BA reveals 10 abreast 777

[Pinkman]

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/03/05/ba-reveals-what-economy-class-looks-like-with-extra-seat-in-each/

I'd love to be a fly on the wall on the evac tests with 25% of pax grabbing hand luggage. I am assuming there will be some "cork in the bottle" tests?

Actually no, maybe because the British are so unfailingly polite this isn't a problem. "After you old chap" "no, you first, I insist" "I say, thanks ever so" :}

[surely not]

Pinkman I know we are leaving the EU and imposing tough controls on immigration to limit those terrible foreigners from entering our country, but I don't think we can afford for BA to limit itself to only carrying unfailingly polite Brits!!

I would also question how many decades ago it was when you last travelled on a holiday route with BA or any other British airline, because unfailingly polite is something very few Brits are these days.

10 abreast ............ perhaps it will be called the Samantha Fox cabin?

[DaveReidUK]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall on the evac tests with 25% of pax grabbing hand luggage. I am assuming there will be some "cork in the bottle" tests?

Why would there be a need for tests?

The B772 is certificated for over 100 pax more than BA's 10-abreast configuration.

[oldchina]

There's nothing new about 10-abreast in a 777.
Certain sandy airlines have had it for years.

[Pinkman]

Dave, you are right but that is the problem. Its certificated.

All:

1. Watch this 777 evac certification test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJobZPxx9HU

2. Count the number of pax with hand baggage.

3. Reflect on the holiday destinations that this high density configuration is designed to serve from EGKK.

4. Think about the type of people that will use economy class and how often they travel in an aircraft on average (most once or twice a year), and the fact that they tend to take max hand baggage.

Pinkman

[wiggy]

Then this a Boeing/ regulators problem, not BA's.

Despite all the " your safety..." platitudes your hear and read I doubt any airline CFO or CEO on the planet is going to turn round to the rest of the Board and/or the shareholders and say, "yes, we had the option to make more money by legally installing more seats, but we can't trust the passengers not to take their wheelies with them in an evacuation, so we decided not to do so"....

..and has been pointed out there are several airlines around, some operating into and out of the UK, carrying British passengers, in economy, with ten abreast seating.

[Gordomac]

Glad BA continues with it's determined quest to becoming just another LOCO. Glad because my limited staff travel facility with former employer has just expired and I have to go with the loco's like everyone else. Recent Paphos/Glasgow with Jet2 was pure delight & the cabin crew were prettier than BA. And that was only the stewards.

[SMT Member]

10-abreast 777s is the standard these days, and have been so for quite a few years already; one could well argue BA are just late hitching on the bandwagon.

[Capt Ecureuil]

What an odd OP.

EASA type certification for the 777

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/TCDS_EASA%20IM%20A%20003_B777_%20Iss_13_20151215_Final.pdf

[anson harris]

Glad BA continues with it's determined quest to becoming just another LOCO

Do you consider Emirates to be a Loco? They've had 10 abreast seating on their 777s for ages.

[Hussar 54]

Haven't they also just announced ' Cheaper fares for hand baggage only ' on Long Haul too ?

Or ' Pay for checked baggage ' as many others would see it.

Edited to add BA, that is.....

[andrasz]

Do you consider Emirates to be a Loco?
YES!
(tried them once, never again...)

[thegypsy]

Gordomac

Please check your use of the apostrophe in your diatribe.

Sorry to hear you have lost your GF staff travel. Guess you will have to sit a little more by that lovely pool instead.:D

[OxfordGold]

NAS longhaul must be hurting BA;

BA to launch no-frills fares for transatlantic flights | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-5463095/BA-launch-no-frills-fares-transatlantic-flights.html)

(The BA L1011's where 10 abreast!)

[wiggy]

NAS longhaul must be hurting BA

I suspect the plan is to do exact opposite....

[anson harris]

YES!
(tried them once, never again...)

I suggest a Gulfstream V if you're not happy with all of the above.
Then again, I tried it once, never again...

[RexBanner]

NAS longhaul must be hurting BA

Not nearly as much as it’s hurting Norwegian.

