Things are getting interesting at RYR for Cadets

[jonesyinthesky]

never thought i would see this, uncle Mick is subsidising FO type ratings - Christmas has come early if you didn't have money for their type rating, decent deal, €5k up front and not €29,500 payment, just bonded for 5 years - wonder if other LCC will follow suit.

https://careers.ryanair.com/cadets/

there is a video on linkedin as well

[Skyhigh_]

That's some news! Definitely a game changer...

[aerodestination]

interesting times.

new salary figures I've seen for FOs and captains are very appealing too. They are in need of a lot of pilots, on linkedin in the video they mentioned 720 cadets a year. So this bonding was to be expected.

[mrspinx]

Certainly a very interesting development. I passed selection two weeks ago and am scheduled to begin end of April. Haven't signed any contract yet, so I'm wondering whether I fall into this new bracket or not..

I'm in exactly the same position. It would be very nice to be offered the new scheme!

[iome]

What's the current time to command for an experienced 737 pilot? By experienced I mean exceeding the current command upgrade requirements.

 2900 hrs total time
 1500 hrs on CS-25 type aircraft
 800 hrs on B737-800 in Ryanair

[Maverick97]

It’s crazy to think I nearly enrolled on an integrated course with a flight school with the intention to pay 30K+ for a type rating with EZY. I certainly dodged a bullet there...

[Dudley Do Right]

"REASONS TO JOIN RYANAIR

No upfront payment of €29,500"

Really, they cite not having to pay €29,500 upfront for the privilege of working for them as a reason to join.:ugh:

[Thad Jarvis]

Much as I hate the fact that Easyjet charge for ratings (at the minute) the £30k would be recouped very quickly when compared to the equivalent career path in Ryanair.

[AMS]

Whats not to understand?

There is no shortage of finding 200 hour cadets - but it was a challenge for them to find the €29900 funding.

This guarantees more bite as those who never applied due to affordability actually apply;
Also new applications

and the biggest of all PUBLICITY - in the market where they were once slated - all the people will now be singing their praises! :)

They will certainly attract lots more - to fill their inevitable attrition rates.

Effectively CAE will sticking more of their chaps through.

[172_driver]

I don't really understand this... I thought there was no shortage of 200 hour cadets? Are they trying to lure away turboprop pilots etc? Bulk up the experience coming in?

Ryanair is certainly after the 5 year bond. That'll stop FOs leaving 2-3 years from starting when they've racked up just enough hours to be interesting elsewhere.

[eduelp]

Guys.... read between the lines....

The only reason for RYR to offer cadets a "free" type-rating is that they have retention issues with their current FOs...

The website already mentions a 5 year bond and I would recommend you to really look at all the conditions attached to it. And that bond most-likely leads to another one for command upgrade. Most likely this 5-to-8 year bond will end up costing you more than self-sponsoring your type ratings... either in money or in your liberty/QOL.

It is Ryanair what we are talking about after all... but it may be some good news for those with no other option.

[captain8]

As an experienced Captain, its a great day out when I'm flying with a colleague who has say, a couple of 1000 hours, is motivated and experienced on type.

Flying with a 200 hour cadet is fine, but its for 90% of flights , my job all the more harder, more fatiguing and require a higher workload.

Introducing 700 cadets in a year to RYA will up the monitoring levels and ultimately, stress levels of their current captains. Good luck. Especially if ICAO language is only level 4 .

[HundredPercentPlease]

What that page doesn't say is that there's currently a 5 month wait for line training. Unpaid.

[Rated De]

Ryanair are the sort of 'company' where a handshake with officialdom requires a quick check to see if the wristwatch is still present, the wallet in the pocket and the wedding ring (if worn) still on the appropriate digit...

[TheMightyAtom]

It's fairly common information for the last 6 months or so

Don't forget the odd month delay somewhere in the Sim training. All in virtually even split between a 25k discount on the TR and 6 months picking your naval vs. if you paid full price and they got their act together with the training.

[iome]

Where did you get this numbers from?

Minimum 2800hr on type for FOs ( around 3+ years min in the company) to start the upgrade process or am I wrong?

Those numbers are the requirements from the latest RTC document

[Normal Pilot]

There is no shortage of 200hr cadets willing to pay circa €30,000 for a type rating.

Only reason RYR are doing this is to retain pilots, 5 year bond, they are recruiting guaranteed future captains, not cadets.

They currently have an issue retaining experienced FO's and captains, this solves the issue. Even though they are doing it for themselves, it is a significant improvement for people trying to get that first airline job, other airlines will follow.

[Normal Pilot]

True, there will always be people who leave no matter what bond they have, but it certainly is a huge deterrent. No idea what the details are of the new scheme, but it may not even be a decreasing bond!

RYR just need to open their eyes, rather than firing more money at people, just listen to what the current workforce want.

A Transparent base transfer system and an annual leave system that works and a bit of respect. They wouldn't have problems retaining people, I certainly wouldn't have left.

[Airone2977]

There is no shortage of 200hr cadets willing to pay circa €30,000 for a type rating.


Not quite sure about that :=, there is significant number of cadets which do not continue with the TR within the 6 months time frame, either for financial reason or job found elsewhere with better T&C's.

There is only a shortage of pilot able to reach the airline requirement, skills of "low timers" is bad, everybody knows that.

[vrb03kt]

It's not free, it says very clearly that it costs 5000 EUR.

I've no idea of the payscales once you join as to whether or not they claw it back from you.

Still, L3 and easyjet/BA now looks like an even more extremely expensive way to become a pilot.

[UAV689]

Will look forward to seeing the pay they are offering, I would hazard a guess they will pay way less than the rating cost over that period, it's how their brains work! and
are still making them become contractors. How can you bond a contractor? now the cadets will not have many expenses to claim of tax man leaving them a very large tax bill having to pay ryr's portion of social security, so no advantage to becoming a contractor.

Why also this arbitrary 5k figure, just make it free! That 5k is rent and food for the cadet, They just can't do nothing for free...like when they give us the free winter jackets but charge us £10 postage...it's in their mentality!

