Airline gender pay gap

[Dudley Do Right]

UK companies with 250 or more employees must publish their gender pay gap data by April 2018. Should be interesting.

[Chesty Morgan]

Hardly. Pilots, the majority of which are male, get paid more than cabin crew, the majority of which are female. Shocker.

[tubby linton]

I have been in the industry for thirty years and have never seen a gender pay gap. If you can do the job you get paid the same as your peers.

[Dudley Do Right]

These are the times we are living in;

"EasyJet has set itself a target that a fifth of all new pilots recruited should be female by 2020"

Ridiculous

[captplaystation]

Given the number of female Candidates on the market, they will then leave themselves open to charges of positive discrimination by the male workforce ? ? WTF ? ?.


AFAIK, in every company I have worked in, pilots & CC were of course paid exactly the same regardless of gender . . . a non-starter in aviation methinks. Move along there, nothing to see.

[Banana Joe]

A girl from my ATO received job offers from various operators in Europe and secured a job with a UK charter operator... And she doesn't know the difference between N1 and N2. Not joking.
Same story for another one with various multiple ATPL fails.

[KayPam]

In engineering too, I believe the gender pay gap does not exist.
We have very detailed statistics for Airbus group (several thousands of employees) and when comparing with equal experience and comparable job, the pay gap is less than 3% and can occur in both directions.

Surely, the problem doesn't lie with the employers, the problem lies with society influencing women towards lower paid jobs and influencing men in thinking the larger salary the better.

[glenifer]

I'm not a big fan of positive discrimination. I do think however it could mean those who initially never thought they could make a go of it in the industry are encouraged to enter it. It makes aviation less of an old boy's club in terms of "dad did it so I will too", and it brings fresh blood and ideas into the industry. It would be great to see "pilot" as a more popular career choice for young girls, akin to how it is for boys. You only have to look at some of the Virgin ads to see how girls could be influenced by society.

Obviously the anecdotal reports of sub par candidates getting offers is worrying... That will come back to bite airlines on the bum. However, if it means more girls see the prospect of being a pilot as achievable and aspire to go into the industry it would create more competition and possibility raise standards...

[WhatsaLizad?]

Surely, the problem doesn't lie with the employers, the problem lies with society influencing women towards lower paid jobs and influencing men in thinking the larger salary the better.



Not really. Just like men, I doubt you'll run into many females who don't think a larger salary is better.


Facts are, more women will avoid the physical,technical type jobs in all sorts of weather in extreme environments. There are totally competent women in those fields and they have my respect like any other of any race, gender or cultural background.


Any attempt to pay a female less to do my job will be met by an immediate work stoppage until the money is in their bank account.

[zerotohero]

Female Pilots are paid the same as male.... Male cabin crew are paid the same as Female.

Now..... More Men than Women seem to want jobs on say the north sea oil rigs paying decent $$$ where as more Women than men seem to want to work in a beauty salon where the job pays less.......... What gender pay gap?? Its down to the job you do as far as I can see. All jobs are open to both Genders but a vast majority of jobs only appeal to one gender.

Now I have heard women moan that they fell intimidated applying for a male dominated role..... Well sorry you cant blame Men for genetic makeup.

[Rated De]

The gender pay gap is really code for the next assault on society. There is a small gap, nothing of the magnitude made out by extremities in society. Most of it according to a number of empirical studies is a result of choice.

As pilots say, male pilots don't get paid more than females.


This video is five minutes, but explains the median wage argument and its distortion which is conveniently ignored.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcDrE5YvqTs

:ok:

[drfaust]

I have never worked in a company where females were paid less for the same role and same years of service/experience levels.

If anything women are treated better than men in aviation because it looks good to have them on board. All things being equal, in the western world, they are far more likely to get a flying position than men for this reason.

Women just tend not to choose this profession very often. Easyjet would do well to say that they are looking to hire a representative amount of female pilots after all checks and standards have been met accordingly. To set an “arbitrary” target figure reeks of favoritism. If only 5% of pilots are women, wouldn’t females be way overrepresented if one company consists of 20% women?

I also doubt women would like to be cherry picked for positions because of what is between their legs compared to the standard of job they deliver. As any good pilot and decent human being would.

[Time Traveller]

A girl from my ATO received job offers from various operators in Europe and secured a job with a UK charter operator... And she doesn't know the difference between N1 and N2. Not joking.
Same story for another one with various multiple ATPL fails.

Few could deny that there is strong female positive discrimination in pilot hiring in Europe - and it IS legal, surprisingly. However, is it wise, for safety critical roles?

[Marlon Brando]

the gap is a result of personnal/family choices.

There is no such things as female payscale, it's illegal of course.
I tried to found out how they came with this numbers, because I knew that the hourly rate was the same for men and women, in any jobs.
And I found out that it was a totally dishonest social study, all of them. It's just politics.
The result of the Era we are in, minority sacralisation.

Here is how it is calculated: (exemple from a good friend of mine)
He's a doctor. Family doctor. He work long days and make 10000€/month.
His wife is a teacher. She makes so little money that they decided she will work half time only, then she can take care of the kids.
She makes less than 1000€ a month.

