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View Full Version : Survey: 2018, Instructor's terms and conditions on a changing market?


hugofly
12th Jun 2018, 20:00
As airlines are vacuuming everything with a license and a pulse, instructor tickets are becoming sought after.
As schools struggle to find competent trainers, conditions are improving for the latter, with poaching becoming reality ( who would have believed it in the past 2 decades!?)
Would be interesting to track the evolution.
If you want to remain anonymous, PM me and I will publish your numbers. (I will not change or edit your message if only to protect identity)
Let me start the dance:
Southern Europe, senior FI, IRI, CRI, EUR 34.000 + 25 euro/hour all gross
Southern Europe, Chief Flight Instructor, EUR 48.000 gross + bonus
Advertised: in Austria, Graz, annual gross salary: PPL Instructor: EUR 45,000, MEP/IR/CPL Instructor: EUR 60,000 with a chance of progressing to Jet AOC
Advertised: In Ireland, Cork, Senior FI/IRI/CRI, no basic pay, 75 euro/hour on aircraft, 65 euro/hour on simulator all gross.

MrAverage
13th Jun 2018, 08:53
If I had to pay the rates in your post to my PPL instructors there would be only one outcome. Sell the Club or close down.

There is a limit to what the average prospective pilot will pay for training. Most clubs and schools in the UK are already at or close to it.

hugofly
13th Jun 2018, 13:27
I hope your club will run for a long time and will not suffer due to changes in our industry.
Clubs and small ATOs are a needed component of our industry, many among us caught the bug or had their first taste of flying at a club.
I understand your concerns, as a club manager, about staffing in this market. Hopefully, you have local PPL instructors with no wish to move to greener pastures.
As you noticed my post is mainly aimed at career instructors, mostly teaching CPL, IR, Multi, not to belittle PPL instructors as they are traditionally at the bottom of the pay scale until experience and ratings got them up the ladder. We all started somewhere.
Understandably recreational pilots have a budget limits for their passion, limits which cannot stretch the way professional training has, running in many 10's or 100's of thousands.
Again, my aim was at professional training instructors, apologies if it wasn't clear.

If I may, what conditions a club PPL FI can expect on the Queen's Island?

Safe Landing

orionsbelt
14th Jun 2018, 10:18
£20 per hour flown max (£12-£15 usually ), no basic, Your doing it for Love arn't you? Your retired, You have got your pension what more do you want. All as said to by a Club owner.
Sorry mate I jacked it in after 42 Years flying.
***

hugofly
14th Jun 2018, 10:45
From private message

"northern England

All training 30 quid an hour no retainer.

Apart from instructors who only teach for the LAPL who get 25.

The school pays for FI rating. But only those who don't have CPL as they just leave"

Thank you for participating

hugofly
14th Jun 2018, 10:55
From private message

"some data for your survey...
Integrated ATO (Spain)
FI (includes IRI) ca. 20k/yr
CRI 30k/yr
gross (euro)
Perks: we have about 2 months leave, and only work Monday to Friday, excluding public and bank holidays.

They have the cheek to be disappointed with us for trying to move on to airlines, and tell us they pay us as much or even better than what some airlines are offering at entry level. Unfortunately, they seem to not realize airline pay improves after 2 years, while their deal will be the same in 2 years time if the school is still operating...

And I miss some "minor" perks like loss of license insurance, etc... (money's not everything).

If instructing was so awesome people would give up their airline jobs and go back to instructing. I only know people that come back and do it strictly part-time, if they don't have a family or other hobbies.

Cheers!"

Thank you for participating

Four Turbo
21st Jun 2018, 13:11
OK. How short are you? I am 80 but could still pass a Class One medical. Lapsed ATPL, 15000 hours (Canberras, Hercules, Electras) and a RAF A2 on piston and jet Provosts in the past. Could I find a bit of free flying somewhere in SE England?

BristolScout
5th Jul 2018, 17:13
4 Turbo. I'm 68 and originally thought I'd hang up my instructor's hat next year when the rating expires but will be renewing after all at the request of my FTO. Apparently, older instructors are quite the thing these days!

rudestuff
5th Jul 2018, 18:17
Do it! My IR instructor was 84 and really knew his stuff. He wasn’t interested in hours, so he got me through in minimums. The bonus is It’ll keep the little grey cells working, so you’ll probably keep your marbles longer.

hugofly
11th Jul 2018, 21:59
From Private message

"I'd rather just stay anonymous on this thread, but a PPL school in northern Scotland has now increased it's pay offer to £35 per hour flown, same pay for solo student flights, and decent pay for groundschool.

