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Black Pudding
30th Apr 2018, 07:26
Can any 320 operators tell me, when you hear "Twenty Five Hundred" what is your call response and why

Check Airman
30th Apr 2018, 08:05
No response.

pineteam
30th Apr 2018, 08:49
“Checked” by both PF & PM according to our SOPM.
Reasons: To confirm it’s correctly displayed on both PFDs and for awareness I guess.

Pugilistic Animus
30th Apr 2018, 09:15
More talking the plane to death then forgetting to fly just like Captain Bob said :}

wiggy
30th Apr 2018, 10:51
PA.. sounded like that was said with feeling:)

Anyhow this could be fun ....any of the BA Airbus folks care to give the company specific answer? Actually they probably started typing chapter and verse a few hours ago but haven’t finished the reply yet...;)

vilas
30th Apr 2018, 11:13
Any call auto or by respective crew member has to be acknowledged otherwise there's no way of knowing whether it was herd. Also it guards against possibility of crew incapacitation. Some response as "checked" is appropriate.

Pugilistic Animus
30th Apr 2018, 11:37
But I like their callouts https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yQyGdY31gos

Wiggy, Bob used to have me hysterical laughing RIP 411A

AerocatS2A
30th Apr 2018, 11:59
Any call?

"ONE HUNDRED" - Checked!
"FIFTY" - Checked!
"FORTY" - Checked!
"THIRTY" - Checked!
"TWENTY" - Checked!
"TEN" - Checked!

Surely not...

pineteam
30th Apr 2018, 13:02
By FCOM, it’s a standard callout for the PF to call “checked” when the RA is alive. I’m not a big fan of “too many call outs” in the cockpit but this one it’s quite important especially if you are doing LVO.

champair79
30th Apr 2018, 13:19
BA - we call “position check” and the PM responds with the procedure, distance, altitude and baro ref. Part of the approach brief should include where you expect the RA to go off so it shouldn’t be a surprise when it does.

Champ

Pugilistic Animus
30th Apr 2018, 14:09
Definitely a good reason Pineteam

Pugilistic Animus
30th Apr 2018, 14:12
BA - we call “position check” and the PM responds with the procedure, distance, altitude and baro ref. Part of the approach brief should include where you expect the RA to go off so it shouldn’t be a surprise when it does.

Champ
OMG British Airways is Wicked! :}
:ouch:

pineteam
30th Apr 2018, 14:18
LOL. And I thought we had too many callouts.. xD

RAT 5
30th Apr 2018, 14:50
The BA SOP might be 'over the top' in that it is spoken out loud. However, it is quite obvious from flying with numerous cadets in another airline, that when the RA chirped up at 2500' their response had no SA awareness whatsoever. I used to encourage them checking it against baro and confirming to themselves it made sense. It was not taught/mentioned as an airmanship SOP; the response was a piece of parrot mouth music to satisfy SOP's. Going into AGP RW14 and cutting the corner to the LOC it was not unusual to have the RA alive at 30nm from touchdown. Descending IMC that needs some understanding, good SA and confident awareness of where you are. However, there did not seem any curiosity that this triggered so far from the runway; just the parrot response. I'm sure there are many more airports where you are descending on procedures below MSA & IMC where the RA will be triggered early.

sheppey
30th Apr 2018, 15:58
In the 737-200 when the RA came alive it triggered a an amber warning light directly in front of the captain. In those days we wound up the RA selector to full scale (2500 ft) during the cruise check and left it there.
Descending into Guadalcanal (Solomon Islands South Pacific) at night we would receive a momentary alert from the RA light and the numbers would flash down for a second or two as we passed over the top of a 7000 ft mountain 15 miles from Henderson Field of WW2 fame. Thus it was a poor man's GPWS and excellent situational awareness.

dan1165
30th Apr 2018, 17:21
Just "Rad Alt alive"

champair79
30th Apr 2018, 20:28
On short UK domestic hops do BA need to start briefing at 'gear up.. now plate 10-2C...' :}

There is an element of pragmatism applied by most crews especially if operating to a familiar airfield. However “standard London, any questions?” is frowned upon!

I’ve heard the “position check” call is being changed in the not too distant future but I don’t have any information on what it might change to. Whilst many ridicule BA, the SOP is in place for precisely the reason RAT5 mentioned. It’s a final check to make sure both crew members are happy with where the aircraft is and it gives time to correct the flight path if an error is found. For most ILS’s, it’s also a good point to check that the glideslope looks sensible and you haven’t false-captured it.

Champ

Jwscud
30th Apr 2018, 21:08
Champair79 - never had the short, normal and long briefs for home base?

