Autopilot in IMC

[GRP]

I do very little IMC flight limiting it pretty much to the odd climb and descent to let me fly on top if conditions are favourable to that. I certainly don't go off with any intention of flying for long periods in the soup, or requiring an instrument procedure to land. I do go off and practice this stuff from time to time with an instructor to make sure I know what I'm doing, but the reality is that where possible I prefer to fly with a view out of the front window.

I'm in two minds however as to whether I should stick the aircraft on autopilot (I've only got a roll axis autopilot) on those occasions where I am going to go into cloud.

On the one hand, if you always stick on the autopilot it does make life a lot easier and mindful of the fact that killer number one seems to be loss of control in IMC, having the autopilot keep things straight is an attractive option. On the other hand.... if you don't fly it by hand from time to time then your proficiency should you need it sometime will inevitably suffer.

It seems in some way to come down to the question of whether you prefer to take the risk that your competence will let you down in IMC or whether you take the risk that the autopilot is going to let you down in IMC.

What do others think and do? I've not bothered with the autopilot up to now because I have been taking the view that I ought to use every moment when the view disappears to practice a bit more, but I'm slowly coming to the view that I should make more use of the autopilot when in real IMC and simply do more simulated practice with an instructor to keep proficient.

[Final 3 Greens]

GRP

I don't fly IMC, but I have used autopilots to quite an extent in VMC.

My first comment would be that they work fine, when they are working fine ... but sometimes need a little adjustment. One Cherokee used to fly a huge lazy orbit on HDG! This is okay in VMC, where you can see what is happening and correct, but what about IMC??

Also, you are going to have to adjust pitch and power manually.

The other issue is to consider how your autopilot works. Is it simply adding aileron in response to deviation from a HDG or NAV instrument. Do you know what would happen if you encounter turbulence? Would an oscillation develop that could cause secondary effects and threaten loss of control?

I don't know the ansawer to the second point, but I would suggest that anyone using an autopilot in IMC should be very much on top of hand flying/scanning.

Perhaps this is one to discuss with an instructor?

[khorne]

Flying in IMC can be very high workload. An autopilot reduces that workload consierably. If you think there is something wrong with it then get rid of it otherwise allow it to free up brain capacity that you can use for other tasks.

The previous post suggested asking an instructor. If you can find one that flys regularly in IMC on an autopilot then good luck to you. There are plenty of exceptions but the majority of instructors fly VFR in C152 type aircraft in their local area and can add very little to this kind of query.

[englishal]

There was an interesting article in the AOPA mag about autopilots in IMC and autopilot coupled approaches. The conclusion was that why not fly in IMC and shoot apporaches using the AP, but when using the AP, great care should be taken to monitor what is going on. Especially during the approach, the AP should be followed through and the pilot should be prepared for a disconnect at any time.

I've flown AP coupled approaches, and so long as the AP is working correctly, they're brilliant. (I reckon the one I was using would actually land the aircraft, follow the ILS in, then pull the throttle over the threshold and there you go autoland......not that I tried it of course ;) ) GPS coupled AP approaches are the way forward.

Cheers
EA :)

[alphaalpha]

Autopilots in IMC?? My thoughts are:

First of all, know the performance of your autopilot and check it out on the ground.

Second, if flying only occasionally in IMC, use the autopilot as an 'emergency' back up to hand flying. This keeps your IMC up to scratch and currency is vital. Have the heading bug pre-set on your chosen heading, so if you have any sort of problem, you only have to engage the a/p in bug mode. Then if you need to turn, move the bug 20 degrees at a time and monitor all the usual instruments for problems. You could also do this in an emergency to fly an SRA or QGH approach, if you were not current and (oh dear!) caught in IMC. However, it really is only a 'get out of jail card.'

Third, if you are current in IMC flying, do use the autopilot. It helps enormously when you have to review charts/plates etc or consider a diversion, or even just note ATC instructions. Its a vital tool for IFR regulars in my opinion and leaves some brain free for situational awareness.

Fourth, I have an STech 20 autopilot (no altitude capture/hold). I am not personally familiar with three-axis types, but there have been a couple of fatal accidents in recent years, where the autopilot is believed to a have flown the a/c very out of trim. On disconnect, the forces required to maintain controlled flight are extreme and would be unexpected, so very, very dangerous. I would therefore be interested how regular IFR pilots with (single) 3-axis autopilots monitor that all is well. And then there is ice.....

Regards

[eyeinthesky]

I don't really see a problem with using the autopliot for the reasons already given (reduction in workload), provided you keep the scan going to monitor any deviations.