=>Women make ten times less than men

It's real, that's how they do the calculation. Check by yourself.

[Banana Joe]

Few could deny that there is strong female positive discrimination in pilot hiring in Europe - and it IS legal, surprisingly. However, is it wise, for safety critical roles?

We might find out one day.

I know it gives the impression I am a terrible male chauvinist. I am not really, but I am experiencing this positive discrimination in first person. I would have nothing to say if those two female individuals knew something about turbofan engines or swept wings, but they do not and had it quite easy to get invitation to assessments and subsequent job offers.

[captplaystation]

Did you mean "misogynist " perchance ? having said that, any criticism of the female race may end up with you feeling like a bit of a masochist I agree ;)

[Marlon Brando]

i fly corporate bizjet, politicens, ceo, etc...
One funny thing about this gender equity is that those VIPs, who promote equal opportunities in their big companies, usually don't want female pilots to fly their families !

[Banana Joe]

Did you mean "misogynist " perchance ? having said that, any criticism of the female race may end up with you feeling like a bit of a masochist I agree ;)

I exactly meant that, sorry! lol I'll edit that now.

[Skipname]

The gender pay gap is a :mad: myth. I have never worked in a company that has two different pay scales depending on your genitalia. I have never heard any female colleagues or friends complain or even talk about the gender pay gap, so where is all this noise coming from?

Of course there is positive discrimination towards women pilots in Europe. You have to be blind not to see that.

[midnight cruiser]

https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54

Some clarity of thought about misguided objectives to bludgeon flat headline gender percentages, for every field of work, regardless of societal and hardwired human propensities.
(originally posted in the ME forum)

[schweizer2]

Ah well, nothing a bit of positive discrimination can't fix.

Good luck to all you ladies applying, I'm sure you'll feel very proud competing on equal terms.

https://www.pilotcareernews.com/thomas-cook-airlines-launches-new-airline-cadet-programme/

[midnight cruiser]

Also https://careers.easyjet.com/pilots/female-pilot-opportunities/
"Requirements of the role" - No penis

[Skipname]

I was under the impression that gender discrimination is illegal in Europe, or that doesn't apply if the beneficiaries of such practices have a v****a between their legs?

[Trossie]

In order to 'equalise' pay, are there any sponsorships aimed at recruiting more men as cabin crew? ... No, I thought not.

Surely there should be valid equality legal challenges against men being excluded from these airline sponsorships solely on the basis of gender?

[Heathrow09L]

I wonder what the reaction would be if it says “Male Pilots only”. There would be uproar, surely this cannot be legal?

[FlipFlapFlop]

Hmm. Positive discrimination is encouraged in the UK to address historical or cultural imbalance. The issue with women as pilots is far more to do with the cost of training and the bank of mummy and daddy not being opened so readily for Prudence. Pay and opportunities on applying and throughout their career in aviation, in the UK at least, are the same. Indeed, opportunities maybe in favour of women. Gender pay gaps are measured against jobs of similar importance/difficulty and not across a corporate structure. BA or Easy are not required to measure a gender pay gap between pilots and cabin crew but independently. So there is no gender pay gap so these companies do not need to worry.
What is likely to be of more interest after we get over the current bubble of misogynist hunting is the number of black pilots against the population average.

[Northern Highflyer]

I would say ageism is a bigger problem than sexism in the aviation industry. It's well known that airlines favour the younger candidates for low hour positions. A newly qualified pilot the wrong side of 40 struggles much more to get a foot in the door. I therefore look forward to the launch of a sponsorship scheme for older pilots in order to redress the balance and to promote age equality.....but I won't hold my breath.

[Trossie]

I couldn't care what 'group' any pilot belongs to, can they fly??!! The rest is just waffle. Do the same percentage of these 'other groups' really want to be pilots? That is a far, far more fundamental matter than trying to tinker around with blatantly discriminatory 'engineering' of the system.

[FlipFlapFlop]

I couldn't care what 'group' any pilot belongs to, can they fly??!! The rest is just waffle. Do the same percentage of these 'other groups' really want to be pilots? That is a far, far more fundamental matter than trying to tinker around with blatantly discriminatory 'engineering' of the system.

Whilst I have a natural dislike of positive discrimination I would ask why you would think that black children would not dream of being an airline pilot ? And if they do, what stops them from fulfilling their dream ? Then, when you know the answers to these questions you have to decide whether it is right or wrong to tinker with the system.

[Chesty Morgan]

Gender pay gaps are measured against jobs of similar importance/difficulty and not across a corporate structure.


The gender pay gap is defined as the difference in median pay between men and women. The Office for National Statistics headline measure for the gender pay gap is calculated as the difference between median gross hourly earnings (excluding overtime) as a proportion of median gross hourly earnings (excluding overtime) for men. But crucially this measure does not take into account equal pay for equal work.

No mention of “jobs of similar importance”. Nor is there on gov.uk.

[clvf88]

I'll just leave this here ...

