How to Negotiate

[Mill Worker]

This video is about buying cars so whenever he mentions a car just mentally insert CoS, enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8VYNFzmJIQ

[controlledrest]

The AOA must make it explicitly clear to the company and the members that no agreement will be presented to the membership for consideration which would cost any pilot $, housing, COS to implement.

The company received legal advice that they couldn't change housing without agreement. Even though the company calls housing a 'policy', it has been in place for so long that in effect it is a COS.

The company will now be waiting for enough C Scalers to vote for a deal which would see an improvement to HKPA at the expense of the B Scale housing package. The company is waiting for 50 + 1. It must be made clear that this will not be allowed to work.

The company will have to increase HKPA anyway as the turnover of SOs and FOs is costing them too much. Recruitment is at a critical point. We have staff quitting for been told to meet impossible targets and those recruits who do show up have been failing the SIM check (so the SIM check has been made easier).

[main_dog]

The company received legal advice that they couldn't change housing without agreement.


Source? That would be an important bit of info if it were confirmed.

[poydras]

In the mean time an EY330 skipper got hired as FO at UAL.

One should ask why 99% of the ex AA guys went back. Some were here on the left seat as well.

Think about this way: every time you are at despatch, about to go to work or returning from it, AT, DP etc. come down the stairs with 5-6 body builders looking guys heavily armed and take money out of your pockets.

[Captain Dart]

Hold the line.

https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/04/30/emirates-is-storing-over-45-planes-in-the-next-few-months/

[Frogman1484]

Hold the line.

https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/04/30/emirates-is-storing-over-45-planes-in-the-next-few-months/

This is what happenes when you treat your pliots like crap...they leave and they tell their friends not to join!!!

Their 150 pilots shortage will not be sorted out until they sort the managgment out. Same as CX more and more will leave!

[Apple Tree Yard]

Anna. I just landed from a European port. Thought you might like to know, both FO's leaving. SO also leaving as soon as he has his QF position confirmed. For your accounting purposes, that makes 11 pilots I have flown with in the month of April that confirmed to me that they are leaving. I am one (1) Captain, and 11 random crew over the month are going. Not at some nebulous point in the future, but imminently. All experienced, and even the relatively inexperienced SO says he can't wait to get away from here. You and your management seem to be living in "LaLaLand". I suggest you use these negotiations to satisfy the career expectations of ALL your crew, or that 11 will seem a drop in the ocean by the end of next year.

[Apple Tree Yard]

...and btw, the SO told me that he "would rather drink cyanide than have drinks with you or your kind".... quote.

[Shep69]

Think it's time to go fishin

Or huntin

Or water skiin

Or hikin

Too nice outside to be cooped up in a room with folks not ready to make a deal.

Maybe call back later in the summer and get together then for a howgozit

Or sometime downline when the company is really ready to make a deal.

[main_dog]

Exactly right Shep... perhaps our reps should be strolling into the negotiating room with a cooler, rods and fishing tackle just to send a clearer message.

[Farman Biplane]

I am sure that a “generous and conciliatory” (according to the company propagandist) will be made early on to get them through the hump of crew shortage this summer and have them flop over the line into the new sodomised patterns of the CMP, which they believe will save them through its instant productivity gains. Expect short term sweeteners and no long term structural change.

NO CONCESSIONS, the AOA leverage can only increase over the summer.

[plainpilot11]

yeah. And NO clause 7. We will not sacrifice the ability to go back into CC and TB for ONE STINKING DAY.

[Brokeidiot]

I don’t understand people’s problem with clause 7. It’s the only thing we should be willing to give them for an agreement when we give up CC and TB they are dead anyway and will not give leverage in the future.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Plus the clause 7 only prevented the aoa leaders from organising CC/TB. Couldn't stop if it was put forward by the members

[RAT Management]

This whole negotiation is a front.

The GC will have to sit through it because any walk away early, will be twisted in the media to bash the pilots for being difficult and spoilt brats. It will be the public reason flights are cancelled or orders delayed. It will also be the reason upgrades will not be accelerated and used as a tool to divide and conqour the group. The company is flogging the business situation while it can.

It's all BS.

Nothing will ever change.

If they don't know what we want by now after HPE then what is the point of this sham of a negotiation.

Utter BS. Is all iican say.

They have already said there is no money for us and further reinforced it with an update on the business situation on the first day of negotiations.