The 5-6month wait to start line training is common at the moment, he pipeline has struggled. Many line trainers quiting, weekly adverts for more line trainer positions at all bases...

[SanHor]

Sign a bond, be limited to operate for Ryanair.
On the other hand you are self-employed.

The tax returns will be of interest for the tax authorities around Europe and probably they are rubbing their hands in glee...

[SanHor]

Rumour from somebody undergoing training at RYR.

E10 less per hour.

So let’s assume 800 hours per year.
800x E10 = E8000
5 years x E8000 = E40000

[Skyhigh_]

I heard from a good source that there are no deductions in salary and Cadets will get paid from day 1 of Base Training.
Sounds like a pretty good deal, your training will only cost you 5K and there is a reducing bond of 5 years.

[JulietSierra6]

Agree with the above... they are not doing this as a genuine gesture to improve the T’s & C’s of the cadets, they really do not operate that way. As has been mentioned they have appalling retention rates for FO’s who rightly realise there are far better options out there. On the surface perhaps better than paying €29,000 Eur upfront but you can guarantee there will be some sort of ‘salary’ sacrifice. I use the term salary loosely as I’m sure these cadets will still be contractors, which is the main major issue in RYR. Get everybody employed on genuine contracts, then I’ll call it a step forward!

[hoduka]

I heard from a good source that there are no deductions in salary and Cadets will get paid from day 1 of Base Training.
Sounds like a pretty good deal, your training will only cost you 5K and there is a reducing bond of 5 years.


But if you are waiting 5 months till line training you wont get paid during that period right? - as per rumours

So that 1 day salary for the base training, then a wait for almost half a year for the next cent.

That doesnt sound a pretty good deal for me, altough, its great that things are moving this way in this industry - someday they will even buy you your uniform...

[Airone2977]

Meanwhile :

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ryanair-s-michael-o-leary-joins-forbes-billionaire-list-1.3417345

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[jonesyinthesky]

I heard from a good source that there are no deductions in salary and Cadets will get paid from day 1 of Base Training.
Sounds like a pretty good deal, your training will only cost you 5K and there is a reducing bond of 5 years.

i have spoken to the other half and there is no salary reduction, no catches, you are paid exactly the same as normal fo and offered either a Ryanair contract or agency contract at the end of training, the bond is not reducing like APC whereby they take it from salary. You are paid from base training. RYR do not have a problem with applications but a lot of good candidates are missing out because they couldn't afford the type rating. The difference here is that they are paying you during base training and you get a Ryanair contract during trainig which wasnt the case before, basic salary of €21k and €16 psbh once released from safety pilot.

[CaptFlyer]

i have spoken to the other half and there is no salary reduction, no catches, you are paid exactly the same as normal fo and offered either a Ryanair contract or agency contract at the end of training, the bond is not reducing like APC whereby they take it from salary. You are paid from base training. RYR do not have a problem with applications but a lot of good candidates are missing out because they couldn't afford the type rating. The difference here is that they are paying you during base training and you get a Ryanair contract during trainig which wasnt the case before, basic salary of €21k and €16 psbh once released from safety pilot.

So if you fly about 85 sbh per month it gives you : 1750 € (basic) + 1360 € (16*83) = 3110 € before tax, which would give between 2300 to 2500 € net on a busy month ? If that's correct, that's quite low... If you put it over a 4 year period (before becoming cpt) you will earn much less than what f/o can make now (half less !), even by taking into account the 29,5k type rating. Am I missing something ?

[jonesyinthesky]

So if you fly about 85 sbh per month it gives you : 1750 € (basic) + 1360 € (16*83) = 3110 € before tax, which would give between 2300 to 2500 € net on a busy month ? If that's correct, that's quite low... If you put it over a 4 year period (before becoming cpt) you will earn much less than what f/o can make now (half less !), even by taking into account the 29,5k type rating. Am I missing something ?

no no no, that is just for the 6 month training contract, they weren't paid previously, you then go onto normal rate.

DUB is as follows;
base salary = €25,400
productivity bonus = €6k
sector pay = €37,818
Allowance = €5.5k
Total = €74,718

[MarkSRFC]

*Possible silly question*

What dictates whether you are offered a RYR contract or McGinley contractor one etc when joining?

Is it simply the company's discretion or based on TR performance/ base you're assigned to or something else?

[HundredPercentPlease]

jonesyinthesky,

I'm going to guess you are something to do with FR management. Because only FR management count the "allowance" (an amount for stuff you have to pay for - which is paid for by the company in all other airlines) as salary.

And your sector pay? Based on how many hours?
And the productivity bonus? Is that guaranteed, or do you blow it if something outside of your control happens?

And what if you are sent to Poland, rather than DUB?

And why no pay for the 5+ months waiting for line training? Real airlines pay you from completion of the LST.

And why such a crap deal while you are line training? Just an excuse to get a cheap bum in the seat to move the pax like any other pilot

Stinks.

[jonesyinthesky]

jonesyinthesky,

I'm going to guess you are something to do with FR management. Because only FR management count the "allowance" (an amount for stuff you have to pay for - which is paid for by the company in all other airlines) as salary.

And your sector pay? Based on how many hours?
And the productivity bonus? Is that guaranteed, or do you blow it if something outside of your control happens?

And what if you are sent to Poland, rather than DUB?

And why no pay for the 5+ months waiting for line training? Real airlines pay you from completion of the LST.

And why such a crap deal while you are line training? Just an excuse to get a cheap bum in the seat to move the pax like any other pilot

Stinks.

if you read my previous post you might have noticed my other half works there and i am EX RYR, i fly for another LCC and i am very much enjoying myself at the moment

however, i will forgive your ignorance and tone and answer the following;

there is little variation between bases, i should know, i spent time in WRO, BGY and PSA as part of my command upgrade programme, they couldn't get away with having large salary differences between bases.

they base their sector pay on avg 850 hours per annum, productivity is based on offering to work 3 off days in Nov/Dec

to be fair this is a much better deal than under previous one Mc Ginley contract. Cadets are going to go from not owing close to €30k to only €5k plus they are now earning from base training.

i am more than happy to answer questions and draw upon my RYR experience and inside knowledge but i will not tolerate rudeness.