FTEJerez & Thomas Cook Airlines announce new Airline Cadet programme and Scholarship for Female Pilots ? FTEJerez | News (http://ftejerez.com/news/ftejerez-thomas-cook-airlines-announce-new-airline-cadet-programme-and-scholarship-for-female-pilots/)

[Skipname]

Whilst I have a natural dislike of positive discrimination I would ask why you would think that black children would not dream of being an airline pilot ? And if they do, what stops them from fulfilling their dream ? Then, when you know the answers to these questions you have to decide whether it is right or wrong to tinker with the system.

I am sure lots of black children dream to be an airline pilot. I think the show stopper for most of them is the big cost of getting the qualification required for the job.

The same cost applies to everyone else, no matter what skin colour, religion, gender etc.... they are.

Why should there be schemes that benefit only certain skin colour or gender when everyone in Europe has the same access to gain the qualification if they can pay for it?

[ZeBedie]

I agree with the gist of everything above, but look at the airline gender pay gap (mainly male pilots vs. mainly female cabin crew) in light of the Tesco case.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/02/07/tesco-facing-record-4bn-equal-pay-claim-hiding-plain-sight-years/

Equality of opportunity seems right and just, but it seems equality of outcome is the new goal.

Injust? Crazy? World gone mad?

[Trossie]

FlipFlapFlop, I had a very interesting chat with someone who grew up on a council housing estate due to his parents having fallen on hard times. He had exactly the same money, etc., in the family as all the surrounding families. However he had something that he clearly saw that the other kids lacked: ambition. His parents had the same 'financial' wealth as the surrounding parents but they encouraged curiosity and ambition, something that was lacking in the surrounding parents. He was telling me this in connection with the push at the time to get an equal percentage of children from 'deprived' backgrounds to university as those from 'advantaged' backgrounds. And he said it simply wasn't going to happen because those kids just didn't have the ambition. (He doesn't have any academic qualifications himself, but holds a high position as an airline pilot.) So don't look at any group and see the problems there, look at the curiosity and ambition promoted by the parents; that is worth more than money. (And by the way, in our family the women have higher academic qualifications than the men!) And then look at the kids themselves: I would say that in many cases, choosing not to become an airline pilot probably shows a level of intelligent perception. Forced social engineering with 'positive discrimination' (an oxymoron if ever there was one!) is bad. Encouragement and open ambition is good.

I would like to see men initiate a legal challenge against gender discrimination in the sponsorship mentioned above.

[Trossie]

...

Injust? Crazy? World gone mad?Yes!!! :ok:

[FlipFlapFlop]

The Equality Act 2010 gives women (and men) a right to equal pay for equal work.

The roles of flight crew and cabin crew are completely different. They are not compared to each other and are not lumped together to calculate a gender pay gap. The Act requires all companies over 250 employees to publish data. In the case of airlines they will be required to show if there is a gap for pilots and cabin crew separately from each other. It is not a single figure per employer.


I was not supporting positive discrimination. I thought I had made that clear. But there is something wrong when huge parts of the population are debarred from a career because of the cost of entry.

[Chesty Morgan]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gender-pay-gap-reporting-make-your-calculations

Not according to government guidelines on calculating the gap. No mention whatsoever of differing jobs.

Hourly pay figures you must calculate
You must calculate your organisation’s gender pay gap in hourly pay, as both a:

mean figure (the difference between the average of men’s and women’s pay)
median figure (the difference between the midpoints in the ranges of men’s and women’s pay)

[FlipFlapFlop]

I stand corrected. Workforce Gender Pay Gap calculation. Different from equal pay. What a piece of meaningless bureaucratic bollox. Apologies.

[Training Risky]

I think the rot set in with positive discrimination when Jessica Starmer decided the rules around junior pilot proficiency didn't apply to her just because she was a woman.:mad:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2007/mar/10/britishairways.workandcareers

[vascodegama]

Positive discrimination is illegal in the EU, positive action is not. The problem companies appear to have is telling the difference. So encouraging certain under representated groups to apply is fine but preventing others from applying as a way of achieving the same thing is a no-no. My local police force fell foul of that one!

[RAT 5]

I do know of one CEO whose personal opinion was against female recruits of certain ages. This was many years ago, and after the EU had introduced very generous maternity leave allowances. There were many more applicants than vacancies, so he could hide his feelings. To him it was quite simple, and this was before all the cadet & P2F stuff: you hire a mid-late 20's experienced female and within a couple of years she's on the baby train. The amount of time off required, on full pay, caused rostering problems and unwanted headaches. (no pun). Once that was over, a few months later it repeated itself. Put 6-10 of these in the mix and it was something he wanted to avoid.
Now, up steps an experienced captain, or one ready for command, late 30 early 40 lady with kids already in tow, and no problem. In she came.

One can understand his pure business thinking. To him was sad but true.

[Trossie]

Positive discrimination is illegal in the EU, positive action is not.But to take 'positive action' you need to discriminate against those who don't fit into the group that are benefiting from that 'positive action'.

[vascodegama]

But to take 'positive action' you need to discriminate against those who don't fit into the group that are benefiting from that 'positive action'.

That is exactly the mistake my local police force made-they tried to exclude white males from a recruiting drive. In doing so they fell foul of the legislation.

[vascodegama]

The BBC seem to get away with it, they have adverts which clearly say White people may not apply.:ugh:

Ultimately of course only a court could rule on this-I haven’t seen said adverts but did anyone challenge them? Certainly my local police force ended up in the dock so to speak.

