View Full Version : Trainee firefighter blows whistle, claiming teachers called students ‘fat f**ks, dumb
Australian firefighter recruit hits back at alleged abusive trainers (http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/trainee-firefighter-blows-whistle-claiming-teachers-called-students-fat-fks-dumb-sts-and-spastics/news-story/3c3405c48d62386b20b862f309ff0e38)
So the two perps got "sanctioned" by Airservices for their behaviour. Meanwhile someone who could well have turned out to be an excellent fire and rescue officer had their career flushed down the sh*tter.
LeadSled
23rd May 2018, 08:52
Australian firefighter recruit hits back at alleged abusive trainers (http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/trainee-firefighter-blows-whistle-claiming-teachers-called-students-fat-fks-dumb-sts-and-spastics/news-story/3c3405c48d62386b20b862f309ff0e38)
So the two perps got "sanctioned" by Airservices for their behaviour. Meanwhile someone who could well have turned out to be an excellent fire and rescue officer had their career flushed down the sh*tter.
Folks,
Sound like some delicate little flowers wilted under the strain??
I suppose Airservices will have to provide "safe spaces" for those demanding it, and guaranteeing that ARFFS perx will not be confronted with upsetting circumstances that cause personal distress.
I am not being entirely sarcastic here, no names no packdrill, but in a certain airline two cabin crew perx under training quit during the cabin evacuation training, finding all the shouting and pushing and shoving "loud, physical and distressing" and in particular apparently felt that "evacuation commands" should have been "requests delivered in a less strident tone".
I kid you not. At least they quit, but will they sue??
Tootle pip!!
PS: PERX: a gender neutral term to describe an alleged member of the human race, consistent with the Australian Government style guide.
cbradio
23rd May 2018, 09:26
"Former Sydney paramedic "
delicate ? Maybe not.
Traffic_Is_Er_Was
23rd May 2018, 10:04
“It’s hard to learn, stay focused and not make mistakes when you are on edge wondering what words might be yelled at you.”
However, it seems the other members of the course managed to learn, stay focused, and not make mistakes, while having various words yelled at them.
currawong
23rd May 2018, 10:17
“made so many sacrifices through the recruitment process to make it onto this team”
But, being called out for cocking up obviously wasn't one of them.
Squawk7700
23rd May 2018, 11:37
Typical reply from LeadSled and really shows your age old chum! You can't treat people like that any more!
Airservices aren't the military and not even the military treats their soldiers like that any more and haven't done so for a long time!
On a side note... Was interesting to see The Age running a positive story today about ATC staff being in the top earners at $140k'ish average.
Stay tuned for the next story about them in the news which will be another negative one. Their marketing department will be crapping themselves this week!
kaz3g
23rd May 2018, 12:05
Typical reply from LeadSled and really shows your age old chum! You can't treat people like that any more!
Airservices aren't the military and not even the military treats their soldiers like that any more and haven't done so for a long time!
Exactly Squawkie...ASA is vicariously liable for the actions of its staff and these allegations could be taken a lot further by Fair Work or HREOC. I hope they are.
Leadslead’s Neanderthal comments are neither funny nor appropriate.
kaz
“It’s hard to learn, stay focused and not make mistakes when you are on edge wondering what words might be yelled at you.”
Sounds like a few check captains I flew with..
Sounds like a few check captains I flew with..
and maybe one of them posted here earlier.
LeadSled
23rd May 2018, 14:19
Typical reply from LeadSled and really shows your age old chum! You can't treat people like that any more.
7700,
Despite the times we live in, there are some jobs that can be high stress, as I am sure you know. Before I criticise the ASA trainer, I would want to know a lot more about the real circumstances, because I don't believe the original premise, I wonder what the balanced story really was. And I don't have much faith in ASA senior management making other than PC determinations.
As for the airline case I quoted, and I do have confidence in the reporter, it is a pathetic example of the times, in which we live ----- Where "being nice and polite" takes precedence over giving orders and demanding action that might save lives. Sadly, even in the flightdeck, I have come across an inability to give orders, when an order was legally required ---- and this is NOT in circumstances of normal CRM interaction, so don't throw that one back.
Tootle pip!!
Traffic_Is_Er_Was
23rd May 2018, 18:37
But according to Ms Madsen and Ms Davies, the reality of training
There it is in a nutshell.
said she had “made so many sacrifices through the recruitment process to make it onto this team” including a move from Sydney
Is that not what happens when you resign from one position to take up another different career that is in a different locale, and is there no chance of failing this training?
Meanwhile someone who could well have turned out to be an excellent fire and rescue officer had their career flushed down the sh*tter
Or may well have turned out average or even below average, or perhaps not even passed. She pulled the pin just over half way through, so who knows?
her three-page resignation letter
Really?
tio540
23rd May 2018, 20:35
She probably quit when she found out the men were paid more.
