France and Germany to push ahead with new joint MPA

[Lyneham Lad]

On Flight Global (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/france-and-germany-to-push-ahead-with-new-joint-mpa-447430/?cmpid=NLC%7CFGFG%7CFGFIN-2018-0410-GLOB&sfid=70120000000taAh)

France and Germany are to jointly develop a future maritime patrol aircraft (MPA), with a letter of intent covering the programme to be signed by the nations' defence ministers on 27 April.

Destined to replace the countries' respective fleets of Dassault Atlantique 2 and Lockheed Martin P-3C Orions, the new aircraft will be available to coincide with the out-of-service dates for both models, says the German navy. This is likely to be in the 2030s.

In 2017 the two sides indicated that they would seek a "European solution" to renew their MPA fleets, and would co-ordinate their capability requirements toward a common model.

Berlin has a fleet of eight Orions, which entered service from 2006. A recent operational readiness report indicated that in 2017 an average of two aircraft were in a deployable condition.

Germany plans to upgrade its P-3C fleet with new wings, avionics and mission systems, with the modernisation due to be completed by 2023-2024.

Flight Fleets Analyzer records France as operating 23 ATL-2s which have an average age of 23.8 years. Dassault is currently upgrading the fleet with new systems and sensors under a project running until 2023.

At the time of the contract award in 2013, Dassault suggested that the modernisation would keep the aircraft operating into the 2030s.

In its most recent defence white paper, covering the period 2019-2025, Paris indicated that it would begin the process of replacing the ATL-2s and intended to order an initial batch of seven MPAs.

Place your bets now as to who will win design leadership for this and the mooted Tornado/Rafale replacement...

[KenV]

It'll be interesting to see if they go with a small airliner platform, or large biz-jet platform for this requirement. Both France and Germany build small airliners, but only France builds biz jets. Will politics decide the platform, or will actual requirements drive the platform decision? It'll be interesting (and likely humorous) to watch this program develop.

[sandiego89]

....Will politics decide the platform...


I think that is a safe bet...


Hey can you fit a MAD boom on a A-400?:E

[Snafu351]

(and likely humorous) to watch this program develop.

But not as humorous as the KC-46 ;)

[BEagle]

Airbus has had both A319MPA and A320MPA initial designs in existence for years now. Personally I think that they should have based it on the A321, with additional fuel tankage in the centre fuselage, not underfloor.

And it does NOT need to based on some freighter version!

There's also the C295 + FITS, but as for biz jets, I pity the rear crew who'd have to endure being in one of those for hours at a time.

[VMD+12]

Remember that the German P3C were actually bought second hand from the Dutch when their politicians decided that they no longer needed MPA so they are nowhere near as new as the phrase entered service in 2003 suggests. No wonder they need major refurbishment and an upgrade in the near future.

[George K Lee]

Will politics decide the platform, or will actual requirements drive the platform decision?

Right. As if an A320-based platform would have been a starter in MMA.

However - the first question is "what are the targets and where are they?" If part of the answer is "submarines", the second is "Do we believe that this high-altitude ASW stuff works?"

[Jackonicko]

"as for biz jets, I pity the rear crew who'd have to endure being in one of those for hours at a time."

Swordfish (Global 6000-based) looks pretty compelling to me, I have to say.

However - the first question is "what are the targets and where are they?" If part of the answer is "submarines", the second is "Do we believe that this high-altitude ASW stuff works?"

It clearly isn't working yet, as the various P-8 OT&E reports seem to indicate. But high-powered, highly-paid RAF people seem confident that it will work by the time we need it to, let alone by the time that the French and Germans will need it.

I guess the same is true of MAC (Multistatic Active Coherent)……. Though that also seems to be a little way away.

[KenV]

Will politics decide the platform, or will actual requirements drive the platform decision?

Right. As if an A320-based platform would have been a starter in MMA.
May I ask why an A320 based MMA is out of the question?

