France and Germany to push ahead with new joint MPA
Thread Starter
France and Germany to push ahead with new joint MPA
On Flight Global
Place your bets now as to who will win design leadership for this and the mooted Tornado/Rafale replacement...
France and Germany are to jointly develop a future maritime patrol aircraft (MPA), with a letter of intent covering the programme to be signed by the nations' defence ministers on 27 April.
Destined to replace the countries' respective fleets of Dassault Atlantique 2 and Lockheed Martin P-3C Orions, the new aircraft will be available to coincide with the out-of-service dates for both models, says the German navy. This is likely to be in the 2030s.
In 2017 the two sides indicated that they would seek a "European solution" to renew their MPA fleets, and would co-ordinate their capability requirements toward a common model.
Berlin has a fleet of eight Orions, which entered service from 2006. A recent operational readiness report indicated that in 2017 an average of two aircraft were in a deployable condition.
Germany plans to upgrade its P-3C fleet with new wings, avionics and mission systems, with the modernisation due to be completed by 2023-2024.
Flight Fleets Analyzer records France as operating 23 ATL-2s which have an average age of 23.8 years. Dassault is currently upgrading the fleet with new systems and sensors under a project running until 2023.
At the time of the contract award in 2013, Dassault suggested that the modernisation would keep the aircraft operating into the 2030s.
In its most recent defence white paper, covering the period 2019-2025, Paris indicated that it would begin the process of replacing the ATL-2s and intended to order an initial batch of seven MPAs.
Destined to replace the countries' respective fleets of Dassault Atlantique 2 and Lockheed Martin P-3C Orions, the new aircraft will be available to coincide with the out-of-service dates for both models, says the German navy. This is likely to be in the 2030s.
In 2017 the two sides indicated that they would seek a "European solution" to renew their MPA fleets, and would co-ordinate their capability requirements toward a common model.
Berlin has a fleet of eight Orions, which entered service from 2006. A recent operational readiness report indicated that in 2017 an average of two aircraft were in a deployable condition.
Germany plans to upgrade its P-3C fleet with new wings, avionics and mission systems, with the modernisation due to be completed by 2023-2024.
Flight Fleets Analyzer records France as operating 23 ATL-2s which have an average age of 23.8 years. Dassault is currently upgrading the fleet with new systems and sensors under a project running until 2023.
At the time of the contract award in 2013, Dassault suggested that the modernisation would keep the aircraft operating into the 2030s.
In its most recent defence white paper, covering the period 2019-2025, Paris indicated that it would begin the process of replacing the ATL-2s and intended to order an initial batch of seven MPAs.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It'll be interesting to see if they go with a small airliner platform, or large biz-jet platform for this requirement. Both France and Germany build small airliners, but only France builds biz jets. Will politics decide the platform, or will actual requirements drive the platform decision? It'll be interesting (and likely humorous) to watch this program develop.
Airbus has had both A319MPA and A320MPA initial designs in existence for years now. Personally I think that they should have based it on the A321, with additional fuel tankage in the centre fuselage, not underfloor.
And it does NOT need to based on some freighter version!
There's also the C295 + FITS, but as for biz jets, I pity the rear crew who'd have to endure being in one of those for hours at a time.
And it does NOT need to based on some freighter version!
There's also the C295 + FITS, but as for biz jets, I pity the rear crew who'd have to endure being in one of those for hours at a time.
Remember that the German P3C were actually bought second hand from the Dutch when their politicians decided that they no longer needed MPA so they are nowhere near as new as the phrase entered service in 2003 suggests. No wonder they need major refurbishment and an upgrade in the near future.
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: South Skerry
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will politics decide the platform, or will actual requirements drive the platform decision?
Right. As if an A320-based platform would have been a starter in MMA.
However - the first question is "what are the targets and where are they?" If part of the answer is "submarines", the second is "Do we believe that this high-altitude ASW stuff works?"
Right. As if an A320-based platform would have been a starter in MMA.
However - the first question is "what are the targets and where are they?" If part of the answer is "submarines", the second is "Do we believe that this high-altitude ASW stuff works?"
"as for biz jets, I pity the rear crew who'd have to endure being in one of those for hours at a time."
However - the first question is "what are the targets and where are they?" If part of the answer is "submarines", the second is "Do we believe that this high-altitude ASW stuff works?"
I guess the same is true of MAC (Multistatic Active Coherent)……. Though that also seems to be a little way away.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: netherlands
Age: 56
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems the German Kriegsmarine ended their P-3C Orion MPA Modernization Program.
That puts more euros behind a new European MPA program. Include Italian, Spanish and other air force as potential participants.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...g-alternative/
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...g-alternative/
I guess for coastal, mediterranean requirements an ATR42, CN295 like platform would be a good, for longer range missions maybe something new.
If I had to configure a 2030-2060 atlantic MPA, it probably wouldn't look like a P3C, Atlantique, A320 or P8.
The technology & operational environment changed too much since the cold war.
That puts more euros behind a new European MPA program. Include Italian, Spanish and other air force as potential participants.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...g-alternative/
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...g-alternative/
I guess for coastal, mediterranean requirements an ATR42, CN295 like platform would be a good, for longer range missions maybe something new.
If I had to configure a 2030-2060 atlantic MPA, it probably wouldn't look like a P3C, Atlantique, A320 or P8.
The technology & operational environment changed too much since the cold war.
Last edited by keesje; 2nd Jul 2020 at 15:30.
@keesje we went over some of this on ORAC's German MPA thread in mid June - Germany appears to be looking at an interim solution. I think Italy is probably a non-starter as they started aquiring 4 P-72As (based on ATR) in 2017 to replace their Atlantiques. I believe they already have 3.
P-72A Maritime Surveillance Aircraft Replaces Italy's P1150 Atlantic MPA
The other thread can be found at
German MPA or page 3 of this forum
Mods - is it worth merging the two? (and merging the multiple Aussie defence spending threads as well?)
P-72A Maritime Surveillance Aircraft Replaces Italy's P1150 Atlantic MPA
The other thread can be found at
German MPA or page 3 of this forum
Mods - is it worth merging the two? (and merging the multiple Aussie defence spending threads as well?)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: netherlands
Age: 56
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SLXOwft, it would be great if the threads are combined.
But it seems the other ones are about the German Orion replacement and the Italian program.
There are the French , Spanish, Nordic requirements and probably some Asian programs.
It seems a European program likelyhood is growing.
The engineering departments who did the A400M, Eurofighter, A350, design and development need meat, to keep design capabilities in house longer term.
An 737 or A320 variant kind of aircraft might no longer be what is needed. Payload-range space and speed are good.
But probably too large for the crew and systems, it can't stop pirats, transfer fuel to other MPA's or helicopters, are not strong in loitering at low speeds at sea level, or facilitate guns/DEW weapons.
Using existing cockpit like A400M, existing engines and system might reduce the risks.
But it seems the other ones are about the German Orion replacement and the Italian program.
There are the French , Spanish, Nordic requirements and probably some Asian programs.
It seems a European program likelyhood is growing.
The engineering departments who did the A400M, Eurofighter, A350, design and development need meat, to keep design capabilities in house longer term.
An 737 or A320 variant kind of aircraft might no longer be what is needed. Payload-range space and speed are good.
But probably too large for the crew and systems, it can't stop pirats, transfer fuel to other MPA's or helicopters, are not strong in loitering at low speeds at sea level, or facilitate guns/DEW weapons.
Using existing cockpit like A400M, existing engines and system might reduce the risks.
Last edited by keesje; 4th Jul 2020 at 21:37.
How do I get that fly off my screen?
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please, keesje, just stop infiltrating this forum with the same fantasy land stories that you post on airliners.net. Please.
As far as I know, the Franco-German MPA replacement program could, but does not have to result in a new aircraft. In theory, they could just decide to jointly buy Poseidons, although we all know how unlikely this would be.
Kawasaki, in turn, has proposed its own P-1 as a base for a new development, essentially a P-1 shell with European avionics and electronics. That could be another approach, but again, right now it is too early to tell.
As far as I know, the Franco-German MPA replacement program could, but does not have to result in a new aircraft. In theory, they could just decide to jointly buy Poseidons, although we all know how unlikely this would be.
