Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines

[draglift]

Down route a while ago in my hotel room I found myself watching (once again) The film Those Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines which was made in 1964. I have always been interested in the making of this film. I understand some aircraft were originals, some were made for the film and some contraptions were doubtless incapable of flight and only "flew" due to cranes and wires that were not visible. Apparently there were 6 planes that actually flew and they were flown by 6 pilots I thought I might ask a few questions as although I have trawled the internet I have not found the answers.

I believe one aircraft landed on the Long Walk that leads up to Windsor Castle. I very much doubt anyone could jump through the hoops required to get approval to do that these days. Was it really the Long Walk or just somewhere else made to look like it? I know that what was meant to be Brooklands was actually Booker.

Does anyone know if there were any (unintentional) aviation accidents or incidents during the filming?

My favourite aircraft was the Demoiselle flown by Joan Hughes. Did that continue to fly after the film came out or did it only fly during the filming?

It’s a remarkable film considering it was done without trick photography. I suppose any similar film these days would fall foul of health and safety regulations, need hi viz jackets and would not get CAA approval ? Also much of it would be considered racist, politically incorrect . “There is nothing a German officer cannot do” etc. The film is another example of something that could be done in the 60’s but probably could not be done now. I am sure anyone involved n the making of the film would be quite elderly now and it would be a shame if any really interesting snippets, locations and anecdotes about the making of the film and the flying never come to light. So anyone’s experiences would be welcome. ( I have seen all the interviews of certain cast members and the director on Youtube.)

[Maoraigh1]

I learned to fly at Thruxton in 1964, but after the filming. I heard stories at the bar, but have no recollections. There were some kids around who should still be alive - I was 23.

[longer ron]

There is much interesting information and detail about the building of and the operation of the A/C used during the filming in the book - Building Aeroplanes for Those Magnificent Men by Air Commodore Allen Wheeler.

There is also a chapter about flying 'Those Magnificent Men' A/C in Delta Papa by Derek Piggott.

Great film which we watch occasionally :)

[treadigraph]

Agree with Longer Ron, both books are well worth seeking out. Derek Piggott is still around! Tony Bianchi was probably involved with those replicas built by PPS.

[dhavillandpilot]

The Demoiselle was in Melbourne Australia I think for the premier of the film.

My father an Ansett Captain at the time and 6ft 1 was In the middle of a conversion course and as the aircraft was in the Ansett Hangar tried his luck and got into it. Much to his consternation couldn't get out without much assistance and mirth from his fellow pilots.

[PDR1]

I've read that book on the making of the film and thoroughly recommend it. On the Demoiselle; from what I remember of the book it could only commit aviation with one very light female pilot (was it Anne Welch, or did my memory make that up?). All of the male pilots were too heavy and couldn't persuade it to lift off!

PDR

[Airclues]

(was it Anne Welch, or did my memory make that up?).

I believe that it was Joan Hughes, as stated by draglift (she was the CFI at Booker at the time).

[draglift]

The director Ken Annakin said that Joan Hughes was great and that the best pilot had been a cropduster in Rhodesia. I was amused that he said the worst pilot and the one they were always having a bit of trouble with had flown Comets. As 1964 was just before Dan Air acquired Comets this would imply he was a BOAC pilot.

[golfbananajam]

I believe that many were originals belonging to The Shuttleworth Collection at Old Warden

Shuttleworth | The Shuttleworth Collection at Old Warden Aerodrome, the Swiss Garden - a great visitor attraction! (http://www.shuttleworth.org/)

[vctenderness]

I should be able to answer the question as I was actually in the film!

However I was very young at the time and didn’t take much notice...

[chevvron]

Down route a while ago in my hotel room I found myself watching (once again) The film Those Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines which was made in 1964. I have always been interested in the making of this film. I understand some aircraft were originals, some were made for the film and some contraptions were doubtless incapable of flight and only "flew" due to cranes and wires that were not visible. Apparently there were 6 planes that actually flew and they were flown by 6 pilots I thought I might ask a few questions as although I have trawled the internet I have not found the answers.

I believe one aircraft landed on the Long Walk that leads up to Windsor Castle. I very much doubt anyone could jump through the hoops required to get approval to do that these days. Was it really the Long Walk or just somewhere else made to look like it? I know that what was meant to be Brooklands was actually Booker.

