Overwater survival equipment -- what do you carry?

[QDMQDMQDM]

Having posted a question about immersion suits, I'm tempted to ask people what they carry on overwater flights. I've been researching it quite a lot and what I am tempted to carry -- if I can face parting with the cash -- is:

Lifejacket
Immersion Suit
Rope
EPIRB
GPS
Handheld radio
+/- liferaft

I've stuck liferaft at the end as I'm not sure I'd get it out of the Super Cub and cost and weight are also major considerations. Also, I'm not planning any very long sea crossings.

By the way, this is a useful website, which unfortunately completely slates the common lifejackets and rafts on sale in the UK today:

www.equipped.com

What do other people do?

QDM

[nonradio]

3Q : Haven't you forgotten parachute, solar still, water, hardtack, fishing equipment.....;) I wish!

More seriously, for summer sea temps where you may have longer in the water before you know what gets you, and short trips eg channel I have only ever worn a lifejacket. mostly for reasons of space, and cost (yeah, yeah, wot price a life etc..).
I must admit to having flown, in younger days, over quite large bodies of water e.g the N. sea with just a jacket (all at cruise speeds of c.100kts) which I definitely wouldn't do now. If space and cost were no bar then a decent rubber boat would be on my list for longer sea x-ings, and an immersion suit for colder...
Having said that, an unexpected, suprise dip in a river out of an upturned indian canoe ( I rather fancied my skills at the time) with a v. short dist. to shore concentrated my mind about water and drowning, let alone the cold....and the need for attendance on a sea survival course if I was ever going to do some serious overwater flying.

My master plan was to fit floats but sadly higher authority did not approve (your machine should be alright though)

Anyway the engine isn't going to stop is it?

[skyraider]

QDM,

you could part with a bit more cash and carry 2 engines instead....:D

I would guess the rope is handy if there are 2 or more people but I would think it needs to be one that won't absorb water.

Just wondering about the Radio Beacon, GPS and hand radio, isn't that maybe a bit much to think about when you have just ditched, particularly if you dont have a raft..?

it's not a dig at your list, just speculation now that you have made me think about.

anyway... here's hoping you never need to find out...:D

cheers
Sky

[QDMQDMQDM]

you could part with a bit more cash and carry 2 engines instead....

Twice the chance of an engine failure and the second engine only takes you to where the crash is going to be. ;)

Just wondering about the Radio Beacon, GPS and hand radio, isn't that maybe a bit much to think about when you have just ditched, particularly if you dont have a raft..?

The thing is you can carry all these in pockets on your person, so if you get out they will get out. Not so with a raft.

More seriously, for summer sea temps where you may have longer in the water before you know what gets you

The water doesn't really warm up until August / September and anyway the distinction between winter and summer isn't that significant. Unprotected, you could be dead in two hours at water max temperature and an hour at water min temperature. Hence the immersion suit.

My master plan was to fit floats but sadly higher authority did not approve

Now you're talking! Plenty of J-3s flying in the US on floats, although I guess the performance must be pretty marginal (he said, sniffily). ;)

Anyway the engine isn't going to stop is it?

I bloody hope not.

QDM

[englishal]

I would suggest an immersion suit, if you can't get the life raft out quickly, then as you point out, you'll be dead in a couple of hours....We used to wear Gore-tex types flying offshore, comfortable and breathable....

Ideally, I would:

wear immersion suit
carry hand held EPIRB and possibly radio or have one within grabbing distance.

Its possible to get second hand immersion suits from some of the offshore helicopter companies, still perfectly good, but need to be replaced due to regulations. Otherwise a good nylon drysuit is a good bet, but you'll sweat like nothing else.

Anyone who underestimates the power of cold water....I saw a video once, it featured Duncan Goodhew and another olympic swimmer (can't remember her name?). They were put in a pool of North Sea temp water, and started swimming...after 10 minutes or so, they were useless and could bearly tread water.

