Brexit and UK licences

[Ces96]

Hi all,

I saw this PDF on the website of EASA by searching "brexit".
Had you ever heard of this ? Would it mean that all ATPL licences recently taken in UK would be invalid in EU states ?

Thanks a lot

[rudestuff]

No.

EASA has no power to revoke licences. World aviation is regulated by the ICAO. There are 192 ICAO member states, and EASA is not on the list. EASA does not issue licences, it is merely a club. They set standards higher than ICAO, and members agree to recognize each other’s licences as they would their own. The only thing that EASA can do is refuse to recognize a CAA licence as an EASA licence. Member states are required by the Chicago convention to recognize ICAO licences, EASA or not.

As long as you are flying a G-registered aircraft, a CAA licence is valid anywhere in the world, including Europe.

[BillieBob]

World aviation is regulated by the ICAONot true. ICAO produces Standards and Recommended Practices from which individual member states develop legislation. EASA is in a rather strange position, being neither an ICAO member state nor a regulator but simply a rule maker.

Post Brexit, a UK-issued licence will be valid to fly a UK registered aircraft anywhere in the EU in exactly the same way that, for example, an FAA licence is valid to fly a US registered aircraft. Since a UK-based operator will not be "established or residing in the Community", there will no requirement to hold an EASA licence. The difference is that a UK-issued licence will not be valid to fly non-UK registered aircraft.

It is also worth considering that a UK-issued LAPL, being a sub-ICAO licence, may not be valid outside the UK after Brexit. The main reason to hold an LAPL is the less stringent medical requirements and, given the self-declaration process for a UK PPL medical combined with the inevitable removal of the distinction between EASA and Annex II aircraft, we will probably see the LAPL disappear.

[Minotaur12]

Not true. ICAO produces Standards and Recommended Practices from which individual member states develop legislation. EASA is in a rather strange position, being neither an ICAO member state nor a regulator but simply a rule maker.

Post Brexit, a UK-issued licence will be valid to fly a UK registered aircraft anywhere in the EU in exactly the same way that, for example, an FAA licence is valid to fly a US registered aircraft. Since a UK-based operator will not be "established or residing in the Community", there will no requirement to hold an EASA licence. The difference is that a UK-issued licence will not be valid to fly non-UK registered aircraft.

It is also worth considering that a UK-issued LAPL, being a sub-ICAO licence, may not be valid outside the UK after Brexit. The main reason to hold an LAPL is the less stringent medical requirements and, given the self-declaration process for a UK PPL medical combined with the inevitable removal of the distinction between EASA and Annex II aircraft, we will probably see the LAPL disappear.


HI Billie Bob,
I find this a little concerning as someone who is about to go through an integrated ATPL course with a well established English school - does this mean I won't be able to go and work for a European carrier coming out the other end of it? do you think it would be better to get an EASA based licence from say FTE Jerez for the ability to work in many more places or do you think that nothing much will change in this industry?

Regards

[ersa]

Just get the U.K. licence and then do a state of license change with Ireland

[BillieBob]

....does this mean I won't be able to go and work for a European carrier coming out the other end of it?It depends entirely on the final decision on Brexit. If the UK maintains some agreed position of membership/compliance such as that 'enjoyed' by Norway, Iceland and Switzerland then nothing will change. However, if the final decision is to cut all ties with EASA, the UK becomes a "third country", just like the US. If there is a transition period, this would be the time to transfer your state of licence issue but bear in mind the "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" and it is still possible that we will reach the so-called cliff edge on 31 March 2019. This being the case, there is now less than 11 months to be certain of obtaining an EASA licence with a UK-approved ATO.

However, IMHO the chances of the 'cliff edge' scenario are about the same as Brexit being entirely abandoned and it is more likely that some weasel-worded compromise will be reached. The whole Brexit farce will have cost billions and the UK will have gained nothing but lost its seat at the decision-making table.

[paco]

My money's on brexit not happening at all...

[ersa]

My money's on brexit not happening at all...

It will happen in name only

[paco]

Yeah, if they were serious it could have been done and dusted ages ago.

[Minotaur12]

thanks for giving me some confidence back in that one guys!! i have had 24 hours of slight turmoil over this one especially as its gonna cost £100k to get a licence which might not be worth so much!!!