Does anyone know if there were any (unintentional) aviation accidents or incidents during the filming?

My favourite aircraft was the Demoiselle flown by Joan Hughes. Did that continue to fly after the film came out or did it only fly during the filming?

It’s a remarkable film considering it was done without trick photography. I suppose any similar film these days would fall foul of health and safety regulations, need hi viz jackets and would not get CAA approval ? Also much of it would be considered racist, politically incorrect . “There is nothing a German officer cannot do” etc. The film is another example of something that could be done in the 60’s but probably could not be done now. I am sure anyone involved n the making of the film would be quite elderly now and it would be a shame if any really interesting snippets, locations and anecdotes about the making of the film and the flying never come to light. So anyone’s experiences would be welcome. ( I have seen all the interviews of certain cast members and the director on Youtube.)

Don't think 'The Long Walk' in Windsor Great Park was used, it's too undulating; I always thought they had used somewhere like 'Wimpole Hall' near Cambridge.
Much of the flying was done at Booker. My brother worked at a factory just down the road at the time and he told me the set of Brookley/Brooklands (including the sh1t works) was on the north side where the clay shooting range is now.
The Boxkite was another which was underpowered using I think a VW engine which was 'cowelled in' to disguise it and hence causing overheating problems. On one occasion transitting from Old Warden back to Booker, it failed to gain enough height to cross the Chiltern Hills and had to lob into Halton to allow the engine to cool down (story told to me by the late 'Honey Monster' who was a staff cadet on 613 GS at the time)

[chevvron]

The director Ken Annakin said that Joan Hughes was great and that the best pilot had been a cropduster in Rhodesia. I was amused that he said the worst pilot and the one they were always having a bit of trouble with had flown Comets. As 1964 was just before Dan Air acquired Comets this would imply he was a BOAC pilot.

Or a BEA one or possibly ex RAF.

[treadigraph]

All the aircraft that flew in the film were replicas built by Personal Plane Services at White Waltham/Booker, The Hampshire Aeroplane Club at Southampton, Hants and Sussex Aviation at Portsmouth, or Miles at Shoreham. Can't think of any other companies involved.

Shuttleworth's Blackburn Monoplane certainly appeared in the film but didn't fly.

Pilots included Derek Piggott, Tim Clutterbuck, Joan Hughes, Peter Hillwood, David Watson and Allen Wheeler.

Might watch it again later, mmmm, Irina Demick... ;)


Edit: Tim Clutterbuck may have been the crop duster, looks like he flew helicopters for Autair.

[pulse1]

Memory is failing on the details but two of the aircraft were brought to Cranfield after the filming was completed. I thought that one was the Boxkite and the other was the Avro triplane. They were flown in by the Chief Pilot of Cranfield Aeronautical College who was allowed to fly them while they were there.

[Allan Lupton]

One bit of filming that wasn't at Booker was the sequence where an aeroplane landed on a train to be further smashed by a tunnel. That was filmed on the Bedford-Hitchin railway which passes Cardington to the tunnel known either as Southill or Old Warden Tunnel.
There was a problem with matching the (pre-crash) speeds, as I recall.

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Joan Hughes told us that Gert Frobe strutting around doing that marching band impersonation wasn't in the original script. He did it to amuse people between takes, and the producers were so impressed that they wrote it in.

I started flying at Booker in 1967 and I think caution was advised in the north west corner of the airfield, due to a certain residual sogginess from the 'sewage farm.'

[PDR1]

The Boxkite was another which was underpowered using I think a VW engine which was 'cowelled in' to disguise it and hence causing overheating problems.

Again, from memory of reading the loaned book (which I must try and get a copy of, but the current prices are excessive) - IIRC the replica aircraft were powered with 100bhp Continental 0-200 engines, and they initially had major concerns about over-powering and so made provision for throttle restrictors.

But when they got to flight testing they found they needed all the available power - the modern engines developed their power at much higher rpm than the edwardian-era ones, and so they turned muuch smaller props. These props just didn't develop the thrust at low airspeeds needed to overcome the very high drag of these airframes.

