Seaplanes

[Piper.Classique]

So, I knew this would be dangerous to the budget. One hour, 185 euros, not a problem. The problem is that now I want to do the rating. I suppose that was only to be expected, going by previous experience of "just to see what it's like" flights.
Biscarrosse, not too far from home, go for a week and fly nine hours. Well, eight, as I've just done the first one. They reckon the legal minimum will be enough. Eight hours plus test.
A super cub on amphibious floats. Nice. Mention was made of a seamanship exam. Anyone know what this consists of?
Maybe something to read? English or French.

[DownWest]

Think they might be talking about getting your powerboat permis? Instruction + handling test. Costs around €200-300.

[Piper.Classique]

Nope, they specifically said not. Is part of the rating. No requirement to be able to drive a boat

[custardpsc]

Seamanship exam not disimilar to air law. Warning - seaplanes are somewhat addictive. Please do post your experiences if you make it to Biscarosse.

[rudestuff]

For the above reasons - please do NOT share your seaplane flying experiences!

[Piper.Classique]

Tee hee. Well, I just booked a flight while I was on holiday. Just for the experience. And, well, it was such fun sitting in a super cub watching the little waves licking the floats, engine ticking over as I lined it up for takeoff, then swooping over the lake...
Five water landings, one runway landing, in an hour. Ok, I admit it, I was hooked. Boating in an aeroplane. Unless something truly dreadful happens, that's my autumn holiday sorted. Fly down with a tent in the back and camp under the wing. I'll tell you about it when I've been back. It's not really that expensive, compared to a boring DR400 at my home airfield. Sure, it costs more than flying my own cub, but someone has to buy and maintain the floats.
The airfield restaurant is pretty good, too.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Excellent, another life ruined after just one fix :ok:.

You think you will be happy just doing the rating, but within weeks you will be jonesing for another chance to experience the thrills of float flying, rationalizing the costs and time because it will only be just this one more time.....

I used to be a pusher......errr I mean float plane instructor. It started to get ugly when I started using myself:uhoh: (bought a Cessna 180 on floats I could not afford). Had to go cold turkey in the end.......

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I used to be a pusher......errr I mean float plane instructor. It started to get ugly when I started using myself:uhoh: (bought a Cessna 180 on floats I could not afford). Had to go cold turkey in the end.......
:):D:ok:


We're off to BC in the summer. We haven't got round to booking the hire car yet, but we've booked the floatplane tickets :ok:

[turbopropmike]

one of my first flights before staring the PPl was in an aviat husky on floats. How much I loved it! , ever since i got the licence i ve wanting to get back to seaplanes. Does anybody know if they speak English in Biscarrosse,everything on their webpage seems to be in French, but it´s by far the best deal in europe for getting the rating( and ive looked at many many places) plus the location is great,

[Jan Olieslagers]

The airfield restaurant is pretty good, too.

The one time I visited Biscarrosse airfield there was a restaurant, but I was told they only serve the local flying school. Has that changed or is there another restaurant, that I missed?

Regarding seaplane flying: there are precious few dedicated places in Europe, though it may be implicitly allowed in certain countries. Most "official" places seem to be in France! But recently my own country added one too.

[4Screwaircrew]

Great fun, I did the rating in a C172 on straight floats in Canada and now have a Canadian PPL, I’m looking forward to adding more time and types to the log book.

[Piper.Classique]

ENAC may have their own, but there is a small restaurant open to all near to the tower.

[treadigraph]

I had 15 mins in a Jack Brown floatplane J-3 Cub quite a few years - one of the best flights I ever had. We went 'gator hunting on a couple of nearby lakes and I doubt we ever went above 200'. I am amazed 65hp could lift those wellies and a couple of portly gents like me and my pilot!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I doubt we ever went above 200'
Me, as we scrape over a ridge at tree-top height: "Don't you have a 500' rule around here then?"

Floatplane instructor "Nah mate, I get a nosebleed if I go that high"

[irish seaplane]

I am amazed 65hp could lift those wellies and a couple of portly gents like me and my pilot!

I think they all have upgraded to higher power Conti's than the A65 at Jack Browns. There is a J3 in Ireland flying with the A65 on Edo 1140's which would require a higher skill factor so I hear. Looking forward to getting mine back in permit. An aeroplane that can't land on water is only 50% as useful to me where I live.

[Gipsy Queen]

Excellent, another life ruined after just one fix :ok:.

You think you will be happy just doing the rating, but within weeks you will be jonesing for another chance to experience the thrills of float flying, rationalizing the costs and time because it will only be just this one more time.....

