ALASKA AIR EMERGENCY LANDING HAWAII

[CONSO]

Alaska Airlines makes emergency landing after engine put into idle mid-flight


Alaska Airlines makes emergency landing after engine put into idle mid-flight | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/04/29/alaska-airlines-makes-emergency-landing-after-engine-failed-mid-flight.html)
An Alaska Airlines plane was forced to make an emergency landing in Honolulu, Hawaii, after pilots throttled down one of the plane's engines.Flight 145 was headed to Hawaii from Seattle when an oil filter bypass light came on in the cockpit. The flight crew idled the engine and declared an emergency, but continued to Honolulu where the flight was originally scheduled to land.
GOES ON ...MID FLIGHT ???

HONOLULU (KHON2) - An Alaska Airlines plane was forced to make an emergency landing in Honolulu after one of its engines was idled after a warning indicator turned on. The Boeing 737-800 landed safely at the Daniel K. Inouye International Airport at 9:50 p.m.

According to State Department of Transportation officials, flight 145 was inbound to Honolulu from Seattle.Alaska Airlines said that an oil filter bypass light illuminated for one of the engines on the plane. Following procedures, the flight crew idled the engine and continued for Honolulu."The captain came on the overhead speaker and just said that they were having overheating of one of the engines so they needed to idle a little bit to try to let it cool off but that were going to have to make a quicker landing than usual. And we were going to have a fire crew ready when we landed just in case. That's about all he said and then he got off quickly," passenger Carrie Mingle said.This was after the plane had already passed the half-way mark from Seattle to Honolulu. "A lot of people on the plane had written emails or texts to their loved ones because they weren't sure what was going to happen," Mingle recalled.

[Not Long Now]

Well let's be literal here, if it were mid flight, half way there, presumably there's less water infront of you than behind, so the logical answer...
Still, never let a sound decision go unquestioned BY SHOUTING.

[eagleflyer]

go mid-flight? There‘s an awful lot of water around....it‘s either RTB or press on I would say.

[SamYeager]

On another website it was mentioned that the flight was approx 2/3 of the way there. No idea how true that is but if so, it explains the decision to press on.

[CONSO]

Well let's be literal here, if it were mid flight, half way there, presumably there's less water infront of you than behind, so the logical answer...
Still, never let a sound decision go unquestioned BY SHOUTING.

Let me know when you find out on this new fubared site how to change font size.

[pilotmike]

Let me know when you find out on this new fubared site how to change font size.
Not Long Now's point wasn't about making any font smaller or larger - rather it was that you had found the CAPS LOCK key - and used it!

You also appear to have made full use of that same CAPS LOCK key for your user-name too. A trend or pattern, perhaps?

[albatross]

I assume that they returned the eng to normal power settings for landing.
Thank Gawd they missed the orphanage, hospital and 'cute puppy farm'!

[Carbon Bootprint]

Let me know when you find out on this new fubared site how to change font size.i asked this question in the feedback thread and was told it’s not possible now, supposedly in a future upgrade. However, I think the issue Here was posting in all caps, akin to shouting on this interweb thing. Or so I’m told.:rolleyes:

[tdracer]

go mid-flight? There‘s an awful lot of water around....it‘s either RTB or press on I would say.
Exactly! There are no alternates between North America and Hawaii so if they were past half way the only reasonable thing to do is keep going (it's also why 180 minute ETOPS is a must to operate between NA and the Hawaiian Islands).
There was a note that Maui would have been a few minutes closer but the difference was so slight they elected to land at the original destination of Honolulu. I suppose the decision to bypass Maui could be nitpicked, but not the decision to continue to the Hawaiian Islands. Oh, and remember, they didn't shut down the engine, just reduced the power.

[CONSO]

i asked this question in the feedback thread and was told it’s not possible now, supposedly in a future upgrade. However, I think the issue Here was posting in all caps, akin to shouting on this interweb thing. Or so I’m told.:rolleyes:



I copied part of the headline in the article I quoted under the assumption I could later reduce the size- This was to make it easier for some to find the story in other venues. I left out the words mid-ocean deliberately since there seemed to be some conflicting comments as to when the announcement was made versus where they were at the time. I was obviously wrong- mea culpa - first mistake this year

Interesting to note that in two or three years of posting - this is the first complaint re my name being in all caps. sure glad we have some posting/ font size police aboard.Coming soon - the spell police and the acronym police. and do we now need a safe place for those who have been font or CAPS abused ??

[Intruder]

I assume that they returned the eng to normal power settings for landing.
Probably not. There are several situations where the preferred procedure with some engines (compressor stalls in a CF6, oil pressure in a J-52) is to reduce power to a stable level and leave it there. The probability of catastrophic failure is reduced if you don't try to change the thrust level.

About 10 years ago I had compressor stalls on a CF6 on a 747 Classic, about 2 hours into a Turkey - Hong Kong flight. Reducing N1 to about 80% worked for a couple hours, then reducing to idle worked for the rest of the flight. UNTIL the F/O who was flying decided he wanted to bring it up to approach thrust on final. Within 15 seconds or so the engine chugged again, and spewed a good portion of our turbine blades into Hong Kong Harbor. On landing roll it started overtemping even at idle, so we shut it down.

[ImbracableCrunk]

They went for HNL for the longer runway, landed F15 using OEI procedures, engine idled. Replacement engine already arrived via Hercules.

[RAT 5]

It might sound simple, but I've sen it cause confusion in the sim. Guys are so programmed to a fixed scenario, leading them into a QRH, and following the instructions. Here there is a hybrid situation. The engine is not providing thrust, but it is not shut down. It does require the 'One engine inoperative landing checklist'. How much of the Engine Failure/Shutdown checklist does it need? Depending on the sharp end experience that can be a simple or confusing discussion. It does require leadership.

[aterpster]

Anyone in this thread know what equal time point (ETP) means?

[roybert]

Anyone in this thread know what equal time point (ETP) means?

Aterpster It the point in the flight where it takes 10 minutes to get to where your going and 10 minutes to turn around and get back to where you started from.

Roybert

[albatross]

Probably not. There are several situations where the preferred procedure with some engines (compressor stalls in a CF6, oil pressure in a J-52) is to reduce power to a stable level and leave it there. The probability of catastrophic failure is reduced if you don't try to change the thrust level.

About 10 years ago I had compressor stalls on a CF6 on a 747 Classic, about 2 hours into a Turkey - Hong Kong flight. Reducing N1 to about 80% worked for a couple hours, then reducing to idle worked for the rest of the flight. UNTIL the F/O who was flying decided he wanted to bring it up to approach thrust on final. Within 15 seconds or so the engine chugged again, and spewed a good portion of our turbine blades into Hong Kong Harbor. On landing roll it started overtemping even at idle, so we shut it down.


I understand your point but according to the report this was an Oil Filter Bypass indication. If there is no associated Chip Light, Oil Press./ Temp fluctuations or other secondary indications would the best course not be to return to normal power for the landing? Just a thought. I have no idea what the ECL for that aircraft states.
However I wasn't there so well done that crew.

[scifi]

Anyone in this thread know what equal time point (ETP) means?

Could be the same as 'Point of No-Return', but maybe taking into account the time needed to do the 180 turn.
.

[albatross]

ETP....same time required to press on or turn back.
PNR....point where it is no longer possible to return to your point of departure.

[Pom Pax]

Could be the same as 'Point of No-Return', but maybe taking into account the time needed to do the 180 turn.
.

Nearly right but in the case above only in still air. Equal time point takes into account wind speed and direction. Point of no return involves your fuel state.

[albatross]

Nearly right but in the case above only in still air. Equal time point takes into account wind speed and direction. Point of no return involves your fuel state.

Both ETP and PNR have to take into account wind speed and direction as well as fuel state. Once PNR is reached ETP becomes irrelevant.

[aterpster]

I flew a lot from LAX to HNL. Not only were we committed to press on passing the ETP, when westbound, once 300 miles out SFO was closer than LAX and until within 300 miles of HNL, Hilo was closer than HNL. And, the flip side going HNL to LAX.

[Orange future]

My understanding with this event is the checklist instructed the crew to shut the engine down as apposed to reduce to idle.
It raises some interesting questions.
Do you ignore a checklist considering the fact that you are midway between the mainland and HI?
I assume that leaving it at idle keeps some ancillary services running such as a gen (not a Boeing guy) which is probably what the crew were thinking????
If the engine has some health issues wouldn’t it make more sense to shut it down then possibly restart it for the approach and landing or have the relight checklist at hand for a quick restart in case the other donk developed issues along the way?????
Would running the engine with an oil filter bypass indication AND a chip detector indication for the remainder of the flight make it worse?
I am not advocating either way but there are so many different ways to proceed with such an event.

[stator vane]

that’s hard work! I can barely take a UK to Canaries in that flight deck! 4 hrs each way, and I stand up for some time each sector. How long is it to Hawaii? At least I have airports all along the way

[tdracer]

that’s hard work! I can barely take a UK to Canaries in that flight deck! 4 hrs each way, and I stand up for some time each sector. How long is it to Hawaii? At least I have airports all along the way

It's five to six hours from the west coast to Hawaii, depending on the winds and such. But any more 737/757 and A320's are the 'norm' between the US mainland (especially near the west coast) and Hawaii (Hawaiian uses 767/A330s, planning to switch to 787s in the future, but they are the exception). And yes, it's a long flight on a 737...

[Herod]

A company I used to fly for had at one time the longest regular 737 route in the world Gatwick to Malabo in Equatorial Guinea. Something in the region of 7 hours.

[hunbet]

Here is the checklist procedure :

ENGINE OIL FILTER BYPASS

Condition: An engine OIL FILTER BYPASS alert illuminated indicates an impending bypass of the scavenge oil filter.
AUTOTHROTTLE (If engaged) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Disengage [Allows thrust lever to remain where manually positioned.]
THRUST lever . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Retard Retard until the OIL FILTER BYPASS alert extinguishes or thrust lever is closed.
If the OIL FILTER BYPASS alert extinguishes: Operate the engine at reduced thrust to keep the alert extinguished.
If the OIL FILTER BYPASS alert remains illuminated: Accomplish the ENGINE FAILURE/SHUTDOWN checklist.

[Intruder]

Here there is a hybrid situation. The engine is not providing thrust, but it is not shut down. It does require the 'One engine inoperative landing checklist'. How much of the Engine Failure/Shutdown checklist does it need? Depending on the sharp end experience that can be a simple or confusing discussion. It does require leadership.
I disagree with a couple statements here.

1) A jet engine at idle IS producing thrust - just less thrust than you might like. It is NOT causing drag, as a windmilling, shut-down engine does.

2) Whether it "requires" the OEI checklist is a matter of SOP. Our SOP (4-engine airplane) did not. Whether it is smart to refer to that checklist is another matter. Yes, it is a good idea to refresh your memory on what is impacted. You still have the associated generator, hydraulic pumps, and bleed air; you have reverse idle available on landing. You will need significantly less rudder input than if the engine was shut down. Your performance will be somewhat better than if it was shut down. Depending on the runway, flap limitations in the OEI checklist may or may not be prudent.

[Ascend Charlie]

A jet engine at idle IS producing thrust - just less thrust than you might like. It is causing LESS drag than a windmilling, shut-down engine does.


There ya go, fixed it for you.

[RAT 5]

Are you advocating flying an approach with one engine at idle, and using only the other engine for thrust & speed control, but using standard 2 engine approach technique & flaps? A single engine approach, or 2 engine approach, is IMHO about thrust available and not electrics & hydraulics etc. I assume they'd have the APU running, just in case. I can understand there is a different philosophy on a 4 pot to a 2 pot. I wonder why, with one engine operating at idle on any type, you would not apply OEI techniques.

[Kiltrash]

Remember did they not discover United once sent a non ETOPS 738 to Hawaii from the mainland ? Was it stranded and flown back empty with flight crew only

however unless the engine has catastrophic failure better to keep it idling just in case the other gives issues

remember Kegworth where they shut down the good un
​​​

[A Squared]

Could be the same as 'Point of No-Return', but maybe taking into account the time needed to do the 180 turn.
.

No, not even close ETP and PNR are two completely different things. ETP is a point between 2 diversion alternates, (or destination and diversion alternate) where the time to fly to either is the same, considering winds. PNR is the point beyond which you cannot return to your departure point. PNR is not really related to any ETP, and may be beyond your destination. Ie: on shorter legs with large fuel loads, you can return to your point of departure at any point including overhead your destination.

About the only correlation between PNR and ETP is that ideally your PNR should be beyond the ETP between your departure and destination.

[A Squared]

Remember did they not discover United once sent a non ETOPS 738 to Hawaii from the mainland ?
​​​

I remember someone did that (oops) I don't recall whether it was United.

[wiggy]

A Squared

No, not even close ETP and PNR are two completely different things. ......... on shorter legs with large fuel loads, you can return to your point of departure at any point including overhead your destination.

:ok:

Shuttle sector with round trip fuel outbound , there's essentially no geographic PNR to the origin, but there will be an ETP between origin and destination.

[A Squared]

there's essentially no geographic PNR to the origin,

Yeah. "beyond destination" is sort of an awkward way to phrase it, but that's what our flight planing software prints on our flight plans: "PNR is beyond destination" . It could be that "no PNR" might be a clearer way to say it.

[SeenItAll]

Remember did they not discover United once sent a non ETOPS 738 to Hawaii from the mainland ? Was it stranded and flown back empty with flight crew only​​​

It was American, not United -- and an A321, not a B738 -- if we are remembering the same incident. And yes, it was ferried back empty.
https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2015/09/11/oops-american-accidentally-flies-wrong-plane-to-hawaii/

[rog747]

It was American, not United -- and an A321, not a B738 -- if we are remembering the same incident. And yes, it was ferried back empty.
https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2015/09/11/oops-american-accidentally-flies-wrong-plane-to-hawaii/

I also seem to recall Air2bob sent an non-etops 757 T/A LGW to MCO - is that so?