The very low airspeeds also provided much lower airflow over the cylinders, and that led to overheating. Various tricks were used to reduce the overheating, but the final cure was to simply drill out the jets in the carbs and run the engines very rich to fuel-cool them (a much-used technique in motorbike, kart and smaller single-seat car racing). This must have made them prone to intake icing, but I don't know what they did to address that.

My apologies to Joan - once said the memory clicked into place!

PDR

[treadigraph]

Dug out my copy:

Demoiselle: 30hp VW Ardam, changed to 50hp Ardam and longer wings (and lighter pilot!)

Avro Triplane: 90hp Cirrus II

Antoinette: Gipsy I.

Eardley-Billing and Bristol Boxkite: both had a 65hp RR Continental A.65, later changed to 90hp C.90.

Vickers 22: 30hp JAP, later changed to a 75hp Continental A.75

[creweite]

Doug Bianci told me that the wings on the Demoiselle were from a Tiger Moth, and that the aircraft was fine when flown at White Waltham (Bert Goodchild perhaps?) but at the elevation of Booker it was a problem. That is when petite Joan Hughes was called upon. I believe that Harald Best Devereux was also involved in one of the replicas.

[treadigraph]

Don't think it's a Tiger Moth wing section

http://pics.imcdb.org/4691/ThoseMagnifient94.jpg

[treadigraph]

Don't think it's a Tiger Moth wing section. According to Wheeler, only Hughes could get it off the ground at White Waltham after some modification; once they extended the wings further and put the 50hp Ardam engine in (VW1600?) it flew very well at Booker. Shame it didn't got to Shuttleworth as well, the Antoinette as well.

Not sure if the pic below is Jean-Pierre Cassal or Derek Piggott!

http://pics.imcdb.org/4691/ThoseMagnifient94.jpg

[India Four Two]

One calm September evening in 1966 (a year after the film premiered), I was doing dual circuits in a Piper Colt at White Waltham. During one downwind leg, we noticed a strange-looking biplane tracking slowly north to south at about 500'.

My instructor took over and we went to have a look. It was the Bristol Boxkite. My instructor tried to formate but could not. The stall speed of a Colt is about 50 mph and the Boxkite's maximum speed was 45 mph!

[creweite]

Don't think it's a Tiger Moth wing section. According to Wheeler, only Hughes could get it off the ground at White Waltham after some modification; once they extended the wings further and put the 50hp Ardam engine in (VW1600?) it flew very well at Booker. Shame it didn't got to Shuttleworth as well, the Antoinette as well.

Not sure if the pic below is Jean-Pierre Cassal or Derek Piggott!

http://pics.imcdb.org/4691/ThoseMagnifient94.jpg
The leading edge was drooped per Doug.

[treadigraph]

The leading edge was drooped per Doug.

Correct, one of the mods. Still looks very skinny to me for a Tiger, also the number of ribs are different; they appear to be much more closely spaced. The Tiger has rib noses forward of the spar between each pair of complete ribs; the Demoiselle only has complete ribs.

Mind you, I was astonished at how skinny and delicate Jungmann ribs are when I saw Shuttleworth's unclad!

[ExAscoteer]

All the aircraft that flew in the film were replicas built by Personal Plane Services at White Waltham/Booker, The Hampshire Aeroplane Club at Southampton, Hants and Sussex Aviation at Portsmouth, or Miles at Shoreham.

Shuttleworth's Blackburn Monoplane certainly appeared in the film but didn't fly.


Another Shuttleworth aircraft that was in the film (but didn't fly) was the Deferduttin.

Non-Flyer replicas were:

The Picat Orni ornithopter, the Lee Richards Annular, the Dixon Nipper, the Phillips Multiplane, the Picat Bubreuil, and the Walton Edwards Rhomboidal.

[FAR CU]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T9GQslvTDWw/TWq20C-0zUI/AAAAAAAAAvY/9ae_1bsPRcI/s400/Picture2.jpg (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T9GQslvTDWw/TWq20C-0zUI/AAAAAAAAAvY/9ae_1bsPRcI/s1600/Picture2.jpg)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HvgmWbSFZpg/TWq20hvEMWI/AAAAAAAAAvc/0m8aYcsjPGY/s400/Picture3.jpg (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HvgmWbSFZpg/TWq20hvEMWI/AAAAAAAAAvc/0m8aYcsjPGY/s1600/Picture3.jpg)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-h2QgQ8xqoQo/TWq21QUvHHI/AAAAAAAAAvg/MCleh_QgAmo/s400/Picture4.jpg (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-h2QgQ8xqoQo/TWq21QUvHHI/AAAAAAAAAvg/MCleh_QgAmo/s1600/Picture4.jpg)