I used to be a pusher......errr I mean float plane instructor. It started to get ugly when I started using myself:uhoh: (bought a Cessna 180 on floats I could not afford). Had to go cold turkey in the end.......

Certainly sea/float planes can be addictive but isn't flying anyway?

Many years ago I did a water rating in a Lake Teal, nearly all of it in the Thames estuary and having got the ticket, never bothered to use it as I had no real need for it. Never became really comfortable with the absence of brakes . . . .

However, more recently, I sat in the right hand seat of a Cessna 206 on floats for a couple of days flying in the NY Finger Lakes and Adirondaks which, of course, are ideal locations for such an a/c. Quite wonderful but dangerously resurrecting old addictions. I went home before I got into trouble.:D

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Never became really comfortable with the absence of brakes . . . .
Quite apart from the fact that not all landplanes have brakes, who needs brakes anyway? Engine against wind, tide and current, dead easy dynamic vector sums to do in your head in real time, you've got lots of controls

engine power (you can go below idle by using only one mag, or just blipping it on and off)
remembering that left turns and right turns are very different on the water, so that's something you can use to your advantage
all flying controls
water rudders up or down
wave the doors around to use them as sails
and probably some others I've forgotten ... point being that this is all dead easy because you don't have to worry about the slope, so that's one degree of freedom fewer!

Having said which, a sailing boat is easier to control on the water, and I have managed to bang a sailing boat into other things due to lack of brakes (which, fortunately, is usually vastly cheaper than banging an aeroplane into things).

Oh, and of course some floatplanes do have brakes, in that you can set the propeller pitch such that you can go backwards, but that's cheating really.

(FTAOD: this is a joke. I do have SEP(sea)(expired) but nobody has let me take one out on my own.)

[Pilot DAR]

and probably some others I've forgotten

Wing flaps and paddles.

But sometimes things just cannot be done on the water, where which brakes on land you'd be fine. I landed my flying boat into my friend's floatplane pond, which is a runway sizes slot, full of water. The wing was strong enough that I could not turn around to back taxi. There was just enough angle off of the wind that I could not sail backwards, without running the tail into shore (the rudder is delicate). Happily I do have an MT reversing prop, so I was able to back my way to the threshold, with the water rudder controlling my direction.

Seaplanes need a lot more space on the water than landplanes, which is usually fine, if you choose a larger body of water. A key element of water flying is that in most cases, the place you're going is not an aerodrome, and will have variables you have to detect and managed. And, you can land a seaplane into a lake with no land access, so if you have a mechanical problem, getting help to the plane is complicated. I have flown batteries and starters into remote lakes. And, in the worst case, you can end up floating injured in your runway.

Water flying is wonderful, but there are many new skills and disciplines to learn. And.... the insurance companies know this!

[Oscar Charlie 192]

And.... the insurance companies know this!

So load premiums accordingly??

[Pilot DAR]

Yes, insurance will be more expensive, if available at all. Higher deductibles, and probably the requirement for supplemental training. For this reason, it is sometimes the case that the flying school floatplanes may be rented dual, but not taken solo, or taken solo with restrictions as to where landings may be done.

I have been told that one of my amphibians would not be insurable at all, other than I have another of the same model already insured, so they could not really say no to covering the second one. But another fellow who bought the same model amphibian (I trained him) could not get hull insurance at all. When he wrecked the plane, he took the loss.

[Piper.Classique]

That's interesting. Biscarrosse specifically said they would let me fly solo once I had the rating. Maybe because it's actually a flying club and not a for profit school. I'm really looking forward to this! Thank you all for your input, I had no idea there were so many seaplane pilots here.

[Pilot DAR]

I imagine that you can fly solo at Biscarrosse because the operator there very closely controls the flying. In particular, because there are only two possible lakes to land in. They can give you a good briefing about landing in each lake as appropriate, and they can be confident about the conditions. Once they decide that conditions are suitable for solo flying, that would apply to all the places you could land.

I flew an amphibian across Europe with a friend a few years ago, and there are surprisingly few places where water landings are permitted. I think the Germany has four places. We headed to Lake Como in Italy, but they have very restrictive hours of operation. Had we landed, we would have had to stay for a day or two until the float base opened again. I did land in the harbour at Split, Croatia, though that required a lot of permission requesting!

The best opportunity for diverse float flying will be found in the Vancouver/Victoria area of British Coumbia or in Ontario. Anchorage is another good place to enjoy float flying.