[iggy]

...knowing their safety is in the hands of people who may have had an easier ride to get to the hot-seat...

If pax don't care about PTF I fail to see why they would care in such case.

[Trossie]

iggy is totally correct. Pax care nowt about who's 'up front' as long as the flight is cheap.

But it is the other person in those front two seats who might be wondering if the other person next to them got that position due to competence or to fill a 'quota' for publicity purposes?

[Future Rodney King]

The ultimate arbiter of whether this "affirmative action" is wise, is the frisson of unease an informed passenger may now feel when they hear on the PA that they have an all female flight crew, knowing their safety is in the hands of people who may have had an easier ride to get to the hot-seat, compared to male equivalents - which in the end is doing a huge disservice to the 99% of the minorities it is supposed to help.

However most pax are less than informed; "tell the captain there is fuel dripping from underneath the plane", views condensation, drip drip drip; "the engines are making a clanking sound" hears sound of fan turning in the wind. Travelling as pax I am more than informed and never feel a 'frisson of unease' when welcomed on board by a female voice. Everyone has heard the oafish quips directed at female pilots, not cool and played out years ago. Flown with plenty of females in both seats and can honestly say the majority were as good if not better than their downtrodden white male counterparts, respect. I find that the girls are far more determined to make a successful contribution to the profession than the (sometimes mostly) privileged little boys who's mummies and daddies have remortgaged their house for/given bundles of cash to after 3 years wasted at uni to go and fly big shiny jets. Even today little girls are made to feel that such a profession is not for them, its a boys job. So I fully welcome the 'positive discrimination' as some of you put it (even though it isn't)! More females should be encouraged to fly our aircraft, so what if companies want to promote that idea?

[Heathrow09L]

For goodness sake, every application I have seen by airlines have been available and open to applicants who meet the requirements at that time, in no way has it ever said “Females cannot apply”.

Male and female have all been eligible, so I really don’t see the song and dance about women, they are not hard done by, they can apply just like everyone else, nobody is more special than the other.

[schweizer2]

However most pax are less than informed; "tell the captain there is fuel dripping from underneath the plane", views condensation, drip drip drip; "the engines are making a clanking sound" hears sound of fan turning in the wind. Travelling as pax I am more than informed and never feel a 'frisson of unease' when welcomed on board by a female voice. Everyone has heard the oafish quips directed at female pilots, not cool and played out years ago. Flown with plenty of females in both seats and can honestly say the majority were as good if not better than their downtrodden white male counterparts, respect. I find that the girls are far more determined to make a successful contribution to the profession than the (sometimes mostly) privileged little boys who's mummies and daddies have remortgaged their house for/given bundles of cash to after 3 years wasted at uni to go and fly big shiny jets. Even today little girls are made to feel that such a profession is not for them, its a boys job. So I fully welcome the 'positive discrimination' as some of you put it (even though it isn't)! More females should be encouraged to fly our aircraft, so what if companies want to promote that idea?


So you implying that only little boys will have mummies and daddies who remortgage a house for training? Is this why giving 30,000 euro to a female is acceptable and not to a male?

I for one worked my little boys bum off to get to where I am, god how I would have loved to be handed 30 grand for training!

You must have a very strange definition of discrimination if you don't think this is it.

[Trossie]

For goodness sake, every application I have seen by airlines have been available and open to applicants who meet the requirements at that time, in no way has it ever said “Females cannot apply”.

Male and female have all been eligible, so I really don’t see the song and dance about women, they are not hard done by, they can apply just like everyone else, nobody is more special than the other.
This oneThe scholarship is open for female applicants to be trained at FTEJerez as part of the Thomas Cook Airlines Mentored Cadet Pilot Training Programme. Each year for the next five years, one scholarship of 30,000 euros will be awarded to a successful applicant to be applied towards her training costs at FTEJerez.... quite clearly implies that "Males cannot apply"!


Any influence in this field should be by parents encouraging their offspring of both genders that they should aim for what they want. From then on they are on equal footing and that is genuine 'gender equality'. Airlines do not limit pilot recruiting to one gender. If there are less woman pilots then it must be a sign that less women want to be pilots. No 'social tinkering' can alter that. But now in the name of some bollocks 'political correctness' you are getting airlines handing out a 30.000 euro 'bung' to a woman solely because she is a woman.

[Start Fore]

The world has gone bananas. Thanks lefties.

[Rated De]

The repetition of a statement which is patently untrue is propaganda.

'Gender pay gap' is simply the median wage of men in full time work, compared to median wage of women in full time work. There is a gap, but why it exists is never discussed.

What it hides is that:



What people do for a job
The concentration in particular industries of a particular gender
Education levels and field of study.

Thus it is disingenuous that all they mention is the 'gap' as it suits a particular agenda.


Is it not surprising that some industries are dominated by one gender? If that work is highly skilled, specialist and even sometimes risky, does that usually attract remuneration differences?
Think of drilling on an oil rig or child care. Would there be a difference is gender presence and remuneration?


This is conveniently ignored.

[Training Risky]

... Even today little girls are made to feel that such a profession is not for them, its a boys job....