If it looks like it! If it smells like it! then it's sure as S@#?… going to taste like it.... So why would you even put your finger in and have a try.....Jesus.....

[Avinthenews]

This is way beyond RPs now, we have to claw back every piece of loose wording that allows CX to basically screw with your life for an entire career. They need to pay every time they juggle your life when they see fit, wether it's short term throwing reserve at you or long term leaving you stuck on a fleet that absolutely sucks and everything in between. As soon as it cost them money they'll stop doing it and perhaps we can have some sort and long term stability and plan a long term future and lifestyle with the ability to move fleets as our age and family change over possibly 30+ years.

It's now or never, we will never be in a position to fix the wrongs done over the past several decades. Some half arsed solution that ends CC will mean a career at CX/KA is truly over, shiny Jets will get them in the door and rusty seniority hand cuffs will keep you here! While the hits will keep coming relentlessly!

[Magnum Ursus]

I can't post a link yet but look up the song "Toes" by the Zac Brown Band. This song seems to fit the situation and how most of us don't really care anymore. Just substitute Cathay for GA and it fits.

This line seems very fitting...

"Adiós and vaya con Dios
Going home now to stay
The senoritas don't care-o when there's no dinero
I've got no money to stay"

[Sea Eggs]

Air France grounds one 787 over union pilot training conflict (http://atwonline.com/labor/air-france-grounds-one-787-over-union-pilot-training-conflict?NL=ATW-04&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_6&utm_rid=CPEN1000000439108&utm_campaign=14668&utm_medium=email&elq2=93039ea0c7354169b6d57a2166171e6d)


Apr 27, 2018 Helen Massy-Beres (http://atwonline.com/author/helen-massy-beresford)

Air France said it would be forced to ground one of its new Boeing 787 aircraft and reduce its flight frequency from Paris to Guangzhou, China over a disagreement with its main pilot union the SNPL about pilot training.

The news comes as Air France is locked in a wider conflict with its unions over pay: the airline group has launched a company-wide staff consultation (http://atwonline.com/labor/air-france-klm-ceo-consults-staff-end-strikes) on its latest pay proposal in a bid to break the deadlock, but three unions have called for a further four days of strike action on May 3, 4, 7 and 8 (http://atwonline.com/labor/air-france-faces-more-pilot-strikes-may), which would bring the total number of days of strike action in recent weeks to 15.

From May 2, the carrier will operate 3X-weekly to Guangzhou from its Charles de Gaulle hub, instead of five, using a Boeing 777 on the route to replace the 787, a spokesman said.

That involves canceling nine flights or 40% of its services over the month, but because the 777 has a larger capacity, equates to only a 17% reduction in seat capacity, the spokesman added.

The airline has made the changes to its schedule for a month initially but needs the SNPL to agree to renew an agreement allowing for 777 instructors to train 787 pilots to ensure more flights and aircraft are not affected.

Helen Massy-Beresford, [email protected]

[Hiro Nakimura]

Just did a Fleet forum. A Greg H came in to talk to us. Apparently he has been helicoptered in to help turn the titanic around.

What a f@#$ing moron. The guy is clueless. He is a small insecure man who can't handle being challenged.

Abandon ship everyone, with an idiot like that in charge there is no hope.

[Shep69]

Not that hard.

Union gives a list of specifics and says here is what we require (which reflects a realistic retroactive inflationary adjustment as well as RPs--although RP-07 is not all that much different than RP-16 and neither are very strong documents). Perhaps add an extra 5% for some wiggle room back down to baseline in pay to 'compromise'. Restoration of 13th month and housing certainty an absolute requirement; without that a non-starter. And probably shore up the 13th month (and some other stuff) in concrete so folks can't be screwed in the future.

Company says 'cannot'

Union says 'well, give us a call when you can'

Then off fishin'

I don't like to name call personally. I believe there have been some grossly poor decisions made, but these decisions made I think were made not understanding the backlash they would create. Or the true damage a 'rolling reserve' scheduling process can do to an airline (where rosters are more placeholders than anything else). There is good reason most majors have 'owned' rosters backfilled with real reserve assets.

IMHO the 'hedging loss' and other chicanery is simply a red herring and ruse. In any case, it's not something we base OUR decision making process around.

IMHO, the company loves to play 'stupid.' IMHO they also like to warp the truth.

Problem is when you do either you can't really figure out if someone really IS stupid or is pretending, or is telling the truth or lying. So this doesn't work that well regardless. And you create a void of trust which cannot be easily fixed.

