Has the glamour gone...

[Chocks Away]

Has the glamour gone out of aviation? (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/opinion-has-the-glamour-gone-out-of-aviation-447381/)... yes, sadly. :hmm:

[LeadSled]

Folks,
That happened a long time ago, when air travel became affordable to other than the very wealthy, or someone else was paying the bill.
Tootle pip!!

[Herod]

A First Officer said to me many years ago, "you had the golden age of aviation". My reply was "no, I had the silver age. I'm afraid you are going to have the bronze age".

That must have been over twenty years ago and it seems to have got worse since then.

[KRviator]

Dunno why anyone would pursue flying as a career these days myself. I gave it away over a decade ago when I saw what lay in store for a career, and I don't regret it in the slightest.

In talking to two different 737 pilots recently on opposite sides of the country and neither would recommend it as a career knowing what they now know. They still like what they do, but neither would do it again.

As I tell people who ask me about flying now, if you want to enjoy flying, get a good-paying job doing something you'll enjoy, and fly for fun, when you want, where you want.

[DaveReidUK]

Slow news day ?

[Uplinker]

Yes mostly all gone now - unless one is very senior in a legacy carrier. I mean, yes, when one has finally got airborne and is in the cruise on a clear morning over the Bay of Biscay, or coasting in over northern Spain, then, yes it is still lovely. But those moments are relatively brief and becoming increasingly rare.

Problem is, we didn’t stand up for ourselves:

When the new FTL regulations came in, did we all go on strike?

When our pensions were reduced, did we all go on strike?

When our Ts & Cs were cut back, did we all go on strike?

When zero hours contracts and/or very low wages for new F/Os came in, did we all go on strike?

With our aircraft carrying more and more ADDs*, do we go on strike?

With (frankly foolhardy) fuel saving practices, do we all go on strike?

Answer; No.


*”acceptable deferred defects”

[maat]

BALPA - membership 10,000
URTU - membership 14,000
ASLEF - membership 21,000
BMA - membership 160,000
Unite - membership 1,400,000

Perhaps time to be fully affiliated with Unite. If red Len can choose the leader of the opposition, perhaps prime minister in future, I'm pretty sure he could have kept CAP371

[maat]

PS: By fully affiliated, I mean represented by on an airline level, national level and international level

[macdo]

A First Officer said to me many years ago, "you had the golden age of aviation". My reply was "no, I had the silver age. I'm afraid you are going to have the bronze age".

That must have been over twenty years ago and it seems to have got worse since then.

That made me laugh, thanks. I think a contemporary answer would be "You have got the Stone Age"

Air travel has been commoditised to the point where a trip to ALDI is more glamorous than a trip to the airport. How can anyone connected to such an event be regarded as glamorous?

[vapilot2004]

We're in the aluminium stage, with plastic on the horizon. ;)

Recruitment is a challenge, even for exotic, glamorous and desirable jobs such as pilot, engineer or air traffic controller.

:rolleyes: It might help to begin with the truth.

That sounds not so much like a career that ends with a generous pension, as a recipe for being left with nowhere to go when the next technology revolution – or the whim of a cost-cutting boss on a huge salary and hefty bonus – leaves you unemployed.

Demand for transport pilots is rising and they cannot seem to build aircraft fast enough, so I discount the latter part of this excerpt from this oddly written FG piece. The pension reference, however, is spot on - too often traded down the road in exchange for corporate profits and C suite dweller bonuses.

[slowjet]

Not really rumours or news. Other sites are showing the same dissatisfaction. Just look at the CX lot on "Fragrant Harbour" with comments from , those who dare , asserting that the golden era is well & truly gone.

[stalling attitude]

My dad has been flying for 61 years including a full airline career then as a flying instructor post retirement. Ive been airline flying for 30 years and we have the same number of flying hours. I think its safe to say he had the best years of aviation.

[ShyTorque]

I enjoyed flying a lot more when the fear of being shot down by the Warsaw Pact was less than today's fear of being grounded by EASA for misinterpreting one of their ever increasing number of rules.

[Optic Nerve]

Still better than working for a living...;)

[Humpmedumpme]

I spent the best part of a decade working in an office before becoming disillusioned with the monotony of getting up at 7 to commute to work, sitting next to the same people, having the same moaning conversations over water cooler/coffee machine/urinal then commuting home and getting ready for the same level of excitement tomorrow.

12 years after making the somewhat controversial and almost incomprehensible, to family and friends, decision to pack it all in and learn to fly I now spend 2 weeks a month flying to places I would never have visited and experiencing people and cultures so far removed from my previous life. It’s been hard work getting here but with some great flying experiences along the way - SEPs, multi pistons, SETs and multi turbines. Sure the money’s worse than my previous job but that’s about it.

