it until it responded to his input again. The reason being, if he had held it back fully and regained control everyone would have been subjected to 2.5 Gs when it started working again. He had the training and presence of mind to realise this and reduce substantially the impact that a sudden, full pitch up request would have had on anyone floating near the roof. Damn fine aviator in my opinion. I dips me lid to ya! Pretty good bloke too.


I'm pretty sure all pilots, regardless of background, have never been trained to perform immediate and full control displacement on any aircraft in response to an upset. Smooth and appropriate use of controls always. I think the airline's training of the crew on the Airbus had more relevance to the successful outcome of this situation than the Captain's prior background.

[wombat watcher]

LS didn’t join Qf until 2008, was Chief operating officer until 2012 then became CEO Qf Domestic.
he was never CEO International.
There was no such position in 2005. J B was EGM Qantas.

[captainrats]

Support Captain Kevin Sullivan....he bloody well deserves it
https://www.change.org/p/australian-federal-goverment-and-qantas-airways-acknowledgment-and-recognition-due-for-retired-qantas-captain-kevin-sullivan?recruiter=886604495&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition

[DEFCON4]

Outstanding bloke
Outstanding airman
Recognition way overdue

[Okihara]

Please forgive my ignorance. Just why would a national airline sack a captain who made the only difference that saved everyone on board following a technical "glitch"? Didn't that make him an immensely better pilot for it? I just don't get the rationale behind it.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

No-one got sacked.

[Okihara]

What are those messages about his career being ended by PTSD and Qantas not being supportive about it? I just read down the whole thread, maybe I got it wrong.

[Bull at a Gate]

There is a story in today’s Sydney Morning Herald about the litigation against Airbus and Northrop being settled on confidential terms. It’s behind a paywall, but you might be able to read it anyway as you are allowed free access for a while (or just delete cookies).

[C441]

There is a story in today’s Sydney Morning Herald about the litigation against Airbus and Northrop being settled

If you can't get it on the SMH site for whatever reason, have a look here (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/companies/qantas-crew-settle-lawsuit-decade-after-computer-sent-plane-into-dives-20180802-p4zv71.html).

[mickjoebill]

Outstanding bloke
Outstanding airman
Recognition way overdue

Startling honestly and frank account from the pilot.
Must read.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/i-ve-become-very-isolated-the-aftermath-of-near-doomed-qf72-20190514-p51n7q.html

mjb

[SOPS]

That is simply an amazing and very brave story. I take my hat off to him. So much more guts to write that, than another Qantas pilot wrote about ‘ how I am a really great pilot and something bad happened .. did I mention I was a really great pilot?’

[stiffwing]

I agree, and particularly liked the statement accompanying one of the photos in the book referring to the F/O on QF32 as "the hero pilot"... ouch, RDC!

[lobsterbisque]

https://www.harpercollins.com.au/9780733339745/no-mans-land-the-untold-story-of-automation-and-qf72/