IMHO they also love the fat chick bait and switch; where they promise and stall to get them through gaps then right back to bizness as usual. Stall, stall, stall.

So absent a concrete yes, it's time to walk away. And go do something fun.

But probably not go to a rigged carnival game. It'll remind you too much of work.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Well said shep69.
They're so used to lying and chicanery that it's their (not so) new baseline. They're unable to negotiate in good faith - they need counseling and therapy to recondition themselves to be honest and forthright.
The irony of this impasse is that they've made otherwise compliant and cooperative employees change our "DNA" as well, and even if/when cc ends, many of us will never answer a 2747 call unless compelled to, or click on an OCN. Ever.
Well done, Swires - you've really screwed it up this time.

[controlledrest]

A place to start: honour the agreed to 25 year housing for non-C Scale.

Next. Increase the C Scale package (at no expense to any other staff) so that existing staff are retained and applicant quality is improved. (Does CAD know that new joiners are failing 528s at record numbers and the selection sim has been made even easier to try to increase recruit numbers?)

[Start Fore]

(Does CAD know that new joiners are failing 528s at record numbers and the selection sim has been made even easier to try to increase recruit numbers?)

Sounds like something the travelling public should be made aware of..

[Freehills]

Just did a Fleet forum. A Greg H came in to talk to us. Apparently he has been helicoptered in to help turn the titanic around.

What a f@#$ing moron. The guy is clueless. He is a small insecure man who can't handle being challenged.

Abandon ship everyone, with an idiot like that in charge there is no hope.

Harsh, but no doubt fair.

[shortly2]

Hiro, neither harsh nor fair. Just a childish rant from you. I found the man intelligent and open. I wish him all the luck in the world dealing with the children that seem to infest the AOA.

[bm330]

Hiro, neither harsh nor fair. Just a childish rant from you. I found the man intelligent and open. I wish him all the luck in the world dealing with the children that seem to infest the AOA.

Don't break your leg climbing down from that pedestal.

GH is just another in a long line of Swire managers. They seem to think they have all the answers yet time after time they prove themselves utterly incapable of understanding the operation, the competition, and most importantly their employees. They refuse to go outside their incestuous circle to actually find credible expertise and insist on merely rearranging the cards over and over expecting that eventually they'll stumble on a solution. It might work in Solitaire but not a way to run a multinational corporation with tens of thousands of employees.

He wants the HKAOA to fold its tent and take what's on offer - more specifically, give up what they're told to give. Modern communications and social media means everyone has access to information instantly and that record doesn't fade with time. No room for half truths and narrative manipulation. CX management thinks we're a bunch of mushrooms living in the dark and eating up the bs they continuously shovel. Most guys understand this and are already on the way out the door.

[letsfly75]

BM probably the best post I’ve read on here this year.

[OK4Wire]

No concessions, please:

Emirates to park 45 aircraft due shortage of pilots. (https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/04/30/emirates-is-storing-over-45-planes-in-the-next-few-months/)

[Farman Biplane]

Sounds like another round of “missed opportunities” for CX.

Imagine if we had a properly manned, motivated and efficiently rostered workforce that could soak up some of the extra traffic that will be in the market!

Tell ‘im he’s dreamin

[mngmt mole]

Tell Greg there will be no concessions from any group of pilots. Further, ALL groups of pilots expect and will hold out for a proper package, one that fulfills broken promises of the past, and makes up for years of abuse and deceit from our management. If there is the slightest hint of anything less being offered, close your briefcases and walk away. Just as hundreds of our pilots are now doing. Either our management respect the value and scarcity of their pilot workforce, or they can plan a pity party with EK management and figure out a place to park all their shiny jets together.

[Sea Eggs]

Air France-KLM CEO to step down after employee pay vote (http://atwonline.com/labor/air-france-klm-ceo-step-down-after-employee-pay-vote?NL=ATW-04&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000000456167&utm_campaign=14746&utm_medium=email&elq2=7065585f37354031b390f856f2daaa4c)May 4, 2018Helen Massy-Beresford (http://atwonline.com/author/helen-massy-beresford)

Air France-KLM CEO Jean-Marc Janaillac will submit his resignation next week after a majority of Air France employees rejected a pay proposal in a staff-wide consultation that had been his high-stakes bid to extract the airline from a costly labor relations crisis.