I fly corporate not airlines. When making the decision of which route to take I couldn’t substantially differentiate between the monotony of my office job and the potential monotony of an airline career. I can fly anywhere, often at a few hours notice and have a much more rounded job than I perceive an airline job to be (I’ve no airline experience but you lot aren’t exactly gushing with positivity).

I’m sure back in the ‘golden era’ when there was a fight in pilots’ pockets between cash and hosties life was peachy. But I would rather fly my 2 year old Global Express at FL450 for a few quid less than transport myself back in time (I’m not sure exactly when this fabled ‘golden era’ was) to fly less reliable aircraft, with less reliable/accurate navigation systems into unknown/unseen weather conditions all in the name of glamour. When I walk through an airport in some far flung part of Africa or the less developed parts of the Far East the respect and ‘glamour’ (if that’s what you’re after) is palpable. Admitted going through security at the Signature FBO in Luton is a massive counter balance ��

Maybe it’s not so much ‘aviation’ that’s the problem but which part of aviation you’re in and how you got there.

[toratoratora]

My dad passed away last year at age 85, having flown professionally for 46 years, both military and civil. He spent all his civilian career flying round the world, drinking beer and chasing women- he told me that he really was in the golden age in the 60's and 70's- after that, it stopped being fun for him...

[John_Reid]

Pilots never have and will never stick together. We are a selfish lot and we deserve what aviation, for pilots has become. You reap what you sow.

[cessnapete]

As Opic Nerve says!!
I have a Relative who works for a big airline in the UK. Only has to navigate the motorway to work 4/5 times a month, quite often to nice warm places.
Stays in 4/5 * accommodation in town, with at least two nights off on the longer trips.
Flies nearly new big jets, with all the gizmos, including a nice rest area for the long trips. Comes complete with bunk and a Club type seat, and if you can't sleep now and again, there's an IFE screen plumbed in too.
Crewed up with reasonable blokes/lasses, all fully trained P2's, no partially trained Second Officer /Cruise Only pilots, as some Asian airlines.
Easy trip swapping to help plan family life when home.
And on hols, recently got a F/C return seat to S Africa for less than £200.
Obviously some disadvantages in frequent night flying and family 'disorganisation'. But earns quite a bit more than most friends in really boring pastimes.
"Horses for Courses" but probably better than a proper job!

[250 kts]

BALPA - membership 10,000
URTU - membership 14,000
ASLEF - membership 21,000
BMA - membership 160,000
Unite - membership 1,400,000

Perhaps time to be fully affiliated with Unite. If red Len can choose the leader of the opposition, perhaps prime minister in future, I'm pretty sure he could have kept CAP371

Or maybe look at Prospect which is where 98% of the ATC staff in the UK are members. They've had no really significant attack on T&Cs in the last 20 years or so. Strength in numbers. ATC and pilots together would have an incredibly strong say in where the industry goes.

[flyboyike]

Still better than working for a living...;)



Amen to that! There is nothing I would rather be doing, and the glamor is still very much there for me, and no, I'm not "super senior" at a "legacy carrier".

[aterpster]

As I tell people who ask me about flying now, if you want to enjoy flying, get a good-paying job doing something you'll enjoy, and fly for fun, when you want, where you want.
And, get a spam can that lacks all the safety and redundancy of a Part 25 jet airplane. Those spam cans are falling out of the clouds on a regular basis.

[ZFT]

And, get a spam can that lacks all the safety and redundancy of a Part 25 jet airplane. Those spam cans are falling out of the clouds on a regular basis.

A bit of an exaggeration don't you think. Very few accidents are down to the airframe.

[Jimmy Hoffa Rocks]

Since the 1980s, the class of billionaires, bankers, and owners has declared a war on workers all across the world, including airline pilots. Time to wake up.

Time to get organized more with our pilots unions. In terms of what used to paid to pilots, where do you think all the money has gone? Just look at the profits. Through union support and strikes we can recapture some of the glory lost. With our unions, we have the power, if we stand fast and unite. Imagine in Europe, the power, if all the pilots unions decided to hold a strike for one day, to protest our common concerns. Not easy but not impossible.

Pilots have seen their salaries drop while executive bonuses rise.
( Since 2008, the wealth of the richest 1% has been growing at an average of 6% a year – much faster than the 3% growth in wealth of the remaining 99% of the world’s population. Should that continue, the top 1% would hold wealth equating to $305tn (£216.5tn) – up from $140tn today. )

https://youtu.be/b1gX0SxtidI

[galaxy flyer]

Jimmy,

More like the real money has gone to the customers, fares are a fraction of what they were in the “golden age”. If anything has changed since the end of the Cold War, it’s making consumer king. We want more and cheaper; making that happen has lifted a billion people in Asia out of poverty.