[keesje]

It seems the German Kriegsmarine ended their P-3C Orion MPA Modernization Program.

That puts more euros behind a new European MPA program. Include Italian, Spanish and other air force as potential participants.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/06/german-mod-ends-p-3c-orion-mpa-modernization-program-seeking-alternative/

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1593702193_25a07d3e8f928e11b267a621eeea81e68546cfa9.jpeg
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/06/german-mod-ends-p-3c-orion-mpa-modernization-program-seeking-alternative/

I guess for coastal, mediterranean requirements an ATR42, CN295 like platform would be a good, for longer range missions maybe something new.

If I had to configure a 2030-2060 atlantic MPA, it probably wouldn't look like a P3C, Atlantique, A320 or P8.

The technology & operational environment changed too much since the cold war.

[SLXOwft]

@keesje we went over some of this on ORAC's German MPA thread in mid June - Germany appears to be looking at an interim solution. I think Italy is probably a non-starter as they started aquiring 4 P-72As (based on ATR) in 2017 to replace their Atlantiques. I believe they already have 3.
P-72A Maritime Surveillance Aircraft Replaces Italy's P1150 Atlantic MPA (https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/september-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5583-p-72a-maritime-surveillance-aircraft-replaces-italy-s-p1150-atlantic-mpa.html)

The other thread can be found at
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/633320-german-mpa.html or page 3 of this forum

Mods - is it worth merging the two? (and merging the multiple Aussie defence spending threads as well?)

[keesje]

SLXOwft, it would be great if the threads are combined.

But it seems the other ones are about the German Orion replacement and the Italian program.

There are the French , Spanish, Nordic requirements and probably some Asian programs.

It seems a European program likelyhood is growing.

The engineering departments who did the A400M, Eurofighter, A350, design and development need meat, to keep design capabilities in house longer term.

An 737 or A320 variant kind of aircraft might no longer be what is needed. Payload-range space and speed are good.

But probably too large for the crew and systems, it can't stop pirats, transfer fuel to other MPA's or helicopters, are not strong in loitering at low speeds at sea level, or facilitate guns/DEW weapons.

Using existing cockpit like A400M, existing engines and system might reduce the risks.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1323x709/mrpa_20mpa_5eb783be84e74937f29ea12cd982af7dbd997006.jpg

[GlobalNav]

How do I get that fly off my screen?

[exhorder]

Please, keesje, just stop infiltrating this forum with the same fantasy land stories that you post on airliners.net. Please.

As far as I know, the Franco-German MPA replacement program could, but does not have to result in a new aircraft. In theory, they could just decide to jointly buy Poseidons, although we all know how unlikely this would be.

Kawasaki, in turn, has proposed its own P-1 as a base for a new development, essentially a P-1 shell with European avionics and electronics. That could be another approach, but again, right now it is too early to tell.

[keesje]

Please, keesje, just stop infiltrating this forum with the same fantasy land stories that you post on airliners.net. Please.

As far as I know, the Franco-German MPA replacement program could, but does not have to result in a new aircraft. In theory, they could just decide to jointly buy Poseidons, although we all know how unlikely this would be.

Kawasaki, in turn, has proposed its own P-1 as a base for a new development, essentially a P-1 shell with European avionics and electronics. That could be another approach, but again, right now it is too early to tell.

Hi exhorder, what is your name on airliners.net? I / we don't know.

As you say I posted this concept more then a decade ago at pprune, during the Nimrod NG discussions and I think a new design is becoming more and more likely.
During the week-end I digged up the old file, I reviewed the old concept and concluded fuel capacity was to low, wing loading too high & I included low risk, existing props, the TP400's.

You suggest the Kawasaki P1, that seems a very unlikely and expensive option for the European air forces.
It has 4 dedicated odd ball engines and the Japanese haven't exported any militairy aircraft since .. nobody knows.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1919x1054/1920px_p_8a_of_vp_5_and_japanese_kawasaki_p_1_at_naf_atsugi_ in_2014_75e3c8f361352acbcee49b87bbae08454d345a12.jpg
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Kawasaki_P-1


Last year I talked to people who were with a P1 when it visited Paris. It's a totally Japanese project and even basic communication is a challenge.
An European order seems really far sought, exhorder.