[iamryranair]

Hi All, please feel free to ask me anything re this programme.

[Luggage]

never thought i would see this, uncle Mick is subsidising FO type ratings - Christmas has come early if you didn't have money for their type rating, decent deal, €5k up front and not €29,500 payment, just bonded for 5 years - wonder if other LCC will follow suit.

https://careers.ryanair.com/cadets/

there is a video on linkedin as well

Why pay anything? This is the problem with European pilots, you complain about low industry pay but actively take part in P2F....I mean really!!

Stand together and stop this nonsense, show a little patience and have some dignity FFS!!

[eduelp]

if you read my previous post you might have noticed my other half works there and i am EX RYR, i fly for another LCC and i am very much enjoying myself at the moment

however, i will forgive your ignorance and tone and answer the following;

there is little variation between bases, i should know, i spent time in WRO, BGY and PSA as part of my command upgrade programme, they couldn't get away with having large salary differences between bases.

they base their sector pay on avg 850 hours per annum, productivity is based on offering to work 3 off days in Nov/Dec

to be fair this is a much better deal than under previous one Mc Ginley contract. Cadets are going to go from not owing close to €30k to only €5k plus they are now earning from base training.

i am more than happy to answer questions and draw upon my RYR experience and inside knowledge but i will not tolerate rudeness.

I actually have a question: you seem to be quite happy about the conditions in RYR, but you mention you are EX RYR. Why did you leave then?

[jonesyinthesky]

I actually have a question: you seem to be quite happy about the conditions in RYR, but you mention you are EX RYR. Why did you leave then?


long haul/wide body exp but I will be back, left on good terms, if you leave on good terms and don't abandon your contract etc they will welcome you back, lots of my ex RYR colleagues left on bad terms which in hindsight was slightly foolish because most were Irish and will want to return home to fly one day, with RYR being the only 737 gig in town, some applied to go back but were not successful because of this, one lad I know ended up in far east and is now at Air Baltic but is desperate to come back to UK/Ireland

[adolf hucker]

if you read my previous post you might have noticed my other half works there and i am EX RYR, i fly for another LCC and i am very much enjoying myself at the moment

however, i will forgive your ignorance and tone and answer the following;

there is little variation between bases, i should know, i spent time in WRO, BGY and PSA as part of my command upgrade programme, they couldn't get away with having large salary differences between bases.

they base their sector pay on avg 850 hours per annum, productivity is based on offering to work 3 off days in Nov/Dec

to be fair this is a much better deal than under previous one Mc Ginley contract. Cadets are going to go from not owing close to €30k to only €5k plus they are now earning from base training.

i am more than happy to answer questions and draw upon my RYR experience and inside knowledge but i will not tolerate rudeness.

If you won’t tolerate rudeness, I suggest a return to Ryanair’s style of management might be a bad move for you.

[MCDU2]

Can't see it stemming the tide for a number of reasons. Firstly, the bond is probably not enforceable by EU law and secondly the nature of the type of person who will skip on the bond is that they will soon be out of whatever country they are based in working for a new employer with no forwarding address. A cross border legal action would be a nightmare.

[hoduka]

That sounds good to me
Any figures on the rest? sectors etc, and on the rest of the contract? plus if its before/after tax

I would be so happy if this would be true, altough cant understand that 5000 euros, with the MCC required, but this is not for us to solve anyway

h

[22052014]

do you kniw if you get paid at least the basic salary after base training.

once you completed the base training which is when you have the Type written on the licence you still need to do OCC and wait for the start of line training.

would be a good deal if you get paid the basic each month while waiting for line training, I guess like everybody I have some momthoy cost that needs to be paid.

but of is getting nothing, then between base training and start of line training can pass few months and that will be a problem.

any info on it ?

[hoduka]

According to the last 2 posts of Xanderfly, the basic should be 23000pa, so I guess it should cover the basic needs, even if you have to wait for a few months.

Still, you have to cover yourself during the initial training - but hey, what happened(seems to be happening) is something i would never saw coming

Thank you Xander!

[carpentermichael]

I have a few questions, that i think everybody wants to know more about.

Would you guys still take this ''new'' deal if you were expecting to leave after 2-3 years? ?

How about the salary, now that you won't get paid through your LTD company, wouldn't the taxes be much higher = lower income?

If you get employed on a Ryanair contract, i suppose you will still get paid when you're sick etc. etc. ?

Let's say you are based in Milano, you're paying taxes etc. etc. in Milano only, right?

Are there any pay raise? After 500 hours, after 1500 hours? like on the old contract.

It seems like alot of you guys are really good to give in depth answers, i hope this will also be the case now.
I hope i'll see you in the skies
Auf wiedersehen

[nightfright]

[quote=carpentermichael

Hopefully this may help:

Would you guys still take this ''new'' deal if you were expecting to leave after 2-3 years? ?

The whole point of the bonding is retention - if you are going to leave in that time frame - pay up the bond and leave.
Simple as that - there is a cost - you cannot have your cake and eat it. Sorry but there is no free lunch - they are a commercial company ...

How about the salary, now that you won't get paid through your LTD company, wouldn't the taxes be much higher = lower income?

:ugh:

If you get employed on a Ryanair contract, i suppose you will still get paid when you're sick etc. etc. ?
If you are employed by the company yes you would get paid when sick etc

Let's say you are based in Milano, you're paying taxes etc. etc. in Milano only, right?
most likely yes you will only pay tax in one country.

Are there any pay raise? After 500 hours, after 1500 hours? like on the old contract.
not sure

[MaverickPrime]

A lot of posts have disappeared from this thread?