[WHBM]

There's nothing new about 10-abreast in a 777.
Certain sandy airlines have had it for years.
This is a slight misrepresentation. The ME airlines (one in particular) that first went from 9 to 10 across in a 777 did so with 35" seat pitch. Their rationale was that the same cabin space per pax was better appreciated with length rather than width.


Other carriers then leapt at the 10-across seating units, but did nothing about the pitch side of the equation.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I would also question how many decades ago it was when you last travelled on a holiday route with BA
Not since the LoCos were invented, certainly.

[Dannyboy39]

I'd be more aggrieved at the 180Y A320. That's just matching up with EZY. I do admit that I try and avoid BAW where possible and would happily book EZY at their expense.

Do any airlines do 174Y or less A320 any more? Also don't like it when airlines are fitting the MCD and lucky economy passengers are getting a business pitch, despite paying an economy price.

[wowzz]

I'd be more aggrieved at the 180Y A320. That's just matching up with EZY. I do admit that I try and avoid BAW where possible and would happily book EZY at their expense.

Do any adndirlines do 174Y or less A320 any more? Also don't like it when airlines are fitting the MCD and lucky economy passengers are getting a business pitch, despite paying an economy price.

No issue on BA shorthaul. Pitch in club is the same as in economy.

[India Four Two]

Air Canada has had 10 abreast 777s for several years. They were introduced as being for “short” routes i.e. Toronto and Montreal to Europe. Of course that didn’t last and now they are used on the Pacific routes as well.

398 Y seats. Known as Slave Ships by the CC.

[tdracer]

Won't help with the current generation 777, but on the 777X they are reconfiguring the fuselage structure to get ~6 more inches at the seats. Should make 10 abreast a little more tolerable.

[WHBM]

Won't help with the current generation 777, but on the 777X they are reconfiguring the fuselage structure to get ~6 more inches at the seats. Should make 10 abreast a little more tolerable.
Is that not just to get 11 across configured 3-5-3; a further 1" off every seat plus the extra 6" will fit another 16" wide seat.

[tdracer]

Is that not just to get 11 across configured 3-5-3; a further 1" off every seat plus the extra 6" will fit another 16" wide seat.
The intent is to make 10 abreast more tolerable. What the airlines do with it is up to them.

If the sheep stopped shopping only by price and started looking at value, maybe the airlines would stop cramming more and more seats in... As it stands now, I suspect many people would buy a standing room only seat on a long haul flight if it saved them $20 airfare (and of course the regulators allowed it).

[RadarContactLost]

I fly several times per year ORD-CGK and back connecting in NRT and generally choose a t7 10 abreast over a certain Japanese carrier with a 787. Less room in the t7 but much more padding in the seats.
As much as it sucks, the 10 abreast t7 is a better option than the jap 787.

[crewmeal]

British Airways A321 G-MEDN, which has been under maintenance at Prestwick since 2nd January, positioned Prestwick – London Heathrow early this afternoon as BA9272. The aircraft has been reconfigured from 23J/131Y into the new “densified” CY218 configuration.

So another 50+ seats in a 320 on a medium haul route. No thanks

[crewmeal]

To add fuel to the fire......

British Airways plans to shrink seats for long-haul flyers | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5471039/British-Airways-plans-shrink-seats-long-haul-flyers.html)

[Noxegon]

If the sheep stopped shopping only by price and started looking at value, maybe the airlines would stop cramming more and more seats in.

I've yet to see a flight booking system that allows you to compare flights by amenities/comfort level. It'd be nice if you could "sort by seat pitch" but I don't see that in the immediate future :)

Besides, for most punters the preference is generally the direct flight, no matter what airline offers it. Where I live there's zero competition on the vast majority of routes.

[Non-Driver]

All been done before by BA at LGW:

https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-58663.html

[surely not]

Why do people on here think that the public will ever shop by comfort over price? Price has become the prime factor for the majority in most purchases. The need to get a bargain supersedes all other considerations for many.

If people on here genuinely pay a higher fare to travel with more comfort then fair play to them, but most airline associated staff I have worked with have been very happy to save money at every opportunity, so they are no different to those travelling with the Locos.

Look at the fleet sizes of the Locos and realise that they must be doing something right!

