Brexit throws Anglo-French FCAS programme into doubt - Flight [Archive]

Heathrow Harry

13th Mar 2018, 14:39

08 March, 2018 SOURCE: FlightGlobal.com BY: Dan Thisdell
Paris

A three-year-old Anglo-French bid to define the future of unmanned combat aircraft looks to be falling foul of Brexit, as “political and budgetary uncertainty” in London have left the launch of a demonstrator programme in doubt.
Dassault Aviation chief executive Éric Trappier says the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme is now just “marking time”. Presenting Dassault's 2017 financial results at its headquarters at St Cloud, Paris, Trappier said he was “disappointed” by the stalling of a programme that represented five or six years of design work in collaboration with BAE Systems in the UK.

FCAS was expected to move into a full-scale demonstrator development programme at the end of 2017, following a formal two-year feasibility study begun in November 2014 and a further 12-month study phase last year. “We wanted a contract to build a demonstrator,” Trappier says, but that has not happened.

Now, he says, attention has moved to a proposed Franco-German project that would see Dassault and Airbus design a new combat system for the 2040s, as a successor to the countries' respective Rafale and Eurofighter programmes. Details remain under discussion, but significant unmanned capabilities, perhaps as indicated by FCAS and the Dassault-led Neuron programme, are expected. While Dassault and Airbus work on the technical aspects, Trappier says the French and German governments will have to do the critical work of defining how the two countries will work together on the project. “The way in which we co-operate, that will be the most important point,” he says.

Neuron was a great success, he says, because the six countries involved were well-organised with clear goals. A sign of success, he adds, is that the aircraft proved reliable enough to make demonstration flights at air shows.
Dassault enjoyed a good year financially in 2017. Sales rose by more than a third to €4.8 billion, with delivery of a single Rafale to France and eight to Egypt, against a total of nine deliveries of the multirole type in 2016. Falcon business jet deliveries held steady last year at 49. Net income rose 27% to €489 million ($605 million). The top line, says Trappier, should be about the same for 2018.

pr00ne

13th Mar 2018, 14:55

Brexit, it just keeps on delivering...

Bengo

13th Mar 2018, 17:04

Brexit, it just keeps on delivering...
More likely that the MoD have neither money to spare to pursue this program nor quite the political support that Anglo French cooperation once enjoyed.
N

Bob Viking

13th Mar 2018, 17:17

I know it’s the ‘trendy’ thing to blame Brexit for everything that goes wrong but I have a question.

When I went to France in 2010 I remember getting 1.06€ to the £. I was in France last month and got 1.13€ to the £.

If Brexit is so bad and businesses are closing because of it why didn’t they all close in 2010?

Also, for a further example, when I moved to Canada in 2012 we got 1.56$ to the £. It’s currently at 1.80.

How exactly is Brexit killing us right now?

I have no particular axe to grind on either side of the argument but I do suspect that our media are not wholly honest with us.

BV

golfbananajam

13th Mar 2018, 17:28

sounds more like a decision by our French "colleagues" to me

glad rag

13th Mar 2018, 20:16

sounds more like a decision by our French "colleagues" to me

I like the French quite a lot, ok you have to get round things, but generally they are ok.

However, when it comes to aerospace, they put us to shame when it comes to safeguarding national interests and industry.

glad rag

13th Mar 2018, 20:20

Brexit, it just keeps on delivering...

I know, great isn't it.
See my post above if you are lacking comprehension.

Buster15

13th Mar 2018, 20:32

I like the French quite a lot, ok you have to get round things, but generally they are ok.

However, when it comes to aerospace, they put us to shame when it comes to safeguarding national interests and industry.

Not just aerospace...

Lima Juliet

13th Mar 2018, 22:12

I thought the French and Germans had already declaredtheir hand on FCAS with the proposed Airbus 2-seat next gen fighter?

http://www.janes.com/images/assets/550/75550/1712546.jpg
http://abcblogs.abc.es/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2017/07/IMG_5458.jpg

Would be great to replace Tornado with one of these instead of more F35s...