Same pay for a full PPL or an LAPL only instructor, I think slightly less while restricted though.

Advert is online quoting the above figure"

Thank you for participating

hugofly
11th Jul 2018, 22:03
From Private message

"thanks for your thread.
Here some data for FI mostly :

ATO south of France,
1400 net for 45 hrs guaranteed per month, about 25eu/brut/ per Hour, above the minimum, but hard to reach a decent income due to solos flight (counted 0.75 factor)
Possibility upgrade to IRI CRI, depending if they like you or not...if you're a good boy or not. There is no seniority list, it all depends on your face.
Many FI left (IR-CRI as well), including myself very soon hopefully https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif ( but shhhhuut). They do not do any effort to keep staff, they do not realise they are running into a wall...no respect
for instructors.
Notice period 3 months! (they do not deserve that we respect it....and I won't)"

Thank you for participating

nebojsar
16th Jul 2018, 09:30
I am looking for airline job and since I'm not waiting type of guy, missing flying, I'm considering to do FI rating and to fly until something come up. What do you guys suggest where to start training (in terms of salary and conditions)?

spitfirejock
20th Jul 2018, 17:56
I am surprised to read that pay is still so low in the current market which needs qualified EASA instructors, especially those with experience and additional privileges such as IRI,ME & FIC. I know the US schools used to train hundreds if not thousands of students per year for CAA/JAA and there was a big demand for instructors, surely there are still good opportunities to teach in the USA at descent pay rates? Anyone care to comment?

gerpols
21st Jul 2018, 11:04
I would love to work in the USA. Tell me the first ATO or Flightschool that is willing to sponsor me for a working visa !!
Gerrit
FAA ATP, CFII, MEI
EASA CPL. FI, IRI,CRI
ALL CURRENT, INCL BOTH CLASS 1 MEDICAL

spitfirejock
21st Jul 2018, 11:41
Good point about the working visa I guess this might be difficult to get? Perhaps a good idea to contact the UK & EASA approved schools listed in the USA (I think there are about 5) and find out if they are hiring, from what I know, student numbers are down because there is a general shortage of instructors.

Good Luck!

rudestuff
21st Jul 2018, 15:41
FlyEFT for one...

dobbin1
26th Jul 2018, 07:58
Current rate for a small PPL school in the South East UK is £25 per hour, shortly to rise to £30. Advanced training (Aerobatics/IR(r)) £5 more.

hugofly
12th Aug 2018, 20:20
From Private Message

"Interesting thread. I graduated as a 40+-year-old fATPL holder just as the recession hit in 2008. Fortunately, the ATO where I did all my training asked me to go back to do an FI rating which they full-funded. Stayed with them a while, moved on, but never left the world of instructing. Until recently I was working as a contractor pretty much full-time for £25ph flying-pay only at a modular school in the UK. I'm still there, but in full recognition of the current FI marketplace, I'm now being paid a salary of £25k teaching PPL(A) and CPL(A). You never say never about another flying job, but I love teaching and quite frankly wouldn't really want to do anything else. Also, think the current salary is a pretty fair one and there are options to earn more teaching as a CRI. "

Thank You for participating

hugofly
12th Aug 2018, 21:08
A personal offer from a college in Spain, headhunting through Linkedin for a CRI ME:
"Monday to Friday flight schedule
Aircrafts: Beechcraft Baron BE55, Beechcraft Bonanza BE33, Socata TB10 Tobago
Uniforms
Meals
Free annual medical examination
Free linguistic competency exam
Free renewal of flight instructor certificates which are used in the education process
22 working days vacations plus New Year and the Holy Week according to the Salamanca University calendar
EUR 30,000 annual salary plus EUR 5,000 upon signing a one-year contract"
Declined and wished them Good Luck.

Reverserbucket
13th Aug 2018, 11:46
Interesting thread - it seems that for commercial training the 'going rate' is less than it was 20 years ago and for PPL FI's it looks about the same (although I knew of salaried PPL jobs with an hourly flying/sim/groundschool rate on top). What do the big ATO's in the UK pay these days?

jamess115
14th Aug 2018, 10:21
Although I take the point that airlines are currently 'vacuuming' up Instructors, I'm very curious to know why the regionals etc would be interested in PPL Instructors teaching straight & level. From the Airlines perspective, Is it a case of just being in the industry coupled with a serious need for pilots ?

I dont yet meet the hours to qualify as an IRI so love to hear peoples opinion on this.

Happy Wanderer
15th Aug 2018, 06:40
I'm very curious to know why the regionals etc would be interested in PPL Instructors teaching straight & level.