[iome]

From the horse's mouth:

The bond is for €25.000 reducing €5.000 per year to zero at the end of year 5

What contract will I get upon completion of Ground School & will I be paid during training?
You will get a Ryanair contract for the duration of 6 months and you will be paid during training from the day you pass your base training. For the duration of this 6-month fixed term training contract you will be paid at a basic gross annual salary of £21,000

You will also be entitled to receive flight expenses from the 1st of the month following your Safety Pilot release in the form of Sector pay at the rate of £16.04 per Scheduled Block Hour (SBH)

After the 6 months training contract, both UK end EU basic salary is just over £23.000/€23.000
Allowance is £5.500/€5.500
Productivity bonus £6.000/€6.000
Annual leave payment £2.800/€3.200-4.600 (base dependant)

Flight pay varies between bases. For 850hrs you can expect:
GBR £27.000 - IRL €33.900 - DEU €36.300 - BEL €32.300
PRT €33.100 - ESP €33.900 - ITA €33.900 - East EU €29.700

[carpentermichael]

Can we have some pros and cons between each program, so it would make it easier for the cadets to choose. I'll start.

Self sponsored:
Pros = Alot higher earning potential than on the bonding scheme


5 Year bonding
Pros = Cheap T/R if you do all 5 years

Help me out guys, please.

[Luke258]

nightfright;

:ugh:
The type rating costs Ryanair as close to zero. They earned hundred of thousands of euros with the pilots. But I've seen guys like you defending Ryanair like your life is depending on it. Let me tell you this. There are companies out there that actually pay your type rating and they pay you throughout the type rating. And they are commercial companies as well ;)
Basic salary of 21,000€ is a joke if you don't get a guaranteed amount of flight allowance. Let's say they pay you 50h guaranteed.
Get a grip man.

[Luke258]

jonesyinthesky

Likewise I've met tons of ex Ryanair guys that are so glad to finally have made the move out of this stinky so called company. It's a kindergarden. And it's becoming worse and worse there. Who in the world would return with to them with the current management in place and the current so called "deals"? By the way there are other companies flying out of Dublin with 737s ;)

[Porcellino]

nightfright;

:ugh:
The type rating costs Ryanair as close to zero. They earned hundred of thousands of euros with the pilots. But I've seen guys like you defending Ryanair like your life is depending on it. Let me tell you this. There are companies out there that actually pay your type rating and they pay you throughout the type rating. And they are commercial companies as well ;)
Basic salary of 21,000€ is a joke if you don't get a guaranteed amount of flight allowance. Let's say they pay you 50h guaranteed.
Get a grip man.

I will get a grip when you name me 1 of those "commercial companies" that will hire me with 250 TT and MCC

[nightfright]

Luke258


I am not defending RYR but all I am saying is that it is a commercial organisation there to make profits.

Correct that the TR may not cost them anything - they do not HAVE to offer you that rating for free. They are able to charge what they like and make you work for kebab or for free.. IF you accept those conditions ... then fine.

Having a RYR on your cv and those hours will mean more opportunities even in a downturn hence ...

There are lots of companies which offer you paid TR although only starting recently. And pay you from day 1 - there is a reason for these .....

Loganair, Flybe etc all pay the TR but when you compare the TR, benefits of type and hours, versus the basic salary as you are comparing - then you will find a plus point on RYR

FlyBe, Loganair, Eastern etc all pay a lower salary than FR. yes albeit a perm contract.... but photos, hours and the rest do not put food on the table....... if you are lucky to have the support then great - many don’t.

I totally believe any company should bear its recruitment, training costs on fully and take the risk as well because without that they don’t have a business.......... sadly this is a profession which doesn’t because people have always been ready to work for a peanut in exchange for crap conditions - unless you are extremely lucky or well connected. Thus is why they can charge that - even if unfair. But it all depends on how desperate you are........

I am certainly not out their to protect companies that extort, treat its people like crap - but you have to understand they are not forcing you to apply - don’t apply or accept their conditions if you don’t.

Hope that helps

[Porcellino]

DHL, Luxair, EuroWings, ASL Airlines as far as I know, FlyBe should hire again soon I heard, Jet2, Cathay Pacific and I'm sure these aren't the only one.
Thank you, but I haven't heard from DHL in the last 2 months, luxair is not hiring since end of December, eurowings is not hiring, ASL Airlines no vacancies at the moment, FlyBe is not at the moment, jet2 needs also JOC, and Cathay I've applied a month ago. So with what I've said in mind how bad is Ryanair currently offering me a job in my current situation? I know is always a big debate in this forums but for some people is not so easy to let go such and opportunity.
Edit: Loganair looking for experienced captains and first officers
As I mentioned there aren't so many when you are below that experience threshold

[P06T]

I will get a grip when you name me 1 of those "commercial companies" that will hire me with 250 TT and MCC

Aer Lingus recruits zero hour pilots with a frozen ATPL (MCC+joc).

Bonded for 3 years you don't pay for any training whatsoever and get paid from day 1 of your employment. Salary is equal to those on a permanent contract and mostly based on your basic so financially you are in a secure position.

I can't understand why a much more profitable airline such as FR wouldn't offer the same if not better recruitment offers.

[Groundloop]

I can't understand why a much more profitable airline such as FR wouldn't offer the same if not better recruitment offers.

Simple - they don't have to.

[vrb03kt]

Aer Lingus have a cadet/non type rated salary for the first 2 (I believe) years. The trend these days is that you will pay for it, somehow. It might not be as ludicrous as 30k upfront, but you are paying for it.

[MCDU2]

There is a cadet salary at AL but the new joiners also get from day 1 a salary, final salary pension, sector pay, performance pay, uniform, carpark, all training included, food and water, overnight allowances, hotac accommodation, seniority list, union, working conditions etc etc. Incomparable to FR or any of the bottom feeders.

[MaverickPrime]

IMHO, that there are many airlines out there who recruit fATPLs and pay them better, at least initially. However, there are no airlines out there who recruit anywhere near the number of fATPLs that Ryanair do. Unless you include Easyjet, but they only recruit cadets from the space academies.

Anyhow, like it or not and if you can get over your anti-Ryanair fundamentalism, you will see that Ryanair has vastly improved and is no longer the bad guy on the block. There are many other employers out there that deserve everyones scorn other than Ryanair.