Rigga

13th Mar 2018, 22:56

It would have ended in a French split anyway. At least this way the French get to take the blame - Oops! credit, earlier.

drustsonoferp

14th Mar 2018, 06:43

Perhaps Brexit is now a good enough excuse to pull out of a project which seemed very nice politically, but was likely to see BAE Systems' competitive advantage in low observable technology effectively given away to Dassault for free.

Roland Pulfrew

14th Mar 2018, 08:29

ORAC

14th Mar 2018, 08:37

The rationale for investing in building such an aircraft is that you require it for your own armed forces and/or for export potential.

I would suggest that, based on recent history, and the competition from the USA/Russia/China and domestic programmes in nations such as Japan/Korea/Turkey, the export potential is low. (And BAe is in fact investing instead in partnering in the Turkish and Japanese programmes).

With the dramatic shrinkage in the RAF over recent years and the introduction of the F-35B the UK market for a Typhoon replacement is small, if a couple of squadrons are replaced by additional F-35A/Bs or UAVs such as Taranis perhaps no more than a couple of squadrons for QRA which could be filled off the shelf from the next generation US fighters for the USAF and USN now being funded.

In such circumstances I can see the lack of interest in the MOD/Treasury for investing a new European project within the next 20-30 years, especially with more urgent needs in other parts of the defence budget.

And, let’s face it, Bae is mainly a US company these days and there are more jobs in bidding for contracts to build parts for US aircraft such as the F-35 than a European Typhoon replacement.

unmanned_droid

14th Mar 2018, 11:00

Having worked for a supplier involved with a Dassault project, my opinion is that Dassault are very sharp operators and you need to be really, really on your game, therefore, it's probably best for us not to get anymore involved.

Heathrow Harry

14th Mar 2018, 11:53

Buster Hyman

14th Mar 2018, 12:02

I'm sure there's a 'Commonwealth' country or two that'd jump on board. If Brexit was ever going to work, it must surely include the Commonwealth?

GeeRam

14th Mar 2018, 13:01

All our recent combat aircraft have been co-operative - you have to go back 30-40 years to the Harrier and the Buc. for a 100% UK aircraft - (and a lot of the later Harriers had US input)

There was a lot of US involvement from the very early days of the Harrier/Kestrel/P.1127, so I would exclude that tbh.

Bucc is the last I would think?

glad rag

14th Mar 2018, 14:09

There was a lot of US involvement from the very early days of the Harrier/Kestrel/P.1127, so I would exclude that tbh.

Bucc is the last I would think?

USMC more like.

Mil-26Man

14th Mar 2018, 14:21

I'm sure there's a 'Commonwealth' country or two that'd jump on board. If Brexit was ever going to work, it must surely include the Commonwealth?

Which Commonwealth country with a domestic aerospace industry the size, expertise, capacity and governmental backing as France's are you thinking of?

Heathrow Harry

14th Mar 2018, 14:33

I'm sure there's a 'Commonwealth' country or two that'd jump on board. If Brexit was ever going to work, it must surely include the Commonwealth?

The British always invoke the Commonwealth when they've been shafted by either the US or Europe

In fact the "Commonwealth" hardly ever think they belong in it and tend to remember the times the UK has turned their back on them in favour of Europe or the USA

When did a major Commonwealth country last buy a British Combat Aircarft? Probably India when they bough the Gnat................

Buster15

14th Mar 2018, 15:49

Sure - we can always buy advanced technology of the yanks......... just like the F-35.....

All our recent combat aircraft have been co-operative - you have to go back 30-40 years to the Harrier and the Buc. for a 100% UK aircraft - (and a lot of the later Harriers had US input)

We won't put the money into a European programme and we certainly can't afford our own so it's another technology scratched off the list

There have been certain benefits from our recent collaboration programmes.
Tornado has been by far the most capable strike, attack and recce fast jet the RAF has ever had, noting that it has served for over one third of the entire life of the RAF.
After a relatively slow start Typhoon is now taking on that role as well as its swing role A2A. It is selling well as well.
A400M may become a success but perhaps five nations was a step too far.
Although not a brilliant example, even the F35 JSF has an element of international collaboration. None of these aircraft could have been introduced by the UK alone.