Would anybody advise going to FTE Jerez for an EASA licence still or needn't I worry so much?

[Ces96]

And what about the ATPL theory ?
I'm currently doing it in England and I have nearly finished, do you think I would still be able to do the CPL/IR in another country which issues EASA licenses ?

[paco]

CES - yes, you will.Nothing's going to happen that soon....

[ComeFlyWithB]

I’m about to start my ATPL with Bartolini Air (Poland) in the next month or two, will Brexit cause any complications for this ?

I also plan on completing the CPL-ME/IR course with them as-well late next year / 2020 Will Brexit cause problems regarding licensing or even training ? Will I have a Uk licences given my Medical was undertaken here or would I be better having the polish authorities issue my licenses ? However would that then cause problems job wise ? Quite confused with it.

[paco]

What's the confusion - that's future pain! :) Until UK leaves EASA, no problem. If it does, transfer your licence to an EASA state. it's not like you won't get plemty of warning.

[VinRouge]

thanks for giving me some confidence back in that one guys!! i have had 24 hours of slight turmoil over this one especially as its gonna cost £100k to get a licence which might not be worth so much!!!

Would anybody advise going to FTE Jerez for an EASA licence still or needn't I worry so much?

Depends upon whether you are more likely to work for a UK or a European AOC I suspect.

[superflanker]

Any news on this?
Those of us who are doing our ATPL exams under UK CAA are a bit concerned that suddenly those exams are no longer valid.

[superflanker]

How do you know this is the case? Worrying if true
I don't know if this is what's going to happen, I'm just assuming the worst case scenario.

[superflanker]

The thing is, I have only 4 more exams to do, wich I will probably have passed by the end of this year. My fear is that in the middle of my IR training, those exams will no longer by EASA compliant!

[superflanker]

Well, let's hope they are reasonable.
If I had to do the 14 exams again I would commit suicide. :ooh:

[superflanker]

It would be worse for those pilots working on an european airline with an UK license...

[tescoapp]

Its actually relatively easy and sorted with 300 euros to the Irish CAA after filling out 2 forms if you are flying for an EU airline with a UK lic. You can even now get a UK national license when you transfer.

I suspect they will not be reasonable and if you are caught in the middle of it all you in for a world of pain.

I say this as a UK national that supports exit. And it won't be the UK that causes the problems.

[superflanker]

I suspect they will not be reasonable and if you are caught in the middle of it all you in for a world of pain.
I say this as a UK national that supports exit. And it won't be the UK that causes the problems.

Maybe your point of view is a little skewed...

[tescoapp]

UK has no say what EASA will do after exit or what they will accept

[superflanker]

There is a lot of people that takes the exams under the UK CAA. Ingoring that all this people got his exams done under an EASA member (at that moment at least) would be terrible.
The "window" solution sounds like the most probable outcome to me.

[tescoapp]

Yes with the approval of their CAA's

You can do what you want but not having an escape route is not a wise idea with anything to do with aviation.

Personally I would be talking to Irish CAA and asking the question if you could transfer your exam results and medical etc over to them. What you don't want to happen is to be trapped in the middle of training and not in the system you need.

We don't do probable outcomes in commercial aviation. Either its going to be a safe landing or its a go-around.

[tescoapp]

To be honest the country differences hasn't really changed much, there are still pages of country differences between the different members. RT is still different as well.

This is more fundamental, its at the whim of people that consider political principle more important than an individuals circumstances. All you will be is collateral damage.

[superflanker]

Yeah like the quadrant system coming in, I started my exams before Quadrant and then it came in all of a sudden and I had to adapt to the new system, had I known quadrant was coming in and only being applied to the UK you bet I would not have done my exams under the UK CAA

The rule makers can do as they please and everyone just has to accept it so in this case I agree that sounds like a good idea to prepare for the worst and see if you can get your results transfered I may look into that when i'm done my exams

I can't agree, it's a different scenario. I'ts like if you have done all 14 exams before Quadrant, and when you start your ME-IR training the CAA tells you "Sorry, there is a new system going on, you will have to sit all exams again".

In fact, the most reasonable would be: if you get your ground exams certificate when the UK is still on EASA, that certificate will remain valid for any EASA country.