Is that all you teach James115? I've personally known many an experienced MEIR instructor who've said the most challenging work they've ever done is teaching someone to fly from scratch. The regionals are interested in anyone with good handling skills amongst other important skillsets; if you don't mind me saying, your description is a too often heard indictment of the profession and isn't massively helpful.

HW

jamess115
15th Aug 2018, 07:23
Is that all you teach James115?
if you don't mind me saying, your description is a too often heard indictment of the profession and isn't massively helpful.

HW

Sorry mate, what's the point of a forum if I cant put forward questions and ask people's advice? ..
'Straight & level was simply used colloquially to describe the kind of flying one does as a PPL instructor. So basically 'I do mind you saying..' if your going to judge other members.

Reverserbucket
15th Aug 2018, 13:41
Try asking most integrated ATO graduates how to select and maintain S&L for a given speed/config and you might see why some operators like former instructors. The other advantage is experience - with hours in the logbook you are closer to meeting minimums for command, which is where there is currently some demand. There are other qualities that FI's bring such as an ability to convey information, greater exposure to the flying environment, and importantly a proven interest in teaching which is a desirable quality for potential TRI/TRE's. I know a number of former PPL flying instructors who are senior trainers/examiners on types as varied as the ATR and 747/A380. I also get Happy Wanderer's comment regarding teaching basic flying skills; by the time a student reaches the MEIR phase, they can already fly (apparently) - the real instructional work is done in the first 20 or so hours.

Happy Wanderer
15th Aug 2018, 17:36
Try asking most integrated ATO graduates how to select and maintain S&L for a given speed/config and you might see why some operators like former instructors. The other advantage is experience - with hours in the logbook you are closer to meeting minimums for command, which is where there is currently some demand. There are other qualities that FI's bring such as an ability to convey information, greater exposure to the flying environment, and importantly a proven interest in teaching which is a desirable quality for potential TRI/TRE's. I know a number of former PPL flying instructors who are senior trainers/examiners on types as varied as the ATR and 747/A380. I also get Happy Wanderer's comment regarding teaching basic flying skills; by the time a student reaches the MEIR phase, they can already fly (apparently) - the real instructional work is done in the first 20 or so hours.

Spot on. I've clearly touched a nerve or two....🙄

spitfirejock
15th Aug 2018, 20:53
I think the thread has started to go off in the wrong direction. Hugofly makes some good observations and its nice to see someone say out loud they love teaching and wouldn't want to do anything else. I believe the industry needs more people like this to survive and keep the standards where they need to be. I know there are schools that would pay more for dedicated instructors who are not racing off to the airlines as soon as they get the hours needed. I guess the real question is, what are these type of instructors worth, and perhaps, as already commented on this thread, what is a good school, looking for these type of instructors, willing to or can afford to pay? I do feel the 'hours building' instructors, which are still needed to meet training demand, have managed to drive the wages down. Its not their fault, its just old fashioned capitalism at work.

Whatever the answer might be, I think the industry has to wake up to the idea that good dedicated instructors are worth a lot more than 25K a year! - I hope everyone agrees with that, after all, this is the 'flying instructors and examiners' forum!!

Dan_Brown
8th Sep 2018, 17:11
What a great shame some of the retirees from airlines corporate etc., have to part out 8 grand plus to, pass on knowledge gained over long careers. Surely these are some of the people a flying school would benifit from having.

simmple
8th Sep 2018, 18:38
After instructing for many years then running off to the airlines to earn some pennies I am in a position to return and would love too but the hoops that need jumping plus the cost make it a difficult decision.

gerpols
9th Sep 2018, 08:26
Guys,

I contacted 4 ATO in the USA, if they were interested in my services.
3 replied, one so far not.
The 3 that replied all said the same thing, we would love to take you in, but can not sponsor you !!
Have a nice day,

Gerrit
FAA ATP CFII MEI
EASA CPL FI IRI CRI

Bridgestone17
11th Sep 2018, 11:18
After instructing for many years then running off to the airlines to earn some pennies I am in a position to return and would love too but the hoops that need jumping plus the cost make it a difficult decision.
Yes I am in a similar predicament and also at 67 would I get my investment back I wonder? It would also involve living away from home as there is nothing local.

UAV689
12th Sep 2018, 13:58
At the risk of thread creep further...EASA needs to seriously look at the requirements for some of the advanced teaching courses, specifically the MEIR. I love teaching, and do it on the side from my 737 job, but I cannot teach ME unless I have 30hrs p1, which will cost about 10k! I cannot afford that (as a 737 captain!!) so how can any freshly minted FI get that unless sponsored by a school, and not too many schools can afford that. There is a tiny market for piston twin work in europe now, so you cant get the hours that way, even if you had thousands of hours on a dash 8 I do not believe there is any dispensation!