Heathrow Harry

14th Mar 2018, 18:28

There have been certain benefits from our recent collaboration programmes.
Tornado has been by far the most capable strike, attack and recce fast jet the RAF has ever had, noting that it has served for over one third of the entire life of the RAF.
After a relatively slow start Typhoon is now taking on that role as well as its swing role A2A. It is selling well as well.
A400M may become a success but perhaps five nations was a step too far.
Although not a brilliant example, even the F35 JSF has an element of international collaboration. None of these aircraft could have been introduced by the UK alone.

Exactly

If we can't afford a collaborative program we can't afford a go it alone one

Alber Ratman

14th Mar 2018, 21:01

The British always invoke the Commonwealth when they've been shafted by either the US or Europe

In fact the "Commonwealth" hardly ever think they belong in it and tend to remember the times the UK has turned their back on them in favour of Europe or the USA

When did a major Commonwealth country last buy a British Combat Aircarft? Probably India when they bough the Gnat................

Try the Jaguar...:ok:

Oh, it was Franco-British.. The Intenational sales were all via Britain mind, Dassault were only sub connies in reality and of course Dassualt will only play ball if they have the total lead. Not going to happen is it.

MAINJAFAD

14th Mar 2018, 21:18

melmothtw

14th Mar 2018, 21:26

....Or the Sea Harrier.

There you go, we can go into business with India. A country who's aviation industry is famed for its innovation, its efficiency, and its ability to undertake complex projects to budget and to deadline. Oh Lordy....!

Alber Ratman

14th Mar 2018, 21:43

Or the Single seat Hawk (not that much use as a trainer)....Or the Sea Harrier.

Thanks for the correction MJ.

Alber Ratman

14th Mar 2018, 21:47

There you go, we can go into business with India. A country who's aviation industry is famed for its innovation, its efficiency, and its ability to undertake complex projects to budget and to deadline. Oh Lordy....!

Alas they want complete freedom of movement for such a deal. Brexit was stop unrestricted immirgation for the unwashed Joes and the OAPs. They never voted for open door for the Sub Continent (as a remainer, neither did I!):ugh:

Jabba_TG12

15th Mar 2018, 09:51

Sod all to do with Brexit. Just another excuse for the Remainers to claim that is is though. BAe has no desire or interest in pursuing this kind of project. Too much money to be made from either screwing the MOD on projects they've taken over through acquisitions (subs, aircraft carriers, ships, etc), whose sites and capabilities will be killed off and turned into business parks as soon as the support phase of the contract is done, or from being a supplier to the US DOD.

Anyone who seriously thinks that BAe gives a flying fig about any kind of British Sovereign engineering capability or indeed, even has done for the best part of 20 years, seriously needs their head read. They know they've got HMG/MOD over a barrel in terms of supplier choices and never cease to exploit it.

This capability has been leaking away since the MRCA days. That we've reached the point we have has sod all to do with Brexit. The writing has been on the wall for decades.

Davef68

15th Mar 2018, 10:12

All our recent combat aircraft have been co-operative - you have to go back 30-40 years to the Harrier and the Buc. for a 100% UK aircraft - (and a lot of the later Harriers had US input)

The last stand alone military aircraft designed in the UK was the Hawk.

EAP86

15th Mar 2018, 10:28

Try the Jaguar...:ok:

Oh, it was Franco-British.. The Intenational sales were all via Britain mind, Dassault were only sub connies in reality and of course Dassualt will only play ball if they have the total lead. Not going to happen is it.

By the time the UK got involved with Jaguar, the aircraft was pretty much designed. If you know where to look, you'll see signs that it's very much a French aircraft.