The “old heads” heads at Eastern Airlines claimed, “jets ruined everything”. Gone were the days of a non-stop NYC-MIA, 24 hours layover and back, 4 times a month. My first corporate job, they used to take the DC-3 to Veradero Beach, spend days at a “meeting” and return. With the Sabreliner, it was a dat trip to HOU.

GF

[Less Hair]

The golden years from the early jet age might be long gone but there must be at least more aviation jobs than ever in history today. Including in remote places that never had seen proper airline services before.

Praise our times before drones take over the business - and all business.

[Mikehotel152]

If the so-called Golden Age was a time when passengers paid a fortune to ensure pilots could enjoy a well-paid sinecure, then that time has indeed ended.

The fact is that pilots still get paid well, even at the locos, when compared with other professions who work far harder for far less.

Is it glamorous? I don't feel glamorous on the flightdeck unless I'm wearing my heels, but is that in the slightest bit important?? If you became a pilot because of perceived glamour, you're not my cup of tea.

[mustangsally]

My side of the story, started in college, lived rent free in a farm house and when the farmer needs extra hands during harvest times we provided the manual labor. Our little town put in an airport and the FBO asked if I would mow the runways and such, and maybe pump so gas. He then offered to teach me to fly, love at first touch down. From there to the military and then a large 121 operation. Was a minimum of around twelve or more years to the left seat. Then that company went under, next came a offer to fly for a rich Saudi. Spent better part of three years flying the world as part observer of the rich and not so famous. Then an upstart logistics company, with a couple of classic 747's. Surprise, I finished my career there.


Early on it was all basic flying skills, a lot of hand flying and such. As the years went by, we became key board operators, load the route, taxi out, lift off, gear up, auto pilot on. Program the decent and confirm the approach is loaded on final, runway insight, click the autopilot off and land. Frequently I would hand fly up to flight level and maybe for another five or ten minutes, all the while enjoying a hot cup of tea. When I request the autopilot engaged you could feel the rest of the crew let out a breath. I enjoyed the art of hand flying.
Today, I have an old Champ in the hanger and enjoy flying once more. Did have to add some modern stuff, just to meet the minimums, but would love just to get back to needle ball and airspeed. Now that is flying that I enjoy.

[Reluctant Bus Driver]

Has the glamor gone? Obviously. But as a gig it ain't that bad. I bid reserve, fly an average of 30 hours a month and bank 20K a month. How many professions are there where you can work that little and make that much without even taking your job home with you? Is it like rock star Pan Am 707 captains back in 1965? Hell no! But there are worse gigs for sure.

[beamer]

I flew for forty years mil/civ before taking marginally early retirement. I could have gone on for a couple more years but the perpetual early starts or late night finishes were beginning to take their toll not to mention the constant huge changes in SOP's which had become really aggravating by the end. I'm not sure it was ever glamorous but then I never flew for a large flagship carrier. What I do know is that T's and C's were under constant attack and that some of the games played by mangement are an absolute disgrace. Would I do it the same again - no. Would I do it again knowing what I know now - maybe because I would hopefully not make the same mistakes and choices again !

[Ancient Mariner]

Just wait for flags of convenience and cheap "foreign" labour to take over, then let's talk about "Golden Age".
Happened in shipping, aviation next?
Per

[aterpster]

A bit of an exaggeration don't you think. Very few accidents are down to the airframe.
Takes a marginal airplane piloted by folks who get into weather over their heads. Seems like in the winter there is at least one a month that I hear of.

[SSDK]

Ehhh... Where do you actually get "glamour" these days? Banking? Medicine? Engineering? Tech? I think many of us are in a bit of a "bubble" when it comes to aviation. The decline in T&C's are present in most industries these days unfortunately. I for one do not envy my friends and family who has to deal with overtime, office politics and the dreaded (well for me anyway) 9-5 rutine! Before aviation I got to be part of all that and I will never ever go back if I can avoid it!

With that said, I can only recommend that everyone joins a union and stay active in it. I'm all for us fighting for better or preserved conditions. By the sound of it, a lot of people in this forum seem to be caught in really bad jobs out there...

I'm in Low cost (europe) with 15 years of flying experience and I still love my job. I'm well aware of the work/life balance issues that goes with it, but for me it's still very much worth my time and effort!

If you find yourself in a position where you have lost the love of the job or the industry, there is only one thing to do: ACT! You don't like the T&C's? You hate you colleagues? You hate nightstops? Do something! Get a new job or participate in the union work!