It is fast approaching the point where all MEIR will only be taught at the 2-3 big schools. It is just not financially viable for the average flight school to teach this. Such a massive shame, as it will ultimately lead to a big closure in schools...

Meester proach
19th Sep 2018, 20:50
After instructing for many years then running off to the airlines to earn some pennies I am in a position to return and would love too but the hoops that need jumping plus the cost make it a difficult decision.


so would I, but my FI expired in 2002, so itíd cost thousands to get it back and take years to recoup that

spitfirejock
25th Sep 2018, 17:24
I do believe the Industry would benefit greatly from having experienced pilots (instructors) going back to ab-initio instructing. Consider writing to the CAA to obtain details of exactly what is required to renew your FI with SEP. I believe each person would be reviewed based on their experience, so training required could be a lot less than you might think!

An ex-colleague of mine did this about a year ago and was quoted 'training as required' to meet proficiency plus an AoC with an FIE, which resulted in less than 10 hours total training. The FIE, I believe, did the test for a minimal charge as a courtesy, and the school which was interested in his services paid for 50% of the costs for a commitment to work as an instructor for 12 months...sounds like a common sense approach to me!

As I have mentioned in a previous post, flight pay rates (and even basic salaries) have definitely improved in the last year, so I don't think it would take years to recoup the outlay. I do know a couple of schools that are eagerly looking for mature pilots to fill a current void if anyone would like to PM me for details (I think I am allowed to receive these now?).

hugofly
7th Oct 2018, 18:45
From Private message

"FI(R) 420 hours total, not a sniff from any airline, qualified 5-6yrs ago now. Instruct part time in the north of England for £18/flight hour, have a full time job in a different industry that earns me a living. Instructor rating paid itself off now and got me 150 hours. In my opinion no schools are recruiting locally or they are being picky as usual, I’m willing to relocate for a good paying full time flying job.

Feel free to reword appropriately. (did not)

Regards"

Thank you for participating

Parson
8th Oct 2018, 11:36
Read an article recently, think it was in The Times, re part time jobs that students were doing to pay their way, ie;

Language tutoring £25-30/hr
Videogame tutoring (eg Fortnite) £30/hr (you're joking, yeah?)
Piano/guitar teaching £18-39/hr
IKEA flatpack furniture assembly £20-25/hr (oh for goodness sake...)
Dog walking £15/hr
Cleaning £12/hr (£20/hr London)
Pet sitting £12/hr
Personal training £45/hr
Teaching yoga £30-50/hr

Kinda puts PPL instructor rates in perspective. Just saying.

jeepys
8th Oct 2018, 18:16
Instructing has always been poorly paid and probably will always be. After you take into account crap weather days and brief/debrief time you will earn a decent amount more working in Lidl.
Instructing has always been about building hours to get the big break. If you are older in years you have to seriously take this into account as the odds are stacked against you.
Did I regret doing it 18 years ago - definitely no.
Would I go through it at my age now (almost mid 40) - definitely no.

TheOddOne
8th Oct 2018, 22:09
The only one on that list that comes remotely needing any formal qualification would be music teaching, typically grade 8, but I guess there's no regulatory body stating that. So really, no comparison to a requirement for
a) a formal qualification
b) recurrent testing
c) a strict regulatory environment.

TOO

Parson
9th Oct 2018, 17:29
TOO

That was kinda my point - comparing what you can earn with little or no training or qualifications compared to what an FI(R) has to shell out to earn 20 quid an hour.

Airgus
10th Oct 2018, 13:52
Let's say you get paid 30 per "flying hour" GROSS, you need to consider almost half of this per hour.
30 minutes goes in briefing and AC preparation.
20 minutes goes on debriefing and deplaning (I mean securing AC, techlogs and walk to school).
Therefore your working hour is rewarded with less than 17 gross.

Out of the 17 you need to pay taxes, revalidation cost, medical, commuting to outisde of the city where most airfields are located, to name few of the costs.

A Yoga teacher, dog walker, guitar or language teacher will have other costs to pay and taxes but their working hour is based on the real hour. They arrived at 1300 hrs, they leave at 1400hrs and they get paid for one hour.
A FI will arrive in at 1200 leaves at 1400 and get paid for 1 flying hour.