10 abreast on a 777, 3-4-3, looks acceptable in the promo photo. It could be argued that the block of 4 seats is preferable to the block of 3 seats as you only have one person to disturb if moving from the non aisle seat as opposed to two from the window seat.

[Espada III]

For people who fly only once or twice a year, price is everything. Those people who either fly more frequently, especally on the same route, or are interested in aviation, know there is more to it.

I have the choice of a direct EZY flight twice a week or a change in Europe several times a day, on a variety of airlines. When searching I discount the trips which take more than say nine hours as the direct flight is about five hours, and prefer to fly with Swiss which has larger planes, more space and IFE. The alternatives are legacy airlines whose planes are no more luxurious than EZY. But if Swiss is £600 each and the others are £350 it's a no brainer and if the EZY flight is £400 direct and the others £350 it is also obvious I use EZY.

However, if I need to fly on a day when there is no EZY flight, the choice is balance between trip time, price and comfort. I have in past spent about £20 more simply to arrive at 23:00 rather than 03:30 the next morning.

[wowzz]

What hasn't been mentioned, at least on this thread, is that despite the number of pax being increased significantly, the number of restrooms remains the same. I pity the poor souls sitting in the vicinity of the toilets, being disturbed by a constant stream [sic] of passengers during the flight.
I know that economically it makes no sense, but it would have been nice, if, just for once, BA had thought of their customers, and taken one row of seats out, and added two extra loos. However, until Mr Cruz flies in economy in the row immediately in front of the washrooms, on a 12 hour flight to Mauritius, this is never going to happen.

[ThreeThreeMike]

Is that not just to get 11 across configured 3-5-3; a further 1" off every seat plus the extra 6" will fit another 16" wide seat.

I believe you've divined their intent. :ugh:

[25F]

10 abreast on a 777, 3-4-3, looks acceptable in the promo photo.

I flew BA 777 3-4-3 to Cancun in 2001. IIRC there was an under-seat IFE box further adding to the general claustrophobia. Not nice at all.

[tdracer]

I've yet to see a flight booking system that allows you to compare flights by amenities/comfort level. It'd be nice if you could "sort by seat pitch" but I don't see that in the immediate future :)

Besides, for most punters the preference is generally the direct flight, no matter what airline offers it. Where I live there's zero competition on the vast majority of routes.

https://www.seatguru.com/
Yes, it means that you need to go to a second website to research the amenities and comfort level, but I seldom book a flight without checking it.

[WindSheer]

Crewman

Air 2000/First Choice flew 218 seat A321's for years. Of these, the front 4 rows were premium, so a balanced 218 of economy should be fine.

[RAT 5]

Slight thread creep I admit, but the question of comfort & value for money was raised, rather than hammer cattle class even more.

There have been a few attempts at business class only seats airlines. They've failed. The routes are limited and the a/c needs filling.

However, there are now many travellers, of all ages, but many retired, who have spare cash and are travelling to exotic locations for luxury holidays. They want the comfort of the trip to be part of total experience. But, the difference between business & economy on these routes is huge; sometimes x4. The difference buys a whole lot of upgraded accommodation, or even 2 weeks longer holiday. OK, you can try Premium economy, the difference is worth it for the price paid, but there are limited seats. There are often no direct flights.
There are many exclusive holiday destinations where the only direct flight are charter, some with club class, or a national carrier with a stop over, or change over, costing a lot of time.

IMHO there is a niche for clever marketing between exclusive holiday companies and an airline that offers an all 'premium economy' 'club class' cabin. They would fly direct to the sunshine destinations. The holidays would be seasonal to account for monsoons, hurricanes and other weather features, and change from north to south also on a seasonal basis.

If I want to fly to Phuket, Mombasa, Grenada, Vietnam, Kho So Mui, Maldives etc. etc. to a 5* resort, I would like to fly in comfort, direct at a reasonable price. A wide body 2-3-2 with old style semi-flat reclining seats, and enough leg room to step over would be nice.

There are older B767, A330, B777 that might suit. Single type essential. You'd need 15-16 hour range to cover various departure countries, but the payload would be lighter than normal. It could be 'pan' operation based in various countries à la TUI. I'm sure there is enough money in Scandinavia, Germany, UK, Luxembourg, Switzerland, and others to develop such market.