Most important, however, is making yourself THOROUGHLY familiar with its operation whilst still in VMC. You need to establish whether it wanders (many do in NAV mode and HDG is a better option) or whatever and what is the best way to engage it (establish attitude and set or set to establish attitude etc).

In addition, you need to explore all the possible failures and how to cope with them. For example, is it linked to an electric trim? If the trim runs away can you overpower it manually or pull a CB to regain control? Practice recovery from unusual attitudes under the hood so that if it does all go awry you stand a good chance of surviving the episode.

Autopilots help a lot, even if it is just the wing leveller that you describe, but you need to be aware of their limitations. There can be a tendency for you to get out of the loop if you don't pay attention, which leads to the 'What's it doing now?' type of scenario.

Don't neglect your hand-flying in IMC, however. The more you do of it, the easier it becomes, and you might find you don't even feel yourself needing the assistance of an autopilot.

[eyeinthesky]

Sorry for the similarity with Alphaalpha's post: it appeared whilst I was still typing mine :cool: .

[Final 3 Greens]

Khorne

I think that your post was quite negative in tone.

If you ask around a few flying clubs, you can usually find an instructor who flies regularly in IMC using autopilots.

They are known as airline pilots and it is surprising how many instruct due to their love of flying.

In the course of gaining their job, they have usually encountered a fair range of autopilots, and are well up to speed on the issues of using them.

[GRP]

>Don't neglect your hand-flying in IMC, however. The more you >do of it, the easier it becomes, and you might find you don't >even feel yourself needing the assistance of an autopilot.

This was the point of the question really. By using the autopilot in IMC you can't help but neglect your hand-flying! I did a fairly long trip a few weeks ago with an instructor - the whole 4 hours was flown by hand in fact with a fair amount of it in IMC. It was great for the confidence but fairly tiring. Had I used the autopilot though it would have been a much easier flight, but I'd have lost the opportunity to get some IMC hand-flying experience. Now, had I been alone or just with non-pilot passengers it would have probably been better all round had I just stuck the autopilot on (I've used it a lot in VMC and have a good idea how it will react - I prefer for example to fly it on track either by hand or just using the heading mode before engaging a NAV mode since you know it isn't going to be making turns when it feels like it. I also scan just as much with it on - not a lot else to do really!)

I guess the crux of the question is - should one use the autopilot generally and polish up on hand-flying skills from time to time in case of an autopilot problem? Or should one hand-fly in general and be ready to switch on the autopilot if a problem arises? I'm just starting to persuade myself from the latter to the former and start using it more often!

[QDMQDMQDM]

I flew on a Beech 1900 twin turboprop, run by a commuter airline in Maine last year. Their aircraft were not even equipped with autopilots as the chief pilot felt they detracted from situational awareness and all that jazz. Admittedly, though, two crew...

QDM

[Romeo Romeo]

I read a book a while ago which said that you should earn the right to put the autopilot on. Fly the first hour by hand then you've probably earned it. There's no point doing it all by hand because then you might end up fatigued when it comet to the hard part of the approach, but you don't want to end up relying on the autopilot to save you bacon - because it might pack up.

[GRP]

That's a very good idea! Quite like that! Best of both worlds.

The reason I came to asking this question was that I was flying on saturday with the family on board. I had to abandon the flight because there was lowish cloud around my departure airport, although I knew it was ok where I was going as I had just driven from that direction 15 minutes earlier. Shortly after take off it became evident that I was not going to get to where I wanted to go without climbing up into the cloud and either getting above it or bursting out into the clear air to the north. With the children on board (for the first time with both of them in there) I decided that discretion was the better part of valour and that we would drive to our destination. The children were quite excited to be in the aeroplane and I didn't want to find that I was being distracted at the same time as trying to concentrate on keeping the aircraft going in the right direction and right-side up!

The owner of the aircraft on hearing this asked why I had not just stuck on the autopilot and carried on climbing - and I've been wondering why myself since! Especially since when I drove it rapidly became evident that the conditions were as forecast and all would have been well!

[M14P]

as the chief pilot felt they detracted from situational awareness

Wow! There's a Chiefy who obviously does not understand what situational awareness is. Actually flying an aircraft is really quite a complex task for the brain to deal with (all give yourself a pat on the back for being clever chaps) and flying whilst using instruments and bouncing around in cloud is even harder. Just because you are steering doesn't mean you are situationally aware, in fact it probably means that you are FAR LESS aware than your monitoring crewmember.