[anderse]

Here is the new deal.
Bonus of €6 000/yr will be paid if you dont have any sickdays (as far as I know)

These contracts are OK if you are young and healthy. As soon as something happens, you’re ****** with the basic salary

[RAT 5]

There is a cadet salary at AL but the new joiners also get from day 1 a salary, final salary pension, sector pay, performance pay, uniform, carpark, all training included, food and water, overnight allowances, hotac accommodation, seniority list, union, don't forget staff interline.

For an 'apprentice' scheme that seems pretty attractive, even if you have to contribute over 2 years.

Bonus of €6 000/yr will be paid if you dont have any sickdays (as far as I know)

If that is true I would expect the relevant XAA to take an interest as it suggests an incentive to fly when unfit.

[angel.pilot]

Hi guys!

What about the APC programme?
I've been successful at the APC assessment and got an invitation to start the TR on 23rd of April, but I still didn't receive any contract and signed anything.

Do you know anything about that?

[vrb03kt]

There is a cadet salary at AL but the new joiners also get from day 1 a salary, final salary pension, sector pay, performance pay, uniform, carpark, all training included, food and water, overnight allowances, hotac accommodation, seniority list, union, working conditions etc etc. Incomparable to FR or any of the bottom feeders.

I don't dispute that, my point is that it's not quite as amazing a deal as P06T suggested and you are still paying for it, even though you also get what should be normal employment terms (but thanks to Ryanair etc are seen as perks).

Also, RAT 5 the deduction is for non TR people as well. I'm far from being an apprentice but I'm not airbus type rated so would earn a 'cadet' salary.

[A4]

Unless you include Easyjet, but they only recruit cadets from the space academies.

Wrong. EZY are also recruiting type rated AND non type rated direct entry Captains and FO’s. Don’t know if recruiting is finished for this year - probably is, as they are very busy integrating all the Air Belin crews - (300+) along with the usual 400+ intake.

A4

[MaverickPrime]

Wrong. EZY are also recruiting type rated AND non type rated direct entry Captains and FO’s. Don’t know if recruiting is finished for this year - probably is, as they are very busy integrating all the Air Belin crews - (300+) along with the usual 400+ intake.

A4

Good to know they are recruiting some real experience. In my previous post when I referred to cadets I meant 200hr fATPLs, in which case you only get into EZY through CAE, L3 or FTE.

[P06T]

Aer Lingus have a cadet/non type rated salary for the first 2 (I believe) years. The trend these days is that you will pay for it, somehow. It might not be as ludicrous as 30k upfront, but you are paying for it.


If you join as a direct entry non type rated (fatpl) you will only spend 1 year on the cadet salary that you mentioned. During which you will have a comparable salary to that of FR’s bond (but you don’t pay 5k upfront) and as I previously mentioned your salary is not as heavily dependent on hours flown as FR.
But you certainly wouldn’t be paying them back 30k in a reduction in salary as you hinted.

On the second year your salary will increase considerably. So I hope this clears the air.


FR’s latest bond offer is a step in the right direction but it could be better.

[cx1990]

Here is the new deal.
Bonus of €6 000/yr will be paid if you dont have any sickdays (as far as I know)

These contracts are OK if you are young and healthy. As soon as something happens, you’re ****** with the basic salary
hi anderse

May I know where you got the information from?

[Luke258]

IMHO, that there are many airlines out there who recruit fATPLs and pay them better, at least initially. However, there are no airlines out there who recruit anywhere near the number of fATPLs that Ryanair do. Unless you include Easyjet, but they only recruit cadets from the space academies.

Anyhow, like it or not and if you can get over your anti-Ryanair fundamentalism, you will see that Ryanair has vastly improved and is no longer the bad guy on the block. There are many other employers out there that deserve everyones scorn other than Ryanair.

I worked for this company long enough to know that they haven't changed a bit. And you? Recently joined two striper, super proud and letting everyone on Instagram know that you're in Ryanair?
Let me understand please where they have "vastly" improved. As far as I'm concerned you'll get now 200€ more per month on average. So if at all the salary has been improved, which doesn't make them a nice airline to work for. You'll get that some day maybe.

[iome]

hi anderse

May I know where you got the information from?

Nowhere, as is not true.

Only unauthorised absence is mentioned. (ie. not following reporting procedure)
The company will recover those days by rostering some days off and the bonus will remain.

[Luke258]

Nowhere, as is not true.

Only unauthorised absence is mentioned. (ie. not following reporting procedure)
The company will recover those days by rostering some days off and the bonus will remain.

That's what they say. In the end they'll twist and turn it as they need to not have to pay you the money. Happend before already. Wouldn't believe a single word coming out of Eddie's or Michael's mouth.

[MaverickPrime]

I worked for this company long enough to know that they haven't changed a bit. And you? Recently joined two striper, super proud and letting everyone on Instagram know that you're in Ryanair?
Let me understand please where they have "vastly" improved. As far as I'm concerned you'll get now 200€ more per month on average. So if at all the salary has been improved, which doesn't make them a nice airline to work for. You'll get that some day maybe.

Don't have Instagram account and no I don't work for them either, but would be happy to accept the new deal.

As for you, perhaps you'd like to live with my family in law in SE Asia, then you'd know what a hard life is :ok:.

[Luke258]

Don't have Instagram account and no I don't work for them either, but would be happy to accept the new deal.

As for you, perhaps you'd like to live with my family in law in SE Asia, then you'd know what a hard life is :ok:.
Begging for flight hours to be able to pay bills. November salary was round about 500 Euros. You wanna know what a hard life is? Getting a credit by a bank to be able to pay your bills with a contract which is not worth the paper it is written on. Yup, I know what a hard life is. Thanks to people like you, that accept crappy deals like those, our profession goes down the drain. But suit yourself. the 200 Euros extra per month will make your panties wet, while others struggle to get a real contract with a fair basic salary. Others are fighting so this contractor model stops. You'd be doing everyone a solid by accepting this. Hats off to you.