Things are very different in other parts of the world, where you can take off one lake, and land in any of a hundred lakes within an hour or so flying. The lakes can vary greatly in size, condition, and hazards. I can take off from my home runway, and land in either of sic different lakes within a five minute flight. They are all different, and it could be safe to land in one or two, and totally unsafe to land in the others. One another day, I could safely land in any of them. Or, you fly in to your favourite lake in the morning, and by the afternoon, it's not safe to takeoff. More than once, I've been relaxing on shore, and decided to leave with no delay because of worsening conditions.

The local float flying school will let you fly solo in their lake, but no other lake, unless you've been checked out by their instructor in that lake. The practical reality is that although you might be checked out in another lake (maybe where your cottage is), you cannot practically rent the plane and "fly to your cottage for the weekend", because the school has to have the plane in service the whole weekend. So renting a floatplane to go somewhere is wasteful unless you can land there with purpose. You can use a landplane for a touring trip. If you're paying the extra to take the floats with you, you may as well make the most of it, and fly circuits!

[Piper.Classique]

Well, what you say is true. Of course, I could put the wheels down and land on a runway. Though it would also seem a bit of a waste....

[Pilot DAR]

Oh, right, you're going to fly an amphib... That adds two more factors: a useful load of bugger all, so it may not even be two people and full tanks. But, more critical, commit these words to heart: "Wheels are down for landing on land" or "Wheels are up for landing on water". Somewhere between downwind and base, you are responsible for looking at whatever landing gear position indicators are there, and after considering the landing gear position you observe, say the appropriate phrase, then look out the windshield, and confirm that the intended landing surface is what you just said it should be.

When I train amphib pilots, I'll let them forget to say the correct phrase once, and do it for them. After that, if they fail to say the phrase (accompanied by a meaningful check), I will call a panicked go around on short final - to purposefully scare them (and I actually make them go around, regardless of gear position) - just so they get it. Because no matter how badly I scare them, it will not be as bad as crashing in the water (ask me how I know!).

I extend this discipline to every retractable I fly, which includes wheelski aircraft. It's just good for pilots to do. When you turn up for training, and demonstrate to your instructor that this is normal conduct for you, the instructor will gain confidence in you immediately. No matter what other system or checklist there may be with the aircraft, the use of the phrase is your personal discipline which you use for you, to prevent you finding yourself floating (or drowning) next to a sinking plane.

That reminds me....I'll post my manifesto about lifejacket use from last summer next....

[Pilot DAR]

My writings from last summer:

So, the flight you’re about to fly has a risk of a water landing; this may be because it actually is a floatplane operation, or maybe that a portion of the flight will be over water, or with a water landing being the only practical escape (flying the shoreline of a city). You know in your heart, that entering the water is possible during that flight, are you prepared?

Lifejackets: Yup, got ‘em. They’re in plastic bags in the seat pocket behind you. Hmmm, if you’re being inundated with a gurgling mass of dark cold water, and thinking about how to get out, will you even think about searching behind you for a lifejacket? Could you find it, and take it with you? If you got out with it, could you don and inflate it, while struggling to remain afloat in the mean time?

Wait, the person you were flying with is just over there, and looks like they are struggling in the water, can you help them too? Oh, now you realize that though you’re out of the plane, you’re a lot more injured than you realize – your shoulder is broken, and your arm is of little use, your ankles are broken, you cannot swim – it’s getting more complicated…

But, you were prepared, you were already wearing the lifejacket while you were flying, so it went out the door with you – excellent! Do you recall how to inflate it? Your cell phone, to call for help, darn, it’s in your pocket, and soaked….

Recently, to my instant horror, I found myself floating beside the plane I had just been flying in, which was now sinking. I was calling out to my fellow pilot, as I could not see him. I had not exited the plane, I had been ejected through the windshield. I was wearing my life jacket, as I always do when water flying. My cell phone was in a waterproof bag, clipped to the life jacket, so when I was ready, and floating with stability, I could call for help.

Well, exiting through the windshield had not been an element of my planning. The life jacket was torn (as was I), and the cell phone pouch ripped off. While floating (well, sinking), I had trouble finding the inflate tabs, and my injured arm refused to assist. The manual inflation tube was perfectly positioned, and my right arm worked, so I blew breaths in to inflate. I did not realize that the lifejacket was ripped, but happily, it held enough air, that I could see the yellow pillow form at my shoulder. That modest amount of buoyant air saved my life. Then I passed out. Happily, I later learned that my fellow pilot was much less injured than I, had inflated the life jacket he was wearing, and was rescued with me.