Autopilots can be the biggest help or the biggest hinderence in the cockpit depending on the users understanding of the system (The "What's It Doing Now?" Phenomenon) and the capabilities of the system.

It is not a 'get me out of a sticky situation' tool. An autopilot does not allow you to fly beyond your capabilities it just allows you to use your time more effectively.

I have used very many different autopilots and therefore consider myself reasonably experienced on this matter:

More golden rules,

1. Seek Training
2. Understand the system
3. Treat 'George' as your second (or third) crewmember
4. If it does something that you are not expecting or do not understand TAKE OVER
5. Keep current with system use and integration

If anybody wants any training or advice on the subject I am happy to be contacted by my email

PS - GRP, I like you decision better than the owner's. The owner is suggesting that whilst he may not be capable of flying in cloud the AP is. That is a potential fatal reversal of priorities.

[Julian]

I have asked the same question of a few people (and from personal experience!) and the answer is almost always the same - yeah use it but keep an eye on it!

They do tend to do their own thing sometimes, a friend and I did a night flight back from Scotsdale, Arizona across the desert to Longbeach, California - not IMC but with no visual references it may as well be (if you have never done a lfight across a desert everyone should do - completely black! strange!!). We were using the AP on the long legs when we realise that it had gone into a shallow descent. The AP was doing nothing to correct this, we ended up disconnecting and retrimming the aircraft - after that we kept a close eye on it.

[Leclairage]

Hi GRP,
Catching up on an old post of yours here, but I am in a similar position....what say you we practise together? Your ship or mine?

[FlyingForFun]

I missed out on this thread last time round, probably because I didn't have an IR or IMC rating then. I do now, though, so here are my thoughts:

First of all, I would guess that asking an airline pilots what he does at work, as F3G suggested, might not be the best idea. Airline pilots fly on a very regular basis, and have more regular checks than IMC pilots. They are extremely current. Depending on the airline, they might well have the autopilot on for pretty much the whole flight - but they are current enough that they still retain the hand-flying skills (although haven spoken to some airline pilots about their colleagues - it's never them, always their colleauges! - maybe that's not actually the case!)

An autopilot achieves two things: it relieves the boredom of flying S+L on instruments for long periods, and it relieves the workload during the approach and the depature.

For the S+L segment, I say use the autopilot. It doesn't take a huge amount of practice to fly S+L and follow a VOR, but it is very tedious and therefore tiring, so get the autopilot to do it for you.

For approach and depature it's not so clear, because this is where occasional IMC flyers, IMHO, will very quickly loose currency if they always use the autopilot. Also (and this may not apply for a simple one-axis autopilot), if you never use the autopilot, you may find that you are not proficient in its use. When I first started flying an aircraft with a decent autopilot, I always used to hand-fly the depature up to cruising level, but after I while I'd discovered that I'd forgotten how to set a target altitude in the autopilot - not forgotten to the point that I couldn't do it, but it took a bit of mental capacity to remember.

I eventually settled on the following: on the basis that most IFR flights are going to be there-and-back, on the way there I would hand-fly the depature and use the autopilot for the arrival, and on the way back I would reverse it. Of course things never go to plan, and you will always find that when you plan to hand-fly an approach, you'll get to your destination, find it's CAVOK and end up doing a visual approach, so you need to be flexible to keep current at both methods.

Of course your experiences may well be different to mine!

FFF
------------

[IO540]

I tend to agree. Most private pilots don't get enough practice in IMC, including myself (and I do ~ 150hrs/year) so hand flying procedures is desirable.

However, the AP is there to reduce cockpit workload and that is the #1 safety feature in flying. I bet most pilots who made a fatal error would not have made it if they were not under pressure. Reading airliner accident reports makes that much clear. So many really stupid errors.

So if I was flying a very busy procedure I would go back to using the AP, including flying the ILS with it, to minima. Of course, one needs to practice how to do that too (fly an ILS with the AP), occassionally.

On long trips one spends most of one's time in VMC and a monkey can fly a plane in VMC, so then I use the AP 100%, disengaging it for the last 20-30nm of a VFR flight.

[DRJAD]

Interesting thoguhts.
To my mind, provided one is in current and fluent practice in IMC, then using the autopilot, even if single axis, is a good plan for phases of flight which are assisted by the equipment.
The reason for this is obvious - it is the diminution of effort which arises because the autopilot takes some of the workload.
However, what it does NOT remove from the pilot is the responsibility to maintain the monitoring (scan) of instruments in order to achieve the planned flight and to recognise abnormal situations.