The problem with a proposal like this FCAS is that it's basically a first strike platform. Guess how many European countries have an operational requirement for this? Rule out France and the UK is on its own. While Germany seems to want in, I think its only for the industrial benefits.

I know that BAES (and other parts of the aviation industry) have been trying to convince the UK government about the loss of sovereign engineering capability for a lot of years (15+) and programs like this were part of the more positive outcomes. The idea that brexit isn't a large part of this latest debacle is truly laughable.

EAP

Buster Hyman

15th Mar 2018, 10:28

Which Commonwealth country with a domestic aerospace industry the size, expertise, capacity and governmental backing as France's are you thinking of?
Was thinking of Canada actually. I imagined it might be open to collaboration on a major investment in its aerospace industry but I was thinking with an open mind sorry. Too dreary to be a pessimist.

Mil-26Man

15th Mar 2018, 11:00

...but I was thinking with an open mind sorry.

Nothing wrong with a bit of blue-sky thinking, but lets keep things real. Canada's expertise, capacity, and governmental backing in the field of defence aerospace don't come close to France's.

Herod

15th Mar 2018, 11:04

This capability has been leaking away since the MRCA days.

As in Must Refurbish Canberras (Again)?

dead_pan

15th Mar 2018, 12:11

Was thinking of Canada actually.

Does Canada have a significant indigenous mil aircraft design & build capability? I thought they usually bought American.

Anyhow if the swivel-eyed tendency have their way we'll be restarting production of Spitfires and Lancasters come next April...

MFC_Fly

15th Mar 2018, 12:26

Anyhow if the swivel-eyed tendency have their way
Why do you stoop to childish name calling? Doesn't give you or your argument much credibility :rolleyes:

Mil-26Man

15th Mar 2018, 12:30

Why do you stoop to childish name calling? Doesn't give you or your argument much credibility

As someone who has been repeatedly labelled a 'Remoaner' here and elsewhere, I have to agree with you.

KenV

15th Mar 2018, 15:47

There was a lot of US involvement from the very early days of the Harrier/Kestrel/P.1127, so I would exclude that tbh.

Bucc is the last I would think?
What about the Hawk? Or is that not a "combat" aircraft?

Heathrow Harry

15th Mar 2018, 15:50

Or the Single seat Hawk (not that much use as a trainer)....Or the Sea Harrier.
The sea Harrier was designed well over 30 years ago

Alber Ratman

15th Mar 2018, 16:18

By the time the UK got involved with Jaguar, the aircraft was pretty much designed. If you know where to look, you'll see signs that it's very much a French aircraft.

The problem with a proposal like this FCAS is that it's basically a first strike platform. Guess how many European countries have an operational requirement for this? Rule out France and the UK is on its own. While Germany seems to want in, I think its only for the industrial benefits.

I know that BAES (and other parts of the aviation industry) have been trying to convince the UK government about the loss of sovereign engineering capability for a lot of years (15+) and programs like this were part of the more positive outcomes. The idea that brexit isn't a large part of this latest debacle is truly laughable.

EAP

121 as the part number, you are correct, the concept was on a drawing board at least as a design. Your last statement is correct too regardless on what any of the leavers believe.

ORAC

15th Mar 2018, 17:41

The Jaguar original design was as an advanced trainer IIRC.

Lima Juliet

15th Mar 2018, 19:27

Buster15

15th Mar 2018, 19:40

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/British_Aerospace_EAP_at_the_Farnborough_Air_Show%2C_1986.jp g

Experimental Aircraft Program (EAP) was actually the last British designed, paid for and flown - I think the Govt stumped up £80M and the company the rest. The Italian Aeritalia was a sub-contractor and MBB couldn’t raise the cash. The Eurofighter and its consortium came from this later down the line.

Makes you think what could have been...
I did mention this before in another topic but was told by others who know far more than me about EAP that it was not possible to productionise it.

Herod

15th Mar 2018, 21:14

On display at RAF Museum, Cosford.

