How to Correctly log PICus time

[PelicanSquawk]

Hi all,

I have searched several forums and actually can't find the answer to this, so I am hoping someone can help me.

I understand that a successful PPL skills test can be claimed as PICUS, which in my logbook would mean putting the hours in the PIC column, and writing "PICUS" in the comments bit. I have a couple of questions though:

1. When logging PICUS do I put "Self" in the PIC name column, or is the examiners name?

2. Do PICUS hours count as PIC hours for things like CPL minimum requirements etc? As there is no separate column, they would be hard to take out of the total each time.

I appreciate any answers to this.

Thanks

[Gertrude the Wombat]

(0) I put "P1 u/s" in the "holder's operating capacity" column
(1) I put the examiner's name
(2) AFAIK they count for anything for which you need P1, but I'm sure more authoritative voices will be along shortly. Preferably before this thread gets to 27 pages.

Nobody has ever complained about me doing the above.

[PelicanSquawk]

OK thanks. I have it looged as dual, but I'll change it to PIC, and then write PICUS by the side.

[FlightDetent]

My side is EASA/JAA, shall be identical. Gertrude's correct.

Do not forget any PIC(US) hours should be countersigned by the true Commander directly in the remarks column.

[DaveW]

From CAP804:
http://i64.tinypic.com/2gy82ls.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/e5fgwm.jpg

[PelicanSquawk]

Thanks for this... I did read it first also, I just wanted to see a specific example of recording it, and I find CAA guidance is often open to a lot of individual interpretation, so I wanted to see what the most people had interpreted the rules to mean.

Thanks

[tescoapp]

if you going commercial its best to not include it in your PIC time because later on you will just have to rip it all out. Most logbooks will have a spare column label it PICUS and keep a running total of it.

When it comes to license or rating issue you can add it to the PIC if allowed and declared that.

After you are flying commercially nobody wants to know about PICUS away from ATPL issue. if you have added it in you end up having to go back and stripping it all out later.

BTW I have zero hours logged as PICUS, when doing single pilot stuff I logged it all as dual and once multi crew if I haven't signed the tech log as PIC its been logged as co-pilot.

[PelicanSquawk]

Ahh OK... this is what I meant by it being confusing and unclear. So I log all my time in a jeppson professional log book, which apparently adhears to EASA standards... and there is no PICUS column. In the front it says to add PICUS into the PIC column and note PIC(US) in the comments column. Ultimately I guess it wont matter, as it is 2 hours 25 minutes, and in the grand scheme of things I don't think any one will care either way? In any case I will ensure that whatever PIC minimums I need I will be over by that amount just to be sure.

[tescoapp]

Your log book is for logging the different amounts for your own hours. Its yours and how you do it is up to you. The minimum requirements are actually quiet broad how you do it. After ATPL issue then all the little extras are finished with.

Now that's the legal side of things.

What company's then want when you apply for jobs is entirely up to them.

They may want JAR 25 time, jet, turboprop, multi crew, IFR basically they seem to create a different profile for every job.

If you lump everything in together your a bit stuffed later on. Everything separate and add together when required and its only a one off small calculation and no tipex is required and your log book totals equal what your CV says.

PIC is very important and they only want true PIC time. This only really kicks in after your go left seat which is usually years after it seemed like a good idea to lump in the PICUS. Then you have to correct things so the log book shows the true PIC total.

That jepps pro log book has a few extra columns just log it in one of them separately. Get the person to sign the remarks column that is PIC. When you come to CPL and ATPL issue just add it to the PIC column when declaring hours. IT makes life easier for the people checking the application as well because your only allowed certain amounts of it and they can quickly see what you have done.

This logging seems all very important when you have double digit hours. And then when you hit the license required markers its cause for celebration (quite rightly so) after your working and your doing 4 sectors a day and your doing 2 PPL courses a month of hours it becomes a huge pain especially when you miss a few days/weeks and your looking at having to do 3/4 pages of log book to catch up. This is where the electronic log book comes into play. A couple of clicks and everything gets downloaded, night time is worked out automatically and when some one asks for a break down of hours it takes 10 mins to pull the different totals out for aircraft types and status.

[PelicanSquawk]

OK thanks tescoapp, all makes sense. I actually have an electronic copy also, which I've started logging in, to then be transferred to my paper copy, so that it remains neat, and so I can run specific reports.

[Aero Mad]

Apologies for re-opening an old thread but I've searched the forums without success so far. I hold a LAPL (A). When I undertake a recency check (not a formal CAA flight test) with the CFI on my non-equity group, do I log this time as PIC or PICus?

[Duchess_Driver]

No, and I should really add neither.

P1/S or PICUS is for a U.K. CAA flight test only. Many CAs outside the UK frown upon this at PPL level. Whilst it is an acceptable practice as far as the uK are concerned I should point out that CAP804 is a U.K. document for reference only and is not currently updated nor EASA law.

Furhermore, when you do your recency check who signs the tech-log? If it is your CFI then it should be them that logs P1 and you U/T. There is no such thing as P2 or Co-Pilot for single pilot operations- and the only time there are considered two crew in those circumstances is when it’s an instructional flight and the other guy is the examiner/instructor.

However, it’s your logbook.....the only time it may be an issue is if claiming P1 time for CPL.

[Sam Rutherford]

Does it really matter? The % of your hours that might/could be PICus is so small as to be irrelevant I would have thought.

[Parson]

If they happen to be MEP hours, then every little (P1) helps.....

[meleagertoo]

PICUS is only really of use in the paperwork exercise of accumulating enough fudged P1 hours as an employed Co-pilot (who can normally only ever log P2) but needs x00hrs "P1" to gain his ATPL

The fudge is so blatant because some (UK only, I hasten to add) companies have an "arrangement" with the CAA that allows cojos to write every handling sector as PICUS, a grotesque misuse of a facility that is very useful correctly used.

The correct way to operate PICUS is long established. Cojo asks Capt at briefing time if he can operate PICUS. If Capt agrees the cojo takes on all P1 duties inc briefing and makes all the decisions that day regarding fuel, loading, weather, operational decisions without needing to be significantly over-ridden by the Capt. In fact, he is expected to act throughout as de-facto Captain - hence the name, Pilot in Command Under Supervision. The Capt, if happy with the P2's performance, then signs his logbook authorising the PICUS time. This concept can have no connection whatsoever with PF or PNF, who manipulates the controls is nothing to do with who makes the command decisions - the fundamental conceptual error in the common UK misuse of this procedure.

This devlops vital captaincy skills in copilots preparing them for their command course and exposes them to real decision making and responsibilities of all sorts and from many different (Captain's) points of view. It naturally develops discussion points during the shift which are a big part of learning the job.
The net result is of course a skill in the cojo previously called "A********p" which is now a swear word and never to be uttered in the environment of "modern" and especially lo-co airlines where the job is little more than an actor following a script verbatim and points of view or interpretations of events is considered dangerous and destabilising...
Thus the accumulated decades, if not centuries of wisdom and experience of the entire Captain's cadre is effectively denied to the copilots who instead are fed an unsullied, totally controlled company-developed diet of magenta lines and diktat from manuals and management alone.
Result? Cojos who often resent any input from their Captains as they believe themselves equally skilled as they know the manuals and mouth-music just as well if not better and tend to become automatic unthinking reactors rather than decision makers.

Progress it ain't.

Rant over!

[Parson]

Any MEP P1 hours you can scrape together (by hook or by crook) could be useful in future if going down the instructing route.