(Saying that, my last trip to France a few weeks ago, I wore my standard Hawaiian shirt and shorts :D )

Cheerio

EA;)

[Tigerformation]

QDM where do you fly out of my friend, do you partake in much channel crossing. Just that me and a couple of friends were talking to a couple flying a white supercub at deuville airfield a while back. Was this you or someone else, may sound a bit strange. The guy also told us he flew tigermoth over the channel?!

[khorne]

I recently flew to and from the USA in a single engine aircraft. The complete list of what we took is endless and certainly included not only immersion suits but layers of clothing underneath and a very good liferaft.

The one thing that really stands out as mssing from these posts is a simple signal mirror. We obviously each carried masses of other signal equipment such as beacons, radios and flares but a simple mirror can usually be seen as great distances and really catches the eye of S&R.

[Romeo Romeo]

There are a couple of document about ditching on PPLIR which are worth a read. All you ever wanted to know about ditching but were too shy to ask (page 15) (http://www.pplir.org/journals/old/NETWORK%20No.%206.pdf) and one about SEMS (page 4) (http://www.pplir.org/journals/old/NETWORK%20No.%208.pdf).

Whenever I go over water (which has been only 4 times so far), I have always worn a lifejacket and had a good liferaft with me. My liferaft weighs about 10kg (3 gallons of fuel), but that decrease in range is a small price to pay. I haven't been on a survival course yet and I also don't have an EPIRB, but I think they are both wise options.

[QDMQDMQDM]

where do you fly out of my friend, do you partake in much channel crossing. Just that me and a couple of friends were talking to a couple flying a white supercub at deuville airfield a while back. Was this you or someone else, may sound a bit strange. The guy also told us he flew tigermoth over the channel?!

Out of Devon in a yellow Super Cub and I haven't been cross-channel yet, so wasn't me! Love to go there sometime, though.

QDM

[distaff_beancounter]

khorne Good thought about the signals mirror.

Mind you, I have always got a small mirror in my handbag, and we women pilots, always take our handbags with us, when we trot across to France ....

.... 'cos they also contain the Euros & the Credit Cards, for Le Shopping :D

[nonradio]

3QDM: the difference between 1hr ish and 2hr ish is significant and must increase your chances of being picked up (alive)by a boat or helicopter hence best not to fly in 'winter' without the proper kit or outside the range of SAR a/c; I'm still reasonably happy crossing between Dover and Cap G. N. with just a life jacket. Also helps if you have a leeetle extra subcutaneous padding...

Sore point about 'marginal' - What does that mean? If a 65HP a/c can get off the water and not hit anything and vice versa wot is the problem? What would be 'desirable' is a completely different point. I have flown 65HP Cubs and T-craft off water and never felt marginalised. Felt insecure in a C172 floatplane though. Anyway, it was all down to approval of the type and it wasn't approved in the UK, the 60 years of US approval and operating experience meant nothing, of course to you know who...yup a SORE point!!! My floats are currently garden ornaments.

so there.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Sore point about 'marginal' - What does that mean? If a 65HP a/c can get off the water and not hit anything and vice versa wot is the problem? What would be 'desirable' is a completely different point. I have flown 65HP Cubs and T-craft off water and never felt marginalised. Felt insecure in a C172 floatplane though.

Oooooooh, listen to him!

Sorry -- forgot how sensitive the J3 brigade are about anything to do with horsepower. No, no you're right -- 65HP is PURRRLENTY. Take you to the moon it would.

;)

QDM

[PhilD]

Surely it depends on what water you intend to cross. Factors I would include would be: the temp of the water, distance over water, cruising height, the number of boats etc etc. What you would carry over the Florida Keys is not the same as the North Sea.

Call me fatalistic, but I find the 'I won't fly over the Thames without a raft and immersion suit' attitude surprising from people who accept the inherent danger of any flying.

[nonradio]

Phil D : Interesting you should mention the Thames as helicopters making use of the helilane along the Thames are required to ditch in the event of a forced landing! Ho Hum...