You are quite obviously talking hoop. EVERY advert for EVERY job in the UK, whether on the tube, the TV or on billboards has a picture of a smiling strong confident woman, sometimes an ethnic woman, sometimes also with an ethnic man in tow.

Girls are constantly told by teachers that there is nothing they can't do. My sons' headmaster recently appointed TWO head girls for the academic year and quite brazenly told the parents he couldn't find a suitable Year 13 boy so didn't see why he should appoint a head boy. (Try doing the same with two head boys and see how long you last in post...!)

[olster]

It’s amazing how one can spout sexist and racist drivel and it remains uncensored as long as it attacks white males. Pathetic beyond belief. The many females that I have flown with have neither been better or worse than their male counterparts. Also the colour of their skin is completely irrelevant. The majority of pilots regardless of dna have worked hard to achieve their seat at the sharp end. I could not care less except that they do their job proficiently. And I don’t think that my views are unusual. I am sick and tired of this irresponsible pc bollox.

[Rated De]

The question many young pilots of a certain gender (pick one) are considering is, having obtained a Commercial Licence do I:



Tackle an Instrument Rating
Tackle an Instructor's Rating
Gender reassign, after all apparently is fluid now!



A tricky proposition where choices costing dollars and progression are concerned

[Trossie]

Think of drilling on an oil rig or child care. Would there be a difference is gender presence and remuneration?
Would there be a difference in life-style, especially home life? Why, oh why, is that always ignored and money, money, money put at the fore in any comparisons? Maybe women are often brighter in choosing careers/jobs that give them a better lifestyle and that just happens to be at the expense of pay. But everybody only fixates on pay. If less women are airline pilots them maybe the cr@p lifestyle has more influence on their choices than anything else?

[Rated De]

If less women are airline pilots them maybe the cr@p lifestyle has more influence on their choices than anything else?

Exactly.

Ignoring the element of choice is what the system intends. Money does one little good when in the graveyard. Money was compensation for risk and loss (be it mining risk or being away from kin)
Supply of pilots was a function of demography; more supply than demand and down went terms and conditions.

Adversarial IR/HR models are all predicated on endless supply, which no longer holds.

Many have worked out the job offers little 'compensation' for the loss and perhaps one gender worked that out a lot earlier than the other!

[Stocious]

Interestingly BA have just published their gender pay gap stats. Apparently 10% male favoured overall, but if you take the pilots out of the equation (94% male) then the pay difference favours women by 1%.

[Krautwald]

I get that girls are less encouraged in daily life (not media campaigns), but on the other hand IF they make it to flight training and manage to be not catastrophic, the deal is almost set. Just my impression. Very high reward for those who show up.

I go modular, see different ATOs, instructors, career advisors and sometimes airline pilots. Females seem to struggle with similar things than men but one thing very rarely: permanent unemployment.

Men have to make the top whatever percentage applicable to the number of positions hired for. Women have to pass the standard requirements and are very close already.

I will take corrections from more experienced contributers, especially airline insiders, but my impression is that regardless of a womans age, background, ATO or what have you: once licensed and up to basic standard, women have to try hard to get it wrong.

[JPFTEJerez]

It’s time companies stop amounting to pressure from the growing number of Social Justice Warriors we are seeing in society these days.

The route to the the right hand seat of an airline has nothing to do with your gender. Aptitude is genderless, EASA exams are genderless and flying is, you guessed it, genderless. There is simply no barrier for woman getting into the industry. In fact, right now you’re at a huge advantage if you are a female.

Airlines offering sponsored or subsidised training for females because there’s not as many in the industry is ridiculous, and not to mention, sexist. It’s not positive discrimination; it’s just discrimination. The fact of the matter is that there’s not as many woman interested in aviation. So why are we punishing the males?

As for the “gender pay gap.” Any economist worth their salt will tell you that it is a myth. It does not exist. It’s illegal to pay woman less, otherwise every company would only employ woman. The pay gap is taken from a comparison across all jobs in society and so does not represent a job for job “pay gap.” It’s about time these people got over themselves and started promoting real equality instead of superiority.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

I have seen both sides of this. In a previous life I was a turboprop captain and worked for a small outfit where no women were employed. One of the most embarrassing (and a conversation I now feel ashamed even having had) was with a very competent lady pilot who I knew wanted to work there. I had to tell her that we did not take female pilots, which everyone knew to be true. It was just a fact of the guy who ran the airline and is completely indefensible, but that is how it was. I now work for easyJet and we are actively seeking applications from lady pilots. The harsh reality is that the sheer numbers of women pilots easyJet want do not really exist for a whole variety of cultural reasons, that we could debate endlessly. The same argument could be made for black male pilots from West Indian backgrounds. They simply do not exist in any numbers to employ in the first place - again for a whole variety of cultural reasons that are way outside of easyJet's control. The arguments are very difficult - should we employ men and women on an equal basis regarding ability or should we weight the dice in favour of women to correct a clear imbalance? There is no easy answer to this and easyJet will face this very problem. If we take women who are manifestly not as good as their male peers, that is there for the world to see and we are opening the door to big trouble. Do we, however, continue the practice of keeping this a male-dominated profession? I think not. I should also point out that our female captains are often incredibly talented and capable pilots who are a pleasure to observe in action. They just do not exist in the same numbers as their male colleagues, and that is a very hard problem to solve.