[Luke258]

Hypocrite. You knew the deal when you signed up, extracted what you wanted, and now suddenly it's everyone's fault except your own. It's generally the ones who fiddle the tax system and get a comeuppance who are so bitter, or who fail to make the grade (PS English is a requirement!) Over the year, contractors do pretty well once they have deducted huge amounts of training costs, at which point, if they haven't really annoyed anyone, then they generally (edit: but not always) get a contract. I'm guessing 1) You didn't get a Ryanair contract 2) you haven't been to the third world proper 3) you weren't a BALPA member?
What an arrogant post. How long are you in the company? I knew nothing about that "deal". Guess what, for a non native english speaker, knowing nothing about irish or english tax law or employment law, this whole set up was quite confusing. Were there some voices saying it's a shady deal? Yes of course. Were there many people saying take it? Yes of course.
So now us pilots are the ones fiddling the tax system? Never even try to blame the company eh? Shall we talk about the raids of german custom police? Almost destroying our careers? FYI I have the LP level 6 ;) How's your german, italian, spanish going?
How about you cut the BS? Over the year contractors do well? What about those close to bankruptcy because of two consequent months off? What about those being stuck just before line training for several months? Why are there even training costs? And you do know that deducting those training costs from social insurance charges is partly illegal?
I also read if and generally. Why does this contractor model even exist? I was offered a Ryanair-Contract, I've been in the third world (whatever that is in your mind) and I was a VC-member from the very beginning, fighting for us pilots and our profession. Where were you? Anything else?

[iome]

Hypocrite. You knew the deal when you signed up, extracted what you wanted, and now suddenly it's everyone's fault except your own. It's generally the ones who fiddle the tax system and get a comeuppance who are so bitter, or who fail to make the grade (PS English is a requirement!) Over the year, contractors do pretty well once they have deducted huge amounts of training costs, at which point, if they haven't really annoyed anyone, then they generally (edit: but not always) get a contract. I'm guessing 1) You didn't get a Ryanair contract 2) you haven't been to the third world proper 3) you weren't a BALPA member?


Could not agree more... Usually they all happy to start because they can offset all the expenses, then complain when it suits them.

Beside McGinley is out the door anyway. (End of the year) Ryanair contracts are offered to all new joiners and are available also to current pilots.

[Luke258]

Could not agree more... Usually they all happy to start because they can offset all the expenses, then complain when it suits them.

Beside McGinley is out the door anyway. (End of the year) Ryanair contracts are offered to all new joiners and are available also to current pilots.
Yup finally some positive news. Did you read as well maybe that the ryanair lawyer tried to buy ryanair out of this? After they said theyre not being investigated on? Too bad the Managers of McGinley told the State Attorney another story.
Btw I keep hearing expenses. Why are there any? Why should I be happy to pay my own hotels and transportation? You guys have a healthy mindset. Probably working on your off days before for free as well, right?

[eduelp]

The funny thing is that normally all those that respond "you knew what you were signing" are usually the ones that a few years later come back crying to this forum :ok:... even more true for the case of RYR

Interesting human species...

By the way a friend of mine just joined Ryanair, he got one of those contractor contracts.... and no.... he doesn't have a clue of what he signed, his tax/social security obligations and so on

And I'm just going to throw a question: how many pilots in ryanair pilots file their tax returns in the countries they actually reside on (i.e. homebase country in >90% of the cases)? Because I know about a lot that do not...

[Luke258]

It is the individuals responsibility to understand the applicable tax laws. Ignorance is not a defence, I do sympathise to some extent, but it's fairly well known that setting up as a limited company requires payment of both employee and employer social security - and some tax evasion was downright crooked, such as the guy who was openly bragging that he was claiming for thousands of miles positioning out of base by car, whilst actually jumpseating for free.

Guys like this get done in the end, (and he did) and then they go around swearing bloody murder. As you well know, out of base gets extra compensation for incidentals (more so now), and frankly I'd rather have that than the sometimes lousy hotels booked by the company for employees.

I'm not au fait with offsetting training against tax, but I was referring to historical ATPL costs. Again you refer to a snap shot of part of a year. It also doesn't quite add up that you were offered a contract, because if you had, all your grievances would become academic. Or was it financially beneficial to stay as a contractor (oh, the irony)? And it does seem direct contracts are becoming the norm. Even maybe local contracts in some countries, if there is anything in the rumour I heard today. Your hyperbole is deliberately obfuscatory and misleading.

PS Bilingual since childhood thanks.PPS By 3rd world, I mean sub-saharan Africa, Bangladesh, etc not peering over the fence from a Goan beach resort. I don't you think would equate sensible budgeting as a Ryanair FO with the former, if you had experienced it. Humility and honesty go a long way in this game, and your reply to maverick prime did not sit well.

Wow, that sounds just like it came out of Eddie's Mouth. Funny thing is, that even after years it was not even clear to the relevant tax authorities and tax advisors how to apply taxes and social insurance. But sure, it is the Pilot's responsibility to understand everything about it. I am actually happy that the charges will be dropped against the pilots, which makes your argument invalid.
Those guys that you are talking about exist, but as you just said, it was some of them. Most of the pilots that I know in Ryanair don't have any criminal intentions.

Of course I know about it. Have you ever been out of base on short notice where you had to go in the lousiest hotel just so you don't lose any money? Or even better you actually lost money? Well, I have been. I'd rather have the company sort everything out for me. By the way, per diems would be also applicable then, you should know that.

Historical ATPL costs? So as you said you as a pilot should know about tax law. In germany you can't deduct it from the taxes, unless you can proof it is your second education.

Everyone deducted the Type Rating as you might know. Deducting a Type Rating, for which the company doesn't pay, just so you earn a decent salary. How ridiculous can it actually get?

It doesn't add up? Have you thought about the possibility that I have left the company and been offered a contract to stay? Doesn't cross your mind? My salary in November was less than 1000Euro. Sure the financial benefits were awesome...You're one bright mind aren't you.

Guys like you, accepting everything by the company and praising them, are one of the biggest problem this company has. Strike breaker on top probably. I have friends that flew all over the world and they were shocked by the stories they've heard from ryanair pilots.

Can I ask you again, how long are you in the company?