Still just trying to get my head around where giving orders and taking action" is justification for someone being called a "fat f*ck" or ""dumb". As Squawk7700 mentioned, even the military doesn't pull that crap any more. When I was an instructor at RMC Duntroon in the early 90s there were still a few knuckle dragging Neanderthals on staff who couldn't quite grasp the fact that you don't get the best out of an individual regardless of gender by shouting and screaming abuse.
If the facts of the complaint were not true I doubt very much that the disgruntled trainee would have gone public. AsA have not denied those facts but even here there seems to be people who subscribe to this type of behaviour.:confused:
The trainee may well have not been up to standard but there are more than adequate provisions under the AQTF to deal with this.
tio540
24th May 2018, 00:13
A three page resignation letter because I heard some nasty words. Did she realise she would attend aircraft fires, with potential deceased on board?
As for Neanderthals, the military have toughened up young snowflakes for centuries with those “nasty phrases”, and to good effect apparently.
If anyone is offended feel free to go to the safe room.
LeadSled
24th May 2018, 00:13
Still just trying to get my head around where giving orders and taking action" is justification for someone being called a "fat f*ck" or ""dumb". As Squawk7700 mentioned, even the military doesn't pull that crap any more. When I was an instructor at RMC Duntroon in the early 90s there were still a few knuckle dragging Neanderthals on staff who couldn't quite grasp the fact that you don't get the best out of an individual regardless of gender by shouting and screaming abuse.
If the facts of the complaint were not true I doubt very much that the disgruntled trainee would have gone public. AsA have not denied those facts but even here there seems to be people who subscribe to this type of behaviour.:confused:
The trainee may well have not been up to standard but there are more than adequate provisions under the AQTF to deal with this.
Folks,
One of the reasons I doubt the basic premise of the allegation is that I have never , in any aviation training (or other aviation) situation (this is not a building site and/or a CFMMEU "meeting") heard, or heard of such language being used, outside of a bar over a few beers, and never in a professional situation.
But I can well imagine ASA management going to water on the matter. And as some of you well know, I have been around aviation a long time.
If a few of you gave it a bit of thought before you jumped to abuse, yourselves, nothing I originally posted condoned the language allegedly used. I just need a lot of convincing the situation occurred as claimed, as opposed to just accepting the allegations of the disgruntled failed trainee.
Tootle pip!!
Capn Bloggs
24th May 2018, 04:04
Did she realise she would attend aircraft fires, with potential deceased on board?
Given she's a paramedic, she'd probably handle that better than you would.
If a few of you gave it a bit of thought before you jumped to abuse yourselves
I'll try but I just can't help it. Jumping in. To abuse myself. :ok:
currawong
24th May 2018, 04:21
Once in a while a training establishment may have a staff member that over steps the mark. Time will tell.
Some operational environments are challenging, adverse and carry a degree of risk.
This risk can be managed to a degree by the quality of the training provided and the suitability of the candidates. Hats off to any individual that volunteers for these roles.
However not all measure up. Better to discover this early in the selection or training phase than later on operations where the consequences are final. Better for the individual, better for the organisation and better for the recipient of whatever service it is they provide.
Global Aviator
24th May 2018, 04:54
Bring back National Service...........
outnabout
24th May 2018, 05:50
Capn Bloggs, now there's a mental image that has my trembling hand reaching for some mind-bleach....
LeadSled
24th May 2018, 06:47
I'll try but I just can't help it. Jumping in. To abuse myself. :ok:
Bloggsie,
Good catch, amazing what a missing comma can do to the intended meaning --- post suitably edited.
Now, back to my major point, I would need a lot of convincing that the claims of the complainant are what really happened.
Tootle pip!!
LeadSled
24th May 2018, 08:00
Bring back National Service...........
Global Av,
Reminds me of a cousin who, as a young fellow was only one step removed from being a juvenile delinquent.
Much to everybody's surprise, he even made Sergeant at the end of his callup.
Nashos turned him into a useful citizen who eventually ran a very successful Stock and Station Agent business in his part of NSW.
Tootle pip!!
Squawk7700
24th May 2018, 08:40
Now, back to my major point, I would need a lot of convincing that the claims of the complainant are what really happened.
Tootle pip!!
Again, LeadSled, in this particular instance you are showing that you should stick with whatever it is that you do and steer clear of offering your thoughts on thinks event as it's very clear you have zero experience in this arena.
Formal investigations and stand-downs don't take place on a whim. A smart young lass like this one will have evidence and witnesses and I would be guessing that statements and evidence would have already been provided (wink, wink)...
You're the one preaching to us about strict liability on aa semi regular basis and this is no different, you should know that!
Global Aviator
24th May 2018, 08:41
Imagine trying to bring it in with today’s cotton wool society!