We at easyJet have virtually no female Training Captains (we do have a tiny number and are trying to increase it). Why is this? It is certainly not a deliberate policy, but more due to a host of practical problems faced by ladies at key stages in their lives. It is really to do with the fact that at the critical stages of selection for these types of jobs, ladies are typically married and having children. They are often part-time and pre-occupied with being mothers. To get through the Training Captain courses requires massive emotional effort and at critical times many women are simply not able to provide the continued effort required to get through. Often their husbands/partners are in big careers themselves and cannot provide the background support many wives do to husbands going through these courses themselves with young children. I used to have no sympathy for this, but have actually completely transformed my view. Forget company success and 'efficiency' for a moment. We as a society need to have professional women who form part of the breeding population, given that men cannot do so. To that end, we must remove invisible glass ceilings that effectively prevent advancement by skilled women. At easyJet I believe we are genuinely trying to do this, but the practicalities are enormous in doing so. I am not a manager, but merely a casual observer seeing how difficult it is practically-speaking for even the most talented married women with children to succeed at being a Training Captain. I am now of the view that we have to provide a level of support to women that most men do not require, simply because it is the women who have the lion's share of the work in bringing up children. We need to radically change our practices of the past and make it work for these talented ladies to advance up the system. Just my own opinion - and very different from how I used to feel. Others may disagree.

[FightFireWithFire]

Do we, however, continue the practice of keeping this a male-dominated profession?

Maybe I'm missing something from your comment,but I can't really see the problem with that.
This job naturally attracts more men than women just like nursing attracts more women than men,and is therefore normal that is a male dominated profession.
A woman who wishes to become a pilot can go to a flight school,get her license and if she's good enough she will get her job,just like any man does.
Basically I don't see any reason why we should forced them to become pilots when the doors are already open (a bit too much nowadays in my opinion)and they clearly tend to chose other career paths.

[Deltasierra010]

Men are much more likely to go for the high paycheck, not many women do, work life balance is much more important, plus they feel much more secure at home each night.
Does it matter to passengers if a woman is flying?. In most cases they don't know unless the cockpit door is open boarding. However over the years I have flown as a passenger a great many times and I have NEVER heard a female pilot address passengers ???.

[Club World]

Respectfully not hearing a female flight crew make a PA doesn’t mean one isn’t present, it may happen that she could be onboard and is conducting line training and giving the other person the task of running each sector(s) and hence a PA by a male colleague.

Either way regardless of more or less women is NOT acceptable to discriminate against one gender in favour of the other.

[JammedStab]

This supposed bias for males making more for a similar but not same job is B.S. If you look at the exact same job in the airlines, the pay is the same.

If the feminazis are so concerned about inequity of pay, then look at porn industry, the women make way more than men. Proof of discrimination in society and I want extra hiring benefits throughout the economy because of it.

[4468]

From another place:
I can drive a car. Why aren’t I paid the same as Lewis Hamilton?

[framer]

Men are much more likely to go for the high paycheck
Society, in general, judges men by how well they provide for their family. Now days that means ‘what does he do for a living?’. It is for many men a defining element of their identity, critical to how they feel about themselves and to how they are received by others.
Men in low paid work are treated very differently while out and about in society than men in well paid jobs. (If you don’t believe me swap out your XF Jag and chinos for a 1993 Corolla and some beach shorts and go about your day.)
Women are usually judged with less emphasise on pay cheque, with personality, looks and family situation carrying more weight than with men.
What does that mean? Men, in general, are more concerned about what a job will pay than women and will quickly dismiss low paid opportunities regardless of how much they would enjoy the work, and will do decades of hard yards to secure higher paid jobs at the expense of health, lifestyle, and family harmony.
I know there are many thousands of exceptions ( on both sides) to the generalisation I’ve written above, but if a quantitative assessment was actually possible, it would favour my ramblings. ( Either that or people just didn’t like my Corolla when I was in between jobs).

[Dudley Do Right]

And the winner is;

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-ryanair-pay-gender/ryanairs-67-percent-uk-gender-pay-gap-widest-among-airlines-idUKKCN1HA1LY

[framer]

67% gender pay gap for Ryan Air is certainly large. I propose an easy fix, if they simply paid all cabin crew First Officer salaries, and all Pursers Captain salaries,the gap would be close to zero. Job done, politicians satisfied.

[VJW]

I'd be interested to know the % of female pilots who obtain a job within the first 12 months of completing their fATPL training compared to their male counterparts. I suspect there aren't too many unemployed female pilots looking for work.

I haven't read the previous 4 pages, but everyone seems to be saying the same kind of thing.

If I was a politician I'd be wondering if Manchester City FC pay their female playing staff the same as they pay their male....this is a pretty humungous gender pay gap considering their job title and role within the organisation is exactly the same...

[Piltdown Man]

According to the BBC, the gender pay gap at Ryanair Ltd:

The average woman at this company is paid 71.8% less than the average man. That's a higher pay gap than the national average which is 18.4%. Women make up 3% of higher-paid jobs and 57% of lower-paid jobs.