A European platform is becoming much more likely, the operational requirements changed during the last decades.
Also I doubt a 737 / A320 or C295 based platform meets the requirements for replacing Atlantiques, Orions.

[Asturias56]

4 engines! Why???

[exhorder]

Hi exhorder, what is your name on airliners.net? I / we don't know.

As you say I posted this concept more then a decade ago at pprune, during the Nimrod NG discussions and I think a new design is becoming more and more likely.
During the week-end I digged up the old file, I reviewed the old concept and concluded fuel capacity was to low, wing loading too high & I included low risk, existing props, the TP400's.

A concept which has no connection whatsoever with reality. The planned ISD for the new MPA is 2035, which is rather ambitious if you want a clean-sheet airframe. In addition, we are talking about a very limited market here, making a clean sheet even less appealing. France and Germany would maybe buy 40 to 50 aircraft between them. The rest of Western Europe, MPA-wise, has more or less gone all P-8. Export chances beyond that are rather slim as well, considering the small market and tough competition from Boeing, existing C-295/ATR72-based aircraft and P-3 refurbishments, among others.

Why you included a picture of the two planes, adding nothing to the discussion at hand, is beyond me, but that is your usual MO at airliners as well. By the way, I don't have an account there, I just occasionally browse through some forum discussions.


Last year I talked to people who were with a P1 when it visited Paris. It's a totally Japanese project and even basic communication is a challenge.
An European order seems really far sought, exhorder.

If we are talking about the P-1 "as is", I totally agree. However, during their visits to Paris, Berlin and Nordholz in 2018, the Japanese proposed the P-1 airframe as the base for a "Europeanized" variant (https://augengeradeaus.net/2018/08/neuer-deutsch-franzoesischer-seefernaufklaerer-japan-als-dritter-im-bunde/), essentially offering to provide the complete blueprints and most of the source codes as well. Whether such an aircraft would fit the bill is to be seen, however, I would not completely rule it out.

A European platform is becoming much more likely, the operational requirements changed during the last decades.
Also I doubt a 737 / A320 or C295 based platform meets the requirements for replacing Atlantiques, Orions.

Do you know these requirements in detail? What can be gathered from German official documents, at least, almost screams "Poseidon". A320 and P-1-based aircraft could fit that description, as well. Slower, low-flying turboprops are, at best, a possible stop-gap for the upcoming replacement of the P-3C fleet.

[Asturias56]

"France and Germany would maybe buy 40 to 50 aircraft between them."

What are they currently running ? About 30 MPA I think - can't see them buying more than that TBH

[petit plateau]

Does the opportunity to create a military-spec A320, using a 30-40 unit buy by the French/Germans for a MMA, bring further opportunities into play ? Such as for AEW, ESM, etc ? After all once the basic airframe & systems militarisation launch costs have been carried, then role-specific costs become a lesser inhibitor.

(I'm not sure I buy all the hype about shifting operators out of the aircraft for these sorts of things. Bandwidth is a scarce commodity, even in a Starlink world.)

[keesje]

Do you know these requirements in detail? What can be gathered from German official documents, at least, almost screams "Poseidon". A320 and P-1-based aircraft could fit that description, as well. Slower, low-flying turboprops are, at best, a possible stop-gap for the upcoming replacement of the P-3C fleet.

I remember the missions flown in the past, but I don't know how the Germans used them. We seldom went high and fast. Mostly speed set at 250 kts(?), at 1500 ft or so. Agree on smaller interim props, off the shelve CN295 seems perfect for Baltic, Northsea.

[exhorder]

"France and Germany would maybe buy 40 to 50 aircraft between them."