A series of Air France strikes—13 one-day walkouts so far in recent weeks—have cost the company at least €300 million ($359 million). Janaillac launched the consultation (http://atwonline.com/labor/air-france-klm-ceo-consults-staff-end-strikes) in April in a bid to break the deadlock, saying at the time that he would be “personally accountable for the consequences of the vote”.

The vote period ended today, Friday May 4, with 46,771 staff on French contracts at Air France given the chance to have their say electronically on the multi-year pay proposal management had put forward. With a participation rate of 80.33%, 55.44% of employees voted "no", Air France said.

“As a result, the pay agreement proposal of April 16 ensuring a 7% wage increase over 4 years, including a 2% increase in 2018, is no longer valid,” the company said, and Janaillac is following through on his promise to be personally accountable.

He will meet the Air France-KLM and Air France boards May 9 to submit his resignation, Air France said in a statement, adding that it would be their responsibility to take the appropriate measures to ensure the continuity of the group and Air France during the transition period, with Air France management, and its CEO Franck Terner, overseeing the day-to-day operations of the company.

The "growth pact" (http://atwonline.com/labor/air-france-offers-growth-pact-pay-proposal-bid-end-strikes) proposal, which promised a 7% wage increase over four years as well as individual increases, included scope for adjustments if Air France's financial result was less than €200 million ($246 million) and to apply a reversion clause in case of higher inflation or a negative financial result.

Unions led by the main pilots' union the SNPL have been calling for a bigger pay increase to take into account the preceding years of stagnating salaries.

Janaillac took the helm at Air France-KLM in July 2016 and later that year launched Trust Together (http://atwonline.com/blog/little-trust-goes-long-way), the group’s strategic plan aimed at allowing the Franco-Dutch group to regain the offensive and boost competitiveness in the face of fast-growing rivals. As part of the plan, Janaillac oversaw the creation of new carrier Joon (http://atwonline.com/airframes/air-france-s-joon-operate-28-aircraft-2020) as well as the signature of a wide-ranging north Atlantic joint venture with Virgin Atlantic and Delta Air Lines and partnerships with China Eastern Airlines, Jet Airways in India and Vietnam Airlines.

The results of the vote and the departure of its CEO come on the same day that Air France-KLM reported first-quarter results (http://atwonline.com/airlines/air-france-klm-warns-2018-profit-will-be-hit-strikes-currency-fuel) hit by the strike impact, with unit costs up 2.1% at constant currency, fuel and pension charges and 1.7% of that increase related to the strikes. Operating loss widened to €118 million from a loss of €33 million in the first quarter of 2017, with about €75 million of strike impact, the airline said, while it said its 2018 operating profit would be “notably below” 2017’s because of the financial impact of the strikes, currency fluctuations and a fuel bill €350 million ($419 million) higher than the previous year.

More strikes are planned for May 7 and May 8.

[shortly2]

BM. I agree with a fair bit of what you said. But you missed the point. At my FF I found the maligned gentleman open, frank, encouraging and obviously intelligent. Insecure? Not open to challenge? Moronic? OK he is a bit altitude limited. He took a mountain of flack with generosity. Anyway I completely disagree with the post against which I commented. At the end of the day, do we want to sort the problems out or not? Blithering on about no retreat and no surrender is just a part of a line from a comedy movie. The world is more complex than that. We need both parties in the negotiation/s to be prepared to give a little than maybe we will, both groups, gain a lot. And NO I am not management and YES I have been here a long time and I still like the place, Hong Kong and Cathay.

[bm330]

As long as you, I and everyone else understands, the only career he is worried about is his own. His career is with Swire, not CX. If he thinks that career will be better served by selling out you, I and everyone else, he'll do it in a heartbeat and never loose a wink of sleep.

[CCA]

Shortly2 what fleet are you on?

[kenfoggo]

Shortly2- in what specific areas do you think that the pilots can “gain a lot” in these negotiations?

[raven11]

I wish him all the luck in the world dealing with the children that seem to infest the AOA.

Wow, you sound like someone with a balanced perspective.

I suppose the pilots should just give up and endure another pay cut, after a series of pay cuts and abuses over the past two decades, because to do otherwise would be ungrateful....?

[backtothegrindstone]

Wow, you sound like someone with a balanced perspective.

I suppose the pilots should just give up and endure another pay cut, after a series of pay cuts and abuses over the past two decades, because to do otherwise would be ungrateful....?

so I’m a SO and NO I’m not management.
All I can say is bring on a TA
SO’s will sign it !!!!!
Tired of being the losers here. I don’t see any financial support for SO’s that have there upgrades delayed to 5 years offered ?
Bring it on !!!’