[Luke258]

Do you try and rile everyone around you like this at work? I've been at Ryanair a lot longer than you seem to think; several years, and I don't see the relevance anyway. Granted, Germany is one of the most harsh tax environments imaginable, so for that you have my sympathies (but still you deliberately fixate on winter pay slips). However, things do seem to be changing significantly for the better at Ryanair, (and I was a union number, pushing and voting for improvement) so I'm really pleased that it looks like FOs will get a better start at the company. While I assume you have now left, most of what you say is (hopefully) old news. At that, and so as not to flog this to death, over and out - Chill, Good luck.

Of course i fixate on winter pay slips. There should not be any major difference in your pay throughout the year. Things change significantly because finally the prosecutors are tightening the noose on them. They don't offer contracts because they are nice. You should know that being several years in the company. Don't get me wrong, i am more than happy that this contractor model seems to end soon for them. this is what i was fighting for. that they will not get any advantage over fair paying airlines anymore. That they play by the same rules. otherwise our profession goes down the drain. My news are not that old by the way. And yes one thing youre right about. I have left. Together with many others. That's the only language that they speak unfortunately. Good luck to you as well, if you are still there. I am still hoping for the best for everyone there.

[eduelp]

Stockholm Syndrome

[Luke258]

Jesus you seem to be very angry at Ryanair. You also sound a bit frustrated. I would recommend you to consider a career change, very unhealthy for you.
I have my reasons, just like many others. Again, you seem to have lived behind the moon or just have been hired from flight school.
What's unhealthy is up to you to learn. Contracts like the mcginley one for example are unhealthy. But you'd probably fly for free. And don't worry about my career. I made a big step ahead and I'm enjoying every bit of it at the moment.

[gearlever]

I have my reasons, just like many others. Again, you seem to have lived behind the moon or just have been hired from flight school.
What's unhealthy is up to you to learn. Contracts like the mcginley one for example are unhealthy. But you'd probably fly for free. And don't worry about my career. I made a big step ahead and I'm enjoying every bit of it at the moment.

Volltreffer:ok:

[VJW]

Fixating on winter months pay and complaining about it simply shows naivety if you ask me. I always found it strange when FO’s would brag about how much they made during the summer, and then whine when the reverse was true in the winter. I use to just work out what 800hrs pay was and pay myself 800/12 worth of hours each month to cover me for months off/slow months. Anything over 800 hrs a year was a bonus at the end. Think some people need to understand you can’t do 100hrs every month of the year...

Of course I’m not advocating the employment practices there, but if you were/are a contractor, it’s not rocket science - and ending up with 500-1000euro net pay in any month, is no ones else’s fault but your own.

[Luke258]

Fixating on winter months pay and complaining about it simply shows naivety if you ask me. I always found it strange when FO’s would brag about how much they made during the summer, and then whine when the reverse was true in the winter. I use to just work out what 800hrs pay was and pay myself 800/12 worth of hours each month to cover me for months off/slow months. Anything over 800 hrs a year was a bonus at the end. Think some people need to understand you can’t do 100hrs every month of the year...

Of course I’m not advocating the employment practices there, but if you were/are a contractor, it’s not rocket science - and ending up with 500-1000euro net pay in any month, is no ones else’s fault but your own.
That's exactly what you're doing. How's it my fault if I earn 1000€ a month?? Stockholm Syndrom I see. How can you accept that you earn significantly less in winter? How can you have a stable lifestyle? If you don't get a basic salary you're screwed! Also if you get 20-30k basic and you think it's fine you're a fool. Your basic salary should cover most of your salary whereas flight sector pay should get you the bonus.
Btw it was not my fault since this airline canceled all flights to let line training guys fly.
Your attitude is, forgive my harshness, disgusting.

[flyingmed]

You really realise how bad it is about 6 months after leaving to a better company. It's a real pity FR don't offer the little things that matter but usually only come along with union help. Summer leave, not losing a day off on Christmas even though the airline is closed, seniority etc.

It would seem last years chance to get these 'perks' is again lost due to the greed of a few who only consider the immediate future. To those I say good luck when you have kids and try to go on summer vacation!

[Luke258]

I'm basing my personal assessment on how you address fellow professionals on this forum.
Congratulations 😂

[VJW]

That's exactly what you're doing. How's it my fault if I earn 1000€ a month?? Stockholm Syndrom I see. How can you accept that you earn significantly less in winter? How can you have a stable lifestyle? If you don't get a basic salary you're screwed! Also if you get 20-30k basic and you think it's fine you're a fool. Your basic salary should cover most of your salary whereas flight sector pay should get you the bonus.
Btw it was not my fault since this airline canceled all flights to let line training guys fly.
Your attitude is, forgive my harshness, disgusting.


It’s your fault because you probably naively thought that the money earned during the summer is what you’ll get all year.

Not sure how my attitude can be described as disgusting. It’s very simple logic and if you chose to live like a king during the summer 100 hr months expecting that income to remain the same all year round when you well know you only get paid for 900 hrs a year, then that reflects more on you than me.

As you mention Spain- do me a favour and ask the guy working at the pool bar if he earns the same in the winter as he does in the summer, and more importantly if he budgets accordingly.

The ‘should’ points you make are of course correct. I’ve since left and am with an airline that pays me about 85% of my income as a basic salary. While Ryanair ‘should’ do the same, that doesn’t mean that for the 9 years while I was BRK I didn’t plan/budget/save knowing the winter months were slower. I find it amazing people whine about that- and even more amazing they come here to vent.

I know RYR need pilots but doubt they had a gun to your head asking you to sign that contract..

[CaptainDutch]

Gentleman Gentlenman Gentleman, let us all try to keep this forum professional and more to the point and business like. PPRUNE should be about exchanging fact, figures and experiences. Every once and a while an emotion is O.K. but this thread has taken an unprofessional turn. This forum is a great place to share information about the airlines we work for so those who are looking to join or switch can make an informed decision. Let’s keep doing this for the greater good of us all.
I recently retired against my will at age 58 from KLM and because I still love to fly am about to join Ryanair, so I really appreciate all the info I read about FR on PPRUNE. Anybody wanting info on KLM just let me know. And for those of you who think I am nuts to join FR, don’t worry I believe I know what I am doing but I guess the prove is in eating the pudding or something like that.