Buster Hyman

15th Mar 2018, 21:58

Nothing wrong with a bit of blue-sky thinking, but lets keep things real. Canada's expertise, capacity, and governmental backing in the field of defence aerospace don't come close to France's.
Currently, I imagine this is true. No doubt about it but, here in Oz, the Govt. has decided that with the demise of our car manufacturing industry, we'd better build up other opportunities such as getting into Defence manufacturing (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-to-become-major-defence-exporter-under-38b-turnbull-plan-20180128-h0pc4w.html).

In no way would we ever be on the same scale as France but to give you an idea about the trajectory they are aiming for here, they've announced an AUD5-15 Billion investment (https://www.smh.com.au/national/queensland/queensland-wins-5-billion-defence-contract-20180314-p4z48i.html) in APC type vehicles. I used Canada as an example because they have an Aerospace industry to start with.

Anyway, just a thought. :ok:

EAP86

15th Mar 2018, 22:05

As regards my namesake, the Italians were partners (designed one of the wings and contributed to other systems) and while the MOD financed the demonstration of some of the technologies, it would be unfair to omit the fact that all of the suppliers of systems, avionics and parts did so at their own expense. Rolls Royce, GEC Marconi, Smiths, Dowty, Lucas, Normalair, MBA to name only a few. Apols for the ones I've missed.

Productionisation would have been difficult; weight reduction would have been essential, a proper fighter engine fitted and the bits that didn't work out replaced. The lessons were still used to benefit Typhoon so no loss.

EAP

Alber Ratman

15th Mar 2018, 23:55

The Jaguar original design was as an advanced trainer IIRC.

The French design was ECAT. Combat School training was the close defination in English but as a light ground attack aircraft replacing the F84s and Mystere IVs was the French requirement originally, so it was always going to to be more than a two seat trainer to the French (75 would have been single seat ground attack aircraft for the AdA in 1965 when the first MoU was signed)

ORAC

16th Mar 2018, 08:35

A type of beefed up next-gen Strikemaster?

Alber Ratman

16th Mar 2018, 09:53

A type of beefed up next-gen Strikemaster?

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

pr00ne

16th Mar 2018, 12:58

A sort of FTS Gnat and TWU Hunter replacement...

ORAC

16th Mar 2018, 13:21

I was always bemused at the idea of the Jag being a trainer considering the unusual control surfaces and handling.

Alber Ratman

16th Mar 2018, 20:24

I was always bemused at the idea of the Jag being a trainer considering the unusual control surfaces and handling.

Well the British driven changes didn't help its spinning charectoristics (that they were well aware by the model spinning trials). The Breguet BR1001 Taon had spoiler roll controls. The use of differential tailplane was always suspected to be a requirement in the early wind tunnel reports. The tunnel testing had spotted the shortcomings in 1966/67 (got the papers from Kew). It was really only flight testing in 1969 that proved the unsuitablity of the airframe to have post basic students flying it and with other changes in NATO doctrine that saw the Plan R changes to that the Jaguar was actually really be doing in RAF service from 1970.

glad rag

16th Mar 2018, 22:18

The Jaguar original design was as an advanced trainer IIRC.
Yep supersonic trainer.But then it bent in gun attack then

pouf

have a beefed up ground attack aircraft instead!

rjtjrt

17th Mar 2018, 00:16

Which Commonwealth country with a domestic aerospace industry the size, expertise, capacity and governmental backing as France's are you thinking of?

There you go, we can go into business with India. A country who's aviation industry is famed for its innovation, its efficiency, and its ability to undertake complex projects to budget and to deadline. Oh Lordy....!

Seems some hereassume UK industry does not have the abilty technilogically to do a new combat aircraft on its own.
Seems to me UK could do it all except UK does not have the money. That is why involving a Commonwealth country that has money for defence innovation (like India) and is hungry for opportunity to partner with an honest technilogically advanced country, would be a good idea.
How many past UK French defence collaborative programs have been satisfactory from UK standpoint?
When will UK learn from past events?