Squawk7700
24th May 2018, 08:42
Now, back to my major point, I would need a lot of convincing that the claims of the complainant are what really happened.
Tootle pip!!
Again, LeadSled, in this particular instance you are showing that you should stick with whatever it is that you do and steer clear of offering your thoughts on thinks event as it's very clear you have zero experience in this arena.
Formal investigations and stand-downs don't take place on a whim. A smart young lass like this one will have evidence and witnesses and I would be guessing that statements and evidence would have already been provided (wink, wink)...
“The two staff members have since received official sanctions including a formal written warning for one staff member, and formal counselling for the other,” the spokesperson said.
Do you honesty think they would do this on the word of one recruit?
currawong
24th May 2018, 08:53
"Do you honesty think they would do this on the word of one recruit?"
Squawk did you actually read the article?
tio540
24th May 2018, 09:51
Capn Bloggs, I have an extensive history in the accident investigation area, how about yourself?
exfocx
24th May 2018, 10:00
Leadsled,
Haven't you learnt not to keep digging when you're in a hole?
First off you missed the point she was a paramedic, so pretty much likely to be able to handle the stress level of any job, then you doubted the veracity of the allegation, which as the investigation pointed out, were upheld with the 2 dickheads being disciplined. Obviously you'd reached your conclusions without knowing any details, well done!
currawong
24th May 2018, 10:45
"First off you missed the point she was a paramedic"
Did anyone actually read the article?
Squawk7700
24th May 2018, 10:58
"Do you honesty think they would do this on the word of one recruit?"
Squawk did you actually read the article?
I did and noticed that there was more than one complainant. Seems that others didn't read it! I was referring to the single complainant because LS kept referring to her as a single.
Squawk7700
24th May 2018, 11:00
"First off you missed the point she was a paramedic"
Did anyone actually read the article?
One of the complainants was formerly a Sydney based paramedic, or so the article says.
currawong
24th May 2018, 11:16
Correct. Still recommend reading it again.
I have no reason to believe the article is not factual. Needs to be read carefully and in its entirety though.
One written and one verbal warning for bad language. The gist and methodology of the training does not appear to have been affected at all.
Where is the stand down about which you speak? I have read it twice and can't seem to find it.
LeadSled
24th May 2018, 11:52
Again, LeadSled, in this particular instance you are showing that you should stick with whatever it is that you do and steer clear of offering your thoughts on thinks event as it's very clear you have zero experience in this arena.
Formal investigations and stand-downs don't take place on a whim. A smart young lass like this one will have evidence and witnesses and I would be guessing that statements and evidence would have already been provided (wink, wink)...
Do you honesty think they would do this on the word of one recruit?
7700,
Strange as it may seem to you, I actually have quite a CV of experience in investigating matters that include matters very similar to what appears to have happened here.
"Honestly" --- Yes I do honestly believe I have seen some terrible miscarriages of justice by very one-side and far from competent investigations, and " modern OH&S management", or as often, insurance companies holding the D&O policy, all to happy to settle a matter regardless of any injustice done to the accused.
And all too often I have seen a "gang-up" of employees out to "get" a supervisor or similar, with very doubtful "evidence" to back up the complainant.
As far as I am concerned, I simply do not believe that the premise as described would be a balanced description of what really happened.
Again, based on my experience, it is usually down to the sixth interview before you really start to get a clear view as to what really happened. Anybody who investigates car insurance claims will know exactly what I mean.
Tootle pip!!
Squawk7700
24th May 2018, 12:16
sixth interview before you really start to get a clear view
Jeez, hope they weren't paying you by the hour for your investigations! You must have really been dotting your i's and crossing your t's.
Whilst working as a Police officer I don't recall ever seeing any of my colleagues taking 6 interviews to charge an offender!
What a pissing contest this has turned into.
LeadSled
24th May 2018, 23:56
Whilst working as a Police officer I don't recall ever seeing any of my colleagues taking 6 interviews to charge an offender!
And that just about says it all about the "average" police approach, particularly when the "police" are CASA, ATSB, OH&S or other similar investigators.
If getting at the "factual facts" is so easy and straightforward, why do we need courts, AAT and similar to sort disputed "facts" out ---- when the "facts" were clear all along??
Tootle pip!!
PS: I was recently told by an "expert inspector" that I couldn't have compressed nitrogen in the building (it was to supply pressure to hydraulic systems in a simulator) because "nitrogen is inflammable".
Connedrod
25th May 2018, 01:01
Folks,
Sound like some delicate little flowers wilted under the strain??
I suppose Airservices will have to provide "safe spaces" for those demanding it, and guaranteeing that ARFFS perx will not be confronted with upsetting circumstances that cause personal distress.