[FlipFlapFlop]

I'm basing my personal assessment on how you address fellow professionals on this forum.
If there was a like button I would have used it. The displayed lack of respect and the childish lewd comments made render whatever his issue is as an irrelevance.

[viking767]

Gentleman Gentlenman Gentleman, let us all try to keep this forum professional and more to the point and business like. PPRUNE should be about exchanging fact, figures and experiences. Every once and a while an emotion is O.K. but this thread has taken an unprofessional turn. This forum is a great place to share information about the airlines we work for so those who are looking to join or switch can make an informed decision. Let’s keep doing this for the greater good of us all.
I recently retired against my will at age 58 from KLM and because I still love to fly am about to join Ryanair, so I really appreciate all the info I read about FR on PPRUNE. Anybody wanting info on KLM just let me know. And for those of you who think I am nuts to join FR, don’t worry I believe I know what I am doing but I guess the prove is in eating the pudding or something like that.



Is 58 the mandatory retirement age at KLM?

[CaptainDutch]

Unfortunately yes it is. However there are some options to extend your career by flying partime. E.g. fly 80% from age 40 and you retire at 62. Other variants are also available. In my time the only option was to fly 80% from age 48 in order to extend your career from 56 (at that time the retirement age) to 58, hence my recent retirement at 58. This young retirement age is a union thing creating a somewhat predictable and steady flow thru to Captain positions for young colleagues. When you are young it’s great, when you are old and have to leave the job and company you love it’s not so great. Many retired KLM pilots continue their career at other airlines all over the world and the sad thing is that KLM had to ground several airplanes this summer due to lack of pilots.

[diple]

Not intended as a leading question: What made Ryanair attractive to you at age 58?
Do you think you might stay until 65 i.e. would Ryanair enjoy less turnover of staff if they start targeting older pilots than burning through newly qualified pilots who might only stay a few years?

[BluSdUp]

Dutch
You love KLM!
You decided to join Ryanair.
Interesting choice!

Regards
Cpt B

[RAT 5]

Captain Dutch: You might believe you know what you are doing, but prepare yourself for the biggest and most severe cultural shock of your life. To relieve that a little you might consider part-time if you can get it. If they insist on a 'contractor BV' set up you should first check with the NL belastingdienst as I hear they have doubts about it if you are Netherlands resident.

[Jack D]

I respect Dutchies desire to continue flying at 58 .. why not he’s still relatively young but he’ll be looking at this from a completely different aspect from most Ryr pilots.

FZ Salary will be a supplement to a well deserved and hopefully decent pension from KLM this puts quite a different perspective on things

[arketip]

Dutch
You love KLM!
You decided to join Ryanair.
Interesting choice!

Regards
Cpt B

Well, if KLM does not allow him to fly anymore...:rolleyes:

[skyflyer737]

Have met plenty of ex-legacy airline Capts at Ryanair and all seem happy enough. BA, KLM, Thomson, Virgin, Emirates to name but a few. It’s not for everyone but it suits a lot of us.

[BirdmanBerry]

What's Ryanair's retirement age?

[nrn]

What's Ryanair's retirement age?

When you die of exhaustion during the summer schedule ;)

think it is 65 now

[CaptainDutch]

@diple, decided on FR because believe it or not right now it is one of the better 73 deals in Europe. Schedule 5/4,pay, easy commute AMS-DUB. I have no idea if I will stay till 65 (which is the legal/FR retirement age), will depend on how much I like it. I believe the only way for FR to retain their pilots is to start treating them better in all aspects. MOl should have a talk with Sir Richard Branson. LCC and good pay/ benefits can go together, see SouthWest.
@BluSdUp, @ Arketip, indeed I had to retire, no choice, game over at KLM, love flying and much to young to only mow the lawn.
@Rat5 thanks for the warning, am aware that it will be way different than KLM, already have saved some empty water bottles and bought powdered coffee for in my flight bag. Will let you know how large the shock was. No BV for me, direct employment contract, will definitely be looking for part-time.
@skyflyer 737 thanks for the encouraging words.
@nrn KLM 73 schedule 28 day cycle 17 work 11 off, FR 28 day cycle 16 work 12 off, I fully realize that I have to commute in those days off, hence the DUB base, 4 FR flights a day AMS-DUB.

[matt283]

When you die of exhaustion during the summer schedule ;)

think it is 65 now

Direct employment: 60

Contractor: 65

[airbusjockey]

what do you think, where we're all flying in the next decade ?

[SID PLATE]

Direct employment: 60

Contractor: 65

After 60, contractors are put on a rolling one year contract until aged 65.
Most try and do this on a shared contract. RYR don't make it easy for them to obtain this though ....

[BluSdUp]

Well what can I say, but welcome to the LOCO show.
Hot water is free and I just realized so is ice cubes, to the great frustration for my cabin crew ( stored in rear galley)
Keep us posted!
And good luck on the part-time, a near extinct animal.
Regards
Cpt B

[beachbumflyer]

I wouldn't work for an airline that doesn't provide me with water and food.

[SID PLATE]

I wouldn't work for an airline that doesn't provide me with water and food.


Looks like you've got about three years to find one before you have to retire. Good Luck.

[beachbumflyer]

I'm already retired and not looking for a job.

[matt283]

Well what can I say, but welcome to the LOCO show.
Hot water is free and I just realized so is ice cubes, to the great frustration for my cabin crew ( stored in rear galley)
Keep us posted!
And good luck on the part-time, a near extinct animal.
Regards
Cpt B

CC are not provided with ice tongs and ice box is stowed almost on the floor level in the aft galley... The rest I leave to your imagination...

[BluSdUp]

Matt
Ah
The Weinstein Flying Club membership book of tricks!
Naw, I have seen a few of my age joined up with the Gold Diggers.
Often gets ugly!

BeachBum
According to my BMI I am not starving. 100k plus gets You a lot of Grub and water.
And You may have had the fortune to not have worked in a company that went bankrupt and then freelance as 9/11 hit
. Any way, the food I can do without, the disrespect I shall get revenge for.