Short - “Heathrow”

Normal - “Standard Heathrow”

Long - “Standard Heathrow 27L”

RexBanner
30th Apr 2018, 22:29
Re approach brief, Isn’t the clue in the name?

champair79
30th Apr 2018, 23:08
Champair79 - never had the short, normal and long briefs for home base?

Short - “Heathrow”

Normal - “Standard Heathrow”

Long - “Standard Heathrow 27L”



😂. No comment. I try to be disciplined!

piratepete
30th Apr 2018, 23:51
I guess because ive been flying for so long, I just assume all pilots would know the history behind the need for SOMETHING to be said (and why) upon the radio altimeter coming alive.This is variously responded to with a call such as "terrain" "radio altimeter alive" or "twenty five hundred" or even "check" but not "checked".The reason for this is as always, situational awareness.Are you expecting terrain as this point? If not then this may be an early warning of something bad about to happen.It seems that this type of call became common place after the Air New Zealand DC10 accident, where no action was taken by the crew upon noticing the RA coming alive.Also the accident itself if I recall correctly was the reason why the GPWS response became what it is today.It is possible, just, that if that crew used todays GPWS response the accident may have been averted thus saving nearly 300 lives.

Many times in the SIM when I notice crews ignoring the RA alive call I later give them a hard GPWS out of nowhere and many many times they have crashed.Lesson learnt hopefully.

Pugilistic Animus
1st May 2018, 02:02
Not looking at the actual radio displacements and height:\

Tango23
1st May 2018, 08:12
Interesting subject

OK I have a related question, Whatever the callout is do we have to say it right when the aircraft announces "2500" or when it actually starts to show the reading?
because often there is a few seconds gap there.

pineteam
1st May 2018, 08:57
Talking for Airbus, I never noticed such a delay. In any case, the call out by the crew should be made when the reading is displayed.
in the other hand, I noticed sometimes the RA comes alive but no auto call out at 2500 AGL. Don’t know why.

Uplinker
1st May 2018, 09:20
SOPs aside; It is good airmanship to acknowledge the 2,500’ RA autocall, then look at your own RA display and then the other side RA display.

You want to be sure both Rad Alts are working; that they are sensible and reasonable and have ‘woken up’ about where you would expect them to - you are approaching the ground, after all*

You want to make sure both Rad Alts are giving the same measurement - odd things might happen with a Rad Alt disagree that could compromise your approach.

It is a good point at which to check the other pilot is still OK and has not passed out or anything, during or before your approach.


* ”poor man’s GPWS” - well said. :ok:

maggot
1st May 2018, 09:37
Now what's the bet that each airlines call out mentioned here claims they're doing "airbus procedures"

Smokey Lomcevak
1st May 2018, 09:57
The reason BA have put so much mouth music into this is because it is your last chance to trap the threat of flying a beautiful 3 degree non precision descent into the undershoot with the wrong qnh set. EGPWS will not save you for a 10hPa error. Agree it can be overkill on a glide path, but is still useful for SA. Most CFIT occurrences I read about seem to involve crews that thought they were in the slot. I quite like the 'if we get it beyond 9Dme or above 3000 ft, we've made a mistake, or we're not where we thought we would be" approach.

Tango23
1st May 2018, 11:08
Talking for Airbus, I never noticed such a delay. In any case, the call out by the crew should be made when the reading is displayed.
in the other hand, I noticed sometimes the RA comes alive but no auto call out at 2500 AGL. Don’t know why.

Well, I've noticed that in the A320 I'd say it happens in 2 out of 10 approaches, maybe it depends on type or the A320 generation or some other factors IDK

So true about the No auto callout, I'd like to know the reason too

Chris Scott
1st May 2018, 11:38
The BA SOP might be 'over the top' in that it is spoken out loud. However, it is quite obvious from flying with numerous cadets in another airline, that when the RA chirped up at 2500' their response had no SA awareness whatsoever. I used to encourage them checking it against baro and confirming to themselves it made sense. It was not taught/mentioned as an airmanship SOP; the response was a piece of parrot mouth music to satisfy SOP's. Going into AGP RW14 and cutting the corner to the LOC it was not unusual to have the RA alive at 30nm from touchdown. Descending IMC that needs some understanding, good SA and confident awareness of where you are. However, there did not seem any curiosity that this triggered so far from the runway; just the parrot response. I'm sure there are many more airports where you are descending on procedures below MSA & IMC where the RA will be triggered early.