What are they currently running ? About 30 MPA I think - can't see them buying more than that TBH

Seems about right. However, I could imagine them buying a couple more, in order to support the defense industry. Wouldn't be the first time.

@keesje: We still use them the same way. Now, I am no expert in Naval matters, but according to what I heard from the Nordholz guys, the old way does not seem to cut it anymore. It may be acceptable for counter-piracy missions and the like, but less so in a peer-to-peer scenario.

[SLXOwft]

My understanding is the Bundesmarine has 8 P-3s and the Aeronavale 18 modernised ATL-2s (the 2012 upgrade was aimed at allowing an intended OSD c.2032). (Don't know where l'Aero's Falcons fit in to all this.) If the UK and Italy are any guide the replacements will be in much smaller numbers; so its hard to see anything other than off the shelf with, perhaps, some home grown mission equipment.

In 2017 eight NATO members (including France, Germany, Canada, Poland, Italy, Spain, Turkey and Greece) agreed to cooperate on “multinational maritime multi-mission aircraft capabilities”. Don't know if this initiative is still current. As I mentioned of the other thread Turkey and Italy both have ATR-72 based MPAs, Portugal, Spain and Canada operate CN-295s though only the first as MPAs. I also presume Spain's P-3As and ex RNoAF P3-Ms haven't got a long future.

According to an April 2019 article in Jane's Defence Weekly, Boeing was pushing the P-8 to various groups of NATO countries as a temporary stop gap "until the alliance secures its own maritime capabilities by 2035". Methinks, "until 2035 my ar$3 !"

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/04/12/france-offers-germany-four-atlantic-2-maritime-patrol-aircraft/

France offers Germany four Atlantic 2 maritime patrol aircraft

COLOGNE, Germany — The French Armed Force Ministry has offered four Breguet Atlantic 2 planes to plug a looming gap in the German Navy’s anti-submarine capabilities, provided that Berlin springs for modernizing the planes.

“Depending on Germany’s needs, the four planes could be sold once the update to Standard 6 will be taken in charge by Germany,” a French defense spokesperson wrote in an email to Defense News.

“The four planes will be at the latest aircraft standard which successfully passed the initial operational capability milestone of the French navy in 2020, with a range of high-tech equipment for maritime patrol missions,” the email read. “The proposal includes training and maintenance.”

The ministry declined to specify a price tag for the offer. Weapons and countermeasures would be “processed in a second step,” the email stated.

Driving the French offer is a desire to keep Germany connected to the future Maritime Airborne Warfare System that the two countries want to jointly develop for fielding around 2035. But the German sea service needs new planes by 2025, the year the current P-3 Orion fleet is slated to reach the end of its serviceable life.

Defense officials in Berlin have yet to make up their minds about which aircraft they plan to propose to lawmakers for funding in the decade between. A spokesman said a decision was due before parliament goes on recess for the summer in late June.

According to the French ministry, the Atlantic 2 offer is “based on operational cooperation,” with negotiations continuing between the two navies and civilian defense leadership.

A German Navy spokesman referred questions about the viability of the French offer to the Defence Ministry in Berlin.

Former German Navy chief Vice Adm. Andreas Krause, who retired in late March, had advocated for buying American-made P-8 Poseidon aircraft as an interim solution, citing on Twitter a mid-March Defense News story about the requisite Pentagon clearance (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/03/19/proposed-us-submarine-hunting-plane-prompts-hand-wringing-in-germany/) for a sale.

The new service chief, Vice Adm. Kay-Achim Schönbach, has yet to speak on the issue, according to the service spokesman.

[Davef68]

So the Orions, which replaced the Atlantic in Dutch service, then the Atlantic in German service, might be replaced by... the Atlantic!

[Less Hair]

Looks more like luring the Germans away from short notice ordering some P-8?
The dutch Orions were -known beforehand- structurally worn out but had nice equipment.