#ttw for the SO’s

[Avinthenews]

so I’m a SO and NO I’m not management.
All I can say is bring on a TA
SO’s will sign it !!!!!
Tired of being the losers here. I don’t see any financial support for SO’s that have there upgrades delayed to 5 years offered ?
Bring it on !!!’

#ttw for the SO’s


I want to get this right, you want something now for the 3-5 years you'll be an S/O and sacrifice the possible improvments that will benifit you for 20-30 years (as in when you're a captain). :ugh:

[backtothegrindstone]

I want to get this right, you want something now for the 3-5 years you'll be an S/O and sacrifice the possible improvments that will benifit you for 20-30 years (as in when you're a captain). :ugh:

wow how naive are you? CX is no longer a long term solution!!! We all know this. Clearly you don’t !!! Weldone ;-)
sign the TA
get a upgrade
get hours
get out !!!!!

Thats the way it will work.
Trust me it will happen and go through . The AOA has caused this also. Not just the company. Both to blame.

Goodbye - once I have hours to leave ;-)

[mngmt mole]

He's a troll, ignore him. He might want to consider that without a deal that satisfies ALL groups, there won't be a training department left to provide him his precious upgrade. The trainers aren't going to get screwed and then happily train a group that was responsible for that. This negotiation is about righting 20+ years of wrongs. There will never be a better chance to establish a basis for a proper career than than the one we have now. Nearly all the pilots I speak with understand that, and are resolute in seeing this through to the end. Backtothegrindstone is the type of troll we can expect to hear from over the coming weeks. Our management can't help themselves.

Hang on...thought I had better add a bit of this: !!!!!!! ;-) !!!!! (-: s, !!!!! %$&*%^ !!!!!! (just to make backtothegrindstone feel at home).

[cxorcist]

wow how naive are you? CX is no longer a long term solution!!! We all know this. Clearly you don’t !!! Weldone ;-)
sign the TA
get a upgrade
get hours
get out !!!!!

Thats the way it will work.
Trust me it will happen and go through . The AOA has caused this also. Not just the company. Both to blame.

Goodbye - once I have hours to leave ;-)


So the rest of us are supposed to forgo a career airline, the one we were promised when we joined, so that YOU can get your hours and leave? Sorry, I don’t think so. You can stand in line and HTFU! If you don’t, you be branded a traitor, expelled from the AOA, and socially ostracized. That’s how it works. We aren’t here to train other airlines’ pilots for them. You wanna be cute and use it for that, fine, but you’re along for the ride with those of us whose families depend on this job. You can fight the good fight or get out now, either works for me. If you think you are going to outvote us and get what you want, think again. Who is it do you think is going to join training and raise up you non-pilot types? You think we are all going to flood into training if cadets sell out the expats? I don’t think so. Use your head!!!

[mngmt mole]

I wouldn't let him get you so worked up Cxorcist. This is the typical management tactic, divide and conquer. In this case, it is far too late for the management to win this fight. Let's say there is a contract that 'only' benefits a minority of pilots (say, SO's), but even then, only benefits them for a short period (as moron boy suggested). The result of that would be an even greater exodus of FO's, early Capt retirements, and most certainly a further hollowing out of the training department. Result: a crippled, infighting airline, with ever increasing resignation rates and a paralyzed training system. Ironically, the idea suggested by moron boy would actually result in a longer time to his upgrade, as the entire training system would be non-functioning. There may be a few SO's who would vote for the (perceived) short term benefit, but the majority realize that their entire career value and potential is hanging on achieving an industry contract that incorporates all the things taken for granted a their home airlines. If anything, the younger members seem even more militant in achieving the needed improvement. Moron boy and his attitude are few and far between, and in his case are nothing more than a management plant to rile people up and create division. Recognize it for what it is. This management is in full flight panic mode and this this the only pathetic strategy they have. The pilots are united, and we won't throw away our advantage for a short term gain.

[Shep69]

Let's see how this works.

We have 4 groups--CN, FO, JFO, and SO. For the sake of argument we'll say there are equal amounts of people in each group (there doesn't have to be to make the scheme work; it's just a matter of picking off people within a divided work force and what's important is the concept). We'll start all even.