When I flew B757 we had 213 instead of the UK norm of 238. The pax loved it, especially on the Caribbean. Price were comparable to cattle class and we were always full. Value for money as someone suggested.

[twochai]

When I flew B757 we had 213 instead of the UK norm of 238. The pax loved it, especially on the Caribbean. Price were comparable to cattle class and we were always full. Value for money as someone suggested.

Is your airline that operated the 757 with 213Y still in business?

[ZFT]

Airports such as Koh Samui can't handle anything larger than an A319!

[Gilmorrie]

Contrary to some opinions expressed here, I and many others choose comfort over price. We do this simply by avoiding flying at all for pleasure or short of attending my mother's funeral. In addition to the discomfort of a flight itself, there is going through security, boarding, parking, schedule uncertainties, and the many other indignities involved in modern air travel.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Going back to 2010 I flew an open jaw return CDG/SIN (AF) then MNL/AMS (KL), my first times on B777's, AF was a -300 night flight with 10 across seating, perhaps the most uncomfortable flight I have ever had to endure, the return with KL was a -200 with 9 across seating ... ahhh, luxury ... Thereafter I believe KL went to 10 across seating also.

I swore then that in the future I shall NEVER fly in a 10 across B777 again, I shall check aircraft types and seat plans before booking, and it wasn't about fare, booking AF/KL (from/to CWL) I paid quite a significant fare and I'd have expected better.

[TeachMe]

Why do so many on here think that price is the only driver for ticket choice! Many many people I know, and myself included make conscious choices of cost vs. other factors.

What I do not usually get is an ecconomical choice between packed economy and business. What I really want is the lowest price possible then add 20-30% to give me a much more comfortable flight. I will pay more for my base ticket price for things like a 9 across 777 or food in the ticket price. I will also pay for exit row / bulkhead for leg room and ability to get up often without bothering others.

BUT I will not pay a stupid amount to move to business class at four times or even premium economy where the cost is double. I want more room than economy but to so good as in business or often overpriced premium economy.

To me the bigger problem is that the cost of the flight does not seem to fit the cost to operate it. Why is Westjet or Air Canada YYC - YYZ without food (or United YYC - ORD next week) about the same price as KLM YYC - AMS? Same thing transpacific.

Overall for those who do only focus on price I suspect the reason is that to them price is NOT an indicator of quality. They do not know to check seat guru so take the cheapest as it is just as likely to be the most comfortable as any of the others.

TME

[tdracer]

TeachMe, the problem is you're not in the majority (that's probably true of most of the people who frequent PPRUNE). You and I check Seatguru, make a judgement of cost vs. comfort and convenience, in short we try to make an informed choice.
Sadly we are the exception, not the rule. Most of the SLF buy based on price, with a perhaps a slight consideration to schedule.
While I have no objection to saving money, I made the decision long ago that I'd try to base my buying decisions based on value, not just price. Sadly you and I will remain the minority for the foreseeable future.

[Chris2303]

"Most of the SLF buy based on price, with a perhaps a slight consideration to schedule."

Precisely.

[ZFT]

"Most of the SLF buy based on price, with a perhaps a slight consideration to schedule."

Precisely.

Providing it's their own money. Very different with company cash. (Just rejected a claim that was almost double what it should have been because the claimer didn't care. He will in future! I could have booked a better class, direct flight cheaper.)

[crewmeal]

Why do people on here think that the public will ever shop by comfort over price? Price has become the prime factor for the majority in most purchases. The need to get a bargain supersedes all other considerations for many.

Because they take to Trip Advisor and say how awful the flight was and there was no room to stretch your legs and the seat was too small, plus everything else.

When I attempted to choose my seats, there was an exorbitant charge. The seat configuration is the same as economy as well.

I called BA to question the policy, given the fact I had paid so much more for my ticket, and the HUFFY agent explained I can choose the leftover seat 24 hours in advance for free. This policy is true for all classes of travel with BA. I feel somewhat ripped off and will not fly with them again.
The AA legs of the trip allowed me to choose seats for free.