Kawasaki, in turn, has proposed its own P-1 as a base for a new development, essentially a P-1 shell with European avionics and electronics. That could be another approach, but again, right now it is too early to tell.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: netherlands
Age: 56
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please, keesje, just stop infiltrating this forum with the same fantasy land stories that you post on airliners.net. Please.
As far as I know, the Franco-German MPA replacement program could, but does not have to result in a new aircraft. In theory, they could just decide to jointly buy Poseidons, although we all know how unlikely this would be.
Kawasaki, in turn, has proposed its own P-1 as a base for a new development, essentially a P-1 shell with European avionics and electronics. That could be another approach, but again, right now it is too early to tell.
As far as I know, the Franco-German MPA replacement program could, but does not have to result in a new aircraft. In theory, they could just decide to jointly buy Poseidons, although we all know how unlikely this would be.
Kawasaki, in turn, has proposed its own P-1 as a base for a new development, essentially a P-1 shell with European avionics and electronics. That could be another approach, but again, right now it is too early to tell.
As you say I posted this concept more then a decade ago at pprune, during the Nimrod NG discussions and I think a new design is becoming more and more likely.
During the week-end I digged up the old file, I reviewed the old concept and concluded fuel capacity was to low, wing loading too high & I included low risk, existing props, the TP400's.
You suggest the Kawasaki P1, that seems a very unlikely and expensive option for the European air forces.
It has 4 dedicated odd ball engines and the Japanese haven't exported any militairy aircraft since .. nobody knows.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Kawasaki_P-1
Last year I talked to people who were with a P1 when it visited Paris. It's a totally Japanese project and even basic communication is a challenge.
An European order seems really far sought, exhorder.
A European platform is becoming much more likely, the operational requirements changed during the last decades.
Also I doubt a 737 / A320 or C295 based platform meets the requirements for replacing Atlantiques, Orions.
Last edited by keesje; 6th Jul 2020 at 09:44.
4 engines! Why???
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi exhorder, what is your name on airliners.net? I / we don't know.
As you say I posted this concept more then a decade ago at pprune, during the Nimrod NG discussions and I think a new design is becoming more and more likely.
During the week-end I digged up the old file, I reviewed the old concept and concluded fuel capacity was to low, wing loading too high & I included low risk, existing props, the TP400's.
As you say I posted this concept more then a decade ago at pprune, during the Nimrod NG discussions and I think a new design is becoming more and more likely.
During the week-end I digged up the old file, I reviewed the old concept and concluded fuel capacity was to low, wing loading too high & I included low risk, existing props, the TP400's.
Why you included a picture of the two planes, adding nothing to the discussion at hand, is beyond me, but that is your usual MO at airliners as well. By the way, I don't have an account there, I just occasionally browse through some forum discussions.
Do you know these requirements in detail? What can be gathered from German official documents, at least, almost screams "Poseidon". A320 and P-1-based aircraft could fit that description, as well. Slower, low-flying turboprops are, at best, a possible stop-gap for the upcoming replacement of the P-3C fleet.
"France and Germany would maybe buy 40 to 50 aircraft between them."
What are they currently running ? About 30 MPA I think - can't see them buying more than that TBH
What are they currently running ? About 30 MPA I think - can't see them buying more than that TBH
Does the opportunity to create a military-spec A320, using a 30-40 unit buy by the French/Germans for a MMA, bring further opportunities into play ? Such as for AEW, ESM, etc ? After all once the basic airframe & systems militarisation launch costs have been carried, then role-specific costs become a lesser inhibitor.
(I'm not sure I buy all the hype about shifting operators out of the aircraft for these sorts of things. Bandwidth is a scarce commodity, even in a Starlink world.)
(I'm not sure I buy all the hype about shifting operators out of the aircraft for these sorts of things. Bandwidth is a scarce commodity, even in a Starlink world.)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: netherlands
Age: 56
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you know these requirements in detail? What can be gathered from German official documents, at least, almost screams "Poseidon". A320 and P-1-based aircraft could fit that description, as well. Slower, low-flying turboprops are, at best, a possible stop-gap for the upcoming replacement of the P-3C fleet.