Ya need to remember also the lack of a pay rise is essentially (in HKG) maybe a 4-5% loss due inflation (we'll assume this is zero for the example just to make the numbers easier but the real number of any pay 'gain' would be the differential between it and inflation). Also that folks in each group can be 'enticed' with worthless promises which don't materialize.

JFO's and SO's are offered a 10% pay rise; the CN's have a 5% pay cut (but retain housing) and the FO's have a 5% cut in the upper pay brackets with a 5% gain in the lower brackets. JFO's and SO's vote for, CNs vote against. Some of the FO's are picked off due to short term gain (maybe even a CN or two due to housing stability) and TA passes with 55%. Company makes money and conditions get worse.

Most CN's and some FO's are pissed off at what happens--probably not remembering the exact numbers but only that they are pissed off at the company and JFO's/SO's for selling them out.

NEXT cycle, CNs get a 4% gain (net loss is still 1%) with the promise of hosing stability, FOs get 4% rise in upper brackets (net loss 1%) and 1% gain in lower brackets. JFO's and SO's get 10% pay cut. Split vote of 50-50. Slight gain in ARAPA for FO lower bracket picks off upgrading JFOs. TA passes 52-48.

Now everyone is pissed off (and the JFO's/SO's are mad at the CNs and FO's for selling them out) and worse off to boot.

NEXT cycle, SO's are offered 9% pay rise (net loss but new joiners don't know this), JFO's gain 9% (both groups 1% net loss over time but it looks like a decent gain in the short term), FO's stay flat, and CNs stay flat but lose housing. 50-50 split. Company then offers senior training CNs stability in housing and picks a few off. TA passes 51-49.

Rinse and repeat.

This is how we've gotten to where we are. Everyone works more for less and things decline over time by picking off groups and pitting them against each other and by exploiting the lack of understanding of new joiners (this is the anthesis of a productive work force FWIW). The important thing is to recognize how this happened in making decisions moving forward.

The KEY element to remember is that the TA's didn't pass with 90%; they passed with a very close margin to parity. So this is the key indicator that if the vote is close we are ALL getting screwed over time. It's just a matter of when our 'turn' comes.

[mngmt mole]

As with most major airlines around the world, their pilots have an understanding that you don't vote for your colleagues to lose. Only gains for ALL groups have a hope of passing. That is how the US majors have their pilots at the top of the earning tree. Their unions don't even consider a proposal unless it benefits everyone. Certainly, attacking the upper end is a losing proposition for those at the lower end, as most intelligent individuals realize that to remove the higher reaches of your own career is slow motion suicide.

[cxorcist]

Mole,

You’re right. The Company is very close or even into the proverbial “death spiral”. The only thing that will save FOP now is a massive bailout. By that, I don’t just mean money, although that will be needed in large quantities as well. We also need a huge infusion of new and capable leadership. I’m more convinced now than ever that cannot and will not come from the Swires, nor any of their underlings currently working in CXC. They are like a cancer and need to be cut out.

[raven11]

For the training ban to end...No concessions means no concessions. The association will not put forward any TA for a vote that favous one group at the expense of another. Why on earth would they??

The pressure is not on the pilots to end the training ban and bring contract compliance to an end. If, on the other hand, the Company feels that the current situation remains sustainable for an indefinite period, then there is no point in talking.

Let’s just carry on...

[FlyingNun]

Advise:
The two items that go together are:- Pay and Conditions
Don't accept just one. Both must be good and together.
No good having a good pay with bad conditions and vise versa

Learn from other airlines and Effective Trade Unions.

[Avinthenews]

Devil's advocate, pay and conditions that satisfy one group currently the 777 for arguments sake can easily get voted in, the other obvious one is with double S/Os on long haul becoming the norm how much weight will they carry in the future.

These are the loopholes CX always manage to exploit. Union rules should be written to account for it, before we screw ourselves again.

[backtothegrindstone]

Devil's advocate, pay and conditions that satisfy one group currently the 777 for arguments sake can easily get voted in, the other obvious one is with double S/Os on long haul becoming the norm how much weight will they carry in the future.

These are the loopholes CX always manage to exploit. Union rules should be written to account for it, before we screw ourselves again.

weldone

someone is listening..... SO’s will be the majority group in the future !!! So don’t piss them off———to late . All us local guys want the deal to get our career going after being delayed to help the TB/CC.
And for what ?

keep thinking I’m a Mole or management. We will see when the TA is presented. 51% YES

[Captain Dart]

If SOs are to be the majority group, it’s because of company penny pinching and willingness to compromise safety for cost savings (= managers’ bonuses) through double SO crews. But someone still has to eventually train and upgrade you, and line FOs and CNs theoretically have to mentor you.