I’m not sure which shocks me the most. Is it the fact that the person constructing the survey chose not to compare pay by function or the fact that government policy may be changed as a direct result of this survey. I’m not normally one to defend Ryanair but to the best of my knowledge, they pay by function not according to the tackle between your legs. Furthermore, there are no gender barriers preventing entry into any Ryanair job.

The problem, if there is one, is that girls (of both sexes) decide not to choose to fly aircraft and boys (of both sexes) do not apply to become cabin crew. Whose fault is this? It is certainly not Ryanair’s. They pay the same no matter what your gender. If this is a problem that needs fixing, the solution will not be found with government action based of this survey. In my opinion, the best thing that can happen as a result of this survey is that anyone who believes it has a value should be drowned in public to serve as a discouragement for any other idiot who wishes to waste public time and money.

PM

[Deltasierra010]

Respectfully not hearing a female flight crew make a PA doesn’t mean one isn’t present, it may happen that she could be onboard and is conducting line training and giving the other person the task of running each sector(s) and hence a PA by a male colleague.

Either way regardless of more or less women is NOT acceptable to discriminate against one gender in favour of the other.

My observation was questioning Joe Publics prejudices against women pilots, are passengers more reassured hearing a male voice?. My own experience is that women are more careful pilots and less likely to take risks or cut margins

[OutsideCAS]

The Reuters news article states that "Ryanair, Europe's largest low-cost carrier, said only eight out of its 554 pilots based in the United Kingdom are women".


Safe to assume that these eight in question are also on direct RYR contracts?


Or are they perhaps working as contractors?


And if the later, then how did they become included in the required disclosure?.


Just want to see if we are comparing equally employed individuals?.

[HLYtaste]

In spain here we have the same Bull**** propaganda about the gender gap with the same bull**** arguments comparing Jobs between themselves that have nothing to do.
With that in mind i just have to think this is all a colective effort of some kind that is trying to drive europe in a communist direction.

SJw´s and that crap need to get banned and muffled, to this arguments i always answer with a:
" i would never ask for a Male CC to earn the same wage as a female pilot or for a male nurse to earn the same as a female doctor"


And i receive this with either yelling and insults or crickets.

[BARKINGMAD]

Is not the current preoccupation by Blessed Terrie Maybot, the British Prime Minister, rather off-target in highlighting the perceived gender gap in pay?

It looks good for a Conservative PM to be appearing to take a positive measure on the social justice front, as promised on the steps of number 10.

However, what has happened to the yawning chasm between the dosh shovelled into the trousers of (both genders) senior management and CEOs, amounting to multiples of hundreds of times the average worker-bees' remuneration?

Yes, it's got and is getting wider and the same group of overpaid wallahs get a nice payoff/pension pot/shares even when their incompetence results in the collapse of their company!

As the HR departments of all >250 employee companies slave away to provide this gender data, the real targets are escaping the spotlight which should be shone on their immoral practices. :ugh:

[ZeBedie]

So dopy Theresa wants to do something about the gender pay gap? But she hasn't said what she wants to do. What can she do? So much legislation suffers from unintended consequences, but can you immagine where this could lead? I can: Ryanair pilots will reassign themselves a female gender - apparently, you can do that, in this bull**** PC world. Huge strapping blokes in manual jobs will see they lift and carry no more than their weakest female colleague. Men will refuse dirty and dangerous jobs unless there are 50% female colleagues. Mostly male hospital porters will demand to be paid as much as mostly female nurses. The potential chaos is endless.

But again - what exactly does the PM intend to actually do? Maybe she should worry about the gap between her ears instead?

[framer]

Women make different decisions to men, that’s why it has been eight years between mass shootings in the USA by women and why less women than men work on oil rigs.

[flightbooking]

My airline published a new salary scheme for pilots recently. There are several categories and brackets but not surprisingly there's no separate category exist for female flight crew.
Gender pay gap is a myth spreaded by SJWs.

[rudestuff]

Publishing gender pay figures for each job type is perfectly reasonable. Comparing a company as a whole is not.

Let's say you have 10 pilots (9 men, 1 woman) - each on £60k. You also have 10 cabin crew (9 women, 1 man) each on £20k.

There is Zero gender pay gap between pilots. There is zero pay gap between cabin crew. But magically the 10 men average £56k and the 10 women average £24k. Not because there exists a gender pay gap, buy because the men generally chose a career that pays more. Hardly the companies fault!

[763 jock]

In 2016 there were 20007 EASA licences issued by the CAA in circulation. Only 1013 of these were held by women. The whole industry needs to change if we are going to attract more females into the profession.

[JaxofMarlow]

As long as it does not change to the detriment of male candidates. There are no barriers to entry for women, indeed the opposite is becoming more prevalent. I would suggest the gap in numbers is down to lack of desire and lack of support for girls from the bank of mum and dad.

[wiggy]

Lots of :ok: :ok: :ok: to jax’s above thoughts.