If the industry is in need of experienced and motivated FI, the key here in my opinion, is not to hunt and form new FI but to retain the experienced ones.
The industry must pay FI according to their long term commitment.
As an example, Pay them 30 during the first year, but as a school calculate a 45 as a cost per hour to cover the rate of the experienced ones. With that cost pre-planned you can increment 5 per hour per year for at least 5 years without having a need to revise your operating costs.
​​

jeepys
10th Oct 2018, 20:50
It's still crap money either way. If you raise the level of pay to what it needs to be there will be very little business. Catch 22.

Nurse2Pilot
10th Oct 2018, 20:55
I would love to flight instruct but it seems like it's not worth it at the moment? As some have said, the hourly pay is low and if you count in the actual time you spend in the airport, that hourly pay is even lower! I don't want to seem like all I'm after is the money, but reality is that I'll probably be under a lot of debt at the point when I can flight instruct so paying that loan off would be a priority and if I can turn up on a nursing agency shift at 7am and leave at 8pm and be paid for 12 hours (two unpaid breaks), that will be a better use of my time. I suspect spending the same amount of hours on the airfield will only yield maybe 4-6 hours of pay?

TheOddOne
10th Oct 2018, 21:59
...or if it's over this weekend - zero. Don't forget whole days and sometimes weeks can get wiped out by the weather, wherever you are in the UK.

TOO

Nurse2Pilot
10th Oct 2018, 22:36
Yeah but if the weather is bad, then simply do not go to the airport in the first place? Is there a requirement for instructors to be sitting at the flight school when no flights are scheduled?

Meester proach
15th Oct 2018, 07:22
Quite often, unless it’s purely by the hour. I was paid a retainer at one school and a salary (£11k, 1997) at another. Always bits and bobs to do and we’d encourage students to come in and get briefed up for the next trip .

rarelyathome
15th Oct 2018, 07:32
Yeah but if the weather is bad, then simply do not go to the airport in the first place? Is there a requirement for instructors to be sitting at the flight school when no flights are scheduled?

i donít think youíve started your flying training yet or are in the early stages so you may not have seen how much time there is waiting on a iffy day. There are few days when one can guarantee no flying.

Nurse2Pilot
15th Oct 2018, 10:48
you may not have seen how much time there is waiting on a iffy day. There are few days when one can guarantee no flying.
So if the weather may clear up in the afternoon, the instructors are still supposed to be there all day? Maybe they (flight school) can ask that if the instructors are paid a retainer fee but not if the instructor is paid by flight hour, surely?

rarelyathome
15th Oct 2018, 14:04
So if the weather may clear up in the afternoon, the instructors are still supposed to be there all day? Maybe they (flight school) can ask that if the instructors are paid a retainer fee but not if the instructor is paid by flight hour, surely?

Depends on your relationship with your school. Its a 2 way street. Of course they can't compel you to be there if you are not on a retainer. However, if they only see you when you are guaranteed to fly, you are unlikely to have much of a rapport and you may find the work going to more committed instructors. Similarly, weather windows sometimes open for a couple of hours only. Would you be able to drop what you are doing, have time to get in, ensure the aircraft is prepped, brief and then fly the exercise if that unforecast window appears? If not, you could be losing the school money and you won't be instructing there long. Sadly, instructing isn't going to pay all your bills but does demand a huge committment. You have to ask yourself how committed you are likely to be. If the answer is anything less than fully, then getting to the airlines via instructing probably isn't for you.

Finally, just remember that not everybody can be an instructor. You need to be able to do more than just get a PPL. I would wait until you have seen how you are taking to the flying before worrying too much about life as an instructor.

Nurse2Pilot
16th Oct 2018, 15:12
I see what you mean! I do live close to the local flight school and was only thinking of doing this as a part-time instructor.... I've yet to see evidence of full-time instructing being anywhere near close to what I'm making in my main occupation.

Similarly, weather windows sometimes open for a couple of hours only. Would you be able to drop what you are doing, have time to get in, ensure the aircraft is prepped, brief and then fly the exercise if that unforecast window appears? If not, you could be losing the school money and you won't be instructing there long.
I'm sure in such an example, there would have to be students loitering in the school as well, correct? I wouldn't mind hanging around the school if there were students there and the possibility of flying and I'm sure if such a case were to happen, I would prep the aircraft anyway and also brief the student so no time is wasted when the weather does clear.... and worse case scenario is that we both go home if the weather turns sour and if it suddenly clears up in the afternoon, then the aircraft has already been prepped and we've briefed, so it'll only be a quick re-check over everything and then fly? Then again, I may have this all wrong...