[IO540]

However, what it does NOT remove from the pilot is the responsibility to maintain the monitoring (scan) of instruments in order to achieve the planned flight and to recognise abnormal situations.

You sound like a CAA "safety" sense leaflet :O

The use of an AP does exactly that: it frees up the pilot to keep an eye on everything, inside and outside. A pilot who is using an AP is much more likely to spot something going wrong.

[DRJAD]

Hmm, its just the way I speak and write!

What I meant is encapsulated in your comment, IO540.

[flybymike]

For anyone who reads Richard Collins articles in the American "Flying" magazine (one of my mentors) He recently stated that the FAA who hitherto had always advised immediate disconnection of the autopilot in the event of loss of control in IMC, have now changed their official viewpoint to state that where an autopilot is fitted it should be the first line of defence, and promptly switched on...not off in such circumstances

[Say again s l o w l y]

Some very good points here.

In my last company we had a mixed fleet, some a/c had autopilots fitted but most didn't (or were U/S).
When you found yourself with a machine with a serviceable one, it was a cause for celebration. Hand flying isn't difficult, but for long straight and level sectors it became very tiring and boring. Having a good autopilot for us helped free up the non-handling pilot whilst the PF could monitor what the box of tricks was up to.

I personally don't like flying single crew I/R without a serviceable "George." If you understand it's limitations and how to use it properly, then they can be life savers, especially when the workload gets high. Your situational awareness is always helped by its use, since your brain has some extra capacity (though if you are experienced, the difference can be negligable compared to someone starting out).

I always like to start handflying again before the approach phase, so that I could get myself "back into it" before the most critical phase, though we obviously sometimes used it for the approach aswell, though generally not when conditions were bumpy as most old or basic autopilots tend to give up just when you need them!

If you find yourself starting to lose it in IMC, an AP can be a great help, just make sure you know when it will engage and what makes it trip out and where the disconnect button is incase it does something unexpected. (Usually a pilot problem rather than an AP problem though!)

[Final 3 Greens]

First of all, I would guess that asking an airline pilots what he does at work, as F3G suggested, might not be the best idea

That's not what I suggested, please read my post again.

Many airline pilots are familiar with simple autopilots from their light aircraft experience and are in a good position to highlight the pros and cons.

[DFC]

Until one is proficient in using the autopilot it actually increases the workload.

Best to get some practice in with an instructor before using it for real in IMC.

As for not using a simple autopilot in order to retain flying skills. I would not worry. For a simple 1 axis autopilot, the pilot still has to manage the other 2 axis as well as the navigation of the aircraft. Any proficient pilot will be able to trim out an aircraft with no autopilot and fly hands off for long periods in IMC be it climbing, descending or straight and level.

It's not about flexing muscles to control the aircraft. IMC flying is all about management of the siutation and keeping one's mind well ahead of the aircraft.

If you are dealing with a full 3 axix autopilot with altitude capture, vertical speed modes and coupled navigation and approach facilities then I would agree that long periods without some hand flying would reduce motor skills. However, the mental skills which account for a big percentage of IMC operations would be stil up to speed provided that the autopilot was not being used as a crutch to support a person who lacks the basic skills to start with.

Pilots who use RANT on a regular basis will have better situational awareness regarding procedural flying than many others who do lots of aircraft flying. The reason is that RANT allows more brain time to think about what is going on. With practice many issues become almost automatic and that releases more thinking time for other things like flying the aircraft. An example of a device that is not even in the aircraft that regular use helps not hinders IMC flying.

To sumaraise; Get training from an instructor and with thorough knowledge of the system and it's legal as well as operational limitations make the most of it.

Regards,

DFC

[IO540]

A few points:

GA autopilots do not have redundancy, and most have poor error detection, and they can and do fail. I've had many autopilot failures, and this is the most modern Honeywell KFC225 type. So while an AP is a great safety aid (through workload reduction) one does need to keep an eye on it, and know where to disconnect it. The red button is not enough: I've had one failure where the red button didn't disconnect, and one needs to know where the AP master switch is, and/or the servo circuit breakers.

If one has a flight director then one can use the AP for that even if the servos are burnt out.

Most PPL-level instructors are clueless about autopilots and most other forms of "advanced" avionics. One is just as likely to be told a load of bull. So one needs to choose the instructor carefully. All will speak with confidence, but only some know this highly type specific stuff.