It will be a win/win for everyone! Your colleagues will be free of all the eternal moaning in the cruise and you just might find the spark that made you start in the first place! I know it's easier said than done, but what is the alternative?

I sometimes wonder if this mismatch between the "glamour" vs. "Reality" of being a pilot is due to social media, unrealistic propaganda by the flight schools or just an overall trend in our society. I mean, did anyone who did just 2 seconds of research really think that being a pilot contains any sort of "glamour"? It could be interesting to get a proper definition of that. It would certainly put things into perspective!

I know I might take a lot of Flak for being "too positive" but I really don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be...

[vapilot2004]

Since the 1980s, the class of billionaires, bankers, and owners has declared a war on workers all across the world, including airline pilots. Time to wake up.


Precisely right, JHR. Our capitalistic world saw a shift away from ethics and towards the unabashed love of money. That began in the states circa 1975, and was popularized (and normalized) across mass media. Business schools across the US slowly dropped requirements for ethics courses so that today, such study barely gets a few hours of indoctrination per student.

More like the real money has gone to the customers, fares are a fraction of what they were in the “golden age”.

Galaxy Flyer, I don't argue that fare wars were not part of the shift, but "real money" going to customers is a bit simplistic and one sided. If by "real money" you mean small sums were given to millions of paying customers in the form of lowered fares, I cannot disagree.

However at the same time, comparatively little of that "real money" in the form of substantial increases in pay, training, and benefits trickled down from on high, with most of it being the actual "real money" we should be speaking of, that which went towards corporate profits and the shareholders, and into the pockets of upper management.

Our industry has never been full of high profit margin enterprises, but the income differences between those paper pushers on high and the folks that actually do the work is and has been since the 1980s, dichotomous.

Put succinctly, unfettered greed has gone from a shameful pursuit to one to be (apparently) proud of.

[Gauges and Dials]

Talk to doctors -- they say almost exactly the same thing about practicing medicine. There's a larger trend at play here. Not sure I can name it precisely, but aviation is among many other professions that just ain't as fun as they used to be.

[ExSp33db1rd]

.......he told me that he really was in the golden age in the 60's and 70's- after that, it stopped being fun for him...

I'll second that.

Recall a couple of the ex WW II Captains reckoning that they had the best of it - after they stopped being shot at of course - in the early days of the present civil aviation. One then bemoaned the fact that in his youth the long distant Express train railway drivers were the Golden Boys, revered by one and all, but now they turned up in greasy overalls carrying their lunch in a tin box. That's going to happen to us, he said.

Has it ?

[ZFT]

Takes a marginal airplane piloted by folks who get into weather over their heads. Seems like in the winter there is at least one a month that I hear of.

Still somewhat tough to blame incompetence on the aircraft!

[wiggy]

his youth the long distant Express train railway drivers were the Golden Boys, revered by one and all, but now they turned up in greasy overalls carrying their lunch in a tin box. That's going to happen to us, he said.

Has it ?

Well if the tin box contains yoghurts, a flask of coffee and a juice box I think we know what the answer is...

As for the rest of it, and comments along the lines of how being a commercial pilot it is compared with other jobs...well I can see how things like in flight crew rest might make the job seem great compared with working a long day in the Square Mile but I’ve yet to see any evidence of glamour when I see colleagues reappear to from the crew bunks or cabin rest seat in the early hours of the morning...I must be flying with the wrong people......I guess some of the Instagram stars might manage it....

Good job...for some, yep....”Glamour” ..well even the celebs don’t generally dress up to go flying in F class these days, so you must be joking....

[Piltdown Man]

The glamour went the moment airlines believed they could make a few pennies more by cutting. By cutting I mean price, costs and service. Couple that with squeezing staff by getting them to do more hours for less pay and little or no additiional benefits. That started 30 years ago or more. But if you want to see wher the process started, look at the railways.

Travelling on an aircraft is just a means of transport like a bus, ship or train. The current bunch of muppets in marketing (identified by long pointy brown shoes, miss-matched expensive designer labels and obligatory pony tail) wouldn’t know what service is if they received it.

Cull the chief executives, tell the greedy shareholders to do one and sack the marketing gurus and then we might stand a chance. Only by doing that will flying on an airline be slightly less unpleasant than standing in a queue at an amusement park. And another thing to be disposed of is so called “VIP access”. When shaven headed, tee shirt wearing, bucket’n’spade travelling customers are in the alleged hospitality suites you know the world has gone mad. It’s now worth paying NOT to go into these places to avoid contact with the unwashed.