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fqGWFjhb3D4/TWq21qs3HjI/AAAAAAAAAvk/ekaaYfQ7-AU/s400/Picture5.jpg (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fqGWFjhb3D4/TWq21qs3HjI/AAAAAAAAAvk/ekaaYfQ7-AU/s1600/Picture5.jpg)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pro9z0iReas/TWq22KiGVnI/AAAAAAAAAvo/fFebcHrQHfk/s400/Picture6.jpg (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pro9z0iReas/TWq22KiGVnI/AAAAAAAAAvo/fFebcHrQHfk/s1600/Picture6.jpg)

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Nwwp4SOyj6Q/TWq22h_RClI/AAAAAAAAAvs/YSJa-yRu1BI/s400/lmx5klyapt1inpe5ezagij4506072006101836.jpg (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Nwwp4SOyj6Q/TWq22h_RClI/AAAAAAAAAvs/YSJa-yRu1BI/s1600/lmx5klyapt1inpe5ezagij4506072006101836.jpg)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vPMwyZ6TbDE/TWq23DssgHI/AAAAAAAAAvw/Y_EWJpLFTjE/s400/magnifmensearle.jpg (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vPMwyZ6TbDE/TWq23DssgHI/AAAAAAAAAvw/Y_EWJpLFTjE/s1600/magnifmensearle.jpg)

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lGWIpMLSSRE/TWq23iLfKTI/AAAAAAAAAv0/Vq5lR5Gaiu8/s400/3352528458_6f0f45b80d_b-700x499.jpg (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lGWIpMLSSRE/TWq23iLfKTI/AAAAAAAAAv0/Vq5lR5Gaiu8/s1600/3352528458_6f0f45b80d_b-700x499.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T9GQslvTDWw/TWq20C-0zUI/AAAAAAAAAvY/9ae_1bsPRcI/s1600/Picture2.jpg)

[Get me some traffic]

I remember delivering bread to remote farms south of Skegness seeing filming over the marshes. The sequences took all day but only produced about 30 secs of film AFAIR. Very fascinating for a young teenager.

[wub]

BPI: I remember seeing the Antoinette at Fairoaks too

[treadigraph]

Ah, the days when films were done for real, none of this CGI nonsense... sigh...

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Doug Bianci told me that the wings on the Demoiselle were from a Tiger Moth, and that the aircraft was fine when flown at White Waltham (Bert Goodchild perhaps?) but at the elevation of Booker it was a problem. That is when petite Joan Hughes was called upon. I believe that Harald Best Devereux was also involved in one of the replicas.

Bert - "Can we put the aeroplanes away now, Miss Hughes?" - Goodchild was built like the proverbial brick outhouse, so no chance!
:)

[creweite]

Bert - "Can we put the aeroplanes away now, Miss Hughes?" - Goodchild was built like the proverbial brick outhouse, so no chance!
:)

And his twin brother! If you remember Bert you probably remember the most cross eyed instructor I ever flew with, Mac who had some interesting stories to tell, such as the time he knocked the funnel off a steamroller!

[ZeBedie]

Mac who had some interesting stories to tell, such as the time he knocked the funnel off a steamroller!

I guess Mac isn't about to tell us all that story, so perhaps you might? I'm sure a lack of aviation content will be forgiven, if it's a good story!

[creweite]

Mac was with the ATA and taxying a Wellington on the perimeter track, which was under repair at the time. When he got to the work area he went onto the grass and was being given a clearance OK from a worker that the wing was clear of the steam roller. However while the leading edge did clear the funnel the trailing edge did not and he took the funnel off as he went ahead. Cost him a loss of salary for while!

[Dora-9]

The Demoiselle was in Melbourne Australia I think for the premier of the film.

My father an Ansett Captain at the time and 6ft 1 was In the middle of a conversion course and as the aircraft was in the Ansett Hangar tried his luck and got into it. Much to his consternation couldn't get out without much assistance and mirth from his fellow pilots.