1. Airlines will happily hold down/cap T&Cs on elements of the workforce if they can get away with it......

2. If the ratio of male to female applicants at the entry level is as skewed as is often reported then I do suspect the bank of Mum and Dad, influence of Mum, Dad and peer group etc will have a lot to do with this..and FWIW there are plenty of males who can’t afford the “L3” route so I’m wary of female only financial incentives....

And no, I don’t have an answer.

[Deltasierra010]

Lots of :ok: :ok: :ok: to jax’s above thoughts.

1. Airlines will happily hold down/cap T&Cs on elements of the workforce if they can get away with it......

2. If the ratio of male to female applicants at the entry level is as skewed as is often reported then I do suspect the bank of Mum and Dad, influence of Mum, Dad and peer group etc will have a lot to do with this..and FWIW there are plenty of males who can’t afford the “L3” route so I’m wary of female only financial incentives....

And no, I don’t have an answer.

As President of the Bank of Mum and Dad I would never pay for or even encourage either a son or daughter to fly, if they want to fly they can spend their weekly allowance and anything else they can earn themselves, realistically that will mean the local gliding club or air cadets. If they decide that's what they want I will help them through University, after that it's up to them, one of my nephews is on the ladder now, at 30 he is flying in Maun, it has been tough but he will get there.
Plenty of men are willing to commit to that hard grind to realize their ambition, my impression is that young women, seeing the hardship that is going to involve, wisely choose an easier career. So unless they show exceptional talent and are recruited for pilot training by the RAF or some other organization they will get a " proper job".

[JammedStab]

If you compare specific job for specific job, the pay will almost always be the same. For those who would like to know the truth about the differences in negotiated pay for the same job......watch this video of a recent very famous interview on the subject(where the interviewer with a specific agenda attempts to mis-quote and mislead the interviewee who sets the record straight). While I suggest starting from the beginning, you can get directly to the specifics of this topic at 4:50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

[simmple]

In my outfit male, female, gender neutral or whatever pc crap they want to identify themselves as get paid the same salary.
But
The males actually earn less per hour/ day/ year as they can’t get time off with full pay for pregnancy

[4468]

The males actually earn less per hour/ day/ year as they can’t get time off with full pay for pregnancy
That’s actually a very good point!

I believe the GPG figures are based on hourly rate? How is the hourly rate for maternity pay accounted for in this formula? Does anyone actually know? Is it detailed anywhere?

If the individuals are absent from work, then whatever they are paid, that’s a pretty good rate, isn’t it?

Edited to add:

Found the answer:

The Equality Act 2010 (Gender Pay Gap Information) Regulations 2017 (SI 2017/172) provide that employees should not be included in the employer's gender pay gap calculation if, during the relevant pay reference period, they are being paid at a reduced rate, or nil, as a result of being on leave. This includes employees on maternity, paternity, adoption, parental or shared parental leave. Therefore, employees on maternity leave, or other family leave, should be included only if they are in receipt of full pay during the pay reference period on which the employer's calculation is based.

I imagine including employees paid for not coming in to work, might affect the figures?

[Direct Bondi]

Some people are also raising a voice to remove the noticeable bulge in the pay gap of the transgendered - Link:

O'Hare-based airline captain arrested in Colorado castration case | abc7chicago.com (http://abc7chicago.com/news/ohare-based-airline-captain-arrested-in-colorado-castration-case/2018015/)

[Training Risky]

In 2016 there were 20007 EASA licences issued by the CAA in circulation. Only 1013 of these were held by women. The whole industry needs to change if we are going to attract more females into the profession.

Why should the industry have to change?

If it is safe and pilots of both genders make equal pay, then what's the problem? You can't make girls and women choose aviation over their traditional softer careers!

[metocman]

I think the rot set in with positive discrimination when Jessica Starmer decided the rules around junior pilot proficiency didn't apply to her just because she was a woman.:mad:

Back in the late 90's and early 2000's I was heavily involved in the military Interservices Gliding competitions which civilians were allowed to also compete in. Back then she was Jessica Pennant and was very well regarded in gliding circles(no pun intended) She would frequently beat the pants of professional military pilots and was pretty much always in the top 3 every day. She would train out of RAF Bicester while at Oxford University on the BA pilots bursary program so was obviously very clever and had what seemed to the rest of us a dream career ahead of her.

Does anyone know if she returned to working for BA after taking them to court to get her way?

[flyingmed]

The airline I work for potentially pays women more. One of the agreements we have is paid maternity leave which is only available to our female colleagues. So in a any year our female colleagues would not necessarily receive more pay but rather the same pay for less hours at work. The only equivalent leave which is available to the men is unpaid.

[Rated De]

As long as it does not change to the detriment of male candidates. There are no barriers to entry for women, indeed the opposite is becoming more prevalent. I would suggest the gap in numbers is down to lack of desire and lack of support for girls from the bank of mum and dad.


The airline I work for potentially pays women more. One of the agreements we have is paid maternity leave which is only available to our female colleagues. So in a any year our female colleagues would not necessarily receive more pay but rather the same pay for less hours at work. The only equivalent leave which is available to the men is unpaid.

Of course they prefer that facts don't get in the way of myth.
As the USA found, the BLS study into 'pay inequality' found that there was a small gap.....Ironically it came down to choice; women chose less well remunerated professions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcDrE5YvqTs