Whether an AP should be engaged upon loss of control in IMC is debatable. I'd like to see a reference for the FAA guidance reported - it must be type specific. An instrument pilot must know how to do (partial panel and full panel) unusual attitude recovery in IMC. If one's vac pump goes, and you have a vac horizon, and the AP happens to work off that, then engaging the AP will do no good. You have to recover manually, and will be doing it partial panel too. That's why one must understand the particular installation. Also any modern AP will auto disconnect of bank or pitch values exceed X degrees, say 20 or 30, and will thus disconnect in serious turbulence.

One should use an AP all the time conditions of actual or potential heavy workload. Always engage it if you have too much to do. Then you won't get into a loss of control situation in the first place.

[flybymike]

All good stuff IO540. Perhaps a few ILAAFFT autopilot incidents might not go amiss.

1. After several years of using a fully coupled attitude based 3 axis A/P with altitude hold and capture ( separate Yaw damper) and automatic trim, I converted to a rate based 2 axis unit, again with altitude hold but no auto trim. In the cruise with the A/P having been engaged for some time, I decided it was time to descend, only for some obscure reason ( I think because the trim wheel was not periodically moving and thus giving me a constant reminder that the A/P was engaged) I forgot that it was indeed actually engaged and reduced power for the descent. I was surprised when instead of the nose dropping, it remained pegged to the horixon (altitude hold engaged) I therefore attempted to move the stick forward and found to my horror it was apparently "Locked." This was followed by winding in a fair dose of forward trim and a further power reduction in order to encourage a descent. Still the nose remained pegged on the horizon and airspeed began to fall rapidly. Realisation suddenly dawned and (ignoring the trim warning lights) I instinctively switched off the A/P resulting in an immediate severe bunt nose down which pitched myself and the front seat passenger up to the ceiling. Fortunately the event occurred in good VMC and immediate manual recovery was instinctive and uneventful. One only needs to imagine a reverse scenario however, where an attempt to climb preceded by a power increase, a tug on the stick, a large dose of aft trim and immediate A/p disengagement would result in a pitch up stall spin scenario which in IMC would have obvious repercussions. Lesson learned, Know your A/P inside out, read the operating manual, understand what mode it is in and avoid the "whats it doing now" situation.

2. Flying R/H seat with another (experienced) pilot in the left hand seat we reached 200 feet on the climb out when he announced that "Strange forces" were acting on the ailerons. I took the stick and immediately realised we had taken off with the A/P engaged. After a quick check of the engagement mode I disconnected and the flight continued uneventfully. The implications were obvious however. a) An unsatisfactory pre flight check had been carried out with failure to notice the A/P already engaged. b) Had the previous pilot actually therefore landed with the A/P engaged? (Far from unknown-imagine battling a cross wind landing against an engaged A/P and yaw damper) c) If altitude hold had been engaged, an attempted takeoff with the pilot commanding a climb against an A/P resolutely determined to maintain runway elevation poses an interesting end of runway situation.

3. Most A/P's have a test or self test facilty which together with an operational check must be carried out prior to departure. First time engagement of the A/P in the air without a ground test first is not a good idea and can result in some A/P's inducing some very dramatic attitude excursions in the air!

As others have said it is not usually the A/p which is the problem, It's the pilot!

[DFC]

3. Most A/P's have a test or self test facilty which together with an operational check must be carried out prior to departure. First time engagement of the A/P in the air without a ground test first is not a good idea and can result in some A/P's inducing some very dramatic attitude excursions in the air!
As others have said it is not usually the A/p which is the problem, It's the pilot!

True indeed and most GA autopilots are relatively easy to overpower. This again is checked as per the operating manual eg when the autopilot is set to command a left roll, the pilot ensures that a right roll can be executed against the autopilot without a need for excessive force. Generaly autopilots that control the elevator electric trim system trim are set so that the trim circuit breaker will pop with a runaway trim. This should happen in the case of at least one system when the out of trim forces are about 15Lb. Not a great force to overcome but one which as said above could catch one unawares if the autopilot was disconnected while not holding on to the controls and not properly strapped in.

Reminds me of the story about the pimply computer whizz first officer and the crusty old Captain in the new Airbus some years back. First officer operates the sector totally by jabbing away at the flight management system until at top of descent the aircraft does not descend! Much trashing of keys and a shocked statement of "It's not descending Captain" resulted in the Captain leaning forward and pushing the yoke towards the pannel. "It's descending now son isn't it!" :D

Regards,

DFC

[Johnm]

I have been a regular autopilot user in both VMC and IMC conditions, the key is to continue to pay attention to what's going on. You are still the pilot not a passenger being flown by a piece of kit:eek:

I've flown both altitude hold and none and my current aircraft has essentially the wing leveller.