Finally, just remember that not everybody can be an instructor. You need to be able to do more than just get a PPL. I would wait until you have seen how you are taking to the flying before worrying too much about life as an instructor.This is true, and not even the best pilots can be a good instructor.

xrayalpha
16th Oct 2018, 17:04
And most students have jobs they need to do to earn money, so if weather no good, they need to work.

And the student who hangs around wants to use the same instructor, they had before, but that instructor is the one who is off doing something else with their day!

Meester proach
17th Oct 2018, 05:32
I’d actually see if you can fly first, nurse2pilot , before moaning about the state of the instructor market.

It used to be a great stepping stone to the airlines, but less so now, they are not interested in 000s of hours of single time.its an irrelevance mainly to operating a modern airliner.

Itd be easier to make ikea furniture on my days off

Nurse2Pilot
17th Oct 2018, 08:28
Iíd actually see if you can fly first, nurse2pilot , before moaning about the state of the instructor market.
If you mean see if I have the skills, yes, I do. ;)
I did not realize I needed to have aviation qualifications before asking about (ie, moaning, as you put it) the state of the instructor market. That aside, am I wrong with the impression I'm getting that it's nowhere near competitive?
It used to be a great stepping stone to the airlines, but less so now, they are not interested in 000s of hours of single time.its an irrelevance mainly to operating a modern airliner.
Is it, really? Do you look at it as hours of single time? Or do you look at it as evidence of the desire and ability to teach others? Do you want a sh!t hot pilot who can't teach for squat or do you want a good pilot who can pass on his skills to others?

pondlife
17th Oct 2018, 20:10
After 20 years of instructing part time I tried full time over the Summer to see if I could get close to a level of earnings that I could live frugally on.

Mostly it was about giving myself the Summer I had promised myself for a long time but it was also an experiment to see if it might work longer term.
I thought I might get somewhere close over the summer but, actually, not a hope.
It'll have to wait until I've got much, much more money in the bank.

The problem wasn't so much to do with the peak earning level - mine is one of the better hourly paying PPL schools - it was more about the level of time commitment I need to make in order to get some chargeable hours. I had imagined that I might be able to do something else to earn a few pennies when either there is bad weather or when I'm short of students. In practice, while I was able to arrange my own timetable and only turn up at the airfield if there was something to do, I could not plan ahead sufficiently to make myself available for other activities. In order to get flying hours I must commit to being available for flying and then, when I find I'm available for something else, it's too late.
I also find myself putting quite a few more hours than I expected in the evenings etc. managing student queries and timetable changes.
So the effective pay rate after including commited but not spent days and extra homework is absolutely dire even though the hourly flying rate is pretty good.

So, Nurse2Pilot, my experience is consistent with your suspicions - and that's with all of my own training costs written off a long time ago.

Having said all that I have had the most wonderful Summer and don't regret it for a moment and can now go back to part time instruction and have the most incredibly rewarding job without having to worry about it paying so little.
I suggest that if you think you might enjoy instructing then you do the same.

Nurse2Pilot
17th Oct 2018, 21:34
So, Nurse2Pilot, my experience is consistent with your suspicions - and that's with all of my own training costs written off a long time ago.
Having said all that I have had the most wonderful Summer and don't regret it for a moment and can now go back to part time instruction and have the most incredibly rewarding job without having to worry about it paying so little.
I suggest that if you think you might enjoy instructing then you do the same.Thank you for confirming that, pondlife! Do you mind PM'ing me the details regarding school and hourly rate? I guess I'll put flight instructing in the backburner for now, something that I might pick up later on if Plan A doesn't go through. Hopefully, when all this training is done, I'll still have my current job and if the market has slowed down, I can look at flight instructing on the side and not worry too much about how much it pays. Quite sad to come to this decision, I was looking forward to instructing, but sadly, other responsibilities comes first.

jamess115
18th Oct 2018, 07:40
[QUOTE=Meester proach;10285141]
It used to be a great stepping stone to the airlines, but less so now, they are not interested in 000s of hours of single time.its an irrelevance mainly to operating a modern airliner. [QUOTE]



I partly agree with this, but the fact is that the regionals and larger carriers are aggressively hiring in the current market. Its not so easy to get multi time as a FI, unless of course you're reasonably experienced and meet requirements for an IRI. I would say any time flying regularly is what employers are looking for today.

Nurse2Pilot
18th Oct 2018, 21:47
they are not interested in 000s of hours of single time.its an irrelevance mainly to operating a modern airliner.I've heard advice to the contrary; that some recruiters are looking at what you've been doing in your spare/unemployed time. From what I understood, it seems that a fATPL holder who goes back to Tesco stocking shelves is looked upon less favorably than the guy who goes out and tows banners or gliders or whatever. Time in the air is time in the air and is experience under your belt. I think it was Captain Joe's video that mentioned this.