[granicar]

In Easa's Part-FCL search for PICUS (you'll get the exact same results in AMC+GM)."Pilot-in-command under supervision" (PICUS) means a co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command.
FCL.035 Crediting of flight time and theoretical knowledge: Flight time as co-pilot or PICUS. Unless otherwise determined in this Part, the holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot or PICUS, is entitled to be credited with all of the co-pilot time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence. Logging of time - PIC flight time: a co-pilot acting as PICUS on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or as required by operational requirements provided that such PICUS time is countersigned by the PIC; PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptableto the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required. Format of the record:When an aircraft carries two or more pilots as members of the operating crew, one of them shall, before the flight commences, be designated by the operator as the aircraft PIC, according to operational requirements, who may delegate the conduct of the flight to another suitably qualified pilot. All flying carried out as PIC is entered in the logbook as ‘PIC’. A pilot flying as ‘PICUS’ or ‘SPIC’ enters flying time as ‘PIC’ but all such entries are to be certified by the PIC or FI in the ‘Remarks’ column of the logbook. Notes on recording of flight time: column 10: pilot function time: (i) enter flight time as PIC, SPIC and PICUS as PIC; (ii) all time recorded as SPIC or PICUS is countersigned by the aircraft PIC/FI in the ‘remarks’ (column 12); column 12: the ‘remarks’ column may be used to record details of the flight at the holder’s discretion. The following entries, however, should always be made: signature of PIC if the pilot is recording flight time as SPIC or PICUS;

Basically:
SINGLE PILOT:
- for someone to be under instruction (and to put in hours as instructor onthe other side), you have to be under training regime (training records, programme, etc.)
- when you have an official check, you are basically fyling as PIC, but the official PIC is the examiner - hence, you are the PICUS (you are acting as PIC)

MULTI PILOT:
- instruction - look the paragraph above
- dual: one is PIC other SIC, the SIC is not performing as PIC
- PICUS: the SIC is acting as PIC, and the PIC is not "interfering" with PIC-ing of the SIC.

BONUS:
- SPIC: when you are under instruction, but the instructor lets you to act as PIC.

[Aviation12345]

Hello guys ,
can anyone help me with this , so picus is logged in my logbook under pic hours , with the pic signing , now I’m a captain , and the airline I want to apply to , are asking for 2000 hours pic , I have 2000 but with picus included , am I eligible to apply ? Or should I deduct the picus time

[rudestuff]

Hello guys ,
can anyone help me with this , so picus is logged in my logbook under pic hours , with the pic signing , now I’m a captain , and the airline I want to apply to , are asking for 2000 hours pic , I have 2000 but with picus included , am I eligible to apply ? Or should I deduct the picus time
Deduct them. PIC/US exists only to enable someone with low PIC hours get an ATPL. Most CPLs have at least 100 so might need 150 although an MPL might need up to 500.

[klester79]

PICus (Pilot in Command under Supervision) time refers to flight time during which a pilot is acting as the pilot in command but is under the supervision of a qualified pilot who is also on board. Here are some tips for correctly logging PICus time:


Be aware of the regulations: Different aviation authorities may have different regulations regarding how PICus time should be logged. For example, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in the United States allows pilots to log PICus time, but only if the pilot under supervision is the sole manipulator of the controls for the entire flight.

Make sure the supervising pilot is qualified: The supervising pilot should be fully qualified to act as a pilot in command for the flight, and should be able to provide guidance and instruction to the pilot under supervision.

Log the flight as PICus time: When filling out your logbook or flight record, be sure to clearly indicate that the flight was conducted under the supervision of a qualified pilot and that you were acting as the pilot in command. You may also want to note the name and qualifications of the supervising pilot.

Record the flight details: As with any other flight, be sure to record the date, aircraft type, route, and other relevant details of the flight when logging PICus time.

Keep your logbook up-to-date: It's important to keep your logbook or flight record up-to-date and accurate, especially when logging PICus time. This will help ensure that you have a complete and accurate record of your flight experience, which may be required for future certification or employment opportunities.

[Whopity]

The log book is a personal document, how you fill it in and what you put in it is up to the holder. In the UK the ANO Article 228 details what you must legally record, so long as you have met that requirement you can do whatever else you like.
If you are PIS the Examiner is PIC. You log your operating capacity as PIS or PICUS which requires the Examiner to endorse it.
CAP 804 Section 1 Part E Para 9

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1143x218/clip_20_2a0ccb45460cbd4629825f9e7f5c0c1d24acae96.jpg