[Volume]

Price has become the prime factor for the majority in most purchases.But only because price and quality are very often totally unrelated these days. There were times when saying "you get what you pay for" was totally right, today very often a low cost carrier will provide a better product than an expensive one...
I do not expect BA to all of a sudden become as cheap as Icelandair across the atlantic, only because they now squeeze 10 SLF in a row.

[Harry Wayfarers]

"Most of the SLF buy based on price, with a perhaps a slight consideration to schedule."

Precisely.


But when innocent, as I was of the B777 at the time, folk don't buy on price we expect a reasonable level of comfort for an overnight 12 hour sector ... BA would be another "no way" to my list but they were already on that list of mine already!

[icemanalgeria]

Ryanair comfort for BA prices.
I wish there was a standard spec for all airline seats.

[Ancient Mariner]

Just back from a total 30 hours Emirates B777, 10 abreast, no complaints.
And I've used their Business Class several times. You get what you pay for.
Per

[Harry Wayfarers]

Go A330/A340/B767 ... 2/4/2 seating ... Lovely Jubbly

[Flightmech]

https://www.headforpoints.com/2018/03/08/new-british-airways-a321-thin-seats-tiny-loos/

That doesn't look like fun either. Those ex BMI 321's had a great Business Class too!

[ZFT]

The toilets appear to be based on a British Rail station!

[AndoniP]

It would also probably depend on how 'big' you are. I've never had a problem with seat width, neither has my wife or children, hence we choose based on cost most of the time (as paying for flights for a family of 4 isn't cheap in the first place). We're not particularly fussy flyers.


If the flight was longer than, say, 5+ hours then I'd start looking at seatguru, for things like IFE, comfort and so on if I was taking the family away.

[Doors to Automatic]

Teachme - I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

I think BA is missing a bit of a trick personally. I think they could rationalise into two classes, business and economy but with the following product differentials:

1. A bargain basement economy class - 10 abreast 777 seating, with everything extra to the fare.

2. An enchanced economy with comfortable wide seats with better pitch and everything included, although not quite as spacious as WTP. A few rows of extra leg-room seats pre-bookable at a slight premium.

3. A budget Club Class with all the trimmings but with standard seats with a good recline. Slightly improved on current WTP seats.Maybe something along the lines of the Norwegian Premium seat on their 787s.

4. An enhanced Club Class with lie-flat beds but more spacious than current Club World.

This would rationalise the products, make them uniform across the fleet and stations and do away with WTP and First, with cost savings. Leisure aircraft (such as LGW-based 777s) could lose the enhanced Club cabin for a greater number of basic economy seats.

I really do think this would be a good way forward for the airline and enable it to get a lot more seats into each aircraft with little hit on yield. By my calculations they could get an extra 50-60 seats onto a 777-300ER and 40-50 onto a 787-9.

[birmingham]

Glad BA continues with it's determined quest to becoming just another LOCO. Glad because my limited staff travel facility with former employer has just expired and I have to go with the loco's like everyone else. Recent Paphos/Glasgow with Jet2 was pure delight & the cabin crew were prettier than BA. And that was only the stewards.

The press release tells us the new smaller seats are more comfortable - I hadn't realised that. Thought they would feel more cramped!

Seriously though; I've travelled many times on Emirates 10 abreast in the 777 and while obviously not as good as 9 abreast, they are at least bearable. A 3x4x3 777 will always be more comfortable than a 9 abreast Sardineliner which in my view set a new bar in discomfort. Indeed it holds the distinction of being the only type I'm aware of to have forced a redesign when BA pax finally hoofed it to the competition. Even then it was revamped 3x3x3 rather than revert to the original 2x4x2 design.

Comes down to an unremitting focus on shareholder value - which is what CEOs get paid on. So wherever possible the modern airline charges as much as they can get away with and provide as little as they can get away with... and while the pax keep on coming that is the way it will stay.

[wowzz]

Teachme - I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

I think BA is missing a bit of a trick personally. I think they could rationalise into two classes, business and economy but with the following product differentials:

1. A bargain basement economy class - 10 abreast 777 seating, with everything extra to the fare.

2. An enchanced economy with comfortable wide seats with better pitch and everything included, although not quite as spacious as WTP. A few rows of extra leg-room seats pre-bookable at a slight premium.