[Asturias56]

yeah - if Germany buys the P-8 the french will have to follow - there just isn't a big enough home market to justify an additional type

[exhorder]

Looks more like luring the Germans away from short notice ordering some P-8?
The dutch Orions were -known beforehand- structurally worn out but had nice equipment.

Exactly. This is France trying to save MAWS.

I am not sure about the odds though. The Deutsche Marine brass are clearly rooting for P-8, and there is that growing naval cooperation with Norway. We all know what MPA they went for.

Haven't heard anything about the Netherlands wanting to get back into the MPA business, but if they do, P-8 would form the perfect basis for another Dutch-German integration exercise. This is pure speculation, though.

[OKOC]

On Flight Global (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/france-and-germany-to-push-ahead-with-new-joint-mpa-447430/?cmpid=NLC%7CFGFG%7CFGFIN-2018-0410-GLOB&sfid=70120000000taAh)



Place your bets now as to who will win design leadership for this and the mooted Tornado/Rafale replacement...
Whoever, wins the battle do you think they'd sell a few to us? I just hope they are a bit more organised with this than their bickering over who gets the Covid jabs and when. Has anyone in Europe been jabbed yet or is it still with the EU Commissioner?

[Less Hair]

The german industry just got some seven billion Euro drone contract. They should be able to accept some P-8 order now?

[Asturias56]

"Place your bets now as to who will win design leadership for this and the mooted Tornado/Rafale replacement..."

No bookie would take your money - we all know the French will flounce out unless they get design leadership

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/05/04/german-defense-ministry-dismisses-french-offer-of-pre-loved-submarine-hunters/

German Defence Ministry dismisses French offer of pre-loved submarine hunters

COLOGNE, Germany — German defense officials have dismissed a French offer of four Atlantique 2 maritime patrol aircraft, arguing the refurbished planes’ expected readiness state would make them unsuitable for service in the German Navy.

Officials in Paris extended a proposal (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/04/12/france-offers-germany-four-atlantic-2-maritime-patrol-aircraft/) to their counterparts in Berlin after news broke earlier this spring that the U.S. government was prepared to sell (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/03/19/proposed-us-submarine-hunting-plane-prompts-hand-wringing-in-germany/) the German sea service a handful of P-8 Poseidon aircraft as a replacement for the country’s clapped-out P-3 Orion fleet.

It is unclear if defense leaders in Berlin have formally notified their French colleagues that they found the Atlantic 2-based proposal to be lackluster. Information about the conclusion first appeared in a letter last month from Thomas Silberhorn, one of the German Defence Ministry deputies, to lawmaker Christian Sauter, a member of the parliamentary Defence Committee.

German government-news service Behörden Spiegel first reported on the missive.

Silberhorn’s one-page response to Sauter, a member of the Free Democratic Party (FDP), suggests the idea of four Atlantique 2 planes wouldn’t even come close to plugging the Germany Navy’s maritime-patrol and anti-submarine shortfall, either for training or actual missions.

“The aircraft were produced as of 1984 and fielded to the French navy beginning in 1989,” the letter stated. “The condition of the proposed ATL2 cells was not specified by France,” it adds, using the acronym for the Dassault-made aircraft.

That language suggests a re-winging of the planes would be necessary, a tricky undertaking that officials here considered for a now-defunct Orion life-extension program before government auditors flagged runaway costs last summer, according to Sebastian Bruns, a naval analyst at the University of Kiel.

“If the French offer us a similar option, we haven’t gained anything,” he said. “I can’t help but think that they want to get rid of their aging airframes while driving a wedge into Germany’s prospective P-8 purchase.”....

[dead_pan]

Shame we scrapped all those Nimrod...

Whatever happened to Airbus's 319 MPA offering? One would have thought France and Germany would have pulled out all the stops to get these.

[bobward]

Surprised that, with the number who seem to be involved, they didn't go for a pan-NATO joint unit, like the E3 unit.
Just an observation from a non-professional observer.