If you are ‘local’, you have received free training, without doing the hard yards in General Aviation or the military, that foreigners would give their left ball for. In return, you accepted the crap conditions you joined under, so don’t cry me a river. STFU and pray to golden haired baby Jesus or whatever you believe in that market forces and the hard work and sacrifice of your colleagues will improve your lot.

[raven11]

Grindstone....yes we will see...

The union will not present a TA that favors one group over the other. It’s called a “Union” for that reason. So stop demonstrating your immaturity. Part of being a good pilot is remaining stoic under pressure. You are sounding like a high school brat on the playground. It’s embarrassing, so please grow up.

The first TA failed because the Company pitched it to 51% ...and got 47%. Maybe (hopefully, but one never knows) they’ve learned their lesson and this time will pitch it to 75% in order to ensure it passes. The TB has become a critical obstacle for them, so they can’t afford to let it fail this time.

It’s quite simple really.

[Numero Crunchero]

backtothegrindstone
Firstly - SOs make up about 20% of the Hong Kong based pilots. Hardly enough to force a vote through.
Secondly - despite the attempted bribing of HKPA pilots by the backpay offer of TA16, a large percentage of the SOs voted against it. I'm not sure if it was a majority but the distribution wasn't far from the actual TA outcome.

Whilst some on these forums might feel that we will act selfishly and hence be bought off with a vote buying deal, history suggests that isn't the case.

Some will vote selfishly - but in the past, and I hope in the future, the majority will vote with the entire membership in mind.

[cxorcist]

Devil's advocate, pay and conditions that satisfy one group currently the 777 for arguments sake can easily get voted in, the other obvious one is with double S/Os on long haul becoming the norm how much weight will they carry in the future.

These are the loopholes CX always manage to exploit. Union rules should be written to account for it, before we screw ourselves again.

If 2 x SO crew isn’t getting an ASRF every single time from the RQ, then we get what we deserve.

[BlunderBus]

Oh How we wish a nice little chat now would ‘sort’ it all out. The challenges and abuse from management have been relentless for 30 years! That’s right...30 years of long winded forums negotiations trials and lying. The only thing that changes are the faces of the protagonists... it’s more of the same and it never stops. We just end up taking another step backwards on and on. If we for a split second we actually believed what they say then they might have had a chance to avoid all of this nasty drawn out mess.
Theyre training and losing crew at an unprecedented rate.. senior captains and f/o’s Are all not only
offside but downright belligerent.
Its nobody’s fault but their own.. they own it.
They will never again get anywhere near the loyalty they had for free and tossed away on a whim achieving nothing in the process.
They could fix it at minimal cost with a phone call but choose to perpetuate the aggressive arrogant legacy of days past.
They get everything they deserve.. that is to say a workforce that absolutely hates them all.
If s/o’s think for one minute caving now will in ANY way improve their future then they know less about this company’s tactics than they do about flying a lunar module.

[BlunderBus]

Incidentally the USA contracts expressly include a phrase that states flying with 2 s/o’s is at the captains discretion and although he may be asked .. his decision is final.
hkaoa need to follow suit

[spleener]

weldone

someone is listening..... SO’s will be the majority group in the future !!! So don’t piss them off———to late . All us local guys want the deal to get our career going after being delayed to help the TB/CC.
And for what ?

keep thinking I’m a Mole or management. We will see when the TA is presented. 51% YES


So you want the deal to get your career going forward?
Previously you said you want to leave.
And it's all the fault of the training Training Ban. You want, you want: Very grown up.

[OK4Wire]

BB,

I believe the aussie Agreement forbids flying with 2 SOs as well - can't even be asked or called off reserve.

[Australopithecus]

If you are referring to operating long flights with one captain, one F/O and two S/Os, that has always been the way its done at QF. I apologise if I misunderstand the issue.

[Samsonite]

The difference is, that we have 2 S/O's with a total of about 300 hours combined and wouldn't even be able to hold a MPL or Commercial License let alone an ATPL in most countries.

[cxorcist]

The difference is, that we have 2 S/O's with a total of about 300 hours combined and wouldn't even be able to hold a MPL or Commercial License let alone an ATPL in most countries.