PM

[Less Hair]

If you still want the old style big impression you can still look for pilot jobs in developing countries. Have the FO carry your trolley through the hotel lobby six feet behind you, have wife and kids and grandma travel with you, wear handmade scrambled eggs stitching on the cap, have a smoke on the flight deck and such.
Maybe today's times in fact got better?

[pettinger93]

The old saying: 'if you think that something is glamorous, you don't know enough about it'
Glamour is always attributed to times past, never today. My background is 45 years in shipping. It often feels that 'it was better in the old days', but I bet that those living 'in the old days' felt exactly the same about their predecessors.

[RAT 5]

The 'glamour' discussion seems to have centred on 'the job'. i.e. the time spent sitting with an aluminium tube strapped to your backside. That hasn't changed much. T's & C's have been eroded, true; FTL's have made it less appealing, certainly multi-sector short-haul. Captain's status/authority/respect has been eroded in many companies. There was the time when you walked in an office, people looked up, said hello and listened to what you said. Now expect to be ignored and treated with disdain as no doubt you are bringing trouble and are just another worker, perceived to be overpaid. Short-haul is perceived as bus-driving.
My mates, for a legacy carrier, still have the glamour. They are taking an a/c + 00's of pax across the world. It is still seen as responsible, if easier than it was. Skippers do seem to have more sway when preparing a 'heavy' for a 15 hour flight than a little puddle jumper doing 90min sectors. My mate takes his golf clubs, kite surfer, paraglider etc., to the destinations he's bid for, and enjoys a couple of days R&R down route, having spent a few hours in the bunk en-route to get there. That is the glamour, IMHO, that one thinks of. It's still there, but the stop overs can be less than they were. Much will depend on the union agreements and will only be found in the legacy carriers. I used to fly charter to Caribbean, under old Italian FTL's, that gave us 22hrs off. Utterly knackering. My union mates enjoyed somewhat longer.
The glamour can still be there, just more difficult to find. Flogging the oceans for hours on end might be glamorous if you are an aviation/meteorology nut, but can also be deadly boring. Bring back the sextant/protractor/dividers and plotting chart and give you something to do, and perhaps the 'sense of achievement' might return.

[The Ancient Geek]

I never bothered with an ATPL, the writing was on the wall that driving a jet was equivalent to driving a long distance bus or a train but with less respect than the train driver.
Flying was much more fun and a lot more interesting hacking an AN2 then a Twotter or a Caravan around the game reserves. Every day different, great places and great people.
OTOH the African life is not to many people's taste.

[Double Hydco]

Last night it was tipping it down with rain, so I gave the bus company a call for some crew transport. They said they couldn't help, as they were busy transporting an arriving group, with children, who were too drunk to walk to arrivals....

....so yes, the glamour is long gone.....

[bloom]

The glamour was gone the day Pan Am towed their last seaplane out of the ocean

[aterpster]

Still somewhat tough to blame incompetence on the aircraft!
Too easy to write it off to incompetence. The typical light airplane is not a serious IMC platform except for getting through some stratus.

[RudderTrimZero]

The fact is about 90% of contributors to this thread wouldn't even have an airline career had it not been for the mass explosion in cheap airline travel (and all the nasty sacrifices employees have to make in order to keep it cheap).

In a parallel universe somewhere, most of us are complaining about having to compete with about 5,000 others for one job.

[The Ancient Geek]

Too easy to write it off to incompetence. The typical light airplane is not a serious IMC platform except for getting through some stratus.

Many light aircraft have an excellent instrument fit.

The problem is that few private pilots are instrument rated and those who do have an IR often do not fly enough IMC hours to be properly current.

A look at the accident reports shows that the vast majority of weather related deaths are attributable to VFR flights continuing into IMC. Getthereitis is still the big killer and Darwin will continue to weed out the overconfident.

[Sunamer]

Precisely right, JHR. Business schools across the US slowly dropped requirements for ethics courses so that today.

Really? So, 3 credit hours worth of ethics would instill it in students? This is not AIDS or ebola, which you contract by contacting a contaminated surface!. It requires a lot more to develop ethics, and it is not the job of schools to do that!

[vapilot2004]

Someone once said that a human conscience is an extremely fragile construct and it requires support from institutions, family, and society to maintain integrity.

It requires a lot more to develop ethics, and it is not [just] the job of schools to do that!

I agree, with the bracketed addition.

Really? So, 3 credit hours worth of ethics would instill it in students?

Not quite. It's a youth full of indoctrination. School, religion, society, one's family, and of course, the company one keeps - which leads to me ask you this: What do you see as the primary cause of the loss of ethics in the past half-century? I blame the slow societal acceptance of unfettered greed.