[Intruder]

Are you advocating flying an approach with one engine at idle, and using only the other engine for thrust & speed control, but using standard 2 engine approach technique & flaps? A single engine approach, or 2 engine approach, is IMHO about thrust available and not electrics & hydraulics etc. I assume they'd have the APU running, just in case. I can understand there is a different philosophy on a 4 pot to a 2 pot. I wonder why, with one engine operating at idle on any type, you would not apply OEI techniques.
I am not advocating anything other than following the checklists and SOP you have, then evaluating the situation for further action.

Yes, there is a difference between 2-engine and 4-engine airplanes. However, with OEI, they both have about the same relative performance - the ability to continue from V1 at max certified T/O weight and safely get airborne. One big difference is that with an inboard engine at idle or inoperative, the 4-engine airplane handles almost the same as with all running; just add a few % N1 and a bit of rudder trim (been there, done that). Assuming this event happened just after the ETP, the crew still had a couple hours to evaluate the situation, call Dispatch for guidance, and make a decision on how to land. Also, after a relatively long flight for the type, the landing weight was relatively low, so performance was less of an issue.

Indeed, SOME of the items in the OEI checklist may be applicable, so it is certainly worth reviewing. However, running and following it blindly may not be a good idea. For example, one item may well be "FUEL CONTROL switch (affected engine) . . . . . . Confirm . . . . . CUTOFF".

FWIW, there is no OEI checklist for the 744, though there is a "Two Engines Inop" checklist. That means we use the same "techniques" landing with OEI as we do with all 4 running...

[suninmyeyes]

The oil filter bypass opens when the pressure in the oil filter increases past a certain psi. I have had it due to metal particles in the filter and the checklist has you retard the thrust lever until the message disappears, if it does not disappear the engine has to be shutdown. The emergency would have been declared as the aircraft could not maintain its assigned flight level on one engine and would need to descend. However I would not call the subsequent landing an emergency landing. To me an emergency landing is when there is difficulty with the aircraft handling or some doubt the aircraft can be landed safely and stopped on the runway without risk to passengers. One engine running at idle is hardly an emergency landing.

[lomapaseo]

A jet engine at idle IS producing thrust - just less thrust than you might like. It is causing LESS drag than a windmilling, shut-down engine does.
There ya go, fixed it for you.

Are we sure of that?

I think a pressure balance needs to be done in order to assess the Net forces. Keep in mind the nacelle produces most of the drag, son what goes on in the engine pressure (forward and aft) makes up the difference.

[WingNut60]

The oil filter bypass opens when the pressure in the oil filter increases past a certain psi. I have had it due to metal particles in the filter and the checklist has you retard the thrust lever until the message disappears, if it does not disappear the engine has to be shutdown. The emergency would have been declared as the aircraft could not maintain its assigned flight level on one engine and would need to descend. However I would not call the subsequent landing an emergency landing. To me an emergency landing is when there is difficulty with the aircraft handling or some doubt the aircraft can be landed safely and stopped on the runway without risk to passengers. One engine running at idle is hardly an emergency landing.

The following refers to the technical aspects of filter blocking; SOP's may say something entirely different.
I'm not saying that you are wrong in this case, but most filter blocking indicators that I have run into do not just detect absolute pressure but use a differential pressure switch ( or two pressure switches) to detect when filter blocking is about to become a problem. It will, of course, continue to alarm if the situation deteriorates.
But the intention is to alarm before unfiltered oil start streaming through the bypass relief valve.
If by reducing engine speed you can reduce the differential pressure across the filter then you should be safe provided that the by-pass did not open while the alarm was active.
And you don't really know whether that happened or not.

[tdracer]

The newer installations don't use pressure switches - they use differential pressure transducers (typically strain gauge type). Switches fail (especially in the adverse environment of an engine) - transducers are far easier to fault detect, and monitored by the FADEC they are typically dual channel redundant. Typical installation will set a fault when the delta P gets above a certainly level (if anyone's looking it says it time to replace the filter), then set a flight deck message when the delta P approaches bypass.
All that being said, I don't know what the CFM56-7 uses...

[WingNut60]

The newer installations don't use pressure switches - they use differential pressure transducers (typically strain gauge type). Switches fail (especially in the adverse environment of an engine) - transducers are far easier to fault detect, and monitored by the FADEC they are typically dual channel redundant. Typical installation will set a fault when the delta P gets above a certainly level (if anyone's looking it says it time to replace the filter), then set a flight deck message when the delta P approaches bypass.
All that being said, I don't know what the CFM56-7 uses...

Yep. Transducers are more reliable, especially at higher pressures. But they do fail too.
Hence the redundancy.
Do you want to see what a shoe box full of 'em looks like?

[Deadstick126]

I don't know if turbulance is a consideration in an engine out situation, but Maui approach is considerably bumpier then HNL.

[aterpster]

I don't know if turbulence is a consideration in an engine out situation, but Maui approach is considerably bumpier then HNL.
Nope, only if there are TRWs that block the approach path. Otherwise, runway winds only.