My wing leveller can also follow the heading bug and do VOR tracking and approach interception unfortunately it's got the dreaded wing rock at present so it's not useable in IMC and there's no doubt that keeping up without it is bl**dy hard work in IMC:mad:

[White Bear]

A little off subject perhaps but, my aircraft is equipped with a 3 axis A/P. When I first bought it and was doing ‘differences’ training, my instructor covered the use of the A/P. As I am not IR rated, he told me “If you inadvertently enter IMC turn this thing on, use it to do a 180, and get back to clear air”.

I just read an article about inadvertent entry into IMC. It said they tested 10 none IMC rated pilots suddenly entering IMC conditions. The average time to loss of control was 170 seconds! None lasted longer than 8 minutes. They advised to always properly trim the aircraft so it will fly S & L ‘hands off’, if you do inadvertently enter IMC, let go of the control column, and if you have an A/P engage it and use it to get back to clear air. If you don’t have an A/P use the rudder only to turn the aircraft. The article also stated 40% of fatal accidents involved loss of situational awareness as the prime reason, or a contributing reason to the accident.
Seems to me it’s a piece of equipment that, properly managed, can save your life as well make it easier on those long flights.
Regards,
W.B.

[DRJAD]

... the key is to continue to pay attention to what's going on. You are still the pilot not a passenger being flown by a piece of kit.

Exactly what I meant - but I expressed it badly!

White Bear's comment seems v. well worth while to convey to non-instrument qualified pilots? Many will fly aircraft with some sort of A/P.

[IO540]

This is digressing a bit, but I too have read the various "studies" (mostly in the USA) about how long non-instrument pilots take to die in IMC. I read with incredulity about how fast pilots with 2000 hours TT lose control the moment they enter IMC. They must have spent their entire life flying circuits in Arizona! As someone who started instrument training very early on, I just don't get this; getting enough training to be able to fly a heading in IMC is no rocket science; you can teach someone to do it adequately in an hour or two. Once, I had a passenger friend who never flew a plane before, doing that much after about 10 mins' training. The other 98% of instrument flight training is all the procedures, doing a heavy radio workload at the same time, partial panel, etc. but you don't need to know that stuff to stop yourself getting killed. Unfortunately, PPL training does just the 180 in IMC and everywhere we are told to be sh*t scared. I think this is counterproductive, but I suppose that the moment they expanded IMC training within the PPL some traditionalist old fart will stand up and say the stuff should not be taught unless it is taught "properly"....

Back to autopilots, it's an unfortunate fact that post people reading this will have only ever seen ones that (at best) are placarded INOP and (at worst) are duff and go out of control as soon as you switch them on. They are expensive bits of kit and the first thing most renting establishments do when they get a problem is to pull the circuit breaker and forget about it. "The plane is for VFR training after all". In my 2 years of training/renting I saw a number of autopilots and not one of them worked. Keeping a plane with decent avionics, all working, is a serious financial commitment.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Having trained alot of non instrument rated pilots for IMC's and IR's, the comments about people losing control rapidly are unfortunately borne out by my experience.

The very limited amount of training given in a PPL syllabus in no way adequately equips someone for real and inadvertant flight into IMC conditions. Generally most people do tend to "lose it" in a relatively short time, even when sitting next to me as a safety net. Now imagine it for real, with all the stresses involved and I can well imagine loss of control happening pretty sharpishly for the "average PPL".

IO, remember there are very few PPL's in Europe with even 1/10th of the 2000hrs you quote.

If you want proof of losing it in IMC, just look at what happened to JFK jr.

[GK430]

I'm generally in agreement, but what do you do when autopilot engaged and the ride gets rough in IMC. Do you disengage and handfly? Always seems to occur in the descent phase when workload is on the increase.

[IO540]

The normal procedure for flight in moderate or worse turbulence is

1) set speed to Va or less

2) maintain wings level / maintain heading

3) maintain angle of attack (or pitch attitude if you like) and accept any altitude fluctuations

One can do the above with most modern autopilots (provided it has not disconnected as a result of the turbulence); what one should not do is fly in altitude hold mode because that will create extra stress on the airframe.

Same procedure if flying without an autopilot.

SAS, I don't disagree with you. I just think that things could be improved. As regards JFK JR, doesn't that lead to an argument that there should be no night flight without an instrument capability? I doubt he knowingly embarked on a flight into known IMC, but it's easily done at night.