Luminance
20th Oct 2018, 17:32
There are several FI opportunities for salaried FIs that pay a good wage, especially if you are willing to travel. Greece has really good opportunities and they even pay for accommodation costs on top of the salary they pay you. I know Portugal also has a couple schools looking for instructors. It's a bit harder in the UK but south England I can think of several schools who are in need of Instructors. At my current school I know of 4 instructors who have been offered airline jobs over the past few months.

There are definitely opportunities out there and airlines really do like to recruit FIs but they don't like too many hours I hear, they prefer you to have about 1500hrs instructing.

Nurse2Pilot
20th Oct 2018, 18:18
What exactly is "too many hours"?

Luminance
20th Oct 2018, 19:59
What exactly is "too many hours"?
Can't say for certain and I don't think there's a defined too many but if they are after 1500hrs I would say about 2000hrs is where they start to think "too many".

xrayalpha
20th Oct 2018, 22:44
I seem to recall something one in Flight Training News that Easyjet didn't want people with more than 85 hours post PPL for one of their entry schemes.

Don't want other people's bad habits!

Meester proach
21st Oct 2018, 09:07
Most of the guys I fly on the airline with, have paid 100k euros for integrated training, spent 30k on a type rating, been treated like crap by Ryanair for three years then come to us.

very little have instructing experience . Although personally I believe any flying / other career before airlines makes the person more grateful and interested in the airline stuff.

Id done 1600hrs instructing when I got my break onto a small jet, but it was only a few airlines that actively courted instructors like AirUk and jersey European

Meester proach
21st Oct 2018, 09:13
I've heard advice to the contrary; that some recruiters are looking at what you've been doing in your spare/unemployed time. From what I understood, it seems that a fATPL holder who goes back to Tesco stocking shelves is looked upon less favorably than the guy who goes out and tows banners or gliders or whatever. Time in the air is time in the air and is experience under your belt. I think it was Captain Joe's video that mentioned this.


trust me, because Iíve done it, that 00s of hours instructing circuits in a Cessna have no relevance to airliner flying. You will peak in your ability to fly a heading at 90kts, then quite often you get worse as itís a bit boring after a while.

i would agree that any flying job is better than Tescoís though, but I wouldnít want more than say 2000 hrs at the end of it, as alluded to above, some airlines see that as negative training.

now if you were a multi IR instructor flying raw data ILS to minima most days, that would be good as conventional flying scans are quickly degraded in airliners and we do t do much raw data.

Nurse2Pilot
21st Oct 2018, 20:07
Do people really rack up thousands of hours just instructing circuits in Cessnas? I would've thought that someone would be looking at expanding their repertoire after a few hundred hours of instructing, go into CPL or ME or IR stuff. I agree that getting 00s of hours just flying circuits would be boring!

Meester proach
21st Oct 2018, 21:28
I’m not sure you are really getting into here......you’ll spend a lot of time with students in the circuit. You’ll spend a lot of time doing trial lessons. We used to sell dozens at Xmas - now those get really dull after the 100 th....

you our talk of the more advanced ratings - well they cost money. And on an instructors pay ( bearing in mind you’ve paid almost £9k for your instructors ticket ) you won’t be keen to pay for more flying. Multi engine is fairly specialised and not that common.

i think you should get that PPL before you think any further, I’m not sure you are living in the real world at present TBH.

Nurse2Pilot
21st Oct 2018, 21:47
Granted I am probably clueless about the "real world" of aviation and that's why I'm here, asking questions and learning about this.

However, you seem to be too focused on what the instructor is teaching... which is obviously useless in an airline environment. My point, which you seem to still miss, is that this is about evidence of the desire to and ability to teach.... are you saying this is also useless? I say it isn't, and if so, that'll make this "real world" of aviation close to the "real world" of healthcare where effective teachers are very valuable. Granted basic PPL FI pay isn't reflective of the value they bring, do you say it is the same for TRE/TRI in airlines?

As for advanced ratings, well, I think this thread already established that flight instructing pays a pittance compared to other types of jobs so if you think I was referring to getting other ratings while relying solely on FI pay, you've missed a few posts.