My understanding is that it was flown in Australia, by another Ansett pilot (Russ Whetherstone?) who was of quite diminutive stature.

[emeritus]

Yup. I recall getting a phone call from someone in Flt Dept. They were after someone who was not carrying too many excess lbs/kg.

Unfortunately Russ was lighter than me (or anyone else on the Seniority List )

Emeritus. :{

[POBJOY]

As a sprog I lived at Kenley in Surrey (in the valley) and was woken at some ludicrous early hour by a loud engine noise that beamed from the sky but seemed stationary. Seconds later the 'Boxkite' hove into view at a very low height and passed overhead at a very slow speed.
I suspect it was 'in transit' back home after an appearance at a Biggin Hill airshow or RAF 'At Home', making good use of the early morning calm, no thermals and low temp, which was needed to defy gravity.

[reynoldsno1]

Did that continue to fly after the film came out or did it only fly during the filming?
ISTR that there was a Desmoiselle at RAF Gatow in 1974 - I was told it was the same aircraft that appeared in the movie, but the passage of time may be playing tricks with my memory. OC Ops, whose name escapes me now, did fly it from time to time ...

[chevvron]

ISTR that there was a Desmoiselle at RAF Gatow in 1974 - I was told it was the same aircraft that appeared in the movie, but the passage of time may be playing tricks with my memory. OC Ops, whose name escapes me now, did fly it from time to time ...

There was at least one early microlight about that time (or possibly a bit later) which resembled a Demoiselle. They were very cheap in those days and as far as I recall, training and licensing wasn't mandatory yet. (It still isn't in the USA)

[treadigraph]

I have a vague recollection that Shuttle worth do have a modern replica Demoiselle which arrived in recenthe years. Not sure if it was theirs or if it's even still there. Must visit this year.

[Jetex_Jim]

And, if you haven't got the DVD you can watch it here for free.

Watch Those Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines Or How I Flew From London To Paris In 25 Hours 11 Minutes Online | Watch Full Those Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines Or How I Flew From London To Paris In 25 Hours 11 Minutes (1965) Online (http://sharemovies.net/watch/7vNPK6GR-those-magnificent-men-in-their-flying-machines-or-how-i-flew-from-london-to-paris-in-25-hours-11-minutes.html)

[washoutt]

I got a virus warning when clicking the link

[Dan Winterland]

The Demoiselle was a great design for it's age. Since aircraft development in the US stalled due to the legal wrangling between Curtiss and the Wright Brothers, it was for Europe to take the lead. Santos Dumont's design introduced the configuration and stability features that we know take for granted and led to a stable and very flyable machine, unlike the Wright brother's. Instead of attempting to capitalise on his creation, Santo Dumont made the plans available for anyone to copy publishing the design in the July 1910 edition of 'Popular Mechanics'. Many were built and as the plans were available in the 1960s, it was an obvious choice for the movie.

The plans are still available and more have been built since. I have a notion that I would like to build one. A Rotax 912 would be an ideal powerplant.

[treadigraph]

Looks a delightful little machine doesn't it?

Three aircraft my dream hangar would include are the Demoiselle, Turbulent and Fournier RF-4...

I thought Jean-Pierre Cassall won the best prize in the film!

[Haraka]

The plans are still available and more have been built since. I have a notion that I would like to build one. A Rotax 912 would be an ideal powerplant.
Using this idea and with "safe" approved designs a lot of fun could be be in the offing.....

[Jumbo P]

George Miles at the controls of the Boxkite4536 on its maiden flight

[Wander00]

May have told this before, but it is relevant. Waiting at Royan for the Gironde ferry a few years back, fell into conversation with driver of the car behind me. On my way to A RAFA event so he asked me if I had ever flown in a Avro aircraft. I said that as a 13 year old air cadet I had flown in Anson, and enquired why he asked. "Aah," he said, "my Grandfather was A V Roe".

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Looking for something else, I came across this: https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1978/1978%20-%200151.html

[creweite]

Looking for something else, I came across this: https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1978/1978%20-%200151.html
Thank you for posting that. Doug was of immense help in the early days of the PFA and a great friend.
I was sorry to hear from son Tony that he had closed up shop, end of an era.

[LynxDriver]

Another Shuttleworth aircraft that was in the film (but didn't fly) was the Deferduttin.


Not the Deperdussin?