Allegiant Air on 60 minutes

[rotor-rooter]

There are a number of stories on this site about this outfit.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/allegiant-air-the-budget-airline-flying-under-the-radar/

[tdracer]

I used to watch and respect 60 Minutes as quality journalism.
Then they did a story where I had first hand knowledge of the subject and the people involved. What a steaming pile of :mad:
Now I don't trust a single thing on that show.

[BCAR Section L]

know John Goglia personally and would place his word before any journalist.
If he says something is wrong, it is wrong.

[rotornut]

I watched 60 Minutes when they did a story on the Soviet consulate general in New York. The Soviets owned a house on Long Island which 60 Minutes said contained extensive radio monitoring equipment. They showed a picture of the house. The only antenna on the house was a small TV antenna! I didn't trust them after that.

I just watched the video and they seem to be accurate about Allegiant.

[GlobalNav]

The meat of the story, beyond the corner-cutting of Allegiant, is what John Goglia said (and he knows what he's talking about) and what the Director of FAA Flight Standards had to say (or not say). It is a multi-faceted problem, but not much has happened since Valuejet. When that accident happens, the one foreshadowed by Allegiant's public record of maintenance issues and the apparent hindrance to proper safety steps by Allegiant Captains (e.g., writeups, evacuations), at least one head will roll - will it be the Director of Flight Standards, or the Associate Administrator for Aviation Safety?

[ironbutt57]

the problem with the FAA is simple..if they go into an operation all gang-busters and shut it down based on incident reports, the airline management hires an expensive lawyer, who goes to Washington DC and whines about the treatment, harassment etc, the local FAA inspectors get censured, and case closed...if all the paperwork lines up during a base check, then the airline is safe....until they kill somebody...then the FAA will act...probably...

[737er]

Risk Literacy

https://youtu.be/g4op2WNc1e4

[787PIC]

Pilot pushing started with the barnstormers and still alive and well!
Unfortunately ValueJet proved you cannot chase bargain hunters away from a burning aircraft!

[Heathrow Harry]

An airline I avoid under any circumstances

In some parts of the world you have no choice but to fly with airlines that have a dodgy record but in the USA??

[PJ2]

Does Allegiant have a FOQA Program? Are they known to support a Just Culture, (& reporting culture) approach to flight safety?

[Sorry Dog]

... Are they known to support a Just Culture, (& reporting culture) approach to flight safety?

This incident would suggest not...

https://www.pprune.org/north-america/570566-allegiant-fires-pilot-after-ordering-emergency-evacuation.html

In fact, I am quite interested on where Captain Kinser's case is goinag. It was scheduled to start last summer. Knowing how these cases normally go, it is probably still going on...

edit: finally had a chance to watch part of the 60 min episode... Said Kinser's case is still waiting to be heard. Many years ago I worked for a plaintiff firm and it's not uncommon for cases like these to ultimately take 5 years or more from filing to settlement or judgement completion. (We had one multi party complex engineering/ construction case that finally settled when I was there after being filed 20 years prior!)

I used to watch and respect 60 Minutes as quality journalism.
Then they did a story where I had first hand knowledge of the subject and the people involved. What a steaming pile of :mad:
Now I don't trust a single thing on that show

Here's my take on 60 minutes and similar programs. My guess with 60 minutes is that when they send their investigative reporters after a story, after a while they have a fair amount of time and money invested in that story. Well, sometimes there is a lot meat and something to the story, and sometimes some stories that look good at first turn out less "exciting." The only way to flesh out which is which is to spend time, money, and effort on it. However, the reporters involved with the dud stories and the producers are still likely under a lot of pressure to produce something the show can use for the time and money invested. Since these guys are under pressure to produce, the story must be exaggerated to give it the usual smoking gun tone that viewers expect with the show.

I can imagine that this problem has only gotten worse as TV show business has transformed over the last 30 years. Audiences have become much more fractured, and shows like 60 minutes have to operate on much more limited budgets. Unfortunately, I think this problem is starting to affect the news industry as a whole as traditional reporting from other media like newspapers has had their budgets squeezed. The only thing a viewer or reader can do is have a skeptical point of view and try to sniff out with stories are probably on the mark and which ones are out there for less ethical reasons. Of course, if you have a more skeptical point of view and are truly interested, the internet provides a great tool to validate or dispel the point of view that 60 Minutes is portraying. This is great compared to 30 years ago, but it is still unfortunate compared to height of the show when it was Barbara Walters giving the story. Yet, even back then this problem reared it's head if you remember when NBC got caught rigging GM vehicles to explode when doing a story on unsafe gas tanks.

[PJ2]

Sorry Dog;

Some good observations re budgets and other media processes. Yes, the incident suggests otherwise regarding the existence of a just culture at Allegiant, (which they could easily address), but the question needs to be answered in other ways as well.

For example, in their safety policy manual is there a statement from the CEO regarding a reporting culture in which pilots shall not be disciplined for reporting mistakes and other occurrences. Are there statements and policies regarding "Incident Decision Trees", or Reason's Just Culture Action Model that governs the airline's response to deviations from standards such as competency issues, (which would be systemic matters), negligence or intentional actions?

And if they have a FOQA Program, do they employ it normally or do they use it as evidence against individual pilots?

Every airline has events and series of events which, to outsiders, including 60 Minutes, can be made to look other than what they may be. For example, if a statement claiming an airline has safety problems because of the high number of go-arounds or diversions an airline makes, that clearly requires suspension of judgement and further examination. Any statement regarding the existence of and operation of a modern, enlightened, (non-punitive) safety culture which encourages self-reporting also requires examination, and not by television shows. Allegiant's reputation has existed for a long time. So, there is also a "that was then and this is now" aspect to any such non-expert reporting by media - has the airline learned, or does the level of incidents continue and do they carry on in spite of their own record?

Is the FAA actively watching them and if so, why?

These are matters of investigation, not matters of opinions. The former is left for trained, experienced aviation people, the former is taken up by non-experts or those with special interests in "guiding opinions" in a certain manner.

With the exception of serious industry publications known for their work, television and other media do not deserve high credit when it comes to aviation matters, not because of budgets and deadlines but mostly because their wide, general audience is not interested in the details of why, they just want the dirt.

While that's just part and parcel of many cultures, it doesn't constitute evidence of a slack or high-risk operation.

But those in charge do have an obligation to demonstrate to their customers that they are indeed operating a healthy safety culture and are doing the proper, normal things to address flight safety matters.

[ironbutt57]

two pilots were fired of a smoke in the cabin/evacuation incident because some flight ops management decided it wasn't needed...thats an example of their "just culture"