Meester proach
22nd Oct 2018, 04:10
Well, I’m not entirely sure where you are going with this.
Are you saying PPL instructing is useful because airlines recruit potential instructors ?

airlines recruit potential captains, instructing comes later and again most airline LTCs, TRIs don’t have a light instructing background ( in current airline ), because even if they have done it before they have to do a core course and the instructors course, and, of course pass the own airline selection routine.

pilots in the airline tend to go down one of three routes - instructing on the line or sim, management or “ other peripherals “ like safety department or recruitment. Of course many choose not to go down any of those routes and just remain line pilots

Nurse2Pilot
22nd Oct 2018, 10:02
Are you saying PPL instructing is useful because airlines recruit potential instructors ?
airlines recruit potential captains, instructing comes later and again most airline LTCs, TRIs donít have a light instructing background ( in current airline ), because even if they have done it before they have to do a core course and the instructors course, and, of course pass the own airline selection routine.I'm not saying that is a fact, I'm asking. True, anything a non-airline dude can teach has already been-there'd and done-that'd by airline pilots so he can't really teach them anything new, but the fact is that he has shown ability to and desire to teach. If you were to hire one person and in front of you are two candidates - a potential captain and a potential captain with flight instruction experience - which one do you think you'd want to recruit?

Dan_Brown
26th Oct 2018, 06:15
Check pilots, masquerading as instructors, tell you what you are doing wrong. Period.

A proper instructor will tell you what you are doing wrong, give reasons and demonstrate how to do it right They will also have people skills and the ability to teach!

Which of the above would you want??

AdzMc
29th Oct 2018, 17:17
I'd love to be able to do my FI rating, but I just simply cant afford it right now. I'm currently flying for an airline but have loads of debt left over from all of my training etc.....whilst there's sponsorship out there to help people get their FI ratings, I know I wouldn't stand a chance in getting that sponsorship.....one of the captains I flew with was on the board for either the Air League or GAPAN and said that whilst he'd love to give me funding, the organisation wouldn't as I'm deemed as not needing help with sponsorship etc.

If schools want more instructors, then they're going to have to do something other than just offer a couple quid an hour extra.....they need to be prepared to offer bonded sponsorship so they don't lose out if the instructors walk. I'd love to get my FI rating, not to build hours or anything, but because I want to teach.

Luminance
29th Oct 2018, 17:36
I'd love to be able to do my FI rating, but I just simply cant afford it right now. I'm currently flying for an airline but have loads of debt left over from all of my training etc.....whilst there's sponsorship out there to help people get their FI ratings, I know I wouldn't stand a chance in getting that sponsorship.....one of the captains I flew with was on the board for either the Air League or GAPAN and said that whilst he'd love to give me funding, the organisation wouldn't as I'm deemed as not needing help with sponsorship etc.

If schools want more instructors, then they're going to have to do something other than just offer a couple quid an hour extra.....they need to be prepared to offer bonded sponsorship so they don't lose out if the instructors walk. I'd love to get my FI rating, not to build hours or anything, but because I want to teach.

There are sponsored FI courses out there, I recently completed one! As of right now there are two that I know of in Greece and Portugal that are still accepting applications, wages are going up for the bigger schools from what I've seen and heard.

AdzMc
29th Oct 2018, 18:09
There are sponsored FI courses out there, I recently completed one! As of right now there are two that I know of in Greece and Portugal that are still accepting applications, wages are going up for the bigger schools from what I've seen and heard.

Doesn't help the people who are in full time work though. I certainly couldn't give up my airline job to go on a full time course in spain/portugal and I doubt many others could either.

Nurse2Pilot
29th Oct 2018, 21:53
Dan Brown, exactly my point!

Luminance, can you give any specifics of the sponsored FI course you've undertaken? Thanks!

NP1
30th Oct 2018, 08:39
Large ATO in North Greece just upgraded their FI terms & conditions (all net):
FI PPL: Basic 1160 euro up to 35 hours then 25euro/hourFI CPL: Basic 1250 euro up to 35 hours then 35euro/hourIRI: Basic 1330 euro up to 35 hours then 40euro/hourCRI/IRI: Basic 1550 euro up to 35 hours then 50 euro/hourBasic is paid 14 times per year in Greece (strange but true, all the better)

They provide accommodation, transportation, license and medical revalidation, even some tickets home.Somebody is taking their instructors seriously...But they are quite picky about selecting their employees

Luminance
30th Oct 2018, 18:19
Nurse2Pilot, I'll PM you some details, all I am going to say is that the course I took bonded me for the FI course and IRI including hour building and they paid me from day one. They offer flexible working contracts and good incentives for working overtime, there's lots of work so you'll never not be busy!

If anyone is actually interested in working UK/Portugal and has at least a CPL send me a PM and I will give them more details as we are recruiting for both our bases for qualified pilots with and without a FI rating.

@ Nurse2Pilot Your inbox is full apparently so drop me a PM when you free up some space.