Yes. I'm sixteen years out of date with BA call-outs but, FWIW, when I was on the A320 fleet (and we were a joint launch-customer for the type) our calls were carefully designed to avoid an unnecessary plethora of verbage. Also, each was designed to elicit a reasoned response from the other pilot, rather than the knee-jerk "checked." The pilot who initiated the call did not state the particular datum, but simply invited the other pilot to announce it. In the event of the other pilot being overloaded (or interrupted by an R/T call), the call would be postponed or cancelled.

IMO, any call that does not require a thoughtful response from the other pilot is no more than occupational therapy for the caller. Good CRM demands mutual understanding and cross-checking. One crew member must not spoon-feed or sucker the other into adopting his/her mistake or misunderstanding. Calls should also assist each pilot to identify subtle incapacitation or overload in the other. However, calls must not be allowed themselves to exacerbate overload.

Pugilistic Animus
1st May 2018, 19:10
AF makes the call checked the twenty-five hundred call, at least so it seems...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=97s&v=F7D33_u9DE0

Vessbot
1st May 2018, 20:33
AF makes the call checked the twenty-five hundred call, at least so it seems...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=97s&v=F7D33_u9DE0

That video, per se, doesn't differentiate between that being the SOP and the PM being the annoying guy who says "checked" unnecessarily at everything.

Pugilistic Animus
1st May 2018, 20:44
Vessbot it is illegal not to call checked less than 10 times in any large transport category airplane...:}

Pugilistic Animus
1st May 2018, 21:08
Just watched the whole video that didn't seem like That many callouts, really :)

mustangsally
1st May 2018, 21:53
Way back when Airbus still made jets with wire connecting the yoke (What is That) to the control surface and me sitting between two great aviators, the second officer called out 50, 40, down to touchdown. I'd often call "five, ten, five, four, eight, nice one number one!"

Maybe may be we should be more serious......

piratepete
1st May 2018, 23:51
Its not such a silly idea.Many times ive seen in the SIM with certain failures that fail the radio altimeter, many pilots have quite a hard time timing the flare, and getting the PM to call out the heights near the ground helps a lot.On the other hand on some types not fitted with auto callouts, Captains have asked for the calls from me in poor visibility, greatly enhancing their ability to make a safe landing.Good airmanship.

Jwscud
2nd May 2018, 10:20
Having had a GPWS failure in a 773 a few months back, I just asked my partner in crime to call “50” and flared based on the view out of the window. Result (in benign conditions) - my best landing of the year. The main thing I missed was not so much the call outs but the cadence of the call outs giving an extra cue to the rate of descent and progress of the flare.

IBE8720
2nd May 2018, 10:57
This is variously responded to with a call such as "terrain" "radio altimeter alive" or "twenty five hundred" or even "check" but not "checked".The reason for this is as always, situational awareness.Are you expecting terrain as this point? If not then this may be an early warning of something bad about to happen.

Like on Descent into Shiraz (OISS) at night and/or in cloud, when passing FL130 and you get the Radio Altimeter Callout. Weren't expecting that. Was not expecting the Captian to tell me the R.A must be broken so he will write it up at the end of the sector. The 11,000ft mountain we just passed over would not have had anything to do with it?

The standard callout is entirley dependant on YOUR company Standard Callouts. Its at the back of the SOP section in your FCOM, for those who have never seen it.

piratepete
3rd May 2018, 00:55
IBE thats an interesting situation indeed.That is a good example of using an appropriate call to bring attention to the terrain.The part of the Boeing/Airbus FCOM (or FCTM) that lists recommended standard callouts is well known by most pilots, however , as is always the case, these aircraft are under the control of the operator and as the postholders (DFO Chief Pilot Training Manager) have the final say with respect to what goes in the OM(A and B), this opens the door to many many different ways of presenting this part of SOPs to the crews.I know this well as I have been a postholder several times and must admit that the first time I had this responsibility I went overboard with standard callouts.Over time I have toned this down and now, if I had to do it again would use the manufacturers calls with minimal changes.However there are a few variations that are just too important from a safety perspective to not use, and the call after the radio altimeter comes alive is one of them.Around the world there are countless versions of standard calls in use some of them quite bizarre, but this is done because IT CAN BE DONE......
A question for you.Can you explain the reason for one manufacturers call at DA "continue"? Why not " landing or land" What is the purpose of this call and when should it be used?.....Peter.

Vessbot
3rd May 2018, 03:42
"Continue" seems more accurate to me, because that's what you're doing. But you don't know yet if you're landing.

vilas
3rd May 2018, 04:19
The call "Landing" was changed by airbus to "continue" because it became like a commitment to land and the only decision you take at minima is go around flaps or continue. Even below minima GA possibility exists. This is subtle change some airlines still use landing.

wiggy
3rd May 2018, 08:32
A question for you.Can you explain the reason for one manufacturers call at DA "continue"? Why not " landing or land" What is the purpose of this call and when should it be used?.....