I have the most brief recollection of a person I know telling me I’ll be alright, while hearing the sound of an outboard motor. I recall a glimpse of a fellow firefighter (I’m a volunteer firefighter in the place of the accident) telling me it’ll be alright, as he helped lift me out of the boat. One more momentary memory of another of my fellow fire fighters telling me it will be alright, while riding in the ambulance. Three days later, I came to, in critical ICU, with my family all around me, telling me how close I’d come medically to not making it. I know how close I came buoyantly to not making it!
And my phone? My wife called it for nearly two days. The waterproof case held, as it rung, and took a message, until finally the battery went flat.

So, my advice is consider your risks, and skills – if you’re flying over water, are you prepared to suddenly be in it? Injured? Needing to also assist your fellow flier? Have you practiced with a life jacket in the water? Can you exit the plane in the dark, upside down? If you chose to not wear the life jacket, can you find it, and take it with you, while rushing out in a panic? When I took the dunker course, the purpose of one exercise was to grab the lifejacket on the way out. With all the mental planning I had done, and single purpose to performing that simple task, three of four times, I left the inverted, submerged cockpit without out the life jacket – fail!

Prepare for emergencies, they don’t always give you much warning! The difference between my being rescued by boat, or being searched by police divers was my wearing my lifejacket, and managing to make the best of it, even damaged.

My advice for you from my life lesson five weeks ago…..

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Because no matter how badly I scare them, it will not be as bad as crashing in the water (ask me how I know!).
I was taught that the sure-fire (and only easy) way to kill yourself in a floatplane is to land an amphibian on the water with the wheels down (which I have, having absorbed this lesson, chosen to avoid by never getting into an amphibian). But it sounds like you know different. :confused:

[Pilot DAR]

I have about 700 trouble free hours flying amphibians. A few systems problems over the years, but nothing which resulted in an unintended landing. My student had the wheels up, and properly confirmed, when a sudden, uncorrectable handling error resulted in an unhappy event.

I was told that we should have died for the force of the event, and my wife was told I might die for a day or so, but I still had things to do, so I came back. Wiser.

Even though I have taught water and ice water rescue for more than twenty years, and have taken an underwater egress course, I am now expert at finding one's self floating next to a sinking plane, having been ejected through the windshield. Avoid.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

having been ejected through the windshield.
My only significant car crash involved the car rolling and ending up, via being on its roof, on its side in a ditch. I don't know how it happened, but I ended up standing in the road, unhurt, having been "ejected through the windshield".

[Pilot DAR]

Lucky you - the car did not roll over you!

I did not stand for four months after my ejection!

[Piper.Classique]

Good morning, Pilot DAR. Nice to hear from you.
I've never seen the point of a lifejacket stowed in an aircraft. Either you are wearing it, or it might as well not be with you at all. It hadn't occurred to me that it could get ripped on the way out. Though in march the water was quite cold enough to make survival unlikely, by the time anyone saw we were swimming.
The one flight I did at Biscarrosse the briefing included pretty much all of what you have posted, and in particular the undercarriage checks and evacuation procedures. And how to work the manual gear pump, available only from the front seat. The land airfield is only a couple of km from the lake, so first takeoff was from the runway, as was last landing. There is a ramp to get onto land from the lake, but it doesn't connect with the airfield where the hangar is. I flew a Super cub on amphibious floats. Gear lights (four blue, four green, and red in transit) and a mechanical indicator. Also a voice reminder of the gear position which was male for wheels down, female for wheels up.
And yes, I got to say the gear position twice per circuit.
The rate of climb wasn't too bad, two up and half tanks. Cruising speed I don't know, we didn't do any significant straight and level.
You haven't put me off, you know....I still want to do this.

[Pilot DAR]

That's great Piper Classique,

It sounds like you're on the right path to really enjoying amphibian flying with safety. Don't let my posts put you off, amphib and float flying is wonderful, I'll be back splashing in a month or so when the ice melts from our lakes. My posts are cautionary, do not be casual about water flying!

[Gipsy Queen]

Oh, and of course some floatplanes do have brakes, in that you can set the propeller pitch such that you can go backwards, but that's cheating really.

Tried that once in a Cessna 404 and it almost fell on its bum - that's because it did have brakes!:D

[Pilot DAR]

Tried that once in a Cessna 404 and it almost fell on its bumI used to back up both the Twin Otter, and the Piper Cheyenne, and that worked fine, as long as you had excellent situational awareness behind you. When I was flying the Caravan, the sales guy warned me to not attempt backing it up, because it would likely bang the tail, and cause $20k damage. I took his advice.

I got good at backing up the 182

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I1lNTcAdjI