3. A budget Club Class with all the trimmings but with standard seats with a good recline. Slightly improved on current WTP seats.Maybe something along the lines of the Norwegian Premium seat on their 787s.

4. An enhanced Club Class with lie-flat beds but more spacious than current Club World.

This would rationalise the products, make them uniform across the fleet and stations and do away with WTP and First, with cost savings. Leisure aircraft (such as LGW-based 777s) could lose the enchanced Club cabin for a greater number of basic economy seats.

I really do think this would be a good way forward for the airline and enable it to get a lot more seats into each aircraft with little hit on yield. By my calculations they could get an extra 50-60 seats onto a 777-300ER and 40-50 onto a 787-9.

Looks like Virgin might be listening, as they have announced a 3 tier economy configuration, with economy 'delight' seating, offering a 34" pitch, but still in the economy cabin.

[birmingham]

Looks like Virgin might be listening, as they have announced a 3 tier economy configuration, with economy 'delight' seating, offering a 34" pitch, but still in the economy cabin.

This is probably to align themselves with new shareholder Delta who have had this for a while and whose very frequent fliers get it and expect it for free (as do their competitor's VFF on UA & AA). Virgin don't use the 777 so no 3x4x3 comparison here - their Sardineliner economy layout is just as miserable as BA's however, narrow hard seats - apparently it's progress.

[tomdotcom]

I didnt notice many pensioners in the test, or kids, or people with mobility issues.... just saying

[Heathrow Harry]

TBH BA's new "offerings" have one major issue - the seat cushions are non -existant - they seem to be about one inch deep and made of solid plastic

So "good" that Great Western Railways hae installed them on all their new trains........... ouch, ouch, ouch.......

[tdracer]

Go A330/A340/B767 ... 2/4/2 seating ... Lovely Jubbly

Slightly anal correction - B767 is 2/3/2. It's capable of 2/4/2 but you don't want to fly on one so configured. I did a flight test ages ago on a 767 bound for an African operator that had a 2/4/2 coach configuration - out of curiosity I tried one of the seats and nearly got stuck (I'm not a large person, and was ~50 lbs. lighter back then than now). 2/3/2 in coach is one reason why the 767 remains one of my favorite aircraft (of course personal bias comes in to play as well since my first program at Boeing was the 767)

[WHBM]

The issue with bargain basement Y having more squashed seats than standard Y is that UK APD at the standard rate only applies to the lowest standard of accommodation - everything above gets the huge higher rate. That came from F-C-Y days, but if you now have C-Y-Squashed Y then the higher rate applies to the regular Y.

Regarding the squeezing down of seats, it is a universal mantra among its advocates that nobody is put off by it, they are only interested in the lowest fare. It follows therefore that all the effort Boeing are putting in to making the 777X cabin interior 6" wider by some reduction of the cabin walls would be of no interest to such operators. They will only be interested if it allows, with other squashing measures, another seat to go in, at 3-5-3.

Incidentally, that "lowest fares" bit about all of this is a Pinocchio moment as well. With several carriers that have now done this with seating, I notice not the slightest reduction in fares compared to before. in fact the opposite.

[ExXB]

The,lords and ladies would object to no F!

[Harry Wayfarers]

An additional 6'', 0.6'' per seat is going to make a difference on a 12 hour (ish) night flight to SIN ... NO IT ISN'T ... It was the most uncomfortable flight ever!

To hell with them, if ever I should opt to pay a return visit to the land of Brexit then I'll opt for something like a 2/4/2 A330 carrier, someone like Oman Air, to hell with these BA type cowboy outfits and their flogging Marks & Sparks sarnies!

[DaveReidUK]

It follows therefore that all the effort Boeing are putting in to making the 777X cabin interior 6" wider by some reduction of the cabin walls would be of no interest to such operators. They will only be interested if it allows, with other squashing measures, another seat to go in, at 3-5-3.

Well of no interest to all-Y operators.

But to most airlines (including BA), given that the 6" wider fuselage extends all the way to the front of the aircraft, that could well amount to a useful enhancement to the F or C product.

[ExXB]

land of Brexit!

I think it is land of Brexile, not Brexit