+1 to the two above replies..:hmm:

The explanation we got when the company changed the call in our SOPs was that saying “land” was quite definitive and was perhaps subconsciously shifts the mental model/expectations of all involved in the wrong direction, whereas with “continue” you are reinforcing the fact you’ve still got options....

compressor stall
3rd May 2018, 10:25
My unadulterated FCOM states that it’s PF “checked” but if there’s no callout, it’s PM “RAdio altimeter alive”.

carnival30
4th May 2018, 10:56
The call "Landing" was changed by airbus to "continue" because it became like a commitment to land and the only decision you take at minima is go around flaps or continue. Even below minima GA possibility exists. This is subtle change some airlines still use landing.

Yeah Boeing FCTM also says 'continue' at DA/DH however below DA/DH, it says PF to call out 'Landing' if visual cues established. I find this interesting and puzzled a bit.

So are we going to call both Continue at DA and Landing below DA or is it just enough to call Continue at DA.

About the RA alive call, I dont see anywhere in boeing they recommend the call out checked or anything like that. But as many pointed out about good airmanship and using the call out.

sjimmy
5th May 2018, 00:26
No call at all on our 747
what we do say when cleared below Relevant MSA
is terrain. And PM goes or was already on terrain mode

back to Boeing
6th May 2018, 00:15
Having had a GPWS failure in a 773 a few months back, I just asked my partner in crime to call “50” and flared based on the view out of the window. Result (in benign conditions) - my best landing of the year. The main thing I missed was not so much the call outs but the cadence of the call outs giving an extra cue to the rate of descent and progress of the flare.

id totally agree with the last points. I can land reasonably well without any callouts. In the flare I'm eyeballing it. But the cadence of the calls help me to fine tune it.

The relevance of the 2500 call is vital for SA. Why am I getting the 2500 call now when I'm still 20 miles out (I'm not saying it has happened to me.....yet). Having an awareness of when you should get the call will save someone's ass one day.

Goldenrivett
6th May 2018, 15:02
The relevance of the 2500 call is vital for SA. Why am I getting the 2500 call now when I'm still 20 miles out (I'm not saying it has happened to me.....yet).
what we do say when cleared below Relevant MSA is terrain. And PM goes or was already on terrain modehttps://www.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon14.gif

Have a read of https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f616e5274a131400058b/14-1975_G-AWNJ.pdf
This was before the days of "Terrain on ND" and even before GPWS was fitted.
Nairobi airfield is at an Altitude of 5,330 feet and the crew believed they were cleared to Altitude 5,000 ft. The crew acknowledged the radio Alt call of 2,500 feet (top of page 4) and during the approach they had full fly up on the ILS GP.
They must have been really fatigued!

airguy2012
13th May 2018, 04:30
How is about "Minimum" not generated? I see this report in the techlog but when test will not listenable on ground, even programming with RA test-set. Anyone know this problem?
tks for discuss

FlightDetent
13th May 2018, 10:07
On a certain popular type, for units equipped with AFS "QFE option" the auto call outs at minimum and 100 above do not sound on a LNAV-VNAV coupled approach (they do on ILS). A documented bug.

vilas
13th May 2018, 17:47
Goldenrivett (https://www.pprune.org/members/424339-goldenrivett)
They must have been really fatigued! They were very lucky. The crew of Flying Tiger Line 747 Freighter were not so lucky. On 19th Feb1989 when given clearance "Descent two four zero zero" descended below minimum height of NDB approach 2400ft and fatally crashed into hill side at 600ft. just before reaching NDB.

wiedehopf
13th May 2018, 19:30
Goldenrivett (https://www.pprune.org/members/424339-goldenrivett)
They were very lucky. The crew of Flying Tiger Line 747 Freighter were not so lucky. On 19th Feb1989 when given clearance "Descent two four zero zero" descended below minimum height of NDB approach 2400ft and fatally crashed into hill side at 600ft. just before reaching NDB.
video made about that flight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWcfcEHkUEo

really hard to watch :(

pineteam
14th May 2018, 04:34
Talking for Airbus, I never noticed such a delay. In any case, the call out by the crew should be made when the reading is displayed.
in the other hand, I noticed sometimes the RA comes alive but no auto call out at 2500 AGL. Don’t know why.


Up for this question. Anyone knows the reason why? Again yesterday the RA became alive at 2500' AGL but no auto call out until 1000' AGL. A319, MSN 1758. Thanks.