[Less Hair]

There must have been some original plan to develop homegrown electronics. But this "need" can be covered with drones and FCAS so I don't see them finally procuring small numbers of A319 for this role now. And it makes sense to be NATO- and USN-style equipped. Still strange that they didn't get this going earlier with the Orions placed in between. They proved to be very expensive to get operational, got rewinged and such.

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/06/21/german-government-ups-the-pressure-in-11b-poseidon-purchase-petition/

German government ups the pressure in $1.1B Poseidon purchase petition

COLOGNE, Germany – German government officials are asking for lawmakers’ approval to buy five P-8 Poseidon maritime-surveillance and submarine-hunting aircraft from the United States before Washington’s offer expires by the end of the month.

The request is detailed in an information package compiled by the Finance and Defence ministries for members of the Bundestag’s Budget committee. The panel is scheduled to meet June 23 to consider a raft of last-minute, defense-spending requests before lawmakers head into the summer recess ahead of the Sept. 26 federal election.

As is the case with other large military investments (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/06/18/german-defense-ministry-seeks-53-billion-for-next-fcas-research-phase/) awaiting a decision, the P-8 acquisition would exceed current budget projections. The Defense and Finance ministries are negotiating an out-of-cycle budget increase to provide the necessary funding of roughly 1.4 billion euros, or $1.7 billion, through 2026.

The U.S. government’s offer for the aircraft, dated April 5, comes in at 1.1 billion. Taxes, training, spares and support make up remainder of the request to lawmakers, according to the document.….

[Less Hair]

The German parliament budget committee green lighted five Poseidons and to continue FCAS.

[NutLoose]

Not all happy families

Germany buys Boeing P8A Poseidon, France left in the dark (aerotime.aero) (https://www.aerotime.aero/28288-germany-buys-boeing-p8a-poseidon)


With this order, Germany becomes the eighth customer to acquire this multi-mission maritime surveillance aircraft after the United States, Australia, India, the United Kingdom, Norway, South Korea, and New Zealand.

The contract might come as a blow to the Maritime Airborne Warfare System (MAWS), another program conjointly agreed on with France in 2016. Indeed, the 22 Dassault Breguet Atlantique 2 (https://www.aerotime.aero/25703-russia-claims-it-intercepted-long-retired-italian-airplane) of the Marine Nationale are also in need of replacement. The joint solution is set to materialize by 2030.

The discussions between the United States and Germany took place without warning France, the French Minister of the Armed Forces Florence Parly told La Tribune. In fact, French authorities only learned the news when the US Defense Security and Cooperation Agency (DSCA) cleared the sale of the five Poseidon in March 2021.

Worried to see its partner abandon the MAWS program, France made a counteroffer in April 2021. It would provide 4 Atlantique 2 brought to the current standard (6), fitted with the latest generation equipment. But the offer did convince the German authorities.

[Davef68]

Noticed a German P-3 at Lossie this week - will they make use of the P-8 servicing facility?

[Video Mixdown]

Noticed a German P-3 at Lossie this week - will they make use of the P-8 servicing facility?
And maybe the simulators? Could be a nice little earner.

[minigundiplomat]

And maybe the simulators? Could be a nice little earner.

£38B maybe.....

[ORAC]

Reckon that finally finishes the idea of any other type…

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/06/03/budget-boost-in-hand-germany-puts-more-sub-hunting-planes-on-its-shopping-list/

Budget boost in hand, Germany puts more sub-hunting planes on its shopping list

WASHINGTON — German lawmakers today passed a €100 billion (U.S. $107 billion) defense budget boost (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/05/31/german-government-tees-up-108-billion-defense-boost-for-a-vote/), initiating a major spending spree over several years that is expected to include seven new P-8 Poseidon maritime-surveillance planes in addition to five copies ordered last year.…

Defense officials also have set their sights on seven of the company’s P-8 Poseidon maritime-surveillance and anti-submarine aircraft, the office of Enak Ferlemann, a lawmaker with the Christian Democratic Union party, told Defense News. German news website Nord24 was first to report the potential purchase.