I agree with you in the idea of transfering the results to another CAA (this would solve everything), but I never heard this could be done. Perhaps someone can help with this query?

[redsnail]

Yes, this Brexit thing is a bloody nightmare.
I live in the UK, hold an EASA ATPL issued by the UK CAA. So far so good.
I fly a Portuguese reg aircraft, and do my recurrents in the US at Flight Safety.
Many of my colleagues have UK ATPLs as the examiners in the US have authority for a few NAAs (UK, Belgian, French, German...)
I don't know if they have Irish rights. :/
Yes, these questions are in the office....

It's just a bloody mess.

[tescoapp]

I don't have a clue about transferring, my exams were done under JAR.

It will be dependant of the CAA's opinion who your transferring to. Again under EASA there is a huge variation on what CAA's will allow. I would suspect that you have zero chance with French or German CAA's. The Irish though seem to have run a common sense approach for a number of years which is why I suggested them. I would email them and see what they say. The worst ting they can say is no. I would like to expect all courses complete before the exit date would remain valid but the stakeholders statement currently doesn't imply that they will be. You won't be the only one in the same situation.

The sooner you start asking the questions the sooner a solution can be found. A solution before the exit date which you have to take as 29th March next year will be a lot less complicated than one after. Also remember there will be a run on people doing this and it does take time to do the SOLI transfer of medical records and license information and you have potentially the whole of Easyjet with UK licenses going to do the same thing.

[superflanker]

I've been sending a barrage of emails: to the spanish CAA (AESA), to the IAA, and to CATS (my ground school).
The only answer I got was from this last one: "Your exams with be valid in any EASA approved country. ".

I've been also reading about brexit, and apparently there is a "transition period" aranged between UK and EU that lasts to december 2020. I don't know what this period i'ts totally ignored in the EASA document.

I will soon become an international law expert :}

[tescoapp]

There is nothing so far confirmed a Transition period has been talked about but until its legally binding and approved by both sides I wouldn't bet on it.

Also don't touch the Spanish CAA with a poo pole, everything takes months to sort out and many many brick walls to bang your head against also its one of the expensive authorities. I have had several mates transfer away from them.

CATS don't have a clue either what's going to happen same as the rest of us. They have to say that other wise nobody in their right mind would start training with them or any other UK approved provider for the next year if the person intends to use their license in euroland.

[superflanker]

Also don't touch the Spanish CAA with a poo pole, everything takes months to sort out and many many brick walls to bang your head against

Believe me, I know this very well... but since I will do my practical training here, I got no choice.

[tescoapp]

you doing your practical training in Spain?

[superflanker]

you doing your practical training in Spain?
Yes I live here, I'm hour building and when I finish my ATPLs I will start my ME-IR and CPL

Edit: hopefully

[tescoapp]

I would get the exams and Cpl course out the way ASAP and get the CPL issued before 29th March 2019. Which point the ATPL exams will just be a time limit on your records. Then MEP and IR will just be additional ratings on the CPL and there will be no time pressure to complete them apart from the normal IR time limit.

[superflanker]

I think that for the MEIR they will ask for the ATPL exams passes (even if you have a CPL), since you can have the CPL with only the CPL exams (no instrumental training).

[tescoapp]

No the exam credits are held on the CPL as active for a given period. Well that's the way it works at other CAA's. But you have a point the Spanish may have a different view.

There is a difference between CPL issue and adding ratings. IN theory you could transfer to IAA as soon as you have the CPL in your hand. Personally that's what I would do. MEP and IR ratings can be done in any member state because they are licnese additions.

When the transfer goes through there is no mention where you did the exams just when they were completed.

[superflanker]

Not a bad idea... CPL can be done in one month.

[ROMEOVICTOR]

There is nothing so far confirmed a Transition period has been talked about but until its legally binding and approved by both sides I wouldn't bet on it.<br /><br />Also don't touch the Spanish CAA with a poo pole, everything takes months to sort out and many many brick walls to bang your head against also its one of the expensive authorities. I have had several mates transfer away from them.<br /><br />CATS don't have a clue either what's going to happen same as the rest of us. They have to say that other wise nobody in their right mind would start training with them or any other UK approved provider for the next year if the person intends to use their license in euroland.
Sorry but this is completely false! I am transfering my licence from the UK CAA to the Spanish CAA and is the Brits who are delaying the process. It take several weeks to get a response from the UK CAA whereas if I sent an email to the Spanish CAA they reply me in a few minutes. The UK CAA is currently working in 14 working days turnover... (even the Spanish are asking me what is going on).

[superflanker]

Update:
I got answers from the IAA and EASA.

IAA: We don't know anything yet, EASA will give us instructions for this.
EASA: The european commission is on negotiations, EASA is no party to this negotiations. We don't know.

Both have seemed to ignore that the exam related question is more a legal issue than anything related to brexit negotiations.

[paco]

"or any other UK approved provider ....."

Some schools already have arrangements outside UK.....

phil

[superflanker]

"or any other UK approved provider ....."

Some schools already have arrangements outside UK.....

phil
What do you mean paco?

[paco]

I mean that we can work through one of our European partners already. I don't see a problem with BREXIT as yet, as there would have to be transition arrangements for those already studying, but just in case....

[superflanker]

I mean that we can work through one of our European partners already. I don't see a problem with BREXIT as yet, as there would have to be transition arrangements for those already studying, but just in case....
Hopefully there are. Buy I can't see that transition agreements anywhere yet, and the deadline it's in ten months...

[paco]

That's why we will have continuity with an alternative......

[Denti]

I mean that we can work through one of our European partners already. I don't see a problem with BREXIT as yet, as there would have to be transition arrangements for those already studying, but just in case....
Firstly, why would there have to be those transition agreements? And secondly, even if those are agreed upon, they will only come into force if there is an orderly brexit deal, which means that the irish border has to be sorted out and there will be a full separation agreement, as that is a prerequisite for anything else.

[superflanker]

That's why we will have continuity with an alternative......
Sadly, this does not solve the issues of who already have taken an exam :{

[superflanker]

Firstly, why would there have to be those transition agreements? And secondly, even if those are agreed upon, they will only come into force if there is an orderly brexit deal, which means that the irish border has to be sorted out and there will be a full separation agreement, as that is a prerequisite for anything else.

Because if there is no agreements, the entire UK sky would be paralized. And the hundreds or thousands of UK pilots woriking in Europe could not fly.
So yes, this can of course happen (this is the reason why I am worried), but when there is so much money at stake, I tend to think that there are also chances that the whole thing will be resolved some way. Specially if no one benefits from this situation.

[paco]

With no agreements, all British TK providers will be out of business as well, unless they just do UK licences.

[superflanker]

I have been reading the PART FCL document. If we strictly hold on to this document, our exams should be fine (if we complete them before 30 march 2019).

(1) Applicants shall take the entire set of theoretical knowledge examinations for a specific licence or rating under the responsibility of one Member State.

- We would in fact have taken all the exams under the responsibility of one Member State.

(c) Validity period ... (too long to put it here)

But this validity period does not mention anything regarding a member state that was in EASA and now it's not (of course, as nobody could predict what is happening)
But, as usual, I expect that the NAAs will put more problems than solutions, and that they will make their own interpretation of the law.

[tescoapp]

I wouldn't put money on them being accepted for license issue. License in your hand is a different situation.

They are making it up as they go along. Nothing in the EU regulations was written with a member being able to escape in mind.

Also as well come the day there is going to be loads of very pissed off people scurrying around trying to figure out what the hell to do. A wannbies exams is going to be very low down on their list when the summer season is destroyed for tourists in the med. To be honest this not being sorted now is going to cause huge issues in that respect what ever happens.

Flights from and too the UK are very profitable and are what keep more than a few operators out of bankruptcy.

I would put maximum effort into getting them passed ASAP and your CPL in your hand. After that its just a valid date in your license records.

I don't have a clue what to recommend in relation to when to do the IR, Mty gut instinct is that as soon as the day passes and no deal is done then they might sort something sensible out. If they don't and start on another round of call my bluff I suspect it will be worth delaying getting the IR.

[superflanker]

I wouldn't put money on them being accepted for license issue. License in your hand is a different situation.

I would put maximum effort into getting them passed ASAP and your CPL in your hand. After that its just a valid date in your license records.


Hopefully, but i am not sure about this. You would be surprised about the spanish NAA and the things that they can ask you for. I can perfectly imagine having a valid CPL license and they asking me to retake the exams in order to get the IR.
But as you said, nobody knows, maybe your aproach is the best solution right now. In a few months who knows.

[tescoapp]

I have seen what people have gone through to get type ratings put on there Spanish licenses. In one case it took so long that they had to go and do the LST and circuits again. And there was no change in the paper work during the whole exercise. But to be fair I have seen someone go through nearly the same thing with the UK caa using a German Sim and TRE for a type rating.

What ever the above posters says every CAA is very happy and good bring pilots onto their books for a fee, They all seem to cause issues when transferring out. Germany its impossible apparently won't release medical records. When I transferred mine away from the UK out of 5 of us mine was the first back from UK, Sweden, France, Spain and Greece. I was 7 weeks and the worst was Greece at over 14 weeks. There was mistakes in my records as well showing I had been flying without a valid rating for over a year. Thankfully the Local CAA took the signature on the back of the license and we agreed not to put the old rating on the license. The other guys had similar "mistakes" I presume if I had to get it corrected it would have been another 7 weeks. So I am no fan of the UK CAA either.

So I agree you can only "try" and out smart them but its not guaranteed. You may even get the IR issued no problems then when it comes to get an ATPL issued there is a problem. Hence me suggesting after you get your CPL etc issued you transfer again to the Irish CAA. The more hops then less paper work travels with you. Irish will only get your medical records and a transcript of your valid dates and won't see any paper work from your CPL issue.

This is all personal theory of mine how to play it. I don't have a clue what's going to happen and nobody else does either. Its just how I would play it in your situation.

[BONES_]

You may even get the IR issued no problems then when it comes to get an ATPL issued there is a problem.

Very good point, I didn’t think of that!

Someone could easily pass all 14 exams in the UK, obtain a Spanish CPL ME/IR (‘frozen ATPL’) and find a job say at Vueling or Volotea... Great you might say; however few years down the line (say in 3-4 years time), on achieving all the required hours/experience to apply for the full ATPL (to ‘unfreeze’ it), the 14 theoretical exams done in the UK may no longer be valid because as of 30th March 2019 would be a third party Country?!

I hope to be wrong because this could literally shaft many...

Some schools already have arrangements outside UK.....

Indeed! For example CAE Oxford have arrangements so that their students can obtain a licence issued by the UK CAA or Belgian CAA or Spanish Authority. No doubts the other ‘big 2’ have got a similar way out

[superflanker]

Someone could easily pass all 14 exams in the UK, obtain a Spanish CPL ME/IR (‘frozen ATPL’) and find a job say at Vueling or Volotea... Great you might say; however few years down the line (say in 3-4 years time), on achieving all the required hours/experience to apply for the full ATPL (to ‘unfreeze’ it), the 14 theoretical exams done in the UK may no longer be valid because as of 30th March 2019 would be a third party Country?!

I hope to be wrong because this could literally shaft many...

I think this is quite unlikely. If they do this, they would have to call anyone wich has an UK ATPL exam credit in their license to tell them that they have to resit all exams. They can't just demand to repeat the exams only to some people.

[BONES_]

I think this is quite unlikely. If they do this, they would have to call anyone wich has an UK ATPL exam credit [...]

I agree, it would be a distater. But remember this mess is so complicated and it could lead to very nasty consequences (hopefully not); especially if no transition period is agreed (ie we would go down the cliff!)

Remember NAAs aren’t particularly interested where the 14 exams have been done, but they’ll certainly check COMPLIANCE, MARKS and WHEN. Some NAA even state on the actual licence that ATPL examination credits have been passed. If someone has achieved an EASA licence before 30th March 2019 (say a Spainish or Irish one issued with UK theory), that’s totally academic: It’s still a full EASA licence. It would be irrelevant where all the various requirements have been satisfied because all various tests, LSTs/LPCs would have been EASA compliant.

As someone said above licence in your hand is a different situation. However, when coming to upgrading to ATPL you’d have to go through effectively the same process of applying for a new licence: and that means re-checking COMPLIANCE, MARKS and more critically this time WHEN the 14 exams have been passed. And that could be a very grey area.