[nonradio]

3 QDM: you're not helping...:D

[englishal]

Surely it depends on what water you intend to cross

Very true. For water temp < 23°C, you are required to wear immersion suits when flying offshore in a helicopter. Over this temp, you just have to wear a lifejacket. Probably a good guideline to follow, so if you are flying in Africa, then obviously an immersion suit is not nescessary.

Ditching in the Thames is probably enough to kill you straight away, all that sh@t in the water :D

Cheers
EA;)

[QDMQDMQDM]

Call me fatalistic, but I find the 'I won't fly over the Thames without a raft and immersion suit' attitude surprising from people who accept the inherent danger of any flying

You can accept inherent danger and still take reasonable precautions to minimise risk. I'd call an immersion suit in conditions where you can be dead in under two hours and incapable and incoherent in much less 'reasonable precautions'.

QDM

[bluskis]

Life rafts, I have heard they sink unless you are pretty quick with the inflation, anyone had the experience.

Definitely two engines for me after engine trouble over water.

With a single height is the best safety item to carry.

[Avoiding Action]

I live on a SAR base - over many drunken conversations in the bar, this is what I've gleaned:

Life Jacket

Immersion Suit
Liferaft (ideally both, significantly different colour from the sea)

EPIRB. Even on a clear day with a calm sea and reasonably accurate knowledge of the ditching point, a one of two person liferaft can be extremely difficult to see. With a transmitter they can fly straight to you.

Flares. Poor man's EPIRB.

Funny thing was, the SAR boys all appeared to sober up when I was talking about single engine over water. :eek:

[StrateandLevel]

Before you start generating lists of equipment I suggest you get someone to take you off shore by about 3 miles, then jump into the water with your dingy and stay there for a couple of hours. You will change any views you currently have

Protection
Location
Water
Food

come to mind. Without protection, the rest are useless after about 15 minutes.

[LowNSlow]

Anybody who thinks that they are going to last 1 hourish in our winter waters is seriously deluding themselves. Some people have but they are not in the majority!

Go on one of the offshore survival courses and you'll see what I mean. Lowestoft harbour in winter, bbrrrrrrrr.

I remember reading about a chap who turned his EE Lightning into a convertable and landed in the Irish Sea. Conditions were relatively calm but he hadn't put his immersion suit on properly and water leaked in through the neck. By the time the SAR boys turned up in their big yellow beastie (I bet they look lovely when you're in the oggin looking up at them :D) he was virtually immobile from the cold and had to be put in the sling. He'd been in the water around 10-15 minutes.............

The SAR chopper had been prewarned of his probable location and he'd been floating down from quite a height so they got to him quicker than they probably would get to me and thee.

There was also the chap who had engine failure in a C172 over the Solent and ditched about 150 yds offshore. He had no lifejacket but he did have a poly bag full of poystyrene packing that his new radio had been in. He couldn't make it ashore but luckily a chap in a rowing boat saw him go in and pulled him out of the water, again virtually immobile after a very short time in the briny.

And finally. anyone who has seen the video of people being hauled out of the Potomac River by some extremely brave people after the DC-9 disaster there will be in no doubt about how quickly cold water paralyses you. OK the air temperature was a factor but the water they were in was at +1C or thereabouts, not a lot colder than British coastal waters in the wintertime.

As somebody pointed out lifejackets are useful to help the rescuers find the ones who didn't survive the ditching.......

[QDMQDMQDM]

So here's the $64m question then: How long will I actually survive in my ex-North Sea immersion suit?

Anyone got any idea?

QDM

[StrateandLevel]

Without a dinghy - not long.

Before ditching squawk 7700 Radio call on 121.5 for satellite triangulation and if you can, ditch alongside a ship.

[LowNSlow]

QDM cubed If the suit is in good condition and you have the appropriate (warm) clothes underneath and you get your gloves on and the spray hood up, probably around 1 hour depending on sea temp obviously. You'll survive but you will be suffering from exposure and no use to man or beast in self help terms.

If you're in a dinghy then it could be 12 hours or more depending on the sea state, how often you chuck up and dehydrate etc.

[Whirlybird]

QDM,

Excellent thread; many thanks for starting it. I've been trying to look into this too. Up till now I've only worn a life jacket, on one helicopter trip to Paris, one C152 trip to Ireland, one heli trip from LA to Catalina Island, and various times over the Wash, Firth of Forth, London heli routes along the Thames etc. Yes, quite alot, yet I say I hardly ever cross water. :eek:

From everything I've heard, an immersion suit is essential; LowNSlow's estimate of ten minutes without one seems to be generally agree, in UK waters at any time of year. I remember seeing a graph showing survival times with and without an immersion suit at different water temperatures; if I can find it I'll summarise it here. I seem to remember you'd be OK for a couple of hours with an immersion suit. But more importantly, think of the scenario - you have engine failure, put out a Mayday, SAR sent out, they find you in 15-20 minutes, with an immersion suit you're alive, without one you're dead. :(

Liferaft? Never get it in, or I suspect out of, an R22. My usual co-pilot says not much use in a C152 as high wing aircraft will sink up to the wings too quickly. Anyone know if that's true?

Loads of people have suggested doing a ditching course of some sort. I haven't yet, but...

The Gasco seminar for 2002 is on "Search and Rescue and Safety Equipment", Sat 23rd Nov at Cosford. Lots of speakers about these subjects, plus an optional dinghy drill in the pool afterwards. I've never been to any Gasco seminars before, but this sounds good anyway. 01634.200203 for details.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Liferaft? Never get it in, or I suspect out of, an R22. My usual co-pilot says not much use in a C152 as high wing aircraft will sink up to the wings too quickly. Anyone know if that's true?

Allegedly not so. They either end up on their backs -- rare. Or most commonly float nose down on the leading edge with most of the cockpit out of the water. Lots of ditching myths debunked at www.equipped.com

QDM

[GRP]

I plan to take one of my children over the channel in a few weeks time. I'll be taking the shortest route over possible - whilst I dread the thought of getting out of an aircraft on water and getting my raft inflated, the thought of doing so while helping a 6-year old along as well does not appeal!

What I don't have is a life jacket for him. I've got the type that you use in boats - children's ones being permanently bouyant so there is no need for them to inflate them once in the water. Do people think this would be a good idea in the aircraft or should I be looking for something that can be kept uninflated? This is for a 6 year old (and probably a 4 year old but she will not be on this trip)

[nonradio]

GRP: permanently buoyant lifejackets can apparently (seems reasonable) make escape from a water filled cabin extremely difficult, especially if it became necessary to 'dive' underwater to get out. I certainly wouldn't wear one flying, and I am very particular about the release cord/ring on my PFDs being secured with minimum dangle..
The other advantage of the 'proper' sort is that an unconscious person is held afloat with the head out of water.
I was under the impression that PFDs came in child sizes, but I could be wrong

[LowNSlow]

Whirly you'll have to have ditched pretty close to a SAR station for the big yellow bird to reach you in 15-20 minutes these days. You'll probably have about 5 minutes at best glide (maybe lesss in an R22 :D) after getting the mayday out before you're in the water, assuming you're at around 3,000' to start off with.

The current level of SAR protection around our coastal waters means that you could be in the oggin for up to an hour before they reach you. Also there are gaps in the cover over the Irish Sea, Western English Channel and, unsurprisingly, the North Sea as far as I recall from an article in the dim past about the reduction in SAR cover a number of years ago. :(

I would be very grateful if some SAR chaps or chapesses correct me on this ;)

[rotated]

No one's mentioned the odd pint of scotch, in addition to everything else, of course. Keeps the chill off, and if they find you frozen as a collander at least you'll have a smile on... ;)