Ferlemann’s district includes Nordholz Naval Air Base, where the country would base the planes.

The list of investment priorities attached to the special fund bill doesn’t mention P-8s by name, saying only that an unspecific number of additional planes in the maritime-surveillance category should be bought. Defense officials did not return a request for comment on Friday afternoon.

German lawmakers last year approved (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/09/29/boeing-gets-nod-to-start-building-germanys-p-8-anti-submarine-aircraft/) the purchase of five Poseidons for about $1.6 billion.

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/01/23/france-seeds-its-own-maritime-patrol-aircraft-program/

France seeds its own maritime-patrol aircraft program

STUTTGART, Germany — France is forging ahead to study options for a future maritime patrol aircraft platform, while presumably still partnering with neighbor Germany on a joint program with the same goal announced nearly six years ago.

The French military procurement agency Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA) announced Jan. 12 that it awarded two contracts for industry heavies Airbus Defence & Space and Dassault Aviation to examine potential replacements for its current maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) fleet.

The 18-month studies, awarded in late December and each worth €10.9 million (U.S. $11.80 million), will focus on the suitability of Airbus’ A320neo and Dassault’s Falcon 10X platforms to replace France’s decades-old Atlantique ATL2 MPAs. The DGA hopes to launch a procurement program by 2026 and field a future maritime patrol aircraft – or “Patmar” as the agency calls it, for the French “système de patrouille maritime du futur” – by the 2030s.

The announcement places yet another question mark over the status of the Maritime Airborne Warfare System (MAWS) effort, launched by France and Germany in 2017 with the goal of developing a European-designed manned aircraft for maritime patrol missions, to fly by 2035…..

[ORAC]

Dated mid-Oct, just picked it up.

https://x.com/alexluck9/status/1722965556431892813?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


Goodbye MAWS I guess. Not super unexpected, the FMI enquiry was known before. The question was always going to be the money. But it looks like Germany is now on track to replace P-3C 1:1 with P-8A.

https://defensearchives.de/news/german-navy-to-acquire-additional-p-8-poseidons/

German Navy to acquire 3 additional P-8 Poseidon aircraft

Information has surfaced about the German Navy’s plans to acquire 3 additional Boeing P-8 Poseidon Maritime Patrole Aircraft (MPA) via a modification of an existing contract, with 5 aircraft currently on order.

The existing Foreign-Military-Sales (https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/germany-p-8a-aircraft-and-associated-support) agreement valued at approximately 1.8 billion US Dollars foresees the planned deliveries of the P-8 aircraft to start in 2024.

​​​​​​​The current deal does not yet include the needed armament of Mk. 54 Torpedos or Anti-Ship Guided Missiles. Support infrastructure like simulators and local production agreements for small parts of the aircraft have been made.

The approval for the budget of the additional aircraft will be given next week on October 15 or 16.

[mahogany bob]

However - the first question is "what are the targets and where are they?" If part of the answer is "submarines", the second is "Do we believe that this high-altitude ASW stuff works?"
It clearly isn't working yet, as the various P-8 OT&E reports seem to indicate. But high-powered, highly-paid RAF people seem confident that it will work by the time we need it to, let alone by the time that the French and Germans will need it

REALLY ! somebody please say that this isn’t true !

[Less Hair]

Germany has money to spend as it is on the record to reach the "two percent target" from 2024. This is why they need expensive stuff that can be ordered right away.

[Asturias56]

However - the first question is "what are the targets and where are they?" If part of the answer is "submarines", the second is "Do we believe that this high-altitude ASW stuff works?"
It clearly isn't working yet, as the various P-8 OT&E reports seem to indicate. But high-powered, highly-paid RAF people seem confident that it will work by the time we need it to, let alone by the time that the French and Germans will need it

REALLY ! somebody please say that this isn’t true !


So what is the alternative?