Don’t get me wrong, i’m not trying to shoot you down. I do sincerely hope common sense prevail as too much for many is at stake here; however considering the caliber of modern politicians and the very limited time left, i’m not very confident... unless of course either the UK make a step back or the EU some sort of concession.

This is a situation where people should plan very carefully and “hope for the best but plan for the worse”...

[Reverserbucket]

For example CAE Oxford have arrangements so that their students can obtain a licence issued by the UK CAA or Belgian CAA or Spanish Authority. No doubts the other ‘big 2’ have got a similar way out
CAE always had ATO approvals from other States though and I don't think this facility is Brexit related - used to be a function of where you started training and therefore place of medical issue. Regarding TK Credits, examination result notifications explicitly state that they are pertinent to 'EASA Part - FCL' as well as the licence type the examination was for. I can't see that this could be contested provided the UK was an EASA member at the time of the credit.

[superflanker]

Regarding TK Credits, examination result notifications explicitly state that they are pertinent to 'EASA Part - FCL' as well as the licence type the examination was for. I can't see that this could be contested provided the UK was an EASA member at the time of the credit.

This would be the most reasonable thing. But up until now, nobody (NAAs, EASA, EU council, etc.) has confirmed this.

[paco]

The latest I have from the CAA and EASA is to expect business as usual - " there is contingency planning going on in the background but common sense is expected still to prevail – at least in aviation"

phil

[superflanker]

I have good news on this one.
We and some fellow students sent an email to The Mobility And Transport of the EU Commission department a month ago. We recieved the answer and they tell us this:

"We had to get the answer cleared with our legal experts [...] After discussing your case with the relevant experts on our side, we would conclude that if all the theory exams have been completed before the withdrawal date and if the change to another ATO in an EU state is done before the withdrawal date, you will retain your credit for those theory exams for the normal duration of 3 years and may thus complete your training in this other EU Member State.[...]
This answer is without prejudice to any specific provisions that may be included in the Withdrawal Agreement that may be concluded between the UK and the EU, as well as any subsequent arrangement(s) that may entered into. While the content of such agreements remains uncertain all persons concerned are advised to base their decisions on the existing legislation to minimise the chance of disruptions to trainings."

So, of course this email it's not legally binding, but I assume this is the way EU would work if the worst situation of no-deal occurs.

I have to say I'm very hapy and thankfull that the EU commision helped us with this issue, and that they took the time to go through this thoughtfully, revising the case with their legal experts.

[Ces96]

Thank you for these news !

[BONES_]

Superflanker, thanks for your post.

At least both EASA and the EU Commission are aware of this problem - hopefully a sensible solution that satisfies all parties can be found soon!

Meanwhile, the UK CAA has published this on their website (sorry guys, i’m a newbee and can’t post links yet!):

To help organisations with their own planning for EU exit, we have listed the assumptions that we used to develop our approach for a potential non-negotiated withdrawal from the EU in March 2019.

These assumptions are not representative of the CAA’s view of the most likely, or desirable, outcome of negotiations and do not reflect Government policy, but allow us as a responsible regulator to prepare for all possible scenarios. In a non-negotiated outcome at March 2019, we have assumed that:

The UK leaves the EU at 11 pm on 29 March 2019.
Through the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018, the UK adopts all European aviation laws at the point of exit. Changes will be made to ensure those laws are legally operable.
The UK continues to mirror EU aviation regulations for at least a two year period.
The UK withdraws completely from the EASA system in March 2019, meaning that the CAA will need to make arrangements to fulfil regulatory functions without having EASA as a technical agent and without having access to EASA and EU-level capabilities.
The UK is no longer included in EU-level Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreements.
There is no mutual recognition agreement between the EU and the UK for aviation licences, approvals and certificates.
UK-issued EASA licences and approvals are no longer recognised in the EU post-EU exit.
The EU treats UK airlines as Third Country Operators.
All licences issued by the CAA under EU legislation, and all type approval certificates and third country approvals issued by EASAunder EU legislation, will continue to have validity under UK law, if they were effective immediately before exit day.
The UK minimises additional requirements for licences, approvals and certificates from EU aviation and aerospace companies providing services and goods in the UK.

Hopefully all of this can be avoided, really hope so!

[Zulfikar Bektas]

Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone could give me an example on how hard the exams are? Is the maths and stuff on university level or lower?