I am not being entirely sarcastic here, no names no packdrill, but in a certain airline two cabin crew perx under training quit during the cabin evacuation training, finding all the shouting and pushing and shoving "loud, physical and distressing" and in particular apparently felt that "evacuation commands" should have been "requests delivered in a less strident tone".
I kid you not. At least they quit, but will they sue??
Tootle pip!!
PS: PERX: a gender neutral term to describe an alleged member of the human race, consistent with the Australian Government style guide.
well once busdriver we can agree on something
tootie toot toot
red_dirt
25th May 2018, 02:40
And that just about says it all about the "average" police approach, particularly when the "police" are CASA, ATSB, OH&S or other similar investigators.
If getting at the "factual facts" is so easy and straightforward, why do we need courts, AAT and similar to sort disputed "facts" out ---- when the "facts" were clear all along??
Tootle pip!!
PS: I was recently told by an "expert inspector" that I couldn't have compressed nitrogen in the building (it was to supply pressure to hydraulic systems in a simulator) because "nitrogen is inflammable".
Because CASA are known for getting their "factual facts" arnt they
Squawk7700
25th May 2018, 04:04
So now the Police can't run a proper investigation eh LeadSled? Which Police force are you referring to or are you just covering them all with your sweeping motherhood statement?
megan
25th May 2018, 04:37
So now the Police can't run a proper investigationThey can when they want, sometimes they don't. Our history is replete with police impropriety.
Traffic_Is_Er_Was
25th May 2018, 05:10
you missed the point she was a paramedic, so pretty much likely to be able to handle the stress level of any job
That is just an assumption. Perhaps she couldn't handle the stress, or was not very good at it, thus attempting a career change. ARFF are pretty much likely to never have to actually ply their trade. Lots of riding around in trucks though. Wonder if she'll apply for civvie firies. Assumptions again, of course.
krismiler
26th May 2018, 03:24
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3j3_iPskjxk
LeadSled
26th May 2018, 06:50
7700,
An ex-Commonwealth cop ( in good standing) and long time ICAC investigator used to work for me, you must have had a sheltered life.
Are you really unaware of the corruption in any of the east coast police forces over the years. From Constable to Commissioner??
And as for CASA, too may CASA "investigators" over the years have been de-frocked policemen, subsequently hired by CASA.
On another note: I am really concerned, Rod the Con agrees with me about something!!
Tootle pip!!
Pinky the pilot
26th May 2018, 07:24
PS: I was recently told by an "expert inspector" that I couldn't have compressed nitrogen in the building (it was to supply pressure to hydraulic systems in a simulator) because "nitrogen is inflammable".
And after you recovered from the shock of hearing such stupidity, what did you say Leadsled?:D
the corruption in any of the east coast police forces over the years. From Constable to Commissioner??
Not limited to the east coast either. :hmm:
tio540
26th May 2018, 10:36
Leadsled, having employed an ex policemen means squat actually. If you have all this information about constables, and commissioned ranks go to the ombudsman. I’m sure they would love to hear about 40,000 corrupt individuals.
fl610
26th May 2018, 20:48
https://vimeo.com/239050403
Andy_RR
27th May 2018, 03:39
Whatever the accuracy of the account given in the press article, I don't get why you'd kick up a stink over this issue and then resign, especially when citing "sacrifices made" for the cause. If you can't be adult enough to find a resolution to an issue like this that makes an ongoing working relationship viable rather than running to the press with your sob story, it smacks more of an attempt at virtue signaling than it demonstrates a strength of characters
Capn Bloggs
27th May 2018, 04:30
Good one, FL610. :ok:
LeadSled
27th May 2018, 08:36
Leadsled, having employed an ex policemen means squat actually. If you have all this information about constables, and commissioned ranks go to the ombudsman. I’m sure they would love to hear about 40,000 corrupt individuals.
tio540.
Are you for real. Whatever you are smoking must be No.1 Goof Sh*t.
Do you ever read newspapers, or various ICAC/Royal Commission/ ALRC/whatever reports etc.
Have you never become aware, by any means, of the long running complaints about CASA investigative activities, which keep the AAT busy.
Get rid of your rose coloured glasses.
Tootle pip!!
Squawk7700
27th May 2018, 09:35
Leady is probably just annoyed after some traffic cop in the boondocks picked him up hooning along in his V8 Statesman at 30 kms over and he probably wonders why he didn't get let off.
Frank Arouet
27th May 2018, 09:40
The Commonwealth Ombudsman has been compromised by infiltration of past CAsA employees. Now they would be the last avenue of redress. State Ombudsmen (or insert your gender specific here), are like the Banking and Legal Ombudspeople who are beholden to their Peers and providers. The AAT is the only avenue of redress, but one can't have a redress of wrongs until they have been wronged.
The end result is nobody has any protection from excesses from those controlling our "mantle of safety".
Beware the CAsA "own motion" investigation which gives them the opportunity to write their own terms of reference.