[Planemike]

The glamour was gone the day Pan Am towed their last seaplane out of the ocean


No, when Imperial Airways did it......!!!!:{

[PA28161]

Ehhh... Where do you actually get "glamour" these days? Banking? Medicine? Engineering? Tech? I think many of us are in a bit of a "bubble" when it comes to aviation. The decline in T&C's are present in most industries these days unfortunately. I for one do not envy my friends and family who has to deal with overtime, office politics and the dreaded (well for me anyway) 9-5 rutine! Before aviation I got to be part of all that and I will never ever go back if I can avoid it!

With that said, I can only recommend that everyone joins a union and stay active in it. I'm all for us fighting for better or preserved conditions. By the sound of it, a lot of people in this forum seem to be caught in really bad jobs out there...

I'm in Low cost (europe) with 15 years of flying experience and I still love my job. I'm well aware of the work/life balance issues that goes with it, but for me it's still very much worth my time and effort!

If you find yourself in a position where you have lost the love of the job or the industry, there is only one thing to do: ACT! You don't like the T&C's? You hate you colleagues? You hate nightstops? Do something! Get a new job or participate in the union work!

It will be a win/win for everyone! Your colleagues will be free of all the eternal moaning in the cruise and you just might find the spark that made you start in the first place! I know it's easier said than done, but what is the alternative?

I sometimes wonder if this mismatch between the "glamour" vs. "Reality" of being a pilot is due to social media, unrealistic propaganda by the flight schools or just an overall trend in our society. I mean, did anyone who did just 2 seconds of research really think that being a pilot contains any sort of "glamour"? It could be interesting to get a proper definition of that. It would certainly put things into perspective!

I know I might take a lot of Flak for being "too positive" but I really don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be...

There is no glamour in medicine, take it from me. Especially in hospital work; abusive patients and relatives, intransigent hospital managers, et al. GP work is boring unless you can get into private medicine. The NHS is badly broken so if any of you disgruntled airline pilots feel like a change of career, re-train as a doctor (if you're still in your twenties and have good A-level grades), or maybe an RGN or some ancillary medical job. I guarantee you'll want to be back flying commercially again pretty quickly. Several of my colleagues left GP work to train as commercial pilots and seem to be happier than at any time when they were practising medicine. I fly for pleasure and the day job is medicine: I know what I'd rather do but for me now it's too late. My dream of being an airline pilot is now lived out through my son who is an FO with a major carrier and who turned down a place at Uni to study medicine because he wanted to achieve his dream

[Brat]

For anyone looking for ‘glamour’ whatever that might be to anyone who looks for it. The old meaning was enchantment, magic.

The enchantment, joy, and magic of aviation, of flying, remains there for anyone who delights in being able to the air in whatever craft they have access to.

As far back as I am able to remember, my first flight in an Empire flying boat in Kenya at the age of three, and yes I remember it as clearly as if it were yesterday; to my first flight at the controls of a 150 from Hurn in the 60’s as a student pilot at sixteen, in the the ATC cadets at controls of a T21 at Tangmere, to the present time at the controls of a open single seat gyro with A/S Alt, and Compass I have thanked my creator for the joy that it has given me.

From Tiger Moths from Thruxton, Cessnas over the Congo, Zambia, DC3 and 4’s over Libya, Kenya Tanzania and Uganda, Lears, Sabreliners, BAC11’s, 727’s Citations worldwide. Instruction, land and sea, oil field support, bush charter, airlines, executive, and recreation, the ‘glamour’ joy and magic of flight has never left me.

It was never a ‘job’ it was a never ending source of pleasure and joy, whether paying for it, or being paid to do it, flight... ’to have slipped the surly bonds’... has never ceased to have a magic, an excitement, and a truly wonderful experience I feel blessed to have experienced.

[Timmy Tomkins]

For anyone looking for ‘glamour’ whatever that might be to anyone who looks for it. The old meaning was enchantment, magic.

The enchantment, joy, and magic of aviation, of flying, remains there for anyone who delights in being able to the air in whatever craft they have access to.

As far back as I am able to remember, my first flight in an Empire flying boat in Kenya at the age of three, and yes I remember it as clearly as if it were yesterday; to my first flight at the controls of a 150 from Hurn in the 60’s as a student pilot at sixteen, in the the ATC cadets at controls of a T21 at Tangmere, to the present time at the controls of a open single seat gyro with A/S Alt, and Compass I have thanked my creator for the joy that it has given me.

From Tiger Moths from Thruxton, Cessnas over the Congo, Zambia, DC3 and 4’s over Libya, Kenya Tanzania and Uganda, Lears, Sabreliners, BAC11’s, 727’s Citations worldwide. Instruction, land and sea, oil field support, bush charter, airlines, executive, and recreation, the ‘glamour’ joy and magic of flight has never left me.

It was never a ‘job’ it was a never ending source of pleasure and joy, whether paying for it, or being paid to do it, flight... ’to have slipped the surly bonds’... has never ceased to have a magic, an excitement, and a truly wonderful experience I feel blessed to have experienced.

Hear hear; I second that. That said the industry has lost its respect for those at the pointy end (and others), without whom it could not function, although the bean counters clearly wish they could.

[stoatsbrother]

There is no glamour in medicine, take it from me. Especially in hospital work; abusive patients and relatives, intransigent hospital managers, et al. GP work is boring unless you can get into private medicine. The NHS is badly broken so if any of you disgruntled airline pilots feel like a change of career, re-train as a doctor (if you're still in your twenties and have good A-level grades), or maybe an RGN or some ancillary medical job. I guarantee you'll want to be back flying commercially again pretty quickly. Several of my colleagues left GP work to train as commercial pilots and seem to be happier than at any time when they were practising medicine. I fly for pleasure and the day job is medicine: I know what I'd rather do but for me now it's too late. My dream of being an airline pilot is now lived out through my son who is an FO with a major carrier and who turned down a place at Uni to study medicine because he wanted to achieve his dream

Never posted here before, and lurked for many many years. But I feel forced too by this post... I’m a happy, intelligent, satisfied GP. I get involved in people’s lives, and make a real difference to them and do some proper high level medical stuff. I’m living my best life, coming to the end of a career I don’t regret and I’d encourage others into. And I’ve got friends who are satisfied hospital Drs too.

I have enough friends and acquaintances who are pilots to know that aviation isn’t always brilliant either. But who obviously love it still. If I hated my day job I’d walk, and perhaps some on this thread should think about where they are. Live is too short. YOLO etc... And patients and passengers don’t need people who hate their job.

The glamour has gone from almost everything, but there’s still fun to be had. In aviation and medicine we are no longer little tin gods, but there is still some respect, status and the prospect of a decent life.

Anyway. Back to you Professionals. I’ll tiptoe away...

[Callsign Kilo]

Glamour in aviation. Reminds me of an old black & white add with some twenty something Home Counties bloke riding off into the sunset in his Triumph Spitfire with his latest bit of fluff in the passenger seat. A VC10 stands graciously in the background. The advert was for BEA and BOAC and called on “exceptional young gentlemen..”

[Herod]

No glamour any more, but... "save me from having to join the commuter rush, and I will never complain about doing a walkround at 3 am on a cold, snowy morning"

That worked for forty years. :)

[Chocks Away]

Great replies all around and very entertaining reading so far, thanks. :D

[flash8]

My only glimpse at the "old life" comes from watching Airline Pilot on youtube, that film about VC-10 trainees... things seemed so much more personal then, especially the training. It was like another universe, however it was 1968....

I am not sure of the VC-10 training captains name now (I did look it up I was that enthralled), although I recall he was a WWII hero with a few gongs, but I'll never forget the way he came across, a true gentleman with considerable charm, deeply impressed me, even on film nearly fifty years later.

[Rated De]

From the antipodes it was an oversupply, junior instructors training the next generation of instructors, a landmass well suited to the aircraft. Regular Air
Force pilots finished their tour led to a ready supply.

Then there was a splintering strike in 1989, most pilots today were however not flying, yet the stories would resonate as the new guy heard from the old guy, be careful.

Pilots there lacked the stomach for a fight with references even today of 'that year'. The growth of the accountant driven Low Fare Airline, drove more of the Cost of business at pilots, who were still in abundant supply.

In 2011 the Qantas International pilots were involved with a protracted and what in hindsight was a manufactured and acrimonious campaign (by the company). The pilots had begun to forget 'that year' as the next generation began to inhabit cockpits and as the stories began to slip into the rear vision mirror, the pilots though it was time to redress terms and conditions. Maybe management knew this.

Pilot actions amounted to approved Industrial action which included;



Wearing a red rather than black uniform tie
Making an inflight announcement about Qantas pilots, tradition and the proud history

They and domestic Qantas pilots (separate contract) who were not involved in any industrial action were grounded and locked out.

The problem fundamentally is a denigration of operational jobs, be they gold miners or oil rig workers. For friends there (at QF) the last remnants of a career vapourised. To this day it is simply a job.

As the global shortage bites and airline management scramble for solutions that fail to address the vast power imbalance as it exists in most airlines, it is time, ever so gently for pilots as Ryan air pilots ably demonstrated to push back.

The good news is that the balance will be restored, not from a bitter and divisive fight, rather simple demographics. For once, pilots are on the right side. They need do very little other than watch in slight amusement as weasel words, then idle threats the appeals to 'professionalism' consume the working day of the MBA management class. This management class is going to understand that without pilots it grows increasingly difficult to secure Operating Revenue.

Maybe the glamour has gone, the holiday once started when one conceived of the destination, the hotel and went to the travel agent. The mind could be on 'holiday' imagining the fun weeks before one traveled. These days with the onerous Orwellian overreach of airport security, privacy invasion and that extra row of seats, one has to wait until the hotel or resort before actually relaxing!

The glamour has gone from almost everything, but there’s still fun to be had. In aviation and medicine we are no longer little tin gods, but there is still some respect, status and the prospect of a decent life.If one had worked in the MBA management 'administrative side' of airlines, one would notice that many love aviation. They just don't like pilots.

Having asked will get an honest answer on occasion that they 'wanted to be a pilot but..' It mustn't be nice to go to work every day with envy for others a constant companion. :E

[Huck]

Nice first post, Stoatsbrother. Don't wait so long next time.

[aterpster]

I have enough friends and acquaintances who are pilots to know that aviation isn’t always brilliant either. But who obviously love it still. If I hated my day job I’d walk, and perhaps some on this thread should think about where they are. Live is too short. YOLO etc... And patients and passengers don’t need people who hate their job.


Well stated! Exactly why I took early retirement from TWA just before my 54th birthday, even though I was a senior captain.

[Herod]

Having asked will get an honest answer on occasion that they 'wanted to be a pilot but..' It mustn't be nice to go to work every day with envy for others a constant companion.

I heard that so many times, and usually it's just b/s. Follow the "but" with "I couldn't be bothered to make the effort" and you'll get nearer the truth.

[misd-agin]

Remember the glamour of race car drivers being decapitated? Burned alive? Broken necks? Or when drinking and driving was more acceptable? Along with no seats belts, no head rests and lower seat backs that increased the odds of a broken back or neck? The good old days, we should miss them.

It was fun being young, with an low tech jet by today's standards, and flying with young single women. But miss the professional, technical, and safety standards of years ago? No thanks.

If someone wants to relive the 'good old days', if you can find a DC-3, DC-4, or DC-6 that doesn't have modern avionics or radar you get to experience the full retro event. No using satellite or radar for plotting routes. No delaying or cancelling a flight using *today's* standards. For the full experience of the 'good old days' you need to replicate the entire experience. And not just on a good weather day. Try it for 800 hrs, in all weather, in all seasons, and report back. I think few would choose the past over the present.

Years ago the filed routing was A to B to C than D. Every single flight, every single day. Today, using modern weather tools, I'm flying the same route but up to 500 nm east, or west, of the old route. And with real time, world wide, weather tools available in the cockpit along with data link and SATCOM communication abilities to a dispatch system light years more capable than it was years ago. And the engine failure risk has gone down from 1 in every couple of hundred hours to 1:1000's or 1:10,000's.

A friend has a 1960's V-8 muscle car. Stock. "It's a blast but it's a death trap. Steering is terrible. Brakes. Tires. I just putt-putt around town in it."

I'll take the lack of glamour days any day of the week.

[misd-agin]

Glamour days - "don't trust a guy who doesn't loosen his tie in the cockpit."

I had to think about that - wait a minute, *I* don't loosen my tie! But I used to...why did I change? And then it dawned on me, on newer technology jets (roughly 1980+, ie 757/767 or later), the air conditioning worked well enough that you didn't have to sweat yourself to death on the ground. So the tie is directly related to technology advancement and had nothing to do with the individual. Now it's rare to fly with a guy, on a modern jet, that loosens their tie because the air conditioning actually works on the ground.

[stilton]

Glamour days - "don't trust a guy who doesn't loosen his tie in the cockpit."

I had to think about that - wait a minute, *I* don't loosen my tie! But I used to...why did I change? And then it dawned on me, on newer technology jets (roughly 1980+, ie 757/767 or later), the air conditioning worked well enough that you didn't have to sweat yourself to death on the ground. So the tie is directly related to technology advancement and had nothing to do with the individual. Now it's rare to fly with a guy, on a modern jet, that loosens their tie because the air conditioning actually works on the ground.



While I agree that modern aircraft have far superior air conditioning
than their older counterparts I never loosened my tie in either one


The first thing I do after sitting down is to take mine off


One of the delights of not working in an office, I assure you
there’s not much glamour there

[aterpster]

The first thing I do after sitting down is to take mine off

I always used a clip-on tie.