Not to worry... These airplanes fly themselves. The punters in the back will never know the difference.

[corrigin]

If you are referring to operating long flights with one captain, one F/O and two S/Os, that has always been the way its done at QF. I apologise if I misunderstand the issue.

*Warning - Slight Thread Drift*That may very well be at QF. However, the S/Os at QF come with experience. We fly with some inexperienced S/Os that are unable to transmit a standard position report on the HF radio. Recently I had one S/O that was unable to load the FMC according to our flight plan. His attention was focused on drawing boxes around FIR boundaries, triangles over MRAs above FL100 and circles at every planned level change. Of course, the majority come prepared and have the experience to back them.

Some will vote selfishly - but in the past, and I hope in the future, the majority will vote with the entire membership in mind.
Sadly, some WILL vote selfishly not realising that they are only hurting themselves and their colleagues for their future.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Sadly, he will have been taught to draw those pretty pictures whilst going through training! Should we be blaming the product or the process?

[Australopithecus]

The difference is, that we have 2 S/O's with a total of about 300 hours combined and wouldn't even be able to hold a MPL or Commercial License let alone an ATPL in most countries.

Sorry...I forgot your're hiring zero time guys. Of course our new hires are all experienced, and many already have long haul airline exposure and training courtesy of CX. Those guys are a resource that I hope you don’t end up sorely missing down the road.

[Che Xindamail]

Also, aren't a large part of QF Captains ex cadets? They seemed to have managed alright.

Through the years I’ve had the pleasure of flying with, and training, many ex-QF pilots. Every single one was an exceptionally good pilot as well as a kindhearted individual. Credit to QF’s selection procedure and training of their cadets. We all start from scratch, even though with age we forget what it was like.

[Airbubba]

Incidentally the USA contracts expressly include a phrase that states flying with 2 s/o’s is at the captains discretion and although he may be asked .. his decision is final.
hkaoa need to follow suit

That's news to me. :confused: Can you provide a reference? I'm not aware that any major U.S. airlines have second officers these days.

Sounds like an Ozmate urban legend. ;)

[EESDL]

Not sure why you think CAD should care? They’re not interested as recruits have line training and rigorous sim/base/line checks to get through before pilot allowed to touch a radio......and CX told CAD how it was to be done a long time ago ;-)

[RAT Management]

Where is Trafalgar?

[A3301FD]

Suspect Trafalgar is a victim of the media policy unlike our celebrity who saves the day when Cathay Captains get stressed, could be wrong.

[backtothegrindstone]

Suspect Trafalgar is a victim of the media policy unlike our celebrity who saves the day when Cathay Captains get stressed, could be wrong.

what do you mean ?

[Trafalgar]

Still here. On "sick leave". Needed a break from the madness. I'll be commenting when something happens. In the meantime, it's wonderful to have been able to forget about CX for a few weeks.

[Captain Dart]

Cheers Traf. I will soon be forgetting about the ‘new’ CX permanently. I will never forget the old one.

[mngmt mole]

Cheers Traf. Don't hurry back. I'm off enjoying some "recuperation time" as well. Lovely time of year here in southern Europe :ok: (ps, would some of the my fellow Captains PLEASE check your js requests...looking to get back from LHR soon :eek:).

[Liam Gallagher]

Mngmt mole,

Good luck with the JS requests out of LHR... :O

Blunderbus,

Checked with a USAOA buddy and he said their contract has no restrictions on 2x SO. He thinks you might be getting confused with ad-hoc 3 man to recover an aircraft. He also pointed out that AFTLS prevents 2x SO on sectors > 15 hours so westbound to HK would be a challenge.

[Airbubba]

Checked with a USAOA buddy and he said their contract has no restrictions on 2x SO. He thinks you might be getting confused with ad-hoc 3 man to recover an aircraft. He also pointed out that AFTLS prevents 2x SO on sectors > 15 hours so westbound to HK would be a challenge.


Your 'USAOA buddy' says he flies with SO's? What a load of nonsense. := The only SO's at U.S. carriers were flight engineers and they are long gone even at cargo outfits like FedEx and UPS.

[main_dog]

Airbubba, I think they’re talking about US-based CX pilots, they have US contracts. Thus, they fly with SOs.

[Airbubba]

Airbubba, I think they’re talking about US-based CX pilots, they have US contracts. Thus, they fly with SOs.


Doh. :ugh:

Thanks, my apologies. :ok: