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Far Canel
16th Apr 2018, 10:32
Just out of curiosity, how are the roadshows going? Would love to think decent numbers are attending but that is my question exactly.
I attended a road show in Adelaide in September last year. Very informative and seem to be quiet genuine, maybe optimistic, with regards to the required numbers in the coming 12 months of +400 across the group. No real specific details about any part of the group. But obviously my information might be some what outdated now.

Most likely an interesting year ahead.

chickoroll
16th Apr 2018, 10:47
The road shows are being held just to gauge how many female pilots out here. This will give them an indication of how many female cadets they will need to employ when they start the training academy.

This is fact QF are actively only seeking female pilots. Good luck covering the mat leave in the next decade.

Qantas looks to women to solve looming pilot shortage (http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/qantas-targets-women-to-ward-off-looming-pilot-shortage/news-story/75298f4d9dbd31198ab622a4bb8bcdf2)

FLGOFF
16th Apr 2018, 10:54
The road shows are being held just to gauge how many female pilots out here. This will give them an indication of how many female cadets they will need to employ when they start the training academy.

This is fact QF are actively only seeking female pilots. Good luck covering the mat leave in the next decade.

Qantas looks to women to solve looming pilot shortage (http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/qantas-targets-women-to-ward-off-looming-pilot-shortage/news-story/75298f4d9dbd31198ab622a4bb8bcdf2)


So other than a media beat up article from over a month ago, do you have anything else to back this 'fact' up? Have you attended one of the roadshows?

mince
16th Apr 2018, 10:58
More like a year ago. And still looking for pilots, female or otherwise. Where all the fly girls at?!?!?

Bug Smasher Smasher
17th Apr 2018, 00:44
Where all the fly girls at?!?!?
Yes! Gold star for the Blazing Saddles reference!! :D

4EvahLearning
17th Apr 2018, 04:12
Good luck covering the mat leave in the next decade.


In this day and age? Really? A comment like this?

Fathers take paternity leave these days when babies are born. I wonder how that is being covered.

I seriously hope this comment was just a wind up.

neville_nobody
17th Apr 2018, 04:53
In this day and age? Really? A comment like this?

Fathers take paternity leave these days when babies are born. I wonder how that is being covered.

I seriously hope this comment was just a wind up.
May I suggest you review pregnancy and how it affects holding a Class 1 Pilot Medical before posting too much more feminazi propaganda.

The fact is that the current HR management won't have to deal with any leave issues they create by recruiting a large number of women now as by 7-10 years they will have moved on and it will be someone elses problem.

It will be interesting to see if airlines in general will be able to keep female pilots long term.

Bug Smasher Smasher
17th Apr 2018, 05:36
In this day and age? Really? A comment like this?

Fathers take paternity leave these days when babies are born. I wonder how that is being covered.

I seriously hope this comment was just a wind up.
Itís a legitimate concern. Are you aware of the difference in the length of maternity leave as opposed to paternity leave?

pilotchute
17th Apr 2018, 05:45
No it was my lack of recent IF time apparently. I didn't even get a sim. The head of pilot recruitment called me and encouraged me to get some IF time and reapply in 12 months.

That's not the actions of an airline with a shortage. They were interviewing 40 people that week. They are still being picky.

Rated De
17th Apr 2018, 09:17
Qantas sideshows, err roadshows!

It would appear that the enormity of the demographic shortage is now a big concern in Fort Fumble.

Regional airline 'applicants' are thin on the ground.

Again Qantas pilots may know more, however in past ventures interest was high. We are informed that the capital city (Sydney and Melbourne) was approximately 25% of previous attendances.

The source stated concern is at a high level as crewing shortages increase pressure on executive management, both in regional subsidiaries and increasingly mainline.
Problematic appeared the gross number of applicants and the composition of the 'pool'

Internal applicants represented approximately 30% of total applicants, with total applicants less than 800.

With the released training totals (for Qantas pilots) this may well again be a topic of conversation at the next board meeting.

Executive management will be quietly hoping some sort of crisis emerges.

jetlikespeeds
17th Apr 2018, 09:48
Come on. Qf is recruiting like never before so itís never been easier to get in than it is right now. If youíve received a ďthanks but no thanksĒ letter, I guarantee it wasnít because of the girls.

No, it will be something far more stupid like Ďlacking company spirití or Ďlacking empathyí... both reasons that I have heard from unsuccessful internal male applicants.

And yes, I agree with sentiments above regarding maternity leave. A push to employ a larger than normal ratio of female pilots will result in a greater than normal amount of maternity leave in 5 or so years.

havick
17th Apr 2018, 10:07
No, it will be something far more stupid like Ďlacking company spirití or Ďlacking empathyí... both reasons that I have heard from unsuccessful internal male applicants.

And yes, I agree with sentiments above regarding maternity leave. A push to employ a larger than normal ratio of female pilots will result in a greater than normal amount of maternity leave in 5 or so years.

Isnít that a good thing for the OT whores when all these extra sequences end up in open time?

theheadmaster
17th Apr 2018, 10:25
Regardless of anybody's view around maternity leave, it is actually unlawful for an employer to discriminate against a potential employee based on the potential for them to become pregnant.

IsDon
17th Apr 2018, 10:32
Regardless of anybody's view around maternity leave, it is actually unlawful for an employer to discriminate against a potential employee based on the potential for them to become pregnant.

Although, itís apparently quite legal, in fact politically correct, for an employer to discriminate against a male applicant. To put in another way using your vernacular, the legality to discriminate against an individual, is inversely proportional to the likelihood of said individual becoming pregnant.

*Lancer*
17th Apr 2018, 10:40
Although, itís apparently quite legal, in fact politically correct, for an employer to discriminate against a male applicant. To put in another way using your vernacular, the legality to discriminate against an individual, is inversely proportional to the likelihood of said individual becoming pregnant.

What specific examples do you have of this discrimination actually occurring in Qantas?

jetlikespeeds
17th Apr 2018, 11:25
What specific examples do you have of this discrimination actually occurring in Qantas?

Ask them about the ratio of male cadets who were unsuccessful vs the ratio of female cadets that were unsuccessful of those that were forced to slum it on the turboprop fleet when mainline had them all reapply for their jobs.

Keg
17th Apr 2018, 11:42
Internal applicants represented approximately 30% of total applicants, with total applicants less than 800.



Your source’s numbers regarding total applicants for mainline positions are under done by about 25%. The numbers of internals are about 25% of that larger number.

Still not great numbers given 200-300 may have been those who missed out last year.

FLGOFF
17th Apr 2018, 11:44
What specific examples do you have of this discrimination actually occurring in Qantas?

I believe it was said more in a general sense, rather than being specific to Qantas.

However if we want to be specific, we can look straight towards our own government when it comes to women going into the Air Force.

Minimum period of service for male pilots - 11.5 years.
Minimum period of service for female pilots - 6 years.
Female university students also have exclusive access to the Graduate Pilot Scheme.

They claim that the Graduate Pilot Scheme is only in a 'trial' period and they'll open it to men as well after that trial period, however it has been on a trial period for years and it's obvious that's just their attempt to protect themselves from accusations of discrimination.:*

IsDon
17th Apr 2018, 13:38
I believe it was said more in a general sense, rather than being specific to Qantas.

However if we want to be specific, we can look straight towards our own government when it comes to women going into the Air Force.

Minimum period of service for male pilots - 11.5 years.
Minimum period of service for female pilots - 6 years.
Female university students also have exclusive access to the Graduate Pilot Scheme.

They claim that the Graduate Pilot Scheme is only in a 'trial' period and they'll open it to men as well after that trial period, however it has been on a trial period for years and it's obvious that's just their attempt to protect themselves from accusations of discrimination.:*

My comments were of a general nature, and not specific to Qantas.

In fact the RAAF was forefront in my thinking when making that comment. My nephew has just been through the whole RAAF pilot recruitment nightmare. After being recommended in the top 25% of applicants following his flight screening he was not offered a position in the RAAF. The Navy took him instead.

I was told by a good mate I served with, whoís still in the RAAF, that this yearís ADFA RAAF Pilot intake only took TEN MALES the rest of the intake was reserved for women only. Usually a course is about 30.

My nephew was told that if he performs well on Navy pilotsí course, and still wants to fly jets, the RAAF will welcome him with open arms. The Navy and the RAAF do the same pilotsí course.

While the Marise Payneís of this world can make these daft policy decisions, itís the military that have to pick up the pieces. The RAAF fully expect an increase in pilotsí course scrub rates directly attributed to a recruiting culture where whatís between your legs (or isnít) is of more importance than whatís between your ears. Problem is, they still have to crew aircraft. If they can poach them from the Navy, they will.

This type of blatant discrimination is not only legal, itís encouraged in our PC world.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is where your tax dollars are going. Funding social engineering projects.

stormfury
17th Apr 2018, 20:40
Unfortunately this is not of Payneís doing and will not disappear when she does. These types of practices started well before her time by Ďsenior leadersí who have become more political in their outlook than focusing on their core responsibilities. And they wonder why retention of certain skill-sets has become a problem.

Jetdream
18th Apr 2018, 00:49
https://www.smh.com.au/business/careers/time-to-up-the-ante-to-get-more-female-pilots-says-qantas-boss-alan-joyce-20171122-gzqv6t.html

This article is from last year but doesnít it say it all?
Anyone saying that female applicants arenít getting an advantage over male applicants have rocks in their head.
ĎIn the past 12 months Qantas has almost doubled the number of female pilots in the pipeline.í Would be interesting to see the number of male vs female applications for that intake.
I just donít get why this is deemed acceptable in Australia these days.

Slippery_Pete
18th Apr 2018, 03:11
Why? Because every one is so shit scared of being labeled a sexist mysoginist.

Perhaps a freedom of information request showing percentage of male applicants successful vs percentage of female applicants successful?

Iím all for equal opportunity. I accept that traditionally some fields have been made unnecessarily difficult for women to be successful, including aviation.

But theyíre preferencing a gender to try and solve a gender preferencing issue. It beggars belief.

sagan
18th Apr 2018, 03:30
I have been told a lot of GA companies are unlikely to employ women knowing they are more likely to leave quickly. No point spending $$ to train them.
Not the girl's fault, but the fault of the new 'culture'.

ADawg
18th Apr 2018, 07:18
Why is there no push for more males in areas such as teaching and nursing where a vast majority of those employed are woman? (greater than 90% for woman I believe in nursing) I have yet to see these fields promoted to the lads but the drive for woman pilots regularly pops up in the media.

Funny how in industries where woman are more pronounced there is not even a solitary squeal.

We should be hiring the best pilots, teachers, nurses, etc regardless of their sex. Affirmative action is just nonsense if HR departments are knocking back quality candidates because there are quotas to fill.

Disclaimer - I have three wonderful daughters and so I am certainly a supporter of equal opportunities.

Aviatrix91
18th Apr 2018, 07:51
Something that seems to have gotten lost in this thread drift is the fact that female pilots have to undergo all of the same testing of their male counterparts. Yes companies may be trying to get more woman to interview ( which has increased because it is actually advertised as a career path and promoted far more then it was 10 years ago) but that is as far as any preferential treatment may go. What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.

Lapon
18th Apr 2018, 08:10
What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.

Although unfortunately the decisions made as a result of the post interview 'washup' may not necessarily reflect this.

I wonder if the same impetus applies to recruiting hetrosexual white males into HR and cabin crew roles, or have I overstepped a PC line with such thiughts?

bafanguy
18th Apr 2018, 11:24
What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.

This issue is the same regardless of the country or airline.

It presumes what happens in the panel interview is unfailingly, unequivocally objective and uniformly applied without bias or influence. Not sure I'd bet the grocery money on that one as long as humans are running the process.

Sim ride ? Knowledge exam ? Pretty objective.

Panel interview ? Pretty iffy at its core.

framer
18th Apr 2018, 11:44
The choice is subjective and normally comes down to one person.

Rated De
18th Apr 2018, 12:14
The more inquisitive may ask simply how does discriminating actually fix discrimination?

Watching news commentary online a woman journalist lamented the lack of funding for elite level women's sport as a final match was played.
The strikingly obvious lack of a crowd is probably a reason why. Somehow the answer was from the female presenter, that funding needs to come from the men's sport. given a large amount of the funding available is derived from advertising revenue, it is disappointing that a somewhat elementary explanation goes unsaid.

IsDon
18th Apr 2018, 14:06
Something that seems to have gotten lost in this thread drift is the fact that female pilots have to undergo all of the same testing of their male counterparts. Yes companies may be trying to get more woman to interview ( which has increased because it is actually advertised as a career path and promoted far more then it was 10 years ago) but that is as far as any preferential treatment may go. What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.

True, women do the same testing as the men. Itís just that the results of that testing arenít given the weighting they should to determine the best candidate for the job, regardless of gender. The female candidates are not held up to the same standard as the males.

I was talking to an ex RAAF QFI who joined Qantas recently. He was involved in flight screening at Tamworth. Several times he had not recommended female candidates that had been given a job anyway.

On my nephewís flight screening intake one of the female candidates had a stress induced melt down and had to convinced to continue. This is one week into a two week flight screening assessment. How the hell would she handle a twelve month pilots course? No surprises, she wasnít recommended by the assessors. Guess what, she got a job anyway.

junior.VH-LFA
18th Apr 2018, 14:22
I'm all for more girls flying, but lets not pretend the standards at the current moment are the same, especially when there is so much evidence out that displays that.

Call a spade a spade, I would take the same opportunities if they were being thrown at me too and I don't think any less of anyone for making the best out of an opportunity that's being given to them; that's just common sense, but no one can pretend that's is a fair playing field.

Happy to admit it wasn't a fair playing field for girls the the previous 100 years though, something that is also overlooked, but two wrongs don't make a right.

IsDon
18th Apr 2018, 14:43
Happy to admit it wasn't a fair playing field for girls the the previous 100 years though, something that is also overlooked, but two wrongs don't make a right.

That, right there, spot on.

Iím all for a fair go for everyone regardless of sex, race, religion, or the football team you support, (all except Collingwood supporters of course. Some of them have just crawled out of the swamp.) but the fundamental flaw is you canít fight discrimination with discrimination. To do so does not solve the problem.

How would you like to be a female RAAF pilot who has actually achieved her credentials the same way we all did in the past? With hard work, aptitude and attitude. Iíve flown with some fine female aviators in my time and continue to do so today. They must quietly lament the short track thatís being offered to women today. Their head start cheapens the achievement of these very competent women of earlier times.

pilotchute
18th Apr 2018, 17:25
Interesting article frim a UK paper not long ago.

Father of 2 girls and university lecturer of engineering angry at his daughters high school for the borderline harassment his daughters received to choose STEM courses at University.

They achieved very good university entrance scores and qualified for most courses offered. Problem is they have no interest in STEM. "I have tried to get them interested but they just aren't". The oldest has enrolled in a business course and the younger in tourism.

The father beleives there is pressure from the Govt to push this because it makes them "look good" and scores points with many minority/pressure groups.

JPJP
18th Apr 2018, 20:38
What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender.

To be fair, without access to some very privileged corporate records. Weíd never know if that was true. Itís entirely possible that if only 10% of interviewees are female, and 50% of those hired are female, thatís how the cookie crumbled. But itís statistically unlikely for any demographic (race, gender etc.).

I completely agree that your statement above though. In that; that is how the world should work.

framer
19th Apr 2018, 01:10
Yes it’s how the world should work. Also, no crime, no war, no kids disadvantaged blah blah blah. It’s a fantasy.
Reality; After all the exams, personality testing, sim rides and HR panel interviews there is a small group of people who decide who gets a job and who does not. This group is made up of people no better and no worse than you or I. They have bias’s, they know what their boss wants, they seek an easy and assured path to promotion or longevity in their current role. They behave as humans behave.
To say What happens on interview day comes down to the preparedness of each candidate regardless of gender. is quite possibly one of the most naive comments I’ve read on pprune.

Roj approved
19th Apr 2018, 01:34
Yes itís how the world should work. Also, no crime, no war, no kids disadvantaged blah blah blah. Itís a fantasy.
Reality; After all the exams, personality testing, sim rides and HR panel interviews there is a small group of people who decide who gets a job and who does not. This group is made up of people no better and no worse than you or I. They have biasís, they know what their boss wants, they seek an easy and assured path to promotion or longevity in their current role. They behave as humans behave.
To say is quite possibly one of the most naive comments Iíve read on pprune.

:D:D:D:D:ok::ok:

One of the most accurate assessments of the interview process ever:ok:

dr dre
19th Apr 2018, 02:02
Reality; After all the exams, personality testing, sim rides and HR panel interviews there is a small group of people who decide who gets a job and who does not. This group is made up of people no better and no worse than you or I. They have biasís, they know what their boss wants, they seek an easy and assured path to promotion or longevity in their current role. They behave as humans behave.


That hasnít suddenly happened in the last few years. Thatís been aviation employment for decades. How many pilots got jobs because they were mates with the chief pilot, mates with the recruiting staff or because they came from the ďold boys clubĒ over the years?

Now into the topic of favouritism towards female pilots. The only way to know for sure that there is a bias towards women would be to see that the amount of females who are given a job is much higher than the proportion of women whoíve applied for that job. None of us have the actual application figures but Iíve had a look at this document:

http://www.australianindustrystandards.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/AviationWorkforceSkillsStudy.pdf

Now towards the end of the document thereís a breakdown by gender on the number of licences issued from 2010 to 2015. The number of females being issued licences has risen for all licence types over that time towards 9%, especially in the ATPL issuances. Now given this is the period whereíd Iíd assume most of the people currently being employed would have gained their licence, and having a quick perusal at the actual amount of new recruits who are male vs female (those in the know will know how to find this), the actual proportion of female pilots being given jobs is only a couple of percentage points away from the number of licences they were issued with in that time period.

Iím not interested in what various airline managements have said about trying to increase the percentage of female pilots in the future, Iím interested in the reality now. And the reality is, as far as I can find, thereís no widespread discrimination toward females being offered employment over males at the present moment. The future will definately see an increase in the percentage of female pilots, as more are choosing to take flying training now. Iíve heard the average number of female enrolments in university flying courses at the moment is roughly 20-25%.

Oriana
19th Apr 2018, 03:21
I haven't seen a drive to balance out the gender inequality of ramp crews.

:hmm:

blow.n.gasket
19th Apr 2018, 04:14
Or honey cart drivers , either !

Gligg
19th Apr 2018, 13:22
A different work sector but I think well stated.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/gender-quotas-are-an-insult-to-women/19198#.WtiJBaB_U0M

C441
19th Apr 2018, 22:41
I haven't seen a drive to balance out the gender inequality of ramp crews.

Of course the prospective 457 visa applicants will only be accepted